Liverpool Signings and General Rumours Thread

p.pete

Pretty good article relating to the strike options Crouch now gives us (link)

emc2

meditraitor wrote:

What it didnt show was who he scored against in the PL last season
scored at least 2 against Bolton(maybe 3, not sure)
2 against middlesborough
against everton
against Crystal palace
against arsenal

and against us

These (as far as I recall ) are teams that gave us more trouble(*arsen) than they should have, if he can belt them in against this type of opposition, that ill dooooo nicelly

I agree with this, he'll score on the cold wet winter evenings in portsmouth or places like that when the spanish boys aren't feeling up to it.

StickyMcGinty

p.pete, another great tomkins article, makes a lot of good points!

well worth a read lads...

stevoslice

so crouch gets no. 15, previously worn by Salif 'The Horse' Diao. has he been sold?

p.pete

I don't believe he's been sold yet, he was returned to us as far as I know (which don't count for much). By the sounds of that he wasn't handed out a squad number though...

tel922001

Too be honest boyz i was a little reluctant to have crouch comming in , but maybe benitez will get the best out of him feed him with the high ball might come out trumps , alonso will feed him all day like a kid with sweets , i kow hes not world class or anything but feck it lets give him a chance and if he comes out on top , you will have to hold ur hand up to benitez and just wonder what he does to get his players to play like that

el rabitos

i think most peoples (and my own) objections to the crouch signing is directly linked to the fact that he's costing 7 million and its 7 million not spent on a central defender, something that we need fairly badly at this stage.

i dread to see what would happen if carragher picked up a 6 month long injury.

cruiserweight

I am sure a CB will be coming in soon. One thing that Crouch does is he adds to Liverpools options. It could be argued that Zenden (for example) is not the best player in the world, but he is a good player and adds to our options. With those two players in the squad we should finish higher up the table with more points.

Although we need a CB, the games that were lost against the so called lower ranked teams last year were because we did not score, not because we did not defend!

~Rebel~

I agree with cruiserweight, i very much doubt Benitez is spending any of his CB fund on anyone else. A CB will come in and money has definately been put aside for it, he's just looking around and being patient to make sure we get the right man. I do think 7mill is horrendously overpriced, but then again, if Rafa gets all his targets within his budget, who are we to complain. Be it Gallas (my favourite personally) Upson or Milito, a quality longterm CB will be arriving.

I would like Cisse and El Moro to be the first choice pairing with crouch getting the odd game (mostly away id imagine) and a lot of sub appearances. Dont think i want him to be in our regular starting lineup as it pretty much rules out attractive football and points to route 1 methods. Definately a very interesting option to have, even if we were robbed in the transfer!

BolBill

cruiserweight wrote:

I am sure a CB will be coming in soon. One thing that Crouch does is he adds to Liverpools options. It could be argued that Zenden (for example) is not the best player in the world, but he is a good player and adds to our options. With those two players in the squad we should finish higher up the table with more points.

Although we need a CB, the games that were lost against the so called lower ranked teams last year were because we did not score, not because we did not defend!

Its a sad day for Liverpool, maybe Crouch (Timmy from Southpark) has been bought to cut down on the need for scaffolding when building begins on the new stadium.

Also, sorry mate but Bolo (all four letters appear in Bollo*) is sh*t, looked good at Boro but then again I'd look good there.

midget lord

BolBill wrote:

Its a sad day for Liverpool, maybe Crouch (Timmy from Southpark) has been bought to cut down on the need for scaffolding when building begins on the new stadium.

Also, sorry mate but Bolo (all four letters appear in Bollo*) is sh*t, looked good at Boro but then again I'd look good there.

How much of Crouch and Zenden have you seen to be in the position to evaluate?

Jivin Turkey

BolBill wrote:

Also, sorry mate but Bolo (all four letters appear in Bollo*) is sh*t, looked good at Boro but then again I'd look good there.

Are we talking about the same Middlesboro side that finished a staggering three points behind our mightly Liverpool last year?

redspider

el rabitos wrote:

i think most peoples (and my own) objections to the crouch signing is directly linked to the fact that he's costing 7 million and its 7 million not spent on a central defender, something that we need fairly badly at this stage. i dread to see what would happen if carragher picked up a 6 month long injury.

I agree completely. A CB buy had more priority over another striker, and whilst Crouch may give us more options, its at the other end that Liverpool have lost the away games in all honesty. What with Henchoz sold (he went off anyway), Diao on the sales list, a good CB if he was cultivated properly, Hyppia short for pace, Liverpool have a severe shortage at the back, and now too many mediocrre forwards as far as I can see. Traore would do his shar at CB if asked, but that is not a good position for him, or perhaps any position.

I am not happy with Cisse, I am not happy with Morientes, I am not happy with Garcia, nor Baros. Le Tallec, who I thought had been completely off the starting list for Benitez at the end of last season, is now back in the fray. But overall, we dont have a central backbone or starting-11 that picks itself. Its ok having options, strong options, but Liverpool will at times this season be picking from a position of weakness, not player strength.

If Carra does get injured, it would spell trouble.

redspider

Jivin Turkey

redspider wrote:

I agree completely. A CB buy had more priority over another striker, and whilst Crouch may give us more options, its at the other end that Liverpool have lost the away games in all honesty. What with Henchoz sold (he went off anyway), Diao on the sales list, a good CB if he was cultivated properly, Hyppia short for pace, Liverpool have a severe shortage at the back, and now too many mediocrre forwards as far as I can see. Traore would do his shar at CB if asked, but that is not a good position for him, or perhaps any position.

Benetiz has indicated that another defender will arrive. The transfer window is not yet closed. He has secured the next one of his targets, so now he is going on to the next one, most probably a defender, or even two. Dont even waste your breath criticising his signings until they are complete.

redspider wrote:

I am not happy with Cisse, I am not happy with Morientes

These two lads have had less than a season between them off football to prove themselves. It is ridiculous to write them off as of yet.

redspider wrote:

I am not happy with Garcia, nor Baros. Le Tallec, who I thought had been completely off the starting list for Benitez at the end of last season, is now back in the fray.

Garcia was frustrating at times last year. But his goal tally speaks for itself. He is a player that will definitely be more accustomed to the English game this year and will only improve.

Im not Baros's or LeTallec's biggest fan so I wont argue there.

redspider wrote:

we dont have a central backbone or starting-11 that picks itself

7 players are garaunteed to start every game.

Reina
Finnan
Carragher
Hyypia (or whoever comes in)
Riise
Alonso
Gerrard
Garcia

I would also wager that a fit Morientes will start every game.

redspider wrote:

Its ok having options, strong options, but Liverpool will at times this season be picking from a position of weakness, not player strength.

That leaves out options list as, Hamann, Zenden, Crouch, Cisse, Baros (at the moment), Kewell, Le Tallec. Thats not too bad if you ask me.

el rabitos

Benetiz has indicated that another defender will arrive. The transfer window is not yet closed. He has secured the next one of his targets, so now he is going on to the next one, most probably a defender, or even two. Dont even waste your breath criticising his signings until they are complete.

having cisse, baros, morientes, mellor, pongolle already in the squad there was no great urgency for another striker, certainly not one that is overpriced, taking into account what investment is needed in the defence.

when you have the so many strikers already, the old phrase "a good offence starts with a good defence" would seem to apply.

we all know rafa will sign one or two defenders, but i personally would be happier knowing that there was another 7 million still there to add onto the amount put aside for the defence.

theres no point in having great options up front and a big hole in the back....how long into a match would it be before a chelsea or arsenal or man utd ripped appart a pairing of zak whitbread and sami hyypia?

Chucky the tree

redspider wrote:

I am not happy , nor Baros.



redspider

eh a few pages back, where you not going on about how Baros has great potential and should be given a chance instead of signing crouch?

PHB

To all the people saying Liverpools defense needs strengthening, could I ask you who out of the back 4 would you replace?

Chucky the tree

el rabitos wrote:

having cisse, baros, morientes, mellor, pongolle already in the squad there was no great urgency for another striker, certainly not one that is overpriced, taking into account what investment is needed in the defence.

?

mellors isnt good enough, on his way out soon. Pongolle is not good enough as a striker aswell. Baros is a muppet.

that leaves Cisse and morientes, i am still not sure about cisse best position. Striker or try him on the left. We needed another striker, crouch wouldnt of been my first choice. BUt i aint going to slate him until he has been given a bit of a run in the team.

uberwolf

PHB wrote:

To all the people saying Liverpools defense needs strengthening, could I ask you who out of the back 4 would you replace?

hyypia and traore were both exposed often season just gone, in certain games they were far from ideal for the men they had coming at them

Chucky the tree

PHB wrote:

To all the people saying Liverpools defense needs strengthening, could I ask you who out of the back 4 would you replace?

hyypia. Hes getting old. If him or carra get a lentghy injury thats leaves djimi traore as cover. Doesnt excactly inspire confidence.


Maybe a LB next season, see how risse gets on. RB is fine.

PHB

Riise is first choice left back, so its another CB needed?

Reina GK - Fine(I think)
Finnan RB - Fine
Riise LB- Fine
Carragher CB - Great
Hypia - Below standerd(needs replacing)
DM - Gerrard/Alonso(great)
They do not need to strength their defense hugely, its up front where they lack.

I honastly don't think one of the left/right wingers or the forward men are good enough. I think Garcia is the only player close to the quality required for the style of play Benetiz will want to play, which is of course the fun fun fun 4-5-1.
In that system, you need magic men to make it work.
Chelsea have them in Lampard/Robben/Duff
Man United have them in Scholes/Ronaldo/Rooney
Liverpool do not have them at all, with Garcia being the closest, as he can create goals from nothing.
I think Liverpool showed in the CL that they could defend and defend well, its up front where they have been lacking.

Chucky the tree

PHB wrote:

Riise is first choice left back, so its another CB needed?

Reina GK - Fine(I think)
Finnan RB - Fine
Riise LB- Fine
Carragher CB - Great
Hypia - Below standerd(needs replacing)
DM - Gerrard/Alonso(great)
They do not need to strength their defense hugely, its up front where they lack.

I honastly don't think one of the left/right wingers or the forward men are good enough. I think Garcia is the only player close to the quality required for the style of play Benetiz will want to play, which is of course the fun fun fun 4-5-1.
In that system, you need magic men to make it work.
Chelsea have them in Lampard/Robben/Duff
Man United have them in Scholes/Ronaldo/Rooney
Liverpool do not have them at all, with Garcia being the closest, as he can create goals from nothing.
I think Liverpool showed in the CL that they could defend and defend well, its up front where they have been lacking.

i am not 100% convinced risse is a good left back. But he will do for this season. Definitly need a CB.

I am not sure what tactic benetiz will use. He didnt have a huge amount of opitions last year. Be different this season.

We need a world class winger, Hopefully if gonzalez gets back from his injury grand he can do the job. Wait and see.

Reina
Finnan - Carra - New CB - Risse(for the moment)

New Rw(cisse until gonzalez is fit) - gerrard - alonso - Bolo(for the moment)

Nando - Crouch


Not good enough for PL, but should definitly cut the gap. Thats all i want from this season.

el rabitos

I think Liverpool showed in the CL that they could defend and defend well, its up front where they have been lacking

am i the only one that remembers the first half of that match?

to say liverpool were ripped appart and made look like a team that deserved 5th place in the premiership would be an understatement - and i'm a liverpool fan.

hyypia's lack of pace was exposed, and traore kept playing milan onside, he was out of his dept.

mellors isnt good enough, on his way out soon. Pongolle is not good enough as a striker aswell. Baros is a muppet.

good enough or not, muppet or not....at least theres options. the defence has NO options, sticking traore in centre of defence is not an option.

crouch wouldnt of been my first choice. BUt i aint going to slate him until he has been given a bit of a run in the team.

i dont think people are slating crouch, we're all slating 7 million for him, but i do think he's good to have in any squad.

i'm just saying with the strikers that were already there, theres a greater need for investment in the defence, and a relationship between defenders is harder to develop than it is for strikers imo, so i think we should have bought defenders first.

Davei141

i am not 100% convinced risse is a good left back. But he will do for this season. Definitly need a CB.

Riise is a very good defender and a very good attacker, what more do you need from a left back.

good enough or not, muppet or not....at least theres options. the defence has NO options, sticking traore in centre of defence is not an option.

Thats his position, traore isnt a left back. Hes quite decent at centre back.

Chucky the tree

el rabitos wrote:

i dont think people are slating crouch, we're all slating 7 million for him, but i do think he's good to have in any squad.

i'm just saying with the strikers that were already there, theres a greater need for investment in the defence, and a relationship between defenders is harder to develop than it is for strikers imo, so i think we should have bought defenders first.

The main reason everyone seems to be knocking the coruch transfer is because the money, and how its needs to be invested in the defense.

Maybe i have missed it, but has benetiz said that that after spending the 7mil on crouch there is no money left for any more transfers? to my knowledge he hasnt. We will still buy a B, the crouch transfer hasnt made any difference on that, so why are they being associated?

If he could of bought a defender first he would of. Do you think hes dragging it out this long for the laugh? He was able to sign crouch now, so he signed him, why bother waiting till a defender is signed before doing that? hes signing players as soon as its possible.

People seriously need to realise that Football manager 2005 is not real life. Alot of people seem to think that all you have to do is put in a bid, have it accepted and the player will sign in the next few days with no problems.

Jivin Turkey

PHB wrote:

I honastly don't think one of the left/right wingers or the forward men are good enough. I think Garcia is the only player close to the quality required for the style of play Benetiz will want to play, which is of course the fun fun fun 4-5-1.
In that system, you need magic men to make it work.

You constantly tell us that United play a 4-3-3. Yet Liverpool play the "fun fun fun 4-5-1"? In reality, they are both very very similar.

How many times did we see Cisse on the right last year prior to his injury? We have already seen him play on the right this year. What is the difference between Morientes flanked by Cisse, Zenden/Garcia to Van Nistelrooy, Rooney/Giggs, Ronaldo? None, absolutely positively none.

Garcia is the only player close to the ability required for that style of play? Garcia is as good as Ronaldo, who you cream yourself over. Like it or lump it. In one season he has shown that he is far from the finished article (like Ronaldo) but he still weighed in with more goals and assists, the things that matter for a player like that. He will only get better this year. Now dont get me wrong, Ronaldo at 20 has huge potential, but thats what he mostly is at this stage, raw potential.

Morientes is also of required ability. He didnt show it last year, he looked very rusty, but I suppose six months in the reserves will do that.

PHB wrote:

Chelsea have them in Lampard/Robben/Duff
Man United have them in Scholes/Ronaldo/Rooney
Liverpool do not have them at all, with Garcia being the closest, as he can create goals from nothing.
I think Liverpool showed in the CL that they could defend and defend well, its up front where they have been lacking.

By including Lampard and Scholes you also include Gerrard. Who despite a "poor" season, with many well publicised off field agendas still hammered the goals in for fun. And he has done so this year too. Out of all the six players you have named there, only Lampard has scored more than Gerrard in the last year. We will definitely see a more focused Gerrard this year, and he is a man of undoubted quality.

el rabitos

Maybe i have missed it, but has benetiz said that that after spending the 7mil on crouch there is no money left for any more transfers? to my knowledge he hasnt. We will still buy a B, the crouch transfer hasnt made any difference on that, so why are they being associated?

maybe you missed my other post where i said, i know he'd had money set aside for the defence, i'd just prefere it if there was another 7 million there if he needed it on top of what he's got

If he could of bought a defender first he would of. Do you think hes dragging it out this long for the laugh? He was able to sign crouch now, so he signed him, why bother waiting till a defender is signed before doing that? hes signing players as soon as its possible.

of course buy any player takes patience and negotiating, but theres a difference between pursuing a player and aggresively pursuing a player, i just think benitez could have sured up the defence a bit quicker, if only with some cheap utility player, because the cover at cb is terrible right now.

People seriously need to realise that Football manager 2005 is not real life. Alot of people seem to think that all you have to do is put in a bid, have it accepted and the player will sign in the next few days with no problems.

dont bring your personal activities into transfer talk

Davei141

Would you rather benitez just pay zaragoza the ever increasing transfer demand just to sign him 'sooner'? Baros is going to be sold, so why spend it on a defender when the funds for a defender are already available?

Jivin Turkey

Davei141 wrote:

Would you rather benitez just pay zaragoza the ever increasing transfer demand just to sign him 'sooner'? Baros is going to be sold, so why spend it on a defender when the funds for a defender are already available?

Exactly, there is another £7M (at least I hope) from sale of Baros. That will leave us with strikers of

Morientes
Cisse
Crouch
Sinama-Pongolle
Mellor

I would expect Mellor to be sold, so we are hardly left with an embarassment of riches particularly as it will still be months before FSP is near fit enough for first team football.

Chucky the tree

el rabitos wrote:

maybe you missed my other post where i said, i know he'd had money set aside for the defence, i'd just prefere it if there was another 7 million there if he needed it on top of what he's got

I think he will be given what he asks for tbh. I dont he will be given a limit he needs to stick buy. Obviously he cant go to the board and say "here, give us 100million" but if he needs an extra 3 or 4 that wont be a problem.

el rabitos wrote:

of course buy any player takes patience and negotiating, but theres a difference between pursuing a player and aggresively pursuing a player, i just think benitez could have sured up the defence a bit quicker, if only with some cheap utility player, because the cover at cb is terrible right now.

As David said, rafa i am sure has tried that but zaragoza seem to be acting the bolloz over it. Another week or 2 wont make a big difference.

el rabitos

Would you rather benitez just pay zaragoza the ever increasing transfer demand just to sign him 'sooner'? Baros is going to be sold, so why spend it on a defender when the funds for a defender are already available?

OR

if you actually read what i wrote, which was....

"i just think benitez could have sured up the defence a bit quicker, if only with some cheap utility player"

now arsenal have players like cygan, and the other young players that are actually good enough to provide good cover, so do united and chelsea speak for themselves.

liverpool have zak whitbread and traore? now if u think those two would be grand to have in defence then your on your own.

it doesnt take 12 million for millitio or whoever to provide decent cover in case of an injury crisis, i'm talking about the basics here, zak whitbread who has not got a sniff of first team action, and traore just is not good enough

Bacchus

After flicking through some the posts here I'm amazed at how low an opinion people have of the Liverpool squad. Look at it this way

(GK): Reina - supposed to be a class act
(RB): Finnan - great defender, great at getting forward too.
(LB): Riise - IMO one of the best players in the PL. Great, pacy defender who gets up the wing to help attack a lot.
(CB): Carragher - One of the top defenders in PL
(CB): Hopefully the Milito or some other good defender will be joining the ranks which which will make for a formidable defence. Hyypia is still useful but is past his best.

(RM): Garcia/Gonzalez - Garcia is a very good attacking player that can score goals from nothing who I think will have learned a lot from last season and will be a even better player for it. I don't know anything about Gonzalez but ye lot seems optimistic about him.
(LM): Zenden/Kewell - can't wait to see Zenden put in those crosses with Crouch/Cisse up front. As for Kewell.... eh, you never know, maybe his surgery will fix him for good this time.
(CM): Gerrard - one of the best midfielders in Europe
(CM): Alonso - as good as Gerrard. His passing is second to noone in the PL. I can see himself and Zenden getting on very well.
We also have Hamann and that new boy Sissoko for cover.

(Fwd): Cisse - great pace, showed he can score goals last season before his injury
(Fwd): Crouch - tough to call but he could be a good target man for Cisse/Morientes/Gerard to feed off.
Also have Morientes and LeTallec (who looks promising) in support.

1st team:

---

Reina

---

Finnan

---

Carragher

---

Milito/Hyypia

---

Riise/Warnock
Garica/Gonzalez---Gerrard/Hamann

---

Alonzo/Sissoko----Zenden/Kewell

---

Cisse/Morientez

---

Crouch

---

That's a damn good team. All we need is one or two new defenders (Milito + one other). Barring another massive injury list like last season we have decent cover for all positions with the new signings and with all the younger players waiting for their chance (Welsh, Mellor, Pongolle, Potter, LeTallec).

Jivin Turkey

el rabitos wrote:

OR

if you actually read what i wrote, which was....

"i just think benitez could have sured up the defence a bit quicker, if only with some cheap utility player"

now arsenal have players like cygan, and the other young players that are actually good enough to provide good cover, so do united and chelsea speak for themselves.

liverpool have zak whitbread and traore? now if u think those two would be grand to have in defence then your on your own.

it doesnt take 12 million for millitio or whoever to provide decent cover in case of an injury crisis, i'm talking about the basics here, zak whitbread who has not got a sniff of first team action, and traore just is not good enough

OR

instead of going for "some cheap utility player" Benetiz waits for the right player at the right price.

I would much rather see him do that, and the season doesnt start for almost another month, there is plenty of time for a defender to be acquired and have time to fit in. Benetiz has stated puclically that a defender will be bought so I would relax a little.

Chucky the tree

el rabitos wrote:

OR

if you actually read what i wrote, which was....

"i just think benitez could have sured up the defence a bit quicker, if only with some cheap utility player"

now arsenal have players like cygan, and the other young players that are actually good enough to provide good cover, so do united and chelsea speak for themselves.

liverpool have zak whitbread and traore? now if u think those two would be grand to have in defence then your on your own.

it doesnt take 12 million for millitio or whoever to provide decent cover in case of an injury crisis, i'm talking about the basics here, zak whitbread who has not got a sniff of first team action, and traore just is not good enough

so who would you buy as basic cheap cover in defence then?

As any arsenal fan what they think of cygan, you will get the same replies as liverpool fan would give about traore. We dont need a cheap defense cover. We need a quality defender to replace hyypia. Hyypia is a good Cover defender, but isnt good enough to be the regualr.

Davei141

"i just think benitez could have sured up the defence a bit quicker, if only with some cheap utility player"

Traore isnt good enough but a cheap utility player is? You think cygan is better than traore at centre of defence? have you ever seen him at CB, hes much better than at LB.

el rabitos

the problem liverpool have, and its not as obvious as it should be, is the lack of quality comming through the youth system. players like partridge and a few others were seen as having potential, but nobody of top quality has come through in a good few years now.

and when liverpool are competing with the money of chelsea and even arsenal and united, the best way to get great players for cheap, is to develop them yourself. something that hasnt been going too well since owen came through

potter is being given a few games so far in pre-season, so maybe theres something to him

Guy:Incognito

Bacchus wrote:

As for Kewell.... eh, you never know, maybe his surgery will fix him for good this time.

Is he getting a lobotomy?

cruiserweight

BolBill wrote:

Its a sad day for Liverpool, maybe Crouch (Timmy from Southpark) has been bought to cut down on the need for scaffolding when building begins on the new stadium.

Also, sorry mate but Bolo (all four letters appear in Bollo*) is sh*t, looked good at Boro but then again I'd look good there.

A great assesment, intelligent comments would have been more welcome , the fact is both players will help Liverpool in the league like it or not

Thanx 4 The Fish

el rabitos wrote:

the problem liverpool have, and its not as obvious as it should be, is the lack of quality comming through the youth system. players like partridge and a few others were seen as having potential, but nobody of top quality has come through in a good few years now.

and when liverpool are competing with the money of chelsea and even arsenal and united, the best way to get great players for cheap, is to develop them yourself. something that hasnt been going too well since owen came through

potter is being given a few games so far in pre-season, so maybe theres something to him

Whitbread is supposed to be the real deal, rafa has placed his faith in him and that is enough for me, he had a very good season in the reserves and is being given his chance in preseason, if he performs well then a CB berth is there to be won. I think that One more defender is plenty at the moment. Traore can go back as a stopgap, and if we have a back four without Hyypia then we have him as a backup. Who knows maybe the manager knows what he is up to, only time and a champions league win will tell. Now we have on of those two, guess that time is the other one.

Davei141

I like him too, very comfortable on the ball and gives you confidence. Also very assertive.

Necronomicon

I can understand why Liverpool fans would be annoyed that Rafa spent 7 million on a striker when they need cover more at the back, but remember, the goals weren't flowing all the time last season. Particularly in away matches, the likes of Palace, Birmingham etc they often struggled to score goals.
Also, they had a 7.5 million (wasn't it?) bid rejected for Milito. So Rafa must still be in the market for someone.

Jivin Turkey

el rabitos wrote:

the problem liverpool have, and its not as obvious as it should be, is the lack of quality comming through the youth system. players like partridge and a few others were seen as having potential, but nobody of top quality has come through in a good few years now.

and when liverpool are competing with the money of chelsea and even arsenal and united, the best way to get great players for cheap, is to develop them yourself. something that hasnt been going too well since owen came through

potter is being given a few games so far in pre-season, so maybe theres something to him

I think you might be being a bit harsh on some of the youngsters. Remember Gerrard was only gradually breaking into the team at 19/20, and was hardly the player he is now then.

Warnock has had a few good games last year. Im not that impressed with Potter but again Benetiz has given him a chance, as well as Whitbread.

PHB

You constantly tell us that United play a 4-3-3. Yet Liverpool play the "fun fun fun 4-5-1"? In reality, they are both very very similar.

How many times did we see Cisse on the right last year prior to his injury? We have already seen him play on the right this year. What is the difference between Morientes flanked by Cisse, Zenden/Garcia to Van Nistelrooy, Rooney/Giggs, Ronaldo? None, absolutely positively none.

First off United play a 4-3-3, compared to Chelsea's 4-5-1 and Liverpools soon to be 4-5-1.
Cisse might be as attacking as say Ronaldo, but Zenden/Garcia are nowhere near as attacking as Rooney.
Liverpool are nowhere near as attacking as Man United are.
Man Utd are still in my mind the most attack orientated team in England, even if they utterly sucked at it last year.
Chelsea play an oddish floating around style 4-5-1 that goes into a 4-4-2, 4-1-3-2, 4-1-2-3 during the match. Mourinho has modes that he swaps inbetween games.

Garcia is the only player close to the ability required for that style of play? Garcia is as good as Ronaldo, who you cream yourself over. Like it or lump it. In one season he has shown that he is far from the finished article (like Ronaldo) but he still weighed in with more goals and assists, the things that matter for a player like that. He will only get better this year. Now dont get me wrong, Ronaldo at 20 has huge potential, but thats what he mostly is at this stage, raw potential.

I agree, and I like Garcia.
But the reason I like Ronaldo so much is that he has this potenital, and at times he shows it.
Garcia has reached his peak, this is near the best he is going to get, although he will obviously get better bit by bit.
I am one of the few people of United fans who like Ronaldo in the team, the slating he gets from most United fans is unreal. He isn't there yet, but I'm ok with him being there because he is going to be. Thats the only reason I tolerate having a below-standerd player in the team.
I wouldn't tolerate it if he wasn't going to get a hell of a lot better, which Garcia won't.

Morientes is also of required ability. He didnt show it last year, he looked very rusty, but I suppose six months in the reserves will do that.

I am not a huge believer in Morientes. I think he is a quality big game player, but he has only once ever shown himself to be a consistant 20 goal a season scorer.
He isn't as good as Crespo or Van Nist, and not even Drogba.

By including Lampard and Scholes you also include Gerrard. Who despite a "poor" season, with many well publicised off field agendas still hammered the goals in for fun. And he has done so this year too. Out of all the six players you have named there, only Lampard has scored more than Gerrard in the last year. We will definitely see a more focused Gerrard this year, and he is a man of undoubted quality.

I think Gerrard is the best midfielder in the PL, now that Vieira has left.
He is however a DMC, who is forced to push forward because of the lack of quality in Liverpools attack. Its like when United had to push Scholes to up front because we had a lack of quality through injuries up there.
Gerrard is not included in the attacking line up because he shouldnt be up there.
Liverpool don't have a proper AMC imo.

I think Liverpool have a top quality bottom half of the team, from position 1 to position 7, including Gerrard and Alonso as the DMC style players, with Alonso a little more attacking, maybe Hypia needs replacing.
After that, I think they lack a serious amount of quality, a serious amount, and I don't think they have greatly improved on that.
I don't think Crouch is an improvement.
I think Cisse could be great, but I've yet to see it, especially relating to onside.
Kewell speaks for himself.
Riise is not a left winger, he is a left back come left winger due to lack of options.
Garcia is good, but as outlined above.
Morientes has never shown the consistancy, big game players aren't what Liverpool need.
Zenden is a temp solution, but is quite good.

Bannor

The money paid for Crouch won't affect other transfers - to date the transfer has only cost £3M. He wasn't first or second choice - Parry was in contact with Palace last week regarding Johnson but there was no change in the situation there. Kuyt was the player Rafa wanted but he wasn't prepared to pay the money at the time (that could change if Baros leaves).

The defence doesn't require strengthening until the third round qualifier so there has been no rush to sign a defender. Benitez is looking to bring in two central defenders but it's dependent on qualifying for the group stage of the Champions League. Before the third qualifying round I would expect the arrival of Milito and Figo at the very least. Galletti is also a strong possibility if the Milito deal happens. Chelsea were given an offer for Gallas which they have chosen to ignore for now - probably still in a huff over the Gerrard saga. There are also strong links to other central defenders in Spain.

Possible scenario: Madrid return from their Asian tour on July 30th, the following day they hold a press conference to annouce the departure of Luis Figo. August 1st - Liverpool unveil Luis Figo, Gabriel Milito and Luciano Galletti, all of whom are elligible for registration for the third qualifying round.

That would leave Benitez a whole month to decide on whether or not he wants to sign the second central defender and to resolve the futures of a few players (Dudek and Baros for example). If Liverpool qualify for the group stages and Baros is sold then I could see Parry returning with an acceptable offer for Kuyt before the registration deadline in September.

Jivin Turkey

PHB wrote:

First off United play a 4-3-3, compared to Chelsea's 4-5-1 and Liverpools soon to be 4-5-1.
Cisse might be as attacking as say Ronaldo, but Zenden/Garcia are nowhere near as attacking as Rooney.
Liverpool are nowhere near as attacking as Man United are.
Man Utd are still in my mind the most attack orientated team in England, even if they utterly sucked at it last year.
Chelsea play an oddish floating around style 4-5-1 that goes into a 4-4-2, 4-1-3-2, 4-1-2-3 during the match. Mourinho has modes that he swaps inbetween games.

They all play in those rotating styles. But keep kidding yourself to this 4-3-3 idea you are constantly harping on about if it makes you happy.

I also like your comparisons Cisse VS Ronaldo, Garcia VS Rooney, quite convenient for your argument. Why not switch the two DC vs WR, LG vs CR. Then it is a far comparison. Id also say its equal with Chelseas combo of any of Robben/Duff/SWP.

PHB wrote:

Garcia has reached his peak, this is near the best he is going to get, although he will obviously get better bit by bit.
I am one of the few people of United fans who like Ronaldo in the team, the slating he gets from most United fans is unreal. He isn't there yet, but I'm ok with him being there because he is going to be. Thats the only reason I tolerate having a below-standerd player in the team.
I wouldn't tolerate it if he wasn't going to get a hell of a lot better, which Garcia won't.

Garcia is definitely not at his peak. He has just turned 27. This will be the first season in 5 years that he has not moved clubs. He has never had a place to call home. He is still very hungry. He is still adpating to English football.

I bet Garcia will surprise a lot of people this year.

PHB wrote:

I am not a huge believer in Morientes. I think he is a quality big game player, but he has only once ever shown himself to be a consistant 20 goal a season scorer.
He isn't as good as Crespo or Van Nist, and not even Drogba.

So let me get this straight, because you think that FM has had one good season hitting 20+ (which is wrong by the way) he is not better than Drogba who has had how many 20+ seasons? Oh yeah, I understand.

For your information have a look at FMs record here. Its not a bad one, in league terms, champions league, and international football. He spent 8 years at Madrid while they were at their peak, and only really lost his place at the end of their peak (post 2002).

PHB wrote:

I think Gerrard is the best midfielder in the PL, now that Vieira has left. He is however a DMC, who is forced to push forward because of the lack of quality in Liverpools attack.

And of course because he is amazing going forward.

PHB wrote:

I think Liverpool have a top quality bottom half of the team, from position 1 to position 7

You need more than a quality first XI to win trophies.

PHB wrote:

After that, I think they lack a serious amount of quality, a serious amount, and I don't think they have greatly improved on that.

I don't think Crouch is an improvement.
I think Cisse could be great, but I've yet to see it, especially relating to onside.
Kewell speaks for himself.
Riise is not a left winger, he is a left back come left winger due to lack of options.
Garcia is good, but as outlined above.
Morientes has never shown the consistancy, big game players aren't what Liverpool need.
Zenden is a temp solution, but is quite good.

All of these players are improvments.

Zenden is not a temporary solution, he is coming into the peak of his career.

Of course Crouch is an improvment. The guy has scored goals at every club he has gone to. He is a model pro, a hard worker.

Morientes is a big game player, who despite never showing consistency has a 1:2 ratio of goals to starts.

Cisse despite being rough around the edges will be like a new signing. He is a lad that is desperate to succeed.

Liverpool need a bigger squad, of proven players, as demonstrated last year.

These players are the first steps.

Bannor

PHB wrote:

First off United play a 4-3-3, compared to Chelsea's 4-5-1 and Liverpools soon to be 4-5-1.

Liverpool currently play 4-4-2, the formation will be adapted as required.

PHB wrote:

I am not a huge believer in Morientes. I think he is a quality big game player, but he has only once ever shown himself to be a consistant 20 goal a season scorer.
He isn't as good as Crespo or Van Nist, and not even Drogba.

Why compare Morientes to those players? Surely the better apples to apples comparison would be Djibril Cisse. He was consistently the top scorer in France before joining Liverpool.

PHB wrote:

I think Gerrard is the best midfielder in the PL, now that Vieira has left.
He is however a DMC, who is forced to push forward because of the lack of quality in Liverpools attack. Its like when United had to push Scholes to up front because we had a lack of quality through injuries up there.
Gerrard is not included in the attacking line up because he shouldnt be up there.
Liverpool don't have a proper AMC imo.

I think Liverpool have a top quality bottom half of the team, from position 1 to position 7, including Gerrard and Alonso as the DMC style players, with Alonso a little more attacking, maybe Hypia needs replacing.
After that, I think they lack a serious amount of quality, a serious amount, and I don't think they have greatly improved on that.

Gerrard is not a defensive midfielder - he is a ball carrier that drives the team forward and scores goals. In the central midfield pairing Alonso/Hamann is the one that sits back.

If the right midfield and central defence positions are strengthened that will leave the left back position as the weak spot of the squad.

Goalkeepers:
Reina/Carson/Kirkland/Dudek
Right backs:
Finnan/Josemi/Barragan/Raven
Centre backs
Carragher/Hyypia/Milito*/Traore/Medjani/Whitbred/OTHER
Left backs:
Riise/Traore/Warnock
Right midfield:
Figo*/Galletti*/Garcia/Nunez/Zenden
Left midfield:
Kewell/Gonzalez/Garcia/Zenden/Riise
Central midfield:
Alonso/Gerrard/Hamann/Sissoko/Potter/Welsh
Forwards:
Cisse/Crouch/Baros/Morientes/Pongolle/Le Tallec/Mellor

(* assuming the deals go through)

If the left back position was strengthened then Liverpool would have a squad which is more than capable of challenging the top three.

midget lord

I love this thread.

Anyway, according to reports, liverpool have now made an offer for Daniel Alves:


Linkage.

Roughly translated as follows:

In the last few hours an offer has arrived at Nervión for Daniel Alves. In this case it is Liverpool who are interested in the Brazilian footballer. The offer was presented by Garcia Quilon, who is a regular representative in the Spanish market for the Reds' manager. Rafa Benitez and his coaches have been following the Brazilian for some time. Alves' profile has risen in the last two seasons and already several top sides have declared an interest in him. Juventus was one of these and the Italians registered an offer of €10m to make this interest known.

Before this the Sevillian president told Quilon that the club had no intention of selling the wide-man. Alves is well-tied to the club with a buy-out-clause of €60m. For this reason interested clubs will have to negotiate with Sevilla. not 100% on this but... The player is aware of the interest and has not ruled out anything. "The idea of all footballers is to improve their game and economic situation. I will only leave if the offer is good for Sevilla and for me. My idea is to get the most money available so I can help my family. But I like it here and my head is not anywhere else".

Before the Julio Baptista case exploded the Sevilla board had decided, in principle, to listen to some of the enquiries about Alves so they wouldn't have to sell "The Beast" or Sergio Ramos. Nevertheless, things have changed drastically. Del Nido doesn't want to risk any transfers before a possible Baptista sale.

While Liverpool are interested in Alves, Sevilla hope to secure Spanish nationality for the Brazilian in the next few weeks. It is obvious that with a passport in his hand, Alves' price will rise. Perhaps the club will have the upper hand when it comes to transfer negotiations. If the passport doesn't arrive in time it could be a problem as the team has 4 no-EU players in Alves, Baptista, Luis Fabiano and Adriano. This point is key in Alves' future. In order to get his nationality Alves has to be a regular in the Sevilla side. But if there are problems he could be the one chosen to leave not sure what the last bit means, but it could be and to leave that way would be an strange way to end his time in the jersey.

We have been after him since last July when we had a €10m offer turned down. Unlike Baptista, Alves should have his EU papers by August making a move a lot easier. We also have the baros bargaining chip.

StickyMcGinty

i dont think baros would want to go to alaves, he definately wants to play in the cha,pions league!

midget lord

Where is the cue of champions league teams then? Its possible he may not have that option.

redspider

Chucky the tree wrote:

eh a few pages back, where you not going on about how Baros has great potential and should be given a chance instead of signing Crouch?

Yes, I am unhappy with what Baros has done, who isnt, but that does not mean that he doesnt have the potential of being a top player and a better player than Crouch. Maybe he will never be a top player. Maybe Benitez has tried to coach him and failed, and is now looking to off-load him as a "failed project". But in terms of football and his finishing ability, it would seem to me that he has more skill and composure than Crouch, and more potential.

So overall:
- I'm not happy with the Crouch signing, 7m is a lot.
- Baros has been better than Crouch in the past and should be in the future, although there are no guarantees
- Baros has been given a chance at Liverpool, but not the ideal chance, not in his best position nor with a line-up that supports his type of play

My belief is that all players have certain strengths, particular ways of playing and a style, and there is a strong dependancy on the tactics and team selection that will either help that style to flourish and be productive or not. Its the old adage, football is a team game. Baros however never really was in a set-up at Liverpool that suited his natural attributes. The CZ team have been able to exploit his abilities with their set-up.

Managers always have a problem about trying to mould a team out of their players, and in a set-up that maximises output. Benitez has used Baros, maybe even tried to change him at times, but the result has not been productive. I also think Baros was unlucky at times. He had chances to score last season yet was less prolific in a Liverpool shirt, where at times he lacked confidence in front of the posts, and yet would score with comparative ease in more difficult opportunities in a CZ shirt. Perhaps like us all, Benitez is rubbing his head trying to figure out whats going on. Meanwhile, the player and his ego need to be massaged.

Overall, Benitez has to consider the team and select his players accordingly. Baros seemed to be out of Benitz's plans last year yet he played him in all the important matches, notwithstanding that one of his chosen few, Morientes, was CL-tied. Now with a "supposedly fitter" Morientes (although I doubt it has anything to do with fitness), Baros is surplus to the plans and set-up. This is ok in itself, but a pity when you see 7m being spent on Crouch, as a player of Crouch's ability and style will require a certain set-up by the Liverpool team. Ironically, Baros is probably one of the players that would benefit from a target man such as Crouch.

Overall, if I look at Liverpool's attack line, I see deficiencies in all the players. And Baros has no more deficiencies than the others, and less than most of them.

Redspider