Liverpool Signings and General Rumours Thread

redspider

Bannor wrote:

SFX : Gerrard's agents/representatives.

Thanks for the link and info. I hadnt heard of SFX. So, SFX = Gerard's agents.

I see they also represent Owen but also Hansen, Lineker and Gabi Logan/Yorath ... hmm, maybe thats why the latter 3 have nothing too bad to say about Gerrard or Owen!! Hmm, not sure if this is a problem with the game but surely the media should be independent of the players! I mean, imagine if the Irish Times and other Irish media were represented by the same organisation as the Politicians? Oh, look at RTE - they are !! And Gabi being represented, cant understand that. Surely a model agency would be more appropriate.


Back to football:

Quote: Bannor: SFX have already been talking to Arrigo Saachi and Florentino Perez about a potential contract offer from Madrid - they obviously don't want to get outflanked like what happened to Owen last summer. Liverpool still have an offer from Milan for the player.


ok, so you are saying that both Madrid and Milan are still interested in Gerrard. Well, I'm sure he could go if the price is right, and as you say, if the player is wanting to leave its another factor in the negotiation. However, I think Gerrard will stay and is just looking to get more money from Liverpool. His representatives will want to make sure that to do that there are plenty of clubs wanting to pay big money for him. It will help them in the negotiations.

I dont know what the stats are, but I'd say there must be 10 times as many offers as there are actually deals.

But you are right, the clock is ticking for Gerrard and he will have to settle his situation with Liverpool in the coming weeks. It would be a shame if he dallied and dithered as that will taint him in terms of Liverpool fans.

Redspider

Lex Luthor

redspider wrote:

I agree that Alonso is a good player. Whether Benitez just got lucky with him or whehter it was astute judgement I still dont know. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say it was good judgement.

Alonso was not good judgement. A lot of the big clubs around Europe had been looking at him for a while.
I saw an interview with Guillem Ballague on Sky Sports about 6 months before the name Alonso became known to Liverpool fans and he stated then that he would be playing at Anfield at the start of 2004 season. He also said for the last year the Spanish national team staff were planning to build the future team around him & Reyes.

Bannor

Plenty of people on here knew about Alonso before he signed for Liverpool. He wasn't a shot in the dark for Benitez, the player was lifted out from under the noses of Real Madrid while they were trying to finalise the Vieira transfer with Arsenal.

Official Alonso bid thread

midget lord

Alonso was being sought after by madrid and a few other for quite a while, soc wouldnt sell to a direct competitor, or so RB was told when he made an approach while at the helm in valencia. As soon as he came to anfield he made another approach, the rest is history! And so is five times!

Bannor

redspider wrote:

I dont think it was so simple as that. Morientes was not doing well in the 1st team and was dropped. Real loaned him out to Monaco, saving 33% on the wage bill (they paid the remainder) and he had a stormer of a year, very motivated. Real indicated that he would come back into the fold and the 1st team, but this didnt materialise and he was de-motivated again and wanted to move. So, Morientes wanted to go and Real wanted to sell him. They basically took the best deal that they could get at the time in the Jan window with a player that was CL-tied. Madrid saved a heap on salary costs, so being forced to accept the deal is not exactly true. It was financially better for them to do so.

In the case of Morientes - last summer Chelsea came in with an offer of €20M, Perez was saying yes but the newly installed manager Camacho was saying no, the player also said no.

Perez wanted to get rid of Morientes because of his part in the player revolt during the clubs centenary celebrations (A group of the players lead by Raul, Hierro and Morientes boycotted a celebration dinner and embarrassed Perez. They showed up over two hours late thinking the dinner would be over and the party would have started. Perez tore strips out of them and vowed to get revenge.). Hierro was got rid of, Morientes was sent to Monaco and Raul was too powerful to touch until after the club presidential elections.

Camacho wanted to build a team with a Spanish core and get rid of the Galaticos. Figo, Roberto Carlos and Ronaldo all had contract offers from Chelsea at the time and Camacho wanted to load them all in to a car and drive them to London himself. He also wanted Raul and Morientes to spearhead his team and re-ignite the partership that they had, and he wanted to sign Xabi Alonso as the player to replace Zidane in midfield.

Morientes wanted to stay at the club and was hoping that Perez would lose the presidential elections. He had already recieved assurances from Camacho that he would be in the team.

Afterwards there was a call from Rafa Benitez enquiring about the player. Again Perez wanted to talk, the manager wasn't interested, but Morientes talked to Benitez and explained that he wanted to make a go of it at the club and if he didn't get things sorted then he would definitely consider a move to Liverpool. Afterwards he told Camacho that if Perez won the club election then he wanted to leave Madrid.

In August the Michael Owen contract saga happened and Benitez was back to Madrid looking to do an exchange deal. There was an agreement in place regarding the Champions League qualifiers that neither player would play and then Camacho went and brought Morientes on as a late substitute so the exchange deal was binned. Benitez wanted Juanfran included in the deal but Camacho said no because he saw him as Figo's replacement. As a consilation prize Nunez was added to the transfer as a make weight.

Shortly there after it all went a bit tits up for Morientes at Madrid. Camacho failed to offload any of the Galaticos, Perez was insisting that Owen play ahead of the player, one Galatico revolt later Camacho was out on his ear and to top it off Perez won the election. Luxemburgo came in and tried to smooth over the cracks, telling Morientes that he was in his plans etc. etc. By December, Morientes didn't know if he was coming or going, the coach was telling him he was part of the plan but he was still only making substitute appearances.

Once Benitez had the chance to talk to the player again everything changed - Morientes was set on joining Liverpool. Perez tried to squeeze the club for more money for the transfer because there were higher offers but Morientes turned around and said that if Real didn't accept the Liverpool offer he would sit out the remainder of his contract and join Liverpool on a free transfer. Perez threathened to loan him to a team in Siberia but there was no flinching. In the end Perez backed down and Rafa got his man.

Madrid did make a saving on wages but the fact remains that the Liverpool offer was accepted even though there were higher offers on the table.

Bannor

redspider wrote:

I agree that all areas can be strengthened. I still like the idea that Barca have and that is build a squad of 1st team 23 players and stick with them. Obviously a long term injury, such as say the Cisse leg break needs to be filled. I am sure there will be plenty of players that I havent heard of. But its important I think that whoever is signed that they add quality. I'd rather spend a bit more to get one player than to spend on 5 cheaply and hope that they blossom into a good player. Either approach can work though. No-one has yet cracked an ideal way to assess new players. Arsenal seem to have given up on big buy purchases and are instead creating a development environment for prospective youths.

Rafa and Pako want a squad of 20 outfield players to be rotated through out the season.

redspider wrote:

I agree that Alonso is a good player. Whether Benitez just got lucky with him or whehter it was astute judgement I still dont know. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say it was good judgement.

Alonso had long be known to be one of the best talents in Spain. John Toshack had recommended the player to Liverpool even before Benitez was on the radar.

redspider wrote:

Morientes has some good touches but he is well past his best before date. People say its fitness but it cant be just down to that. In Real he was good, but then Gravesen is good in that team too. I dont think he is the right type of player for Liverpool. He's ideal for Bolton who specialise in European near-retirees. I fear when I hear Benitez saying that he has big plans for Morientes next year. This is where his over-loyalty for all things from Spain nay be an achilles heel. It certainly was last year with Pellegrino, who cost us the 4th place last year on his own.

The player himself has admitted that he has struggled to cope with the physical aspect of the Premiership, but to be fair to the player he only made substitute appearances for Madrid in the first half of the season and they weren't of the Vladimir Smicer in the Champions League Final more like the time wasting variety.

redspider wrote:

Garcia obviously hs skill, but was found to be wanting in many games for a) keepint the ball and b) distributing it. Also, he is another one of the chosen few for Benitez so gets a great position on the field. Having said all that, he did get his finger out on occasion, in the CL notably, such as the Chelsea match. He had a quiet CL final though, but everyone is allowed an off-day like that!

He didn't do too badly for a player in his first season in the Premiership. He got lumps kicked out of him and received no protection from referees yet he soldiered on regardless. The treatment of Garcia has caused Benitez to question the choice of players he was hoping to bring to the club so it's not likely we're going to see him sign flair players that fall over when the wind blows.

redspider wrote:

Nunez has proven to be a waste so far. He is played as a winger yet cant cross the ball or get past defenders. Even if signed as part of the Owen deal, it would have been better to take money instead or to get someone else.

There wasn't extra money on offer - it was a case of take the player and money or just take the money offered. Nunez isn't likely to be starting line-up material.

redspider wrote:

Josemi was not signed as a backup player. He was signed as a 1st team player and given plenty of opportunity to play. Benitez dropped Finnan, which I vehemently claimed was an error, as well as the signing of Josemi.

Josemi was signed as a squad player. Benitez didn't rate Finnan when he arrived and came close to selling him. Josemi did well when he initially played then he got injured and lost form.

redspider wrote:

Pellegrino, again you mention him as a backup player. However, Benitez put him in the 1st team, and when he was found out for pace, he played 5 at the back. This cost Liverpool points, perhaps as many as 6, and the 4th place. A complete disaster for Benitez imo. Even if he did know the zonal system, that was no reason to buy him.

The player was a free transfer and only cost the price of his wages - he was mainly used to rest the two first choice central defenders. Pellegrino did not prevent Liverpool from getting 4th spot - lack lustre performances against the likes of
Birmingham, Blackburn, Bolton, Everton, Middlesbrough, Portsmouth and Villa before Christmas saw to that.

Chucky the tree

whats the deal with andy johnson? i cant imagine him agreeing to stay with palace i nthe championship, basically waving goodbye to any chance of making the english world cup squad.

uberwolf

Reina has reiterated his intentions to play for Liverpool.
Further speculation re: Gerrard and Real.

StickyMcGinty

i'd like to see reina coming, i think he's a lot of potential.

i think this year is our best chance to sign quality players on the back of our champions league success, how much does rafa have to spend?
is parry gonna make available all of the 20million that we got from the champions league?

Drag00n79

Chucky the tree wrote:

whats the deal with andy johnson? i cant imagine him agreeing to stay with palace i nthe championship, basically waving goodbye to any chance of making the english world cup squad.

According to the papers today, Johnson has handed in a transfer request. Can't blame the guy really.

PHB

I'd say he'll make availible the extra 7 million you got than 'expected'
Liverpool are as always quite a rich club, but I'd imagine they aren't quite the power they used to be after Houllier's spending spree

el rabitos

the figure being thrown around alot seems to be 30 million for transfers. probably wishfull thinking though.

el rabitos

well 26 million on the 31st of july is pretty useless for liverpool since the registration deadline for the 1st round of cl is july 1st

Drag00n79

Just saw this on a Liverpool site:

The Spanish sports press has cranked up speculation that Liverpool midfielder Steven Gerrard could be set for a big-money move to Real Madrid.

Gerrard, whose profile in Europe has risen spectacularly after leading Liverpool to victory in the Champions League final, could be the latest 'galactico' for Real and their big-spending president Florentino Perez.

The press believes negotiations are already under way between the clubs.

Diario AS report that Liverpool have already decided on a price for the 25-year-old midfielder.

The price is 45 million euros (£30million) plus three members of Real Madrid's B team - central defender Alvaro Arbeloa, midfielder Javi Garcia and forward Ruben de la Red.

Both Arbeloa and Garcia have already made their first team debuts with Arbeloa able to cover at either right back or central defence.

However, Madrid's tradition is to wait for the player to admit he wants to move - that would not be easy for the England man who indicated he was staying at the club after winning the Champions League final a month ago.

"Madrid are confident the lad will make the gesture," writes AS columnist Thomas Roncero.

Marca are also optimistic that Gerrard is bound for Spain.

The paper believe that the ongoing contract talks with Gerrard's agent Struan Marshall are a sign that Liverpool are panicking at the prospect of losing their star player and on-field figurehead.

However, they also believe Liverpool coach Rafael Benitez would be willing to let Gerrard move to Madrid in order to finance a programme of team rebuilding.

There is also the question of SFX, who look after Gerrard -the management company have good relations with Real Madrid.

"They are the same company that worked with (David) Beckham and also works with (Michael) Owen and (Jonathan) Woodgate. The three ended up at Real Madrid," claimed Marca.

A photograph of Gerrard shaking hands with Real Madrid midfielder Guti in Ibiza has also fuelled speculation but that was probably a coincidence as the resort is a popular one for Primera Liga footballers.

Guti has claimed he would like to move to the Premiership in order to get regular first-team football.

Source

mike65

Of course any deal would be good news for money-grubbing SFX. Gerrard's staying if he were'nt we'd all know it by now. Guti on the other hand might be joining Pool!

Mike.

el rabitos

i dont think the bank will be broke to hold onto gerrard. his staying will be because he wants to and not because he's been offered a huge amount of money.

i'm sure rafa knows what his options are with gerrard, if he wants to stay he'll sign what he's offered, if he starts making waves about not getting enough or any other rumblings then he'll be sold off with the same speed as owen. real and milan are very interested unless i'm wrong.

i think rafa's always planned on building his team around a gerrard and alonso partnership, so i dont think he'll be leaving. i'm more interested in seeing what central defender will come in and what striker, with hamann staying i think the addition of cover for him and qualitly cover for garcia/gerrard, maybe aimar?? i also think we need someone in the mold of roy keane or paul ince, i think gerrard lacks a bit of a bullish atittide on the pitch that those type of players provide, and with a couple of lightweights in the team that lose confidence after a hard tackle or two, a strong player that can boss the pitch

with such restrictions on the amount of transfer money, it will take some good work from rafa to bring in players who are quality and cheap. wenger has shown a good eye for value in his time at arsenal and i think rafa will have to show similar ability this summer. he's said he wants players with passion and quality so either way i have faith in him to bring in the right men

redspider

Interesting insights and background details there Bannor. Thanks for taking the time to divulge. I dont dispute what you say, but I'd say if you interviewed Morientes, Benitez, Perez and Camacho, you might get 4 different versions of the chain of events.

Bannor wrote:

In the case of Morientes - last summer Chelsea came in with an offer of €20M, Perez was saying yes but the newly installed manager Camacho was saying no, the player also said no.

Perez wanted to get rid of Morientes because of his part in the player revolt during the clubs centenary celebrations (A group of the players lead by Raul, Hierro and Morientes boycotted a celebration dinner and embarrassed Perez. They showed up over two hours late thinking the dinner would be over and the party would have started. Perez tore strips out of them and vowed to get revenge.). Hierro was got rid of, Morientes was sent to Monaco and Raul was too powerful to touch until after the club presidential elections.

Camacho wanted to build a team with a Spanish core and get rid of the Galaticos. Figo, Roberto Carlos and Ronaldo all had contract offers from Chelsea at the time and Camacho wanted to load them all in to a car and drive them to London himself. He also wanted Raul and Morientes to spearhead his team and re-ignite the partership that they had, and he wanted to sign Xabi Alonso as the player to replace Zidane in midfield.

Morientes wanted to stay at the club and was hoping that Perez would lose the presidential elections. He had already recieved assurances from Camacho that he would be in the team.

I realise that there is a lot of internal politics going on, and player power at Madrid and the role of the president makes that club more unusual than most. However, many players are fickle at the best of times when it comes to loyalty as well as managers and one month they can be claiming undying loyalty to each other and in the following month will do it equally for someone else. Money distorts loyalties pretty rapidly in the football arena and players and managers can be quickly discarded by each other. So, Camacho going against Perez may not have been the case entirely and there can be plenty of bluff and bluster. Camacho may have had a desire to shape the team in a certain way, but so did and does Perez. Didnt Perez appoint or continue to appoint Camacho, so I cant see a case of Perez saying that something MUST happen and Camacho saying it to definitely CANT happen. If that was the case Camacho would have been sacked.

Morientes at the end of the day was clearly not in the plans. Hierro was a very old player, was he not going to retire a season or two before that? And why was Raul untouchable and Morientes not? Was it because that Raul was a better player? What was the power that Raul had and Hierro didnt? probably, asset and on-the-pitch value ...

Bannor wrote:

Afterwards there was a call from Rafa Benitez enquiring about the player. Again Perez wanted to talk, the manager wasn't interested, but Morientes talked to Benitez and explained that he wanted to make a go of it at the club and if he didn't get things sorted then he would definitely consider a move to Liverpool. Afterwards he told Camacho that if Perez won the club election then he wanted to leave Madrid.

In August the Michael Owen contract saga happened and Benitez was back to Madrid looking to do an exchange deal. There was an agreement in place regarding the Champions League qualifiers that neither player would play and then Camacho went and brought Morientes on as a late substitute so the exchange deal was binned.

This seemed a strange move at the time, and should have disuaded Benitez completely, as a CL-tied player would upset Liverpool's shape for the season if the player was picked as a 1st team player. Also, if Camacho was such a colleague of Morientes, and as Perez won the election, why did he play him in the CL and why did Morientes go on? This would have hampered his sellability, which he wanted and which Camacho was now ready to facilitate. Playing in that game did not make sense at the time and still doesnt, even for Morientes!

Bannor wrote:

Benitez wanted Juanfran included in the deal but Camacho said no because he saw him as Figo's replacement. As a consilation prize Nunez was added to the transfer as a make weight.

Well, so much for Camacho supporting Morientes then. He supported him as long as it didnt upset his own plans. He off-loaded Nunez who has been of no value.

Bannor wrote:

Shortly there after it all went a bit tits up for Morientes at Madrid. Camacho failed to offload any of the Galaticos, Perez was insisting that Owen play ahead of the player, one Galatico revolt later Camacho was out on his ear and to top it off Perez won the election. Luxemburgo came in and tried to smooth over the cracks, telling Morientes that he was in his plans etc. etc. By December, Morientes didn't know if he was coming or going, the coach was telling him he was part of the plan but he was still only making substitute appearances.

All well and good, but there is one important point missing from this. Morientes was not playing well. It wasn't as if he was a super-sub and the manager was not reflecting his worth. It was a case that he wasnt good enough. So, Camacho lost out in the power game, and Morientes, who was loosely associated with him, eventually paid the price.

Bannor wrote:

Once Benitez had the chance to talk to the player again everything changed - Morientes was set on joining Liverpool. Perez tried to squeeze the club for more money for the transfer because there were higher offers but Morientes turned around and said that if Real didn't accept the Liverpool offer he would sit out the remainder of his contract and join Liverpool on a free transfer. Perez threathened to loan him to a team in Siberia but there was no flinching. In the end Perez backed down and Rafa got his man.

Madrid did make a saving on wages but the fact remains that the Liverpool offer was accepted even though there were higher offers on the table.

Perez did the sensible thing in the end as it saved/made money. If a player holds out for a single club offer as you say, they can risk their career going into a cul-de-sac. Perez could have taken that route, refused the Liverpool offer, allowed Morientes to go on loan, but meanwhile watching the asset value of the player go down, whilst his huge salary costs remaining. At this stage, I think everyone would agree (apart from Morientes) that he was not producing on the pitch what his salary payments were, so he was a liability that needed to be off-loaded. Perez gained from the sale to Liverpool, imo. True, there may have been other offers on the table as you point out but Players cant be forced to play for another team.

Overall, Liverpool have not gained from this saga because they have got a player who is clearly past his best-before-date, and he wouldnt be there except for Benitez and his spanish links. Of course it would be good if Morientes could re-ignite his form, and Benitez perhaps took a ganble on that, but so far it hasnt paid off, and in the rought and tumble of the english league, it is not likely too.

Redspider

Emmo

Can I have a bet with you that Moro is going to be a hit next season?

Emmo

woodyg

i can see fernando hiiting about 15 minimum in the leauge if he gets of to a good start. cisse might get the same if he gets a good run of form and a good pre season behind him.

the only good thing to come out of the extended games we'll have before the leauge starts is that we'll have 4 to 6 competitive fixtures under our belt which should mean were hitting the ground running for the leauge all the little things should be ironed out.

and the team well have gained the valuable match fittness needed.

redspider

Again, good points and information Bannor.

Bannor wrote:

Alonso had long be known to be one of the best talents in Spain. John Toshack had recommended the player to Liverpool even before Benitez was on the radar.

Thats good to hear. I rate Toshack as a good observer of football. He clearly knows his football very well.

Bannor wrote:

The player himself has admitted that he has struggled to cope with the physical aspect of the Premiership, but to be fair to the player he only made substitute appearances for Madrid in the first half of the season and they weren't of the Vladimir Smicer in the Champions League Final more like the time wasting variety.

I still think he is past his best before date. He needs a better striker to play alongside with and Liverpool wont get in a Ronaldo (at his prime) or a Raul (at his prime). We'll have to wait to see what happens this year, but I dould be surprised.

Bannor wrote:

He didn't do too badly for a player in his first season in the Premiership. He got lumps kicked out of him and received no protection from referees yet he soldiered on regardless. The treatment of Garcia has caused Benitez to question the choice of players he was hoping to bring to the club so it's not likely we're going to see him sign flair players that fall over when the wind blows.

I agree that Garcia got little protection at times, but he went down very easily and lost the ball far too often. I realise he i small and not strong physically but he can raise his game and put in more exerted effort on holding off others when motivated. For example, the Chelsea game. He just does too much of this in his game for it to be an english league problem. Look at Juninho when he came in first, he battled well above his weight, literally. Garcia needed time to learn this I agree, but after 10 matches thats more than enough. He couldnt be arsed to do it when it was needed in the games such as away to City and Birmingham. He did do it though against the likes od Chelsea in the CL.

Bannor wrote:

There wasn't extra money on offer - it was a case of take the player and money or just take the money offered. Nunez isn't likely to be starting line-up material.

If he is not going to be starting material, then dont take him. He does cost money in terms of salary. Never take a dud, even if "free".

Bannor wrote:

Josemi was signed as a squad player. Benitez didn't rate Finnan when he arrived and came close to selling him. Josemi did well when he initially played then he got injured and lost form.

I dont agree with this viewpoint. This is a Benitez viewpoint. Josemi was signed as a 1st team player, not as a squad player. He went straight into the team and Finnan was dropped as a result. And yes, Benitez wanted to sell Finnan and there were talks of offers. Clearly an error by Benitez the whole Josemi/Finnan affair, where Benitez's blind loyalty to players that he knows (Josemi) over players that he doesnt know (Finnan). No, Josemi had lost form before getting injured. Josemi didnt play very well in any match.

Bannor wrote:

The player was a free transfer and only cost the price of his wages - he was mainly used to rest the two first choice central defenders. Pellegrino did not prevent Liverpool from getting 4th spot - lack lustre performances against the likes of
Birmingham, Blackburn, Bolton, Everton, Middlesbrough, Portsmouth and Villa before Christmas saw to that.

I disagree with the thrust of this. Pellegrino was solely at fault for many of the goals that cost Liverpool much needed points. He may have been "free" in terms of transfer costs, but he costs salary, he costs points and he ultimately cost 4th place on his own, although I agree that lack-lustre performances by other players also cost us. The lack of 4th place may have costs Liverpool millions due to the now cancelled tour in Japan, etc. I agree that when he was played he helped to rest Hyppia, and this seemed to do Hyppia good for his games against Juventus and Chelsea. But he was not a proper replacement and hence it cost Liverpool many points and 4th.

Redspider

BolBill

We should sell Gerrard for 30 million sterling, Dont buy Guti (hes sh*t), we have Xabi and Didi in midfield. Dont for the love of God buy Andy Johnson, one season wonder. Play El Moro and Cisse up front with Baros as cover.

Simple really.

midget lord

BolBill wrote:

We should sell Gerrard for 30 million sterling, Dont buy Guti (hes sh*t), we have Xabi and Didi in midfield. Dont for the love of God buy Andy Johnson, one season wonder. Play El Moro and Cisse up front with Baros as cover.

Simple really.

Are you for real?

NeVeR

was in the paper over the weekend that liverpool put a £32m for price tag on Gerrard

midget lord

NeVeR wrote:

was in the paper over the weekend that liverpool put a £32m for price tag on Gerrard

Hitler is not dead and got a sex change has also been in the paper, doesnt make it true. Its difficult for sports journo's at this time of the season, especially since there have been relatively few transfers, so they either rehash other stories or go with a news based on tenuous sources. The crazy season :mad:

Guy:Incognito

redspider wrote:

I disagree with the thrust of this. Pellegrino was solely at fault for many of the goals that cost Liverpool much needed points. He may have been "free" in terms of transfer costs, but he costs salary, he costs points and he ultimately cost 4th place on his own, although I agree that lack-lustre performances by other players also cost us. The lack of 4th place may have costs Liverpool millions due to the now cancelled tour in Japan, etc. I agree that when he was played he helped to rest Hyppia, and this seemed to do Hyppia good for his games against Juventus and Chelsea. But he was not a proper replacement and hence it cost Liverpool many points and 4th.

While I disagree wth Pellegrino being let near a football pitch and think hes muck(Laurant Blanc withut the skill I think was one analagy) he cannot be blamed for Liverpool not getting 4th. Yes he cost goals, but every other player, maybe with the exception of carra and finnan most of the time, were'nt bothered in half od the premiership matches. the 1-0 defeat to palace towards the end proved this.

No one was willing to battle when its needed. The foreign lads seemed to look at the game and say "screw this, that guy just kicked me, i'm off" and the young lads (welsh etc) who should have been out to prove a point and at the very least seeing how late in the season it was and the fact that they wouldnt be playing more than 1 or 2 more games between them, should have been sent out to take a card and show palace Liverpool werent going to be bullyied. This didnt happen and proved what was happening all season against scrappy, lower end teams. Livgerpool just werent up for a fight, and this was going on all season, not just sfter christmas when Pellegrino signed.

PHB

Pelligrino gave Hypia the chance to rest for the CL.
In a sense he allowed Liverpool to win the CL, they won it because of his work.
Perhaps you shouldn't be so ungrateful towards him
Every player plays a lot of roles, not just his role on the pitch

midget lord

redspider wrote:

I disagree with the thrust of this. Pellegrino was solely at fault for many of the goals that cost Liverpool much needed points. He may have been "free" in terms of transfer costs, but he costs salary, he costs points and he ultimately cost 4th place on his own, although I agree that lack-lustre performances by other players also cost us. The lack of 4th place may have costs Liverpool millions due to the now cancelled tour in Japan, etc. I agree that when he was played he helped to rest Hyppia, and this seemed to do Hyppia good for his games against Juventus and Chelsea. But he was not a proper replacement and hence it cost Liverpool many points and 4th.

I really cant get over this paragraph. You spend a lot of time penning your posts RS, but this quote is crazy. How can you possibly say that pelle 'ultimately cost 4th place on his own'. Its completely beyond comprehension. He was poor on a number of occastions, but so too was Djimi Traore. The entire squad cost us 4th, not one single player.

~Rebel~

I wouldn't put all the blame on his shoulders, he's not great but at the same time he didn't go banging in the OG's or anything. Personally i would have much preferred we had used Whitbred for cover just to give him a go, he probably could'nt have been much worse, meant to be a decent young player, and could show something for the future rather then someone at the end of their career. I dont particularly mind pelle being bought, but would have preferred if he had had a bit more of a couch/player role, used when necessary but there mostly for his experience, which he has a lot of - he was a fantastic defender after all, and has been offered an assistant coaching job by a former coach in spain which hes turned down.

DamoRed

To saypellegrino cost Liverpool 4th place on his own is ridiculous. There were so many matches that he didn't play in that were scandalously not fought for and all it would have taken was a bit of concentration. The losses that should have been draws, the draws that should have been wins. There were lots of games before he was signed that this was sorely in evidence.

It can't be ignored either, as PHB has pointed out, that his inclusion in some of those matches gave a twofold benefit in the case of Hyypia. Whether he was rested or dropped, after some lacklustre performances of his own. But fierstly he got the rest required. Secondly and most importantly, he came back with a point to prove. He burst back onto the scene with a goal against Juventus in the CL.

Hyypia's goal in the CL may appear to have little to do withPellegrino's performance in the Premiership. But it's all part of the bigger picture. Pelle's inclusion was instrumental in it's own way. It didn't work out for him in the long run, but he played his part. And for that he is to be thanked.


Damo

BolBill

midget lord wrote:

Are you for real?

Damn right I am, no player is bigger than the club (See M.Owen). I'm sick of Gerrard harping on about winning trophies when hes won everything available bar the Premiership so far with us !!!!! Its always before a big match too which is an awful distraction for the team and the manager. If we get 30 Million Sterling we should let him go.

And yes Guti is muck, has always been a fringe player with Real, hes a pin up from the locals hence his popularity but his ability is limited.

The Rooster

Shamrok wrote:

... and forward Ruben de la Red.

Love him already!

Good point re Whitbread, rebel.

Moro and Cisse have shown no signs that they could score 15 league goals between them, never mind each! But here's hoping

redspider

Stekelly wrote:

While I disagree wth Pellegrino being let near a football pitch and think hes muck(Laurant Blanc withut the skill I think was one analagy) he cannot be blamed for Liverpool not getting 4th. Yes he cost goals, but every other player, maybe with the exception of carra and finnan most of the time, were'nt bothered in half od the premiership matches. the 1-0 defeat to palace towards the end proved this. No one was willing to battle when its needed. The foreign lads seemed to look at the game and say "screw this, that guy just kicked me, i'm off" and the young lads (welsh etc) who should have been out to prove a point and at the very least seeing how late in the season it was and the fact that they wouldnt be playing more than 1 or 2 more games between them, should have been sent out to take a card and show palace Liverpool werent going to be bullyied.

I dont want people to take what I have said out of context. I agree that many other Liverpool players were at fault at times for letting Liverpool down last season in away matches: Garcia, Gerrard, Baros and I dont think Morientes was spectacular away. The players weren't helped by the formation selections either, such as 5-4-1 and 4-5-1 so Benitez has culpability too.

The point I am making is that I think that Pellegrino was so bad that he cost Liverpool significant points in the few matches that he played. Estimations on the number of points will vary depending on your own opinion. I estimate it at 4 pts. Your estimation may differ. ok, so lets look at other players. How many points dropped do you put down to Garcia's poor performances away, or Gerrard's, or Baros (no point in mentioning Kewell), or Morientes, or Traore or Dudek? They all contributed to Liverpool dropping points, but the question is which player "helped" to drop most. I watched a lot of games last year, RTE showed several away games, much to my horror, and in several of those games there was one word to describe it: Pellegrino.

ok, if I thinking Pellegrino lost us 4 pts, your own estimate may differ, and as Liverpool finished just 3 points behind Everton - the maths is simple for that. You could say that his apperances, as it transpires, could have been the factor between 4 and 5th. Obviously, there were other errors being made on the pitch too, and I dont want to single him out as being 100% the cause of Liverpool's 4th - no single player can have that much influence. Other players also lost points and together combined that would have taken Liverpool much higher up in terms of pts, and clearly into 4th.

Pellegrino was a bad mistake by Benitez. Benitez makes mistakes and this is one of them. And as it turned out, this one may have cost Liverpool 4th.

midget lord: How can you possibly say that pelle 'ultimately cost 4th place on his own'. Its completely beyond comprehension. He was poor on a number of occastions, but so too was Djimi Traore. The entire squad cost us 4th, not one single player.

I agree that the entire squad was at fault, but as we were only 3 pts behind Everton in the end and as I think that Pellegrino cost Liverpool 4 pts, that was enough of a difference on his own. Remember that for all Liverpool's failings among the team, and there were many, Everton were also poor so only a slight imrpovement on an abymsall away points tally would have got us through.

PHB: Pelligrino gave Hypia the chance to rest for the CL. In a sense he allowed Liverpool to win the CL, they won it because of his work.
Perhaps you shouldn't be so ungrateful towards him Every player plays a lot of roles, not just his role on the pitch.

Liverpool would have been at times better playing with 10 men than with pellegrino. He was occupying a key space in defence yet couldnt do it, as he just didnt have the legs for it. I'm not doubting he can play football, clearly he can and must have done so well in the past, but he was not fast enough as a defender last season, and it proved to be the case and it cost us with goals let in and ultimately points.


> allowed Liverpool to win the CL, they won it because of his work.
Liverpool won the CL despite of him, more like it!


Just because Liverpool won the CL, we shouldnt forget how bad we were in the league. I realise that doing well in one can have a factor on the other, and if anything the emphasis should be on the CL, so thats good, but its not as if we were dominating the CL, we deserved the win, due to some Benitez inspiration after some Benitez woefulness, but it could have been a different story. We need to remember what the mistakes were from last season, try to rectify them for this season, and I beleieve that Pellegrino was a big mistake.

He's sold now I understand so the problem is solved.

Redspider

redspider

Emmo wrote:

Can I have a bet with you that Moro is going to be a hit next season?

I think it will be difficult to judge whether Morientes is a hit or not, quite subjective if "close". I cant see him being a huge hit, I wish I would be wrong.

I dont think he will score 20 goals in the league in 38 starts and I have a feeling that he wont start 38 times in the league. I'd say he will be doing very well to get 15 goals in the league. Do you think he will? We can have a "gentlemans bet" if you want.

I wonder what the bookies think, I couldnt find any player odds just now. I also have a feeling that he will get injured.

Redspider

redspider

Stekelly wrote:

the 1-0 defeat to palace towards the end proved this. No one was willing to battle when its needed.

The Liverpool team v Palace was as follows: Dudek, Carragher, Hyypia, Pellegrino (Riise 54), Finnan, Welsh, Gerrard, Traore (Cisse 69), Le Tallec, Morientes, Baros (Potter 37).

Here's what I wrote at the time:

Pellegrino should not be in the Liverpool team, full stop. Benitez picking him to play is a mistake for me. Traore is weak enough as a full-back as it is without them both playing beside each other. Welsh was just not at the races at all today in midfield. Stevie G showed glimpses of play, but by the end had given up, and Carra had to do the driving. Jamie managed to create two chances for himself, a pity that he does not have the capability to shoot, but that is not expected from him. Le Tallec seemed to be completely out of his depth today, not able to keep possession at all and make any half-decent passes. Baros was lack-lustre as there seemed to be a gulf between the midfield and the attack, and his combination play with Morientes, who is at the sunset of his career, was non-existent. Morientes may get the odd goal but he is not a world beater. Hyppia is too slow and this showed against Johnson. Dudek couldn’t be faulted for the goal.


So, in this game, Benitez played 5 at the back to accomodate Pellegrino. The team would have been better with an empty space. With Johnson up front and fast, Liverpool were at times stretched at the back and it was impossible for Carragher to cover both Hyppia and Pellegrino who both are notably slow.

Emmo

redspider wrote:

I think it will be difficult to judge whether Morientes is a hit or not, quite subjective if "close". I cant see him being a huge hit, I wish I would be wrong.

I dont think he will score 20 goals in the league in 38 starts and I have a feeling that he wont start 38 times in the league. I'd say he will be doing very well to get 15 goals in the league. Do you think he will? We can have a "gentlemans bet" if you want.

I wonder what the bookies think, I couldnt find any player odds just now. I also have a feeling that he will get injured.

Redspider

Yeah sure thing.

I reckon to be called a success he needs to play 35+ games next season and score at least 15 goals.

Thats more than a goal every 3 games?

Hows that?

Emmo

Guy:Incognito

redspider wrote:

The Liverpool team v Palace was as follows: Dudek, Carragher, Hyypia, Pellegrino (Riise 54), Finnan, Welsh, Gerrard, Traore (Cisse 69), Le Tallec, Morientes, Baros (Potter 37).

Here's what I wrote at the time:

Pellegrino should not be in the Liverpool team, full stop. Benitez picking him to play is a mistake for me. Traore is weak enough as a full-back as it is without them both playing beside each other. Welsh was just not at the races at all today in midfield. Stevie G showed glimpses of play, but by the end had given up, and Carra had to do the driving. Jamie managed to create two chances for himself, a pity that he does not have the capability to shoot, but that is not expected from him. Le Tallec seemed to be completely out of his depth today, not able to keep possession at all and make any half-decent passes. Baros was lack-lustre as there seemed to be a gulf between the midfield and the attack, and his combination play with Morientes, who is at the sunset of his career, was non-existent. Morientes may get the odd goal but he is not a world beater. Hyppia is too slow and this showed against Johnson. Dudek couldn’t be faulted for the goal.


So, in this game, Benitez played 5 at the back to accomodate Pellegrino. The team would have been better with an empty space. With Johnson up front and fast, Liverpool were at times stretched at the back and it was impossible for Carragher to cover both Hyppia and Pellegrino who both are notably slow.

Pretty much any 11 players that are deemed good enough to play for Liverpool should be capable of beating Palace. Regardless of formation, players werent trying.

Guy:Incognito

Emmo wrote:

Yeah sure thing.

I reckon to be called a success he needs to play 35+ games next season and score at least 15 goals.

Thats more than a goal every 3 games?

Hows that?

Emmo

It's very unlikely he'll play 35 games, not many players do. Most get injured, suspended or rested during the season.

midget lord

redspider wrote:

I dont want people to take what I have said out of context. I agree that many other Liverpool players were at fault at times for letting Liverpool down last season in away matches: Garcia, Gerrard, Baros and I dont think Morientes was spectacular away. The players weren't helped by the formation selections either, such as 5-4-1 and 4-5-1 so Benitez has culpability too.

I got to here and didnt read anymore. Rafa wont he champions league with 4-5-1, so its good enough for the premiership too. The main problem with last season was the squad depth. We got injuries to key players at key times during the season which, together with poor performances from some players. You had an issue with 4-5-1 during the season too, has the sucess in istanbul not changed your mind?

Emmo

Stekelly wrote:

It's very unlikely he'll play 35 games, not many players do. Most get injured, suspended or rested during the season.

25 games in League
5 games in Europe
5 games else where?

35?

Is that very unobtainable?

Emmo

PHB

Rafa wont(sic) he champions league with 4-5-1, so its good enough for the premiership too.

That is just flatly untrue.
In every single CL game the other team were trying to beat Liverpool.
In the majority of premiership games the other teams will be trying to draw with Liverpool.
Thus the 4-5-1 will just not work over a long period, and Rafa knows this.
Liverpool don't play a 4-5-1 like Chelsea or Man U do, they play it like LIverpool and it is pre-dominatly defensive in nature. This does not work against lower quality teams beacuse they are happy for Liverpool to be defensive, cause it means they can get a draw.
Also the only time I've seen Liverpool play good this year is when they were the underdogs, they won't be the underdogs against any of the teams lower than 7th(really 5th but for arguments sake) place next year.

Emmo

did you see us away at Westbrom, home to west Brom, home to Everton, home to Norwich. I disagree. Besides Rafa's team do not play 4-5-1

Everton played 4-5-1, so did Bolton.

Rafa's team play 4-2-3-1. Huge difference for anyone who knows or has even played the two set ups.

In the final we played 3-2-4-1 which is a variant of that line up. Those are the only two line ups we will play

4-2-3-1 and 3-2-4-1

Emmo

Guy:Incognito

Emmo wrote:

25 games in League
5 games in Europe
5 games else where?

35?

Is that very unobtainable?

Emmo

Redspider was talking about the league, so I assumed everyone was on the same wavelenght.

Emmo

we where talking about Moro being a hit next season.

Surely that shouldnt be just limitied to the league?

Emmo

Chucky the tree

redspider wrote:

If he is not going to be starting material, then dont take him. He does cost money in terms of salary. Never take a dud, even if "free".

So managers should never buy a player unless they will be starters? Thats crazy thinking.

One of liverpools main problems is lack squad cover. Lets say we never bought nunez, who would of played instead? Potter? I think i would of taken Nunez aswell then.

Every players cost us points to miss out on fourth. The way your going on about pellegrino you'd think we where winning the league up until he was signed.

Chucky the tree

PHB wrote:

That is just flatly untrue.
In every single CL game the other team were trying to beat Liverpool.
.

Now that is just flatly untrue. Did you watch any of are home group matches? Doesnt seem like it. The leverkusen match? We even started the juve match to win.

PHB

Thats not what I said.
I didn't say Liverpool didn't start the matches to win, I said the other team didn't.

Lex Luthor

Is this not a thread about Liverpool signings & General Rumours?

Forget about last season and picking bits & pieces about it. Pellegrino is gone. Let's hope Rafa gets us more competitive next year in the PL.

tel922001

http://www.bootroom.org/forum/portal.php?topic_id=5528

id agree why rafa done tihngs the way he did, see what other liverpool fans think

midget lord

PHB wrote:

That is just flatly untrue.

opinions mate.

Rafa's preferred formation, 4-5-1, has brought him success in pretty much every competition available to him. The reason it didnt bring league success last year is that we dont have an orthodox 'in the hole' player. Garcia played there on a couple of occasions last year, but with our injury problems and squad depth, he didnt get to play there as often as rafa would have liked. For most of the season were were also without a first choice striker, and while playing 4-5-1 can cause obvious problems.

The european game has moved onto this formation, most of the bigger teams around europe play this system, arsenal have employed it for a number of seasons to great effect in the UK. The central '5' is generally a traditional 4 with an advanced 1, ala bergkamp, and Rooney of late and is something we will see more and more of over the next few premiership seasons.

PHB wrote:

Thus the 4-5-1 will just not work over a long period, and Rafa knows this.
Liverpool don't play a 4-5-1 like Chelsea or Man U do, they play it like LIverpool and it is pre-dominatly defensive in nature. This does not work against lower quality teams beacuse they are happy for Liverpool to be defensive, cause it means they can get a draw.
Also the only time I've seen Liverpool play good this year is when they were the underdogs, they won't be the underdogs against any of the teams lower than 7th(really 5th but for arguments sake) place next year.

Your still in the Houllier days mate. Liverpool were one of the top scorers in last seasons CL group stages. We scored 52 goals in the league, or 1.37 per game last term, and that was without a first choice striker for quite a portion of that. Of the 38 games we failed to score in an incredible 13, but, again, we created bucketfulls of chances in each of those games, but failed to convert. (If i was to be pedantic i could argue that [38-13 FTS = 25] 52/25 = 2.08 goals per game, but i wont ) This is not defensive mate, it inconsistency in attack. We created a hatfull of chances in most of our poor results last term, the difficulties were, again, in squad depth as our striker were injured, or not on form (See Baros from X-mas). A fully fit Lord Cisse and Morientes should make a difference next season. Also if we add Kuyt he will weigh in a with a few.

tel922001

Confirmed owen has gone to united for £14 million