Liverpool Signings and General Rumours Thread

~Rebel~ · 21-06-2005 9:36am

Realistically in most league games there is absolutely no reason not to have 2 up front. We have the players between Morientes, Cisse and Baros +1 so why not. Everyone's opting for this stupid 1 up front tactic thats all well and good if you dont have the players but we do and should be going out to beat all the bottom half fodder comfortably. A 4 man defence with alonso and /or Didi protecting with Gerard going box to box is more then enough cover against most of the teams that provide little going forward with their own 1 up front formations. fair enough for Europe and the big league games it pays to be cautious but not against Sunderland. Barring serious injury odds are at least one of our strikers will have a good season and put away all the chances we were creating closer to the start of the season with our attacking play.

~Rebel~ · 21-06-2005 9:39am

tel922001 wrote:

Confirmed owen has gone to united for £14 million

Source? Checked ManuUtd.com and no mention..also nothing on skysports.com or football365..

midget lord · 21-06-2005 9:42am

*looks suspiciously at tel[insert number sequence here]*

~Rebel~ · 21-06-2005 9:48am

Is this some sort of inside information? or just spoof...still no mention anywhere..

tel922001 · 21-06-2005 10:11am

its my story, this thread is suppose to be about transfers and rumours, and all ye are talking about is pelligrino and 4-4-2 ans 5-4-1 crap,

Lex Luthor · 21-06-2005 10:12am

tel922001 wrote:

Confirmed owen has gone to united for £14 million

I know this is a rumour thread, but this is going way beyond a joke

tel922001 · 21-06-2005 10:15am

does it matter if owen went to united, they can have him, he stabbed us in the back cause he wanted better things, bit him in the ass hasnt it? rafa wont take him back and personally i dont want him, so let the little winger piss off to some other club, yes he is good but he walked away when he was needed most and sadly he doesnt have a champions league medal, so can we get on with the liverpool new, the most important news of all and rumours

redspider · 21-06-2005 10:24am

Yes, I agree there is no point debating too much what happened last year. Pellegrino came, he didnt conquer, now he is gone.

We can though, in general, use seasons-past as a learning source for next season and future seasons. The debate about formations is a continuous one, because no matter what a manager does with his players, a descriptive term such as 4-5-1 can never fully describe what is actually happening on the pitch. This was discussed in another thread during the season.

I think like some others that we need to play with two natural strikers. One alternative is to play with a striker and a player that can fill the hole, such as in a 4-4-1-1 formation. If the idea is to use two covering midfielders, such as Alonso and Hamman more so, then the formation is something like 4-2-2-1-1 and could look something like this:

G

RB --- CB --- CB ---- LB
---- M

M

M --

F

I think for most games in the league, it should be like a 4-4-2 system, with 2 strikers. Many created chances are needed to win the games against the weaker opposition. Yes, 4-2-2-1-1 can be used in games against tough opposition and in some away games. The radical 3-2-4-1 or 3-2-3-2 system used in the CL final is a full-on system with risk, ideal for when you are 3-0 down with all to play for and if you have the right players on the pitch (ie: Hamann and not Kewell), but a do-or-die formation and not one that can be played week in and week out.

Of course formations are fluid, players move around and are not static, so you get overloading on one side of the pitch, and then maybe 10 mins later overloading on the other side of the pitch. Some managers are big fans of just attacking down the same side all the time.

In general, I think that Garcia has tried filling the hole role. It is his best position because he is a not a good central midfielder or an all-out striker. He's not a brilliant passer of the ball, his percentage success rate is low, but he has a good footballing brain and tries intricate manouevers and moves. I think Benitez is shaping the team around him. Given that, Benitez still has the option of playing 1 or 2 natural strikers (Cisse, Baros, Morientes, a new signing). With 2 up front, that leaves 3 midfielders and a Garcia role, which is the 4-4-2.

The question of depth of squad is raised, but there is no need to get duds. Liverpool, like all top teams, need 23 top quality players, 2 for each position in the chosen system and systems, some flexibility is needed, and 3 goalies.

Looking at Chelsea, they play with two wingers in a front 3 formation where the wingers dont run out wide and cross but instead run at an angle towards goal, ala Henry. Man U use Ronaldo a lot and have Rooney playing in the hole ready to strike anything that half sits up for him. Liverpool dont have a winger at the moment, no Steve Heighway. We've had to rely on wing-backs promote to midfield positions, such as Riise and Finnan. Kewell didnt cut it and neither did Nunez. We can get by with some work by Riise/Finnan, even Traore got a cross in or two last season, and with some good passing by Alonso and Gerrard.

It will be interesting to see Benitez's style and structure for next season ad whether he has the players to fit in it, whether he uses a winger at all. Liverpool have many missing parts at the moment, anf fraillities in many areas.
I've heard he's looking for a goalie but with Dudek, Carson and Kirkland, they all seem reasonable. They can all have their off moments but they are not weak links in the team imo. In defence, Hyppia is now too slow, so we need a new CB. When Diao played their last year, he is sold now I think, he was very good. For midfield, I would get one good winger, left side or right side doesnt matter, but we need at least one good one. We could get a new LB and replace Traore, or a left winger and have Riise move back and keep Traore as a squad player. The 23-man squad could then look something like this:

G: Dudek, Kirkland, Carson
RB: Finnan, Josemi
CB: Carragher, Hyppia, Traore, VACANT
LB: Risse, (Whitbread/VACANT)
M: Hamann, Gerrard, Alonso, Garcia, ?, ?, ?, ?
F: Cisse, (Baros/VACANT), Morientes, (Pongolle/VACANT)

I think any player that is 23 years old (ie: is now fully developed as a player) and if he hasnt got into the above squad, they should be sold off. The young players 17-22 years old can be kept on, but there should also only be 23 of them and they should play the same system.

The other thing to have are options on formations. Like any sport, if you can keep the opposition guessing, then you have an advantage. So playing the exact same formation week in and week out is good on the one hand for player familiarity, but oppostion teams will kop on to it. Thats why for example, Liverpool had relative success against Chelsea last year as the Liverpool formation was able to stop Chelea's threat and was also good enough to create chances on its own.

I expect the signings to start happening rather quickly at the end, but perhaps there will be fewer than we think. Liverpool need players though, and that is something perhaps we can all agree on.

Redspider

PHB · 21-06-2005 10:33am

redspider,
you guys seem to be misinterpreting what I'm saying.
I@m noy saing they don't score lots, or are a ****e 11 man in the box team, I'm saying they set up their game for defense with counter attacks.
Liverpool are a defensive team, but it doesn't mean they can't score a lot of goals in games.
What it does mean however is that you rely on bits of individual skill to score goals, more than just simple passing it around and 'working' and opening.

eg.

Chelsea goal - due to a sublime pass by Gerrard, pure brilliance

AC Milan goal - Smicer's long range perfect strike
AC Milan goal - Gerrards individual driving run

Chelsea even have the same thign to an extent, they rely on some magic from Robben and Duff.
Without it, they don't have the 'working' ability that ARsenal have to break down defense's, you could see it vs. Liverpool.

The problem is that the magic won't always come against lower placed teams, especially since they are perfectly willing not to move their players outside the 30 yard line for 90 minutes

So Liverpool's greatest strength, which is defending, is now useless, and the formation isn't allowing a great attack.
4-5-1(4-3-3) can only work against ****e teams if you have an ungodly talented two wide men.
Robben and Duff did it this year
Rooney and Ronaldo couldn't do it this year.
Garcia and Riise won't do it next year.

Personally I think LIverpool should sell Gerrard for 40 million pounds, they will get it.
When he is gone, you can see how good some of the players in your team really are, and you can replace. I think it will be good for Liverpool in the long run as you could buy up to 6/7 new players with that money, and it will do what Rooney leaving Everton did to Everton, the lack of reliance on one man

redspider · 21-06-2005 10:42am

PHB wrote:

redspider,
you guys seem to be misinterpreting what I'm saying.
I@m noy saing they don't score lots, or are a ****e 11 man in the box team, I'm saying they set up their game for defense with counter attacks.
Liverpool are a defensive team, but it doesn't mean they can't score a lot of goals in games.
What it does mean however is that you rely on bits of individual skill to score goals, more than just simple passing it around and 'working' and opening.

eg.

Chelsea goal - due to a sublime pass by Gerrard, pure brilliance

AC Milan goal - Smicer's long range perfect strike
AC Milan goal - Gerrards individual driving run

Chelsea even have the same thign to an extent, they rely on some magic from Robben and Duff.
Without it, they don't have the 'working' ability that ARsenal have to break down defense's, you could see it vs. Liverpool.

The problem is that the magic won't always come against lower placed teams, especially since they are perfectly willing not to move their players outside the 30 yard line for 90 minutes
So Liverpool's greatest strength, which is defending, is now useless, and the formation isn't allowing a great attack.
4-5-1(4-3-3) can only work against ****e teams if you have an ungodly talented two wide men.
Robben and Duff did it this year
Rooney and Ronaldo couldn't do it this year.
Garcia and Riise won't do it next year.

Personally I think LIverpool should sell Gerrard for 40 million pounds, they will get it.
When he is gone, you can see how good some of the players in your team really are, and you can replace. I think it will be good for Liverpool in the long run as you could buy up to 6/7 new players with that money, and it will do what Rooney leaving Everton did to Everton, the lack of reliance on one man

I'll come back to you later in the day. I agree with the thrust of what you are saying.

Just read:

Uefa have confirmed that Liverpool have been seeded for the first two qualifying rounds of the UEFA Champions League.

The draw is to be made on Friday in Nyon, Switzerland - with 24 clubs in the hat for the first qualifying round.

Holders Liverpool, given special dispensation to enter the competition despite finishing their domestic campaign in fifth, face an early start to the new campaign as the first round first legs are to be played on July 12/13.

The return games are scheduled for 19/20 July, with the second qualifying round following on 26/27 July and 2/3 August.

Twelve of the teams entered into the draw will be seeded, with Liverpool now guaranteed to be seeded again should they progress past the first stage.

In the second qualifying round, 16 further clubs will enter the draw and they will all be seeded bar three entrants.

midget lord · 21-06-2005 11:01am

redspider wrote:

Yes, I agree there is no point debating too much what happened last year. Pellegrino came, he didnt conquer, now he is gone.

We can though, in general, use seasons-past as a learning source for next season and future seasons. The debate about formations is a continuous one, because no matter what a manager does with his players, a descriptive term such as 4-5-1 can never fully describe what is actually happening on the pitch. This was discussed in another thread during the season.

I think like some others that we need to play with two natural strikers. One alternative is to play with a striker and a player that can fill the hole, such as in a 4-4-1-1 formation. If the idea is to use two covering midfielders, such as Alonso and Hamman more so, then the formation is something like 4-2-2-1-1 and could look something like this:
G
RB --- CB --- CB ---- LB
---- M
M
M
M --
F
F

I think for most games in the league, it should be like a 4-4-2 system, with 2 strikers. Many created chances are needed to win the games against the weaker opposition. Yes, 4-2-2-1-1 can be used in games against tough opposition and in some away games. The radical 3-2-4-1 or 3-2-3-2 system used in the CL final is a full-on system with risk, ideal for when you are 3-0 down with all to play for and if you have the right players on the pitch (ie: Hamann and not Kewell), but a do-or-die formation and not one that can be played week in and week out.

Of course formations are fluid, players move around and are not static, so you get overloading on one side of the pitch, and then maybe 10 mins later overloading on the other side of the pitch. Some managers are big fans of just attacking down the same side all the time.

In general, I think that Garcia has tried filling the hole role. It is his best position because he is a not a good central midfielder or an all-out striker. He's not a brilliant passer of the ball, his percentage success rate is low, but he has a good footballing brain and tries intricate manouevers and moves. I think Benitez is shaping the team around him. Given that, Benitez still has the option of playing 1 or 2 natural strikers (Cisse, Baros, Morientes, a new signing). With 2 up front, that leaves 3 midfielders and a Garcia role, which is the 4-4-2.

The question of depth of squad is raised, but there is no need to get duds. Liverpool, like all top teams, need 23 top quality players, 2 for each position in the chosen system and systems, some flexibility is needed, and 3 goalies.

Looking at Chelsea, they play with two wingers in a front 3 formation where the wingers dont run out wide and cross but instead run at an angle towards goal, ala Henry. Man U use Ronaldo a lot and have Rooney playing in the hole ready to strike anything that half sits up for him. Liverpool dont have a winger at the moment, no Steve Heighway. We've had to rely on wing-backs promote to midfield positions, such as Riise and Finnan. Kewell didnt cut it and neither did Nunez. We can get by with some work by Riise/Finnan, even Traore got a cross in or two last season, and with some good passing by Alonso and Gerrard.

It will be interesting to see Benitez's style and structure for next season ad whether he has the players to fit in it, whether he uses a winger at all. Liverpool have many missing parts at the moment, anf fraillities in many areas.
I've heard he's looking for a goalie but with Dudek, Carson and Kirkland, they all seem reasonable. They can all have their off moments but they are not weak links in the team imo. In defence, Hyppia is now too slow, so we need a new CB. When Diao played their last year, he is sold now I think, he was very good. For midfield, I would get one good winger, left side or right side doesnt matter, but we need at least one good one. We could get a new LB and replace Traore, or a left winger and have Riise move back and keep Traore as a squad player. The 23-man squad could then look something like this:

G: Dudek, Kirkland, Carson
RB: Finnan, Josemi
CB: Carragher, Hyppia, Traore, VACANT
LB: Risse, (Whitbread/VACANT)
M: Hamann, Gerrard, Alonso, Garcia, ?, ?, ?, ?
F: Cisse, (Baros/VACANT), Morientes, (Pongolle/VACANT)

I think any player that is 23 years old (ie: is now fully developed as a player) and if he hasnt got into the above squad, they should be sold off. The young players 17-22 years old can be kept on, but there should also only be 23 of them and they should play the same system.

The other thing to have are options on formations. Like any sport, if you can keep the opposition guessing, then you have an advantage. So playing the exact same formation week in and week out is good on the one hand for player familiarity, but oppostion teams will kop on to it. Thats why for example, Liverpool had relative success against Chelsea last year as the Liverpool formation was able to stop Chelea's threat and was also good enough to create chances on its own.

I expect the signings to start happening rather quickly at the end, but perhaps there will be fewer than we think. Liverpool need players though, and that is something perhaps we can all agree on.

Redspider

Lad, you have too much time on your hands.

~Rebel~ · 21-06-2005 11:30am

PHB wrote:

When he is gone, you can see how good some of the players in your team really are, and you can replace. I think it will be good for Liverpool in the long run as you could buy up to 6/7 new players with that money, and it will do what Rooney leaving Everton did to Everton, the lack of reliance on one man

Oddly both last year and this year the opta stats show liverpool have been more successful without Gerrard then with him! Didn't bother looking for the ones i saw last year but were much the same as this years;

2004-05

With Gerrard

Without Gerrard
Games

30

8
Wins

12

5
Draws

6

1
Losses

12

2
Goals For

36

16
Average Goals For

1.2

2
Goals Against

32

9
Average Goals Against

1.07

1.12
Win %

40%

62%
Points per game

1.40

2.00

odd eh? Would personally like to seehim at the club but at the same time wouldn't be the end of the world at all if he was sold for megabucks.

Mitch Connor · 21-06-2005 11:38am

IMO, Gerrard is over-rated. He should be sold to the highest bidder and the liverpool side should be built around Xabi Alonso, who is a far better player then gerrard.

midget lord · 21-06-2005 11:40am

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHRDHlahsf;asjdhfsjdfh;ksjgh;aslkgj;alskfj;laksfj;lkasfj;l

~Rebel~ · 21-06-2005 12:50pm

ummmm you ok there Midget Lord?

*pokes Midget Lord with stick..*

Lex Luthor · 21-06-2005 12:50pm

~Rebel~ wrote:

Oddly both last year and this year the opta stats show liverpool have been more successful without Gerrard then with him! Didn't bother looking for the ones i saw last year but were much the same as this years;

2004-05
With Gerrard
Without Gerrard
Games
30
8
Wins
12
5
Draws
6
1
Losses
12
2
Goals For
36
16
Average Goals For
1.2
2
Goals Against
32
9
Average Goals Against
1.07
1.12
Win %
40%
62%
Points per game
1.40
2.00

odd eh? Would personally like to seehim at the club but at the same time wouldn't be the end of the world at all if he was sold for megabucks.

stats don't lie, but I'd like to see what team/formation was put out when gerrard was/was not playing, as they could also play a role in the stats above.
He does make my blood boil some time going for that killer pass that Houllier used to encourage him to do, but Rafa seems to have curbed.

midget lord · 21-06-2005 2:03pm

Tauren wrote:

IMO, Gerrard is over-rated. He should be sold to the highest bidder and the liverpool side should be built around Xabi Alonso, who is a far better player then gerrard.

I think im ok now. This type of 'opinion' drives me fcuking bonkers. Tauren really doesnt know his football if he thinks gerrard is over rated. It just ****in infuriates me.

PHB · 21-06-2005 2:13pm

Gerrard is a world class player and I'd kill to have him in the United team.

redspider · 21-06-2005 2:50pm

PHB wrote:

redspider, you guys seem to be misinterpreting what I'm saying.
I@m noy saing they don't score lots, or are a ****e 11 man in the box team, I'm saying they set up their game for defense with counter attacks.
Liverpool are a defensive team, but it doesn't mean they can't score a lot of goals in games. What it does mean however is that you rely on bits of individual skill to score goals, more than just simple passing it around and 'working' and opening.
Chelsea even have the same thign to an extent, they rely on some magic from Robben and Duff. Without it, they don't have the 'working' ability that ARsenal have to break down defense's, you could see it vs. Liverpool.
The problem is that the magic won't always come against lower placed teams, especially since they are perfectly willing not to move their players outside the 30 yard line for 90 minutes
So Liverpool's greatest strength, which is defending, is now useless, and the formation isn't allowing a great attack.
Personally I think LIverpool should sell Gerrard for 40 million pounds, they will get it. When he is gone, you can see how good some of the players in your team really are, and you can replace.

Yes, I agree that the Liverpool players are better against the top teams where Liverpool will have to defend than when they have to chase the game and attack against the lesser teams, but I would caveat that with the following. 1) Liverpool players raised their game for the big CL matches, starting with Olympiacos 2) the formation selections for some of the league away games didnt have the players on the field or the formation to chase the game and attack, hence asking for trouble

Liverpool did show two instances of when they can really get at teams. That was in the 2-0 1st half/25 mins against Juventus, and when 0-3 down against Milan in the CL final. If only they could do that all the time, then they would indeed be brilliant, but alas the players do not have the mental motivation to do that all the time, nor the fitness levels.

They did ok at home against some of the lesser teams. A small bit of "magic" was enough to unpick those teams and the players were happy to play at Anfield but we didnt have a Robben or a Duff. The players were always lethargic and uncomfortable away from home, especially after a CL match.

I think that if Gerrard is being valued at 40m stg (over 60m eur) then he would have to be sold as that could buy Liverpool many key players that are missing from their setup. But quality would need to be brought in, rather than quantity. If he is valued at 35m, that leaves less to purchase. Also salaries have to be brought into the equation.

To keep in line with the thread subject matter, I read on Sky that Real are thinking about putting in an offer for Gerrard, so agents are discussing I expect. Maybe Bannor knows more. Its up to the lad himself if he wants to leave. There is only one trophy he has yet to win at Liverpool and that is the premeirship, and who knows, maybe after two years in Spain he could come back and win that with Liverpool who may be in a better shape by them. Owen is also at Real and may stay. I'm sure that Benitez has a value on Gerrard, as do the Liverpool owners so if Real or whoever are willing to pay more than that and the player wants to go then he probably should go, a win-win situation for all. But Liverpool will have to have replacement players lined up ready to bring in .... maybe a lot of domino falling will happen after all.

As for midget:
~~~ goes over to midget, presses reset button, the console comes back up with error 376, bad CPU, needs replacement. ~~~~

Redspider

Drag00n79 · 21-06-2005 3:41pm

~Rebel~ wrote:

Oddly both last year and this year the opta stats show liverpool have been more successful without Gerrard then with him! Didn't bother looking for the ones i saw last year but were much the same as this years;

2004-05
With Gerrard
Without Gerrard
Games
30
8
Wins
12
5
Draws
6
1
Losses
12
2
Goals For
36
16
Average Goals For
1.2
2
Goals Against
32
9
Average Goals Against
1.07
1.12
Win %
40%
62%
Points per game
1.40
2.00

odd eh? Would personally like to seehim at the club but at the same time wouldn't be the end of the world at all if he was sold for megabucks.

Statistics like these need more clarification. For example, who was the opposition in the eight matches in which he did not feature? Otherwise these stats are a bit pointless. For what it's worth, I think we will need Gerrard next season and would not like to see him leave.

Guy:Incognito · 21-06-2005 4:45pm

~Rebel~ wrote:

Oddly both last year and this year the opta stats show liverpool have been more successful without Gerrard then with him! Didn't bother looking for the ones i saw last year but were much the same as this years;

2004-05
With Gerrard
Without Gerrard
Games
30
8
Wins
12
5
Draws
6
1
Losses
12
2
Goals For
36
16
Average Goals For
1.2
2
Goals Against
32
9
Average Goals Against
1.07
1.12
Win %
40%
62%
Points per game
1.40
2.00

odd eh? Would personally like to seehim at the club but at the same time wouldn't be the end of the world at all if he was sold for megabucks.

I'm not Gerrards biggest fan and think he is overrated but you cant compare a run of 30 games to a run of 8 games. If he had played 19 and missed 19 then you would have a clearer indication. Plus Gerrard played in most of the big matches (UTD, Arsenal & Chelsea) did he not?

Chucky the tree · 21-06-2005 7:53pm

redspider wrote:

I've heard he's looking for a goalie but with Dudek, Carson and Kirkland, they all seem reasonable. They can all have their off moments but they are not weak links in the team imo. hen look something like this:

I think any player that is 23 years old (ie: is now fully developed as a player) and if he hasnt got into the above squad, they should be sold off. The young players 17-22 years old can be kept on, but there should also only be 23 of them and they should play the same system.

Redspider

Are goalies are all crap, dudek is useless, no team will ever win a premiership with him in goal. Delgithed we(not done yet but fingers crossed) we are getting reina.

Players only phyisically develop at 23, they dont peak until 27 or 28. No player under 23 should be on the team unless he is an exceptional talent.

PHB · 21-06-2005 8:06pm

People keep doing this, looking at Reyes, Rooney, Ronaldo, Robben, Fabregas and go, hey he is 20 and hes good.
Then they look at the other 20 year olds and judge them by the same standerds.
The majority of players reach their peak around 27, as will the previously mentioned players, its just these guys have developed very very early.
Nunez could be a world beater in 3 years, you just have to give him time to develop

el rabitos · 21-06-2005 8:22pm

as far as i know timo hilderbrand is a free agent, awsome keeper and young.

reina is a good solid keeper, but worth 8 million? i dont think so. not for me anyway.

my choice would be sebastian frey, he wants out at parma and he has alot of experience for a 25 year old. and i dont think he'll cost as much as 8 million.

money + dudek for kuyt, kirkland loaned out, and new keeper with carson as our 2 keepers for the season = ideal

Chucky the tree · 21-06-2005 8:28pm

i dunno. If frey cant even get a place ahead of Barthez on the French team i dont think he is good enough.

PiE · 21-06-2005 8:39pm

Should buy Deisler

el rabitos · 21-06-2005 9:01pm

Should buy Deisler

quiet you :rolleyes:

i dunno. If frey cant even get a place ahead of Barthez on the French team i dont think he is good enough.

frey, coupet and landraeu are both superior french keepers.

kahn still plays for germany, doesnt make him better that hildebrand or lemon.

as far as the spanish keepers out there, reina is in the top 3. so i wouldnt be against seeing him with us nxt year, i just dont think he's worth 8 million at this stage. 5 mill would be reasonable

Pepe LeFrits · 21-06-2005 10:26pm

Hildebrand signed a new contract about a month or two ago. Frey is very overrated, he's been linked to every club under the sun for years but nobody has shown interest. His team were nearly relegated from Serie A this season and he didn't even start in either UEFA cup semi final leg; he also seems to be way down the pecking order for France.

Bannor · 21-06-2005 11:07pm

There's no truth to the Gerrard to Madrid stories. There has been contact with Madrid from SFX, but that's to use as a bargaining chip with Parry and Benitez. Owen has warned Gerrard off of going to Madrid several times. The story is being lead by the two Spanish newspapers AS and Marca - there hasn't been any big transfer news in Spain so they have to find some way of selling newspapers and Steven Gerrard is the story. The UK press are just regurgitating the stories that appear in the Spanish press. The photograph with Guti was a staged photograph, both players were staying at the same resort - there were also several other players there but the Spanish press only published the photo of Guti and Gerrard because it gave them a story to run until some real news happens.

el rabitos · 22-06-2005 1:26am

i'm starting to wonder if rafa is allowing the deadline for the 1st round of champions league to have a bearing on his transfers. theres less than 10 days before the deadline, with a fair few signings actaully needed, i would have thought there would be some more concrete rumblings going on in regards to incoming transfers

applehunter · 22-06-2005 1:44am

Liverpool should sign Duff from Chelsea. He is a good left-sided player. He was with Blackburn before he signed for Chelsea. Only negative is that he is prone to injury of late.

Of course Houllier could have signed him pre-World Cup 2002 for €10m, but he decided to sign Diouf. What a FAt French Frog. He is probably worth €14/15 million now.

Liverpool are still a v. ordinary side, Champions League or not.

woodyg · 22-06-2005 7:41am

I think Rafa is making sure he gets the players he wants and not rush out an buy make weights because of the deadline for round 1.

It's allways quite at this time in the transfer market end of july to end of August is where the fun happens.

The 1 player i really do hope we get is Aimar.

Been watchin a good bit of the confederation cup and he has really impressed me. He has that little bit of bite/edge about him wish would really help out in the league

Big Nelly · 22-06-2005 8:09am

applehunter wrote:

Liverpool should sign Duff from Chelsea. He is a good left-sided player. He was with Blackburn before he signed for Chelsea. Only negative is that he is prone to injury of late.

Of course Houllier could have signed him pre-World Cup 2002 for €10m, but he decided to sign Diouf. What a FAt French Frog. He is probably worth €14/15 million now.

Liverpool are still a v. ordinary side, Champions League or not.

Never Blackburn!! u serious????

Prone to injury? how many games compared to Robben did Duff play? cant remember him missing too many!

I cant remember but hadnt Duff already signed his contract before World Cup with the 17mil clause in it that meant 10mil would have got Liverpool no where the same as what happened to Utd when they tried to sign before Chelseas.......

Duff worth 14/15? dont think so.....look closer to the 20million and over if you think SWP is valued at 20million and Duff is twice the player......

One point I do agree with you is that Liverpool are Ordinary but manager and spanish players have only had one season so far so will be better next!!

Lex Luthor · 22-06-2005 8:23am

el rabitos wrote:

frey, coupet and landraeu are both superior french keepers.

Just got my official Champions 2005 DVD in the post yesterday from Play.com

A quiet slot in the day, and I'll be sticking it on....

PHB · 22-06-2005 9:44am

Duff, it has been said by even Mourinho this year, is Chelsea's best player imo.
Terry is great, and Makelele is amazing, but Duff makes and scores a huge huge huge percetange of Chelsea goals, and if there was going to be a winger sold, it'd be Robben

tel922001 · 22-06-2005 9:46am

Liverpool will draw one of the following twelve unseeded teams on Friday:

FK Rabotnicki (Macedonia)
FC Dinamo Minsk (Belarus)
FC Pyunik (Armenia)
Sliema Wanderers (Malta)
KF Tirana (Albania)
FC Levadia Tallinn (Estonia)
Glentoran (Northern Ireland)
Total Network Solutions (Wales)
F91 Dudelange (Luxembourg)
PFC Neftchi (Azerbaijan)
HB Torshavn (Faroe Islands)
FC Kairat Almaty (Kazhakstan)

Who would you choose the pool to play , anyone ever heard of any of these, i think i heard at some point in my life there was a team called glentoran up the north not sure

redspider · 22-06-2005 10:01am

woodyg wrote:

I think Rafa is making sure he gets the players he wants and not rush out an buy make weights because of the deadline for round 1. It's allways quite at this time in the transfer market end of july to end of August is where the fun happens. The 1 player i really do hope we get is Aimar.

Its a game of cat and mouse for all parties concerned, teams, managers, players and agents. The "fun" though is already starting, now that players are starting to come back from holidays, and pre-season training, matches, tours and tournaments will get underway soon so deals will be happening weekly. Maybe there will be a rush in the week up to the deadline, is that in late August or early Sep?

So, Chelsea and Man U have made their first acquisitions.

What do people think of the Park signing for Man U at eur 12m? He's 24, its a four year deal with a salary of 3m pa. So, thats an all-in cost of 6m pa and 24m for the 4 years.

I am not sure about him. I think he's an ok player, but not extraordinary by any measure. He's also a utility player in that he works hard and can play midfield and up front, but he's not a goalscorer. Do people think he would have been an addition to the Liverpool team (1st squad of 23)? I think at that cost he would have been far too expensive for Liverpool.

Chelsea have also made their first move in what is analagous to a game of chess. 12m eur for the 24 year old spanish player del Horno, a left back, Chelsea's so-called weak position. A 3 year deal it seems, but I dont have any info on the reported salary. I dont know enough about him to comment, but I'm sure Benitez would know all about him. I dont know if he was a target or not for Liverpool and if Chelsea outbid Liverpool in terms of transfer fee and salary. Perhaps Benitez is not looking for a LB at all.

Biscan is on the way out, and Benitez is still talking up getting a new goalie. I realise that Dudek, Kirkland and Carson have faults, but GK is not the area on the pitch with the worst faults as far as I can see. I think we need to strengthen midfield. Aimar is a player with skill, but only at times, and it will depend on his workrate, which I dont think will be up to the pace for the English league.

Redspider

uberwolf · 22-06-2005 10:11am

@ Redspider
Benetiz envisages Riise being our left back if and when Kewell/a.n other provide quality on the left wing. The reason Traore is still around is that he was being played out of position all season and it'd be a bit harsh to cull him for that.

Branners · 22-06-2005 10:15am

Riise defo first choice man, troare is coming on good, i can see him being a quality centre half, coz his defensive skills are good, and he's a great tackler of the ball, just don't let him try and pass it around though, hes a bit of a donkey then!

redspider · 22-06-2005 10:20am

Bannor wrote:

There's no truth to the Gerrard to Madrid stories. There has been contact with Madrid from SFX, but that's to use as a bargaining chip with Parry and Benitez. Owen has warned Gerrard off of going to Madrid several times. The story is being lead by the two Spanish newspapers AS and Marca - there hasn't been any big transfer news in Spain so they have to find some way of selling newspapers and Steven Gerrard is the story. The UK press are just regurgitating the stories that appear in the Spanish press. The photograph with Guti was a staged photograph, both players were staying at the same resort - there were also several other players there but the Spanish press only published the photo of Guti and Gerrard because it gave them a story to run until some real news happens.

That makes sense Bannor. Players/Agents need to talk up their worth and attractiveness for other clubs in their negotiations. Gerrard eluded to the negotiations as "talks" even on the CL night itself when asked by the media if he would stay. Benitez I believe will sort out this will-he/wont-he situation once and for all, but like playing poker, he will have other cards in his hand to think about at the same time. I think that for Gerrard personally he should stay at Liverpool where he can be adored.

In terms of the stats that indicate "the opta stats show liverpool have been more successful without Gerrard then with him". I tend to agree with this, as by and large Gerrard did not play well in the away matches and Liverpool didnt either. Liverpool didnt miss him as much as the media would make out when he wasnt there, and some of this was mainly due to Alonso. I still think though that he should be a 1st-11 player, as in a good team he can only perform better. I think he can struggle when he feels all the pressure is on him to perform, and on many occasions last season I just couldnt get over his lack of application at times when he would literally walk and jog around the pitch. A motivated Gerard though in a motivated Liverpool team is the right combination I beleive, and he can fit in with Alonso, but when playing the best teams they will need a player like Hamann to play the covering position.

Redspider

~Rebel~ · 22-06-2005 10:24am

redspider wrote:

What do people think of the Park signing for Man U at eur 12m?

I thought he went for £4m..thats what heard on the radio. Or was that just a typo cause of the Del Horno 12m deal?
Looks a good player alright, though not sure if he will be strong enough on the ball, could have the same problems garcia has had i think, won't get the time he wants to do his funky sh!t. I do like him though, should be exciting to watch anyway.

In terms of transfers i'd be happy with even a bare minimum of 3 first teamers being bought. a versatile midfielder creative person like aimar would be perfect, could play on the general right side, with garcia playing more on the left (his favoured side) or else kewell on the left, garcia right, aimar behind striker. offers a lot of options and creativity i think and looks a great player!
Definately need 1 CB badly to cover/replace Hypia. Still think Hypia has a major part to play in coming season but just not quite the player he was.Milito has issued a come and get me so hopefully that should be that.
*All done assuming Riise will be Left Back next season, if not, then need to fill that role

Also would like a new goalkeeper. As you said Spider, its not a definate necessity, but i think it would be a major bonus. Dudek is always prone to the odd lapse, but besides that is a great keeper, just a bit of a penchant for the spectacular and a bit volatile. Kirkland is a good solid keeper alright, but the most injury prone man ever! Also, as reliable as he is to do what he does well, i just dont think he has the same ability other keepers do to pull off amazing wonder saves, which is fine. He'll do whats expected of him i think but not much more. Still very young though so loan deal could be a good idea.
Carson does look a great young keeper but far too young to throw in as number one for a season. So basically id like to see Reina come in and have a bash.

I've been thinking and im not sure there really is a need for a new striker, i mean the way it looks now Baros is staying. I think he could be a lot better with a consistant strike partner and some service closer to goal so he can do what he loves and run at it from a reasonable distance instead of well outside the box. Personally i think Cisse, Morientes, Baros and Pongolle should really be enough. Whatever people think of moro, he Will be better next season, even if its only a bit it would nearly be enough, he's so good in the air that with either of the other 2mains strikers could create a lot of goals. I think Lord Cisse is gonna have a flier next year though.

yes thats enough i think..

PHB · 22-06-2005 10:26am

Park was 4 million pounds. I honaslty don't know enough about him to say even if he can break into Man United first team, let alone liverpools.
---
Traore is being played out of position?
If thats the case then stop doing it

Kewell is a quality player and will shine through eventually, just give him another season or so

Ardent · 22-06-2005 10:34am

Zenden to Liverpool on a free apparently. Make sense.

redspider · 22-06-2005 10:38am

uberwolf wrote:

@ Redspider
Benetiz envisages Riise being our left back if and when Kewell/a.n other provide quality on the left wing. The reason Traore is still around is that he was being played out of position all season and it'd be a bit harsh to cull him for that.

I agree that Riise is a good left back option, but I think we also need a good quality LB for cover, and the quality left midfielder as you mention. Traore could be good as a central defender. Its not our must-have buy, but if Riise gets injured and Traore, are we effed?

I still think the 23-man sqad should look like this:

G: Dudek, Kirkland, Carson
RB: Finnan, Josemi
CB: Carragher, Hyppia, Traore, VACANT
LB: Risse, (Whitbread/VACANT)
M: Hamann, Gerrard, Alonso, Garcia, ?, ?, ?, ?
F: Cisse, (Baros/VACANT), Morientes, (Pongolle/VACANT)

"What do people think of the Park signing for Man U at eur 12m?"
"I thought he went for £4m"

Yes, he went for 4m stg, which is 6m eur approx, I got a bit ahead of myself there. That transfer fee with his 3m annual salary for 4 years is an investment of 4.5m eur per annum, or 18m over the 4 years.

Redspider

mike65 · 22-06-2005 10:47am

tel922001 wrote:

Liverpool will draw one of the following twelve unseeded teams on Friday:

FK Rabotnicki (Macedonia)
FC Dinamo Minsk (Belarus)
FC Pyunik (Armenia)
Sliema Wanderers (Malta)
KF Tirana (Albania)
FC Levadia Tallinn (Estonia)
Glentoran (Northern Ireland)
Total Network Solutions (Wales)
F91 Dudelange (Luxembourg)
PFC Neftchi (Azerbaijan)
HB Torshavn (Faroe Islands)
FC Kairat Almaty (Kazhakstan)

Who would you choose the pool to play , anyone ever heard of any of these, i think i heard at some point in my life there was a team called glentoran up the north not sure

None of them are going to trouble Pool but they must be praying to avoid FC Kairat Almaty (a lonnnnnnnnnnng 3 days) which means they'll get them! I'd like TNS to get them.

Mike.

PHB · 22-06-2005 10:54am

Redspider, if you went into adding every single wages and fees to the people you sign, Zenden wouldn't be coming on a free, he'd be coming for about 10 mill

woodyg · 22-06-2005 10:59am

id be very suprised if troare got near the 1st team this year. His positional sence for a defender is dreadful at times.
the only reason he does those tackles is because he gets him self into serious trouble.
the sign of a good defender especialy centere half is 1 that just always seems to be in the right spot with out seemingly makin any effort.

any 1 know how florent pongolle is getting on with his injury?
i think he could be a real talent given the chance he showed real promise at times last year and if not for his injury he would have been a real help in the leauge and euro's.
His return will be like signin a new player

woodyg · 22-06-2005 11:06am

yea TNS would be good would generate a lot of money for them i beleive it would be in the millennium stadium for there home leg so a crowd of 50,000 would be reachable so would provide TNS enough funds for the year.

~Rebel~ · 22-06-2005 11:32am

woodyg wrote:

florent pongolle...he could be a real talent given the chance he showed real promise at times last year and if not for his injury he would have been a real help in the leauge and euro's.
His return will be like signin a new player

I agree, looks a great player for the future, and together with cisse being back and Morientes hopefully a bit more on the ball should effectively be like 3 new players, baros was largely on his own last season, a role that just doesn't suit him imo, needs a partner.

Lex Luthor · 22-06-2005 12:36pm

don't forget about Mellor

Liverpool Signings and General Rumours Thread

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