Good source for veggie oil ?

peasant

Now that I've got my stone age technology diesel (no direct injection, no "pumpe-duese", no common rail) I'm thinking about running it on a veg oil / diesel mix.

I don't want to do the full conversion with pre-heaters and different injectors and all that ...just add 10 - 50% veg oil, depending on outside temperatures.

Not too keen on buying loads of 1 Liter bottles in Aldi or a 1000 Liter tank from an oil mill ...both are a bit unwieldy and difficult to manage.

I'm looking for a source where you could get the stuff in 10 or 20 Liter canisters, so that I could do my mixing at the filling station.

If that source was one with "legal" ..i.e. officially sanctioned bio fuel, all the better.

Anybody know of something ?

Seth Brundle

Chippers?

peasant

Naah ..thanks.
I'd prefer the filtered and refined stuff


On the other hand ...if anyone knows of anywhere where I could buy filtered and dehydrated used vegoil ...all the better.

rowanh

I think if you go to a chipper or any resraunt that uses oil all you have to do is take the 20L or whatever size and filter it through a pair or tights into a similar sized container. Could be you would be better filtering it a second time through a smaller screen.

I think you can get larger bottles of oil from tesco or maybe you could but they are not alloud to sell it anymore from people buying it for fuel. I think technically you are supposed to pay extra tax on veg oil if you are using it for fuel. If i was doing it id filter it myself, id say once you get used to doing it would be minor hassle. If its just a matter of setting up a funnel with a filter in it..


How muhc would you pay for filtered oil?

peasant

The problem with used veggie oil is not just bits of old chips swimming in it, but contamination.

There's water, animal fat, starch and all sorts of crud in it that home filtering won't remove. If you want to run on used oil you'd need to get it purified/refined, not just filtered through a pair of tights.

You'd be doing all sorts of damage to your fuel lines and injectors in the long run otherwise.


I'm aware of the tax implications with veg oil. Ideally I'm looking for a legal, taxed supply. The oil mills do that ...but only in large 1000 Liter tanks.

I don't have a forklift at home, so a big tank is a bit cumbersome.

Basically I'm looking for someone who has such a tank and would let me fill a canister or two every now and then ... (preferably in Sligo )

colm_mcm

cash and carry. just have o know someone in retail or catering, and ue their card. 20L drums, no problem!

peasant

Yes ..that would be a possibility, if a somewhat illegal one.

colm_mcm

illegal how?

peasant

Afaik you have to pay tax on veg oil if its used as fuel.

At least I read something about declaring your fuel use on one of the alternative fuel websites. (filling in forms etc)

I'm not 100% sure on this right now ...need to read up more ...


From the Eilish oils website:

As animal food the PPO is invoiced as the gross price. There is NO TAX (VAT) applied to FOOD.
As Process Oils used for various industrial uses, VAT is applied at 21%
As PPO-BioFuel you may use PPO-BioFuel without having to pay Mineral Oil Tax. The price is as Process Oils above, that is VAT is applied at 21%. In Addition we require you complete our Mineral Oil Tax Relief form when ordering so that we can account for our Mineral OII Tax (excise) exemption quota

rowanh

Are you sure about one not beign able to effectivly filter it at home. It was some time ago but im sure i read online that you can do it with no problems.

Would you not want to get it "illegally" from a moral point of view or fear of getting caught? Personally i wouldnt think twice about either, I think the goverment are morons charing fuel tax on it at all.

peasant

Morals? ...what morals?

I'm close to the border, hence "dipsticks" on the road are a regular occurrance.

I'm sure they'd get suspicious if you drive past, vaguely smelling of chips from the exhaust.

I'm not sure about the filtering of waste oil either ....you read up on this veggie stuff and everybody has a diverging form of the "truth" to offer.

I'd prefer waste oil, actually, as I'd be mixing with diesel anyway.

Maybe the greens will get into government and I'll be able to pester my local TD for a veg-oil fillingstation of my own :rolleyes:

peasant

just got a lengthy email from eilish oils (PPO suppliers) and the killer is in the last sentence which i'll quote here:

Please note : It is illegal in Ireland to use PPO-BioFuel in an unmodified diesel engine. As it is illegal for us as a licensed BioFuel manufacturer to sell PPO-BioFuel as a BioFuel for an unmodified diesel engine, pursuant to the conditions of The Department of Communications, Marine & Natural Resources, Mineral Oil-Tax Relief Scheme 1 & 2 as facilitated by the Irish Finance Act 1999, section 98A.

WTF is that all about ...you have an engine that can run on a percentage of biofuel without hassle and without modificatioon (i.e. without any additional cost !) and then they make it illegal to do so?

Almost all diesels could run 5-10% PPO, no problem. A good few thousand older ones could run up to 50% without conversion. Trucks and vans as well

That would make a bit of a dent in our carbon emissions ...but no ...our clever government rather makes this illegal and pays their Kyoto fine.

Where's the sense in that ?

Smells of rip off / big oil conspiracy to me

unkel

They're probably referring to "illegal" as they can't sell it to you because there is no mechanism for them to charge you excise duty

peasant wrote:

Where's the sense in that ?

Indeed. And then you get a huge discount in VRT when you buy a brand new petrol guzzler like a Lexus RX 400h :rolleyes:

peasant

Yepp ...this kind of absolutely nonsensical legislation really makes my blood boil.

I'm drafting my letter to the green party as we speak

(who knows ...they might end up in governement)

patrickc

sligtly off topic peasant but i heard it's possible to run my volvo s40 the same way is it true do you know?

peasant

I have no idea ...and factual information is hard to come by. Ask 5 people and you get 10 opinions.

Basically, the more technologically advanced the engine, the trickyer it gets to run it on veg oil or PPO (pure plant oil)

PPO is "thicker" than diesel, ignites a slightly higher temperatures and congeals at low temperatures.

Now, on a stone age diesel like mine with pre-chamber and a hefty single point injection pump that doesn't matter so much, especially if you want to drive a mix only (with high diesel content during winter). On a high tech common rail or pumpe-duese system with tricked out electronics you definetly need an adaptation to the system. Even if you want to run 100% on my yoke you need different injector nozzles and settings, different glow plugs, thicker fuel lines, uprated filters and a a pre-heater for the fuel line and injection pump.

As for your Volvo ...consult the relevant fora (it's a Renault engine, isn't it?)

peasant

peasant wrote:

That would make a bit of a dent in our carbon emissions ...but no ...our clever government rather makes this illegal and pays their Kyoto fine.

You could argue, since the oil was destined to be dumped and put out of the carbon cycle it is no better than mineral oil in this regard.

patrickc

peasant wrote:

As for your Volvo ...consult the relevant fora (it's a Renault engine, isn't it?)

yeh it's the Renault engine, it's not something I'd d if it meant loads of conversion, but if there was an easy way then I'd definitely try it. Theres a guy outside kilkenny has a sign up saying biofuel works in all diesels no conversion necessary and he charges 88.9 per litre. must stop and see what he has to say someday ..

peasant

patrickc2006 wrote:

yeh it's the Renault engine, it's not something I'd d if it meant loads of conversion, but if there was an easy way then I'd definitely try it. Theres a guy outside kilkenny has a sign up saying biofuel works in all diesels no conversion necessary and he charges 88.9 per litre. must stop and see what he has to say someday ..

just be careful you don't end up buying so called "bio-diesel" or rapeseed-methyl-ester (or whatever it's called chemically)

That stuff is so aggressive, it'll have every fuel line and seal in your system for breakfast. Before you know it you'll be leaking fuel from everywhere and may be looking at a very expensive engine ovehaul.

colly10

Illegal or not, if I was you id go for it if I thought id get away with it. This government actually charge tax on tax which is laughable. (Anyway your helping the environment)

It may be possible to filter used oil using a water filter (if you bought a few of them), it would be a bit slow though and I personally wouldn't go for it because you can't be 100% sure of the purity.

Try ringing a few of the crowds that supply catering company's or kitchens, your bound to find at least one of them that'll agree if you bought in proper bulk.

patrickc

peasant wrote:

just be careful you don't end up buying so called "bio-diesel" or rapeseed-methyl-ester (or whatever it's called chemically)

That stuff is so aggressive, it'll have every fuel line and seal in your system for breakfast. Before you know it you'll be leaking fuel from everywhere and may be looking at a very expensive engine ovehaul.

thanks peasant appreciate that advice..

3ps

peasant,

everybody is buying 1000l tanks from eilishoils but I believe there is a place buying it from them and selling in smaller quantities in south co. dublin, but the per litre price is obviously higher.

I am back to using it 10-20% in a car and I just stock up in Tesco where it is cheaper than Lidl/Aldi can comes in 3 litre containers. There are a few Tesco's nearby so for a week I just go to different ones and buy as many as i feel comfortable buying and it lasts me a good while!

Keep all your receipts in case you are stopped...so you can declare it all at the end of the year.

patrickc2006 you really need to be careful. You most likely have to buy a kit and have it installed (total cost about EUR2000) and even then there are lots of considerations.

Ring ecocar.ie or look up yoru engine on www.elsbett.com online shop

Also, there are specific standards that the likes of eilishoils have to meet. If you buy an oil from a chipper you never now what quality it is and it could harm your engine.

peasant

Thanks 3PS

I live in a one-tesco only area ...they'd soon get suspicious

Which car are you treating to the veg oil? The Peugeot? Or the Passat?
Ever tempted to try it in the Camper?

3ps

I am using it in the Pug. It has a Lucas pump but I think I will be OK at 10%.

I was going to put a proper kit into the Passat but have chickened out somewhat and have diverted the money to a different ecologically sound cause.

No I'm not putting it in the camper... it would need a kit and I can't justify the cost.

Am running a Vectra DTI on 30% approx Veg oil. No mods. I thought you only had to pay tax on the veg oil in the UK and it wasnt taxed here as a fuel.

Either way F*** em, I pay my car tax and the roads wreck my car and if I want to go to Galway I have to pay road tolls same with the airport. Tax my bum!

Was looking at the Elsbett kitt for 800 euro for the winter. On most cars the only mod is simply to add a fuel tank and heat the oil before it reaches the engine. Engines do not need to be re bored and injectors do not need to be modified. I unhooked the fuel lines and ran 100% veg oil and it was grand. The only thing is the oil unheated (i.e without mods) doesnt burn as efficiently as diesel so the oil seeps into the engine oil so if your running without the mods change the oil more regularly.

If you want to be even more environmentally friendly you could run it on Veg oil and up the turbo boost and compensate with an alcohol and water injection kit! Its next on my list after the elsbett kit! www.aquamist.co.uk

mkem

Hi Blindjustice, have a '99 vectra Di. Am very interested in running PPO in my car. When you say you run 30%. What oil do you use. And is there any specific way of doing this. Should I start off with say 10%, and increase gradually or what. Finally, would be grateful if you could tell me how you get on with your conversion when you get round to it. Thanks.

Fries-With-That

Information on used chipper oil,

Its illegal for any person operating a fast food outlet to dispose of their oil by giving it away to the ordinary everyday punter.

You have to sign up with one of the waste oil companies for collection on a monthly basis (usually).

I was paying about €15 for a 45 gallon drum 2 years ago but I hear that there is a new company operating in Ireland that collect for free then transport the oil north of the border and its then recycled into bio fuel.

On the filtering of waste oil its more than just soilds you have to worry about, a lot of fast food outlets use a powder in their filteration units. This further contaminates the oil, I don't believe that any home filtration system would remove this.

The powder is white like a talc but much finer.Its supposed to be safe for human consumption but I remember reading the techinal data and being advised not to breathe it in. So it seems you can eat it on your chips but ya can't have it in your lungs.

Further point of information many smaller fast food outlets don't use straight veg oil they use a half and half mix of lard and oil which would make the oil very gloopy when cool.

Regards,

Fries.