Ten signs someone is a fundamentalist christian

Winters

Taken from here. It gave me a good giggle reading through

10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."


3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

Dades

I was wondering if this was going to contravene the charter (ridiculing of a faith) but to be fair it is simply a list of perfectly valid observations.

Did God really order the elimination of certain trees?!

robindch

Well, at one point, Jesus had a hissy fit at a figless fig tree -- I suppose that's it? BTW, that was just before telling everybody that if you believed enough stuff, you could tell a mountain go jump into the sea. Bizarre.

Winters

The Atheist wrote:

I was wondering if this was going to contravene the charter (ridiculing of a faith) but to be fair it is simply a list of perfectly valid observations.!

Yea, I wondered how close I was to it


Tbh, a lot of them; like numbers 10, 2 and 1, can apply to most religions.

PDN

I'm disappointed. There I was thinking I'm a fundamentalist and yet none of the 10 signs are true of me.

BTW, I don't think there's much danger of falling foul of the charter. It's a bit like the law that says a driver on a provisional license must be accompanied by a qualified driver.

Dades

PDN wrote:

BTW, I don't think there's much danger of falling foul of the charter. It's a bit like the law that says a driver on a provisional license must be accompanied by a qualified driver.

I take it you think it's not enforced? Perhaps things are let go sometimes for the better of free speech I hope.

Of course if you ever think someone has crossed the line you can PM me or Asiaprod.

philologos

I don't fall into any of those categories either

Fallen Seraph

Well then you couldn't possibly be a fundamentalist christian then; because as a scientific atheist I know that this scientifically compiled list cannot be be wrong and I know that science can describe every aspect of human existance

unkel

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering

My cousin seemed to honestly believe that. Even when I pointed out that his particular religious group was a very small minority within mankind. I was 9 years old at the time we had this discussion and I've been an atheist ever since

stevejazzx

list wrote:

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

Seems pretty extreme when phrased like this but it's true. Reminds me how the world feels now about fundamnetalist muslims yet here we are now, a race of christians dogmatically preserving our own (false?)history of fundamentalism. How perverted is that?

Zombrex

PDN wrote:

I'm disappointed. There I was thinking I'm a fundamentalist and yet none of the 10 signs are true of me.

Jakkass wrote:

I don't fall into any of those categories either

I think you both fall into at least one or two

4 for example

subway

Winters wrote:

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God

better succes rate than i would have expected,
i guess there must be something to this praying lark after all...

stevejazzx

subway wrote:

better succes rate than i would have expected,
i guess there must be something to this praying lark after all...

Yes, it's called statistical probability

PDN

Wicknight wrote:

I think you both fall into at least one or two

4 for example

Afraid not, I wouldn't dream of arguing that 'rival sects' that share my beliefs are going to hell. As usual, when atheists want to attack Christians they can't help over-egging the pudding.

Zillah

Please do not make statements as to what "atheists" do or will do. The only statement that fairly applies to atheists as a group is "Those who have no belief in God". I assure you, I'm perfectly capable of attacking Christians without resorting to exaggeration or strawmen.

rockbeer

PDN wrote:

Afraid not, I wouldn't dream of arguing that 'rival sects' that share my beliefs are going to hell.

But the rest of us are, right?

PDN

rockbeer wrote:

But the rest of us are, right?

At last we agree on something!

PDN

Zillah wrote:

Please do not make statements as to what "atheists" do or will do. The only statement that fairly applies to atheists as a group is "Those who have no belief in God". I assure you, I'm perfectly capable of attacking Christians without resorting to exaggeration or strawmen.

How refreshing it is, in this PC obsessed age, to find someone who still boasts about his ability to attack those with whom he disagrees.

stevejazzx

PDN wrote:

How refreshing it is, in this PC obsessed age, to find someone who still boasts about his ability to attack those with whom he disagrees.

PDN, I have to say well done. Theres not many who hold their own here. Your making a good job of it and putting acrosss a decent view of christianity aswell. I am of course an ardent atheist but I am also genuinely pleased to see a christian fighting his/her corner for once instead of dismising the whole thing and returning ot the christianity forum, bruised, battered and bewilered. Keep up the good fighting and the bewithching aphorisms.....

rockbeer

PDN wrote:

At last we agree on something!

Maybe I'll see you there then

Zombrex

PDN wrote:

Afraid not, I wouldn't dream of arguing that 'rival sects' that share my beliefs are going to hell. As usual, when atheists want to attack Christians they can't help over-egging the pudding.

Er...

I've had long conversations with you about some "Christians" who claim to be "Christians" aren't really "Christians" Are you saying that these people who aren't really "Christians" in your opinion, despite their claims to the contrary, are actually saved and going to heaven? I doubt it.

I also seem to remember you saying that to you a real Christian is someone who has been born again, touched by Jesus. Without that experience one is not really a "Christian" That would exclude most Christians I know.

Do they not end up in hell?

The point of number 4 in the list is that a fundamentalists will often hold quite well defined ideas of who is saved and more importantly who is going to hell, and this will extend down to not just the religion itself as a group, but to those in the religion.

I know you hold these views because you say you do.

PDN

rockbeer wrote:

Maybe I'll see you there then

Ah, yes, anything is possible, of course.

I wonder who would be the more surprised? You, to discover that a God who doesn't exist has sent you to a hell that doesn't exist, or me, to find that my Get Out of Jail Free card didn't work after all?

PDN

Wicknight wrote:

Er, I've had long conversations with you about some "Christians" who claim to be "Christians" aren't really "Christians" ... are you saying that these people who aren't really "Christians" despite claims to the contrary are actually saved and going to heaven? I also seem to remember you saying that to you a real Christian is someone who has been born again, touched by Jesus. That would exclude most Christians I know. Do they not end up in hell?

Looks like we're back to exegesis again, doesn't it? Let's exegete a couple of statements.

Can I remind you of what #4 actually said?:

You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."

This, then, is what I said:

I wouldn't dream of arguing that 'rival sects' that share my beliefs are going to hell.

If someone doesn't share my belief that "a real Christian is someone who has been born again, touched by Jesus" then they are not covered by #4 or by my statement, are they? Since I understand that approximately 1 billion of the world's population claim to share my beliefs and to be 'born again', and since my particular 'sect' has only 7 million members, this then leaves about 993 million people who belong to 'rival sects' but share my beliefs and so are, IMHO opinion, on their way to heaven.

rockbeer

PDN wrote:

I wonder who would be the more surprised? You, to discover that a God who doesn't exist has sent you to a hell that doesn't exist, or me, to find that my Get Out of Jail Free card didn't work after all?

Indeed. But sadly one of the most annoying things about the non-existence of an afterlife is that I won' t get the chance to say I told you so

Dades

Zillah wrote:

Please do not make statements as to what "atheists" do or will do. The only statement that fairly applies to atheists as a group is "Those who have no belief in God".

I suspect PDN was not trying to redefine the term in toto. I'd imagine his point was directed toward the atheists he has argued with here, or perhaps elsewhere.

Zombrex

PDN wrote:

Since I understand that approximately 1 billion of the world's population claim to share my beliefs and to be 'born again'

The majority of Christians do not claim to be "born again" in the sense that you mean it here, the evangelical sense

For example Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox associate being "born again" with baptisim, which most often happens when a person is a new born baby.

In these cases a personal choice to love Jesus, or any form of conversion experience, has nothing to do with it since the person is a child, but they are still born again in th eyes of God and still "saved". They might never communicated with God again, and in some cases any such claims to communicate with God would be considered strange and even heresy by the rest of the religion.

Judging by previous posts you have objections to this as meaning someone has been born again or meaning they have accepted Jesus and are saved.

You also seem to be stating that the 1 billion Christians who say they are Christians actually are Christian, which again I've had discussions with you where you expressed the opposite view, that while someone can claim to be a Christian that doesn't make them one in your mind, they must be a Christian as defined by above. Simply claiming to be a Christian is irrelevant.

Zombrex

Re-read my post, and it comes across as rather argumentative. I mean it more in a puzzled way () than an argumentative way.

I'm not saying you are wrong PDN (there is after all no right or wrong), I just don't really understand where you are coming from. Some times you seem quite happy to say that most Christians aren't real Christians (normal when an atheists is saying "Look at what Christianity has done!"), and others you thing of the religion as a whole unified (saved) entity.

As my great uncle Huggy Bear would say, whats the deal'e'o?

PDN

Wicknight wrote:

The majority of Christians do not claim to be "born again" in the sense that you mean it here, the evangelical sense

For example Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox associate being "born again" with baptisim, which most often happens when a person is a new born baby.

In these cases a personal choice to love Jesus, or any form of conversion experience, has nothing to do with it since the person is a child, but they are still born again in th eyes of God and still "saved". They might never communicated with God again, and in some cases any such claims to communicate with God would be considered strange and even heresy by the rest of the religion.

Judging by previous posts you have objections to this as meaning someone has been born again or meaning they have accepted Jesus and are saved.

You also seem to be stating that the 1 billion Christians who say they are Christians actually are Christian, which again I've had discussions with you where you expressed the opposite view, that while someone can claim to be a Christian that doesn't make them one in your mind, they must be a Christian as defined by above. Simply claiming to be a Christian is irrelevant.

OK, I don't see what there is to be confused about, so let's go over it again.

If you count your wider definition of 'Christian' (those people who happen to be born into a family that has a church affiliation) then the figure would be well in excess of 2.2 billion. However, as you have stated, I would not see many of these as being really Christians since their affiliation is more cultural than anything to do with faith.

Worldwide there are about 600 million Pentecostal/Charismatic believers who claim a born-again experience, speak in tongues and believe in miracles. (These actually include millions of Catholics who belong to the Catholic Charismatic renewal movement). Obviously I would count them among those who share my core beliefs, even though we would disagree over a lot of minor points of doctrine and practice.

Then you have anywhere from 300-400 million believers who are non-Pentecostal evangelicals. These would include Baptists, Methodists, Adventists, most Anglicans outside of Europe & North America, many Catholics who sincerely have a personal relationship with Christ etc. Again, all these people would claim to be born again and to have a personal experience of Jesus Christ.

(My statistics may be out by a few tens of millions on one side or the other as precision is difficult, particularly when dealing with cases like China where most Christians are unregistered).

So, the following facts are all true and non-contradictory:
1. The majority of the world's 2.2 nominal Christians do not claim to be born again.

2. PDN does not believe that simply being a nominal Christian constitutes true Christianity. Instead he believes that a true Christian is one who has made a personal commitment of faith to Christ, thus being saved.

3. A large minority of nominal Christians (approx. 1 billion) do profess to having made a personal commitment of faith to Christ. While some of these may be hypocrites, PDN would see no reason not to accept that most of these people are genuine believers.

4. PDN's little 'sect' only has 7 million members worldwide.

5. That leaves 900 million or so Christians who, while not belonging to PDN's denomination, claim a personal faith experience in Christ, share PDN's core beliefs, and are (in his very subjective opinion) going to heaven.

Now, what's confusing about that?

PDN

The Atheist wrote:

I suspect PDN was not trying to redefine the term in toto. I'd imagine his point was directed toward the atheists he has argued with here, or perhaps elsewhere.

All atheists, at all times, make sweeping generalisations. No theist, ever, under any circumstances, stoops to sweeping generalisations.

Zombrex

PDN wrote:

However, as you have stated, I would not see many of these as being really Christians since their affiliation is more cultural than anything to do with faith.

Ok, so are these Christians going to hell?

PDN wrote:

Now, what's confusing about that?

The confusing bit is that by your own admission there are a large number of people who call themselves "Christian" who you seem to believe are going to hell, yet for some reason you still don't think you fit into 4. Do you not consider these people in a different sect or denomination simply because you don't consider them Christian in the first place?

I think you are missing the point that it doesn't really matter if you consider them Christians or not. They consider themselves Christian and probably consider themselves totally saved. You disagree.

PDN

Wicknight wrote:

The confusing bit is that by your own admission there are a large number of people who call themselves "Christian" who you seem to believe are going to hell, yet for some reason you still don't think you fit into 4.

I think you are missing the point that it doesn't really matter if you consider them Christians or not. They consider themselves Christian and probably consider themselves totally saved. You disagree.

Sigh, let's quote number 4 again:

You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."

Only those who believe in being born again "share my beliefs". I do not believe that those in 'rival sects' who share my beliefs are going to hell. therefore #4 doesn't apply to me.

It's very simple really.

Incidentally, it is perfectly possible to believe that other people are going to hell and still be tolerant and loving. But then again, the writer of the piece quoted in the OP was obviously more interested in rhetoric than in logic.