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04-06-2007 3:54pm#1
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Salam Beth! You're very welcome here on the Islam forum. Hope you've read the forum charter.
What an incredibly interesting thread!!! I love it when philosophy meets religion. I'd love to read some books on Islamic philosophy.
Anyway, if I understand your question correctly, you're asking how can a God who exists as One love? Is that right?
Well, first thing I'd like to say is that, from an Islamic point of view, you can't think of God in the same terms as a human being and make comparisons in that way. As a Muslim, the only accurate descriptions I can say about God are the ones He Himself uses in the Quran. As Wes already pointed out, God refers to Himself as being Merciful in the Quran a number of times. Some examples:
Al-Fatiha:1 (the very first verse in the Quran... and repeated at the start of almost every chapter)
"In the name of Allah, most Gracious, most Merciful"
Al-'Anam:12
"Say: "Unto whom belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth?" Say: "Unto God, who has willed upon Himself the law of grace and mercy. He will assuredly gather you all together on the Day of Resurrection, [the coming of] which is beyond all doubt: yet those who have squandered their own selves-it is they who refuse to believe [in Him],"
Al-'Anam:54
"And when those who believe in Our messages come unto thee, say: "Peace be upon you. Your Sustainer has willed upon Himself the law of grace and mercy - so that if any of you does a bad deed out of ignorance, and thereafter repents and lives righteously, He shall be [found] much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace."
Those last two verses are very significant in that they show how God has "willed upon Himself the law of grace and mercy". Al hamdlilAlah! (thank God!)
There's also a hadith (saying of the Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him)) that says that the Mercy in the whole universe is split into 100 parts. 99 parts are with God and the final part was distributed amongst His creation (rough translation).
As for loving, God refers to himself as Al-Wadud (The Loving One). The Arabic word Wid where the noun Al-Wadud comes from is a special kind of love. Some examples from the Quran:
Hud:90
" "But ask forgiveness of your Lord, and turn unto Him (in repentance): For my Lord is indeed full of mercy and loving-kindness." "
Al-Buruj:14
"And He is the Oft-Forgiving, Full of loving-Kindness,"
They are examples where He refers to Himself as The Loving One. Some other examples where the word hub (the frequently used word for love in the Arabic language):
Al-Baqara:95
"And spend [freely] in God's cause, and let not your own hands throw you into destruction; and persevere in doing good: behold, God loves the doers of good."
Al-Imran:31
"Say [O Prophet]: "If you love God, follow me, [and] God will love you and forgive you your sins; for God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace." "
Al-Imran:134
"who spend [in His way] in time of plenty and in time of hardship, and hold in check their anger, and pardon their fellow-men because God loves the doers of good;"
And there are other examples.
So, that way, we have established that as far as the Quran is concerned, God is loving and merciful.
If you don't mind me saying so and with all due respect, I don't think it's correct to say that God cannot love if He is One God. God is well capable of being able to love in His Unity.
And to draw an analogy (and of course God is beyond all example), would you say that if you were locked in a room alone, wouldn't you still be able to express love if you had another to love but the ability to love is still inside of you? Of course, that's not a perfect analogy but hopefully you know what I mean.
Probably the most interesting question of the thread. As a Muslim, I believe that God doesn't need humanity and He is fully Self-Sufficient. I don't think it's possible to answer the question completely unless you can have a one-on-one conversation with God. For me, it's enough to know that God is loving and I hope that He loves me... and you... and everyone here... everywhere40crush41 wrote:I think my problem lies in the fact that there is some sort of dependence for God upon humanity for Him to be able to express love.
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http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055095385 - We've discussed the oneness of Allah in this thread 0
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Thanks Suff & Beth for your nice comments. I try For sure, any goodness in that post of mine is thanks to God and any error in it is mine and mine alone.
To continue the discussion...
First thing I wanted to mention is that, unlike Christianity and other religions, we don't believe that we were created in God's image. We believe that it is impossible to fully comprehend or understand Him, that He is unlike anything we know and that the best information we have about Him is that which He tells us of Himself. I know I repeated myself a wee bit there from the last post. Sorry about that
Anyway, here's a chapter from the Quran expressing this.
Al-Ihklas
"Say: He is Allah, the One!
Allah, the eternally Besought of all!
He begetteth not nor was begotten.
And there is none comparable unto Him."
And another verse:
Ash-Shura:11
"(He is) the Creator of the heavens and the earth: He has made for you pairs from among yourselves, and pairs among cattle: by this means does He multiply you: there is nothing whatever like unto Him, and He is the One that hears and sees (all things)."
Going back to God and His love without creation. Well, as I said, we can't really know exactly how this goes without God telling us directly. I did manage to find a verse from the Quran that shows His self-sufficiency (there are many such verses).
Al-Hajj:64
"Unto Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth; and, verily, God - He alone - is self-sufficient, the One to whom all praise is due."
Think I've said all I can for now Once again, any error in this post is my own. 0 -
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You're welcome
I think that when it comes to understanding the Creator, neither Christianity nor Islam (nor any other religion for that matter) can claim that fully understanding Him is possible. As long as we can't fully understand Him then the percentage of not understanding is unknown and hence the percentage of knowing Him is unknown... if ya catch my drift? Therefore, respectfully, I don't think you can say that it's possible to understand Him more in one religion than the other.
Obviously, in Christianity, there's the belief that God is human (or at least has a human form) so, from that perspective, a Christian feels they can understand God more since they can have a good insight to the human mind and emotions. Still, as I said, as long as there are mysteries then the unknown percentage itself is unknown.
As far as Islam is concerned anyway, you have the names of God and you have all His descriptions of Himself in the Quran. As if God is saying to us that that is all we need to know about Him (at least for now). The Quran is then about guiding us and helping us to know the truth of the life of this world and keeping on the right path.
As for the enlightenment thing, I once heard a quote in a film called Bullet Proof Monk (okay, it's not the best film around... but I enjoyed it. What can I say? I love Kung Fu movies
) that said: "He who knows others is wise. He who knows himself is enlightened." (a quick google later reveals that it's by a guy called Lao Tzu).
And that's no small feat by any stretch of the imagination.
I guess if we could really understand the reality of the life of this world so that we know it like we know our names or better then everything would be easier and things wouldn't get us down so much. But I remind myself that even the Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him) would feel sad sometimes and sometimes happy. These are human emotions after all. Maybe that's part of knowing yourself. An acceptance of your humanity. That was cool Nice train of thought there 0 -
40crush41 wrote:-and you taught me something new, Muslims are not created in the image of God.
I recently asked a young Muslim about this and he answered that he doesn’t really understand what ”created in the image of God” means (a very smart comment IMHO since Christian philosophers have discussed that expression for ages and don’t always agree on how to understand it), but that he indeed could find some likeness between verses from Genesis in the Bible and some verses in the Qur’an about the creation of humans and the relationship between God and human beings:
Genesis 28: God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
Qur’an 2:30
And your Lord said to the Angels: "I am placing a successor on Earth." They said: "Would You place in it he who would corrupt in it, and spill blood, while we sing Your glory, and praise You?" He said: "I know what you do not know."
This verse also seems to indicate a close association/relationship between the Creator and the humans (and especially the Sufis will stress this):
Qur’an 32:9
He shaped him and blew into him from His spirit. And He gave you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brains; rarely are you thankful.
Also the sacredness of life seems to be more or less the same in the two religions:
Qur’an: 17:33
You shall not kill any person - for GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice.40crush41 wrote:Ah, enlightenment : ) (I should let the Buddhists know that I just experienced some of that good stuff)
Had a satori? 0 -
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I do agree in the first part -that we are not fully capable as humans to understand the mind of God. There are reasons for this.. our bodies limit us, we are selfish, among a nice list I'm sure of what inhibits us from knowing complete reality.the_new_mr wrote:I think that when it comes to understanding the Creator, neither Christianity nor Islam (nor any other religion for that matter) can claim that fully understanding Him is possible. As long as we can't fully understand Him then the percentage of not understanding is unknown and hence the percentage of knowing Him is unknown... if ya catch my drift? Therefore, respectfully, I don't think you can say that it's possible to understand Him more in one religion than the other.
However, I think I disagree on the second part. Even if you don't know how much you don't know, you can still know a given amount. I suppose the point might be that you don't know if what you know is correct?... and so, who is anyone to say that one religion has all the revelations right, and the other one missed it all? but I guess that’s what we call faith... faith that what we say we believe in is what is truth (or closest to truth as far as the human mind can comprehend).
About faith -I liked what my philosophy teacher said about it.. (along the lines) that we have fallen into the habit of thinking that faith is only this feeling that we can't prove since its never found in the form of concrete evidence, but really its a feeling that we have because of something that is in reality there -even if we can't see it we know that its real. And that indication of this thing beyond us should be taken seriously... for if we can work on understanding what is making us feel that certain way, we can eventually come to understand the reality behind that feeling.. In theology we called it the “religious sense” (this is a hard concept for me to put into words. Funny how some thoughts can do that to you!)
a fitting example of what I’m rambling about is Love : ) We know it exists.. but how, and why, and what makes us love? I would say it’s our inherent characteristics, created in the image of God...
my understanding of "Image of God" btw is that we too share life as rational individuals persons, living in a universal community that is formed by the love that is shared throughout the group. It is love that is communicated so strongly throughout this group that we actually become One. (One universal church). Of course, we are not God ourselves, we are human and so we are not perfect. C.S Lewis said on this point is that its similar to the idea of a man who sculpts a statue of a man.. though it shares likeness in appearance, it is not a man. (Mere Christianity)
Hopefully my understanding is somewhat on the right path, but if you're wondering how I’m thinking.. there you go : )
Now, I don't want you to get the impression that because you have told me that Islam doesn't see that God "creates humanity in His image" means I think that there is a lack of love, rationality, so on.
You have told me that Allah expresses His love through mercy. If I am thinking correctly then, all that you have and know is given to you by Allah in His plan to help humanity live a good life. It is not a part of His spirit that He has shared with humanity, He is on a different plane that is incomprehensible for human minds –and so, whatever we do understand is because He has given us His words. If it is part of our characteristics to love and to be merciful, it is not because we share the spirit of this God, but because God has granted us the ability to love and to be merciful (among other things, but these seem relevant).
I think my understanding of this is correct now
-Well, Jesus is fully human (not only a form), and fully God. Yes, it helps to talk to a God that became human and understood all the temptations of humanity. I think it’s more that we know Jesus understands how hard it is to be a human and can guide us through temptation. There is also talk about how it affects us in a Redemption aspect.. but that’s another topic and forum. : )Obviously, in Christianity, there's the belief that God is human (or at least has a human form) so, from that perspective, a Christian feels they can understand God more since they can have a good insight to the human mind and emotions.
Okay to the idea that we have insight to what it was like for Jesus to die as a human, all the suffering He faced for us, but what it was like to be fully God? to fully know everything..to know for how long He was destined to die a death on the cross? nah.. I can’t comprehend that.I guess if we could really understand the reality of the life of this world so that we know it like we know our names or better then everything would be easier and things wouldn't get us down so much. But I remind myself that even the Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him) would feel sad sometimes and sometimes happy. These are human emotions after all. Maybe that's part of knowing yourself. An acceptance of your humanity. That was cool Nice train of thought there
Indeed that was nice, its hard to accept being a human and that mistakes do happen.
Or even to understand the reality of the next world…
But I won’t rush things, we will all be there soooooon enough.
I want to note that I hope this didn’t seem to be a comparison between the two religions. I hope no one sees this post looking for the better religion,
What I think is important is that we understand the thoughts of each others religions.. in doing so, it decreases that fear of the unknown, helps builds tolerance, and even a greater appreciation for ones own beliefs : ) (I say this b/c I realize how much I wrote about Catholicism…)
Thank you for taking the time to read and reply to my posts, I realize how much time it takes to do so on these matters... (at least, it takes me sometime to put my thoughts together... perhaps I'll become faster with practice)
Keep well, peace&love ~Beth0 -
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Thanks Beth for those posts. I agree that writing and discussing in this way is a positive thing because it allows people a better understanding of the other.
And you're also right that it sometimes allows you understand your own faith more as you see differences and also similarities and see how the other faith looks at these similar points which gives you a new insight into your own faith.
Yeah, but if you don't know how much you don't know then how can you know how much of the given amount you know, you know? (sorry, had to put that last "you know" in there40crush41 wrote:However, I think I disagree on the second part. Even if you don't know how much you don't know, you can still know a given amount. I suppose the point might be that you don't know if what you know is correct?... and so, who is anyone to say that one religion has all the revelations right, and the other one missed it all? but I guess that’s what we call faith... faith that what we say we believe in is what is truth (or closest to truth as far as the human mind can comprehend).).
Very nice idea. I like it.40crush41 wrote:About faith -I liked what my philosophy teacher said about it.. (along the lines) that we have fallen into the habit of thinking that faith is only this feeling that we can't prove since its never found in the form of concrete evidence, but really its a feeling that we have because of something that is in reality there -even if we can't see it we know that its real. And that indication of this thing beyond us should be taken seriously... for if we can work on understanding what is making us feel that certain way, we can eventually come to understand the reality behind that feeling.. In theology we called it the “religious sense” (this is a hard concept for me to put into words. Funny how some thoughts can do that to you!)
And by describing Himself as the Loving One and expressing His love for people in the Quran.40crush41 wrote:You have told me that Allah expresses His love through mercy.
Yeah, I think you have it there. The verse that maitri mentioned:40crush41 wrote:You have told me that Allah expresses His love through mercy. If I am thinking correctly then, all that you have and know is given to you by Allah in His plan to help humanity live a good life. It is not a part of His spirit that He has shared with humanity, He is on a different plane that is incomprehensible for human minds –and so, whatever we do understand is because He has given us His words. If it is part of our characteristics to love and to be merciful, it is not because we share the spirit of this God, but because God has granted us the ability to love and to be merciful (among other things, but these seem relevant).
has something in there of that process but it's not clear exactly what happened there. Some interpretations of spirit in that verse are the Angel Gabriel.maitri wrote:Qur’an 32:9
He shaped him and blew into him from His spirit. And He gave you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brains; rarely are you thankful.
And indeed, rarely are we thankful
Well, just to state, from an Islamic perspective, God doesn't need to become a human since He created us and is All-Knowing.40crush41 wrote:Yes, it helps to talk to a God that became human and understood all the temptations of humanity.
Yeah, it is hard but I guess have to strive strive strive. One of the best things that happened to me was when I realised that I can't be an angel. Okay, that might seem a bit obvious40crush41 wrote:Indeed that was nice, its hard to accept being a human and that mistakes do happen.
Or even to understand the reality of the next world… What I mean is that, while we should all try our best to be as good as possible, we have to also realise that we are not perfect and can't be and this acceptance helps to relax a wee bit.
And thank you for reading mine.40crush41 wrote:Thank you for taking the time to read and reply to my posts
Actually, I'm the same40crush41 wrote:I realize how much time it takes to do so on these matters... (at least, it takes me sometime to put my thoughts together... perhaps I'll become faster with practice) I usually read the new posts in a thread, then click reply and read each post as I write my reply and finally, after posting, re-read my post and make any adjustments I think need to be made. This post took me 17 minutes so far. That's why I don't always reply when I read the posts by the way everybody. I often think to myself "That's gonna take some time... better wait till later"
It might be cool if everybody posted how long it took to write their post in each post 0 -
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