Hi! Questions from an American trying to write a Dubliner

Shogar

I'm writing a story and in it is a 16 year old girl from Dublin(she's part of a student exchange program between Ireland and America.)

What I want to do is avoid language cliches - or what I believe to be cliches at any rate - and get a good feel for the slang and sentence construction. My reasoning is, "What better way is there to know how a Dubliner speaks than to ask the people themselves?"

Any help is much appreciated. Thanks!

shoutman

So what exactly are you asking?

Its hardlly as simple as "what does a 16 year old girl from Dublin speak like".
It really depends on a lot of things, where she is from, whats her backround, what are her interests. Its a pretty vague question.

lostexpectation

some speak like americans

Shogar

She's middle class, likes to travel, passionately dislikes football. Quick thinker, likes mystery novels. Doesn't have a lot of faith in most human beings, but isn't rude about it. Wants to see if people are, for the most part, the same everywhere(partially the reason she's in America.)

My question is this - what would her speaking traits be? Being an American who has never left the borders of my own country, I don't have too much experience with Irish habits and the like outside of motion pictures.

I'm hoping that the world of the internet, more easily traveled than the world of the real, will be able to lend a hand. I can't fly like Superman and visit Dublin myself, but I can talk to you and that's probably the next best thing.

Hmm.. A good example: Just how often is "youse" actually.. er.. Used?

Rb

"youse" isn't used by the middle class.

Give us a few sentences you'd like translated. Ignore what you've seen in the movies for the most part, especially Colin Farrel.

Shogar

A little snippet.. It's a screenplay, by the way.

SIMON
Bayard. Simon Bayard.

She giggles.

SIMON (CONT’D)
Well, my name is funny.

ERIN
Oh, no, it’s nothing like that. It’s just that you introduced yourself like James Bond.

spurious

Very few girls called Erin in Ireland. That would mark her out as an American.

Shogar

Then she's got a somewhat unique name for an Irish girl? Fantastic.

Anyway, I'm not too worried about the name. I just want to get the cultural habits down. We're all human beings in the end and I'm a human being so writing that shouldn't be too much of a venture into the unknown. The parts I don't really know, the Irish bits, are what I'm trying to get right.

wyndham

You are asking the impossible really. You could post more of the play and then some kindly person might be arsed to correct it for you/point out some things. "arsed"- there's a phrase for you already- you could use that.
There is also a creative writing forum on boards.

Slow Motion

Actually I would worry about the name, to an Irish person it sounds a bit daft IMHO, similarly shannon (it's a big river not a person), as to the colloquial language I would suggest you buy/borrow some books by Irish writers and have a look at how they do it, Roddy Doyle, Maeve Binchey etc.

Shogar

Thanks for the help so far!

OK, so Erin is a really bad choice for a name .. Hmm ..

I'll take a look around at a couple of other names and come back with them later.

By the way, in earlier versions of the story the character's name was Muriel. I can't even begin to say how many last names I've gone through.

Needless to say, she has been the most problematic out of all my characters in regards to naming. It's probably thanks to the culture wall that I'm working against.

Rb

Shogar wrote:

Thanks for the help so far!

OK, so Erin is a really bad choice for a name .. Hmm ..

I'll take a look around at a couple of other names and come back with them later.

By the way, in earlier versions of the story the character's name was Muriel. I can't even begin to say how many last names I've gone through.

Needless to say, she has been the most problematic out of all my characters in regards to naming. It's probably thanks to the culture wall that I'm working against.

I don't think I've ever heard Muriel before either

The naming should be relatively easy, we've a lot of names in common with the US. Doesn't have to be a stereotypical Irish name as long as you can get across through her character that she is Irish. Names like Jennifer, Sarah etc., or you could always go with Sinead (Shinn-ade for pronunciation), Roisin (Ro-sheen) etc. Same with surnames, remember, a lot of our surnames made it across the water back in the old days

Chardee MacDennis

i knew an Erin from Dublin. although it does sound cliched!

where is she from in Dublin? makes a huge difference - there is a bigger difference in slang and accent between some places on the south side of Dublin and places on the north side than there is between the west and east coast of the US.

I also know a Muriel!!!

Shogar

Well, someone said that if her parents have enough money to send her to America that she'd be a southsider. Don't know how true that is, but that's what one person said. Sounds a little bit silly to me - surely there are people in Northern Dublin who could afford to send their child to America as well.

If someone could point out to me a couple of the main differences between Southern and Northern Dublin, that'd be great.

I've been looking at some names. First name on my list of possibles is Ella.

A question - has anyone here ever heard the last name Devany?

seamus

Shogar wrote:

Well, someone said that if her parents have enough money to send her to America that she'd be a southsider. Don't know how true that is, but that's what one person said. Sounds a little bit silly to me - surely there are people in Northern Dublin who could afford to send their child to America as well.

If someone could point out to me a couple of the main differences between Southern and Northern Dublin, that'd be great.

It is a little silly. Traditionally, North Dublin is known as the poorer area, and South Dublin is known as the wealthier area, but it's far from a rule. There are many, many very poor areas in South Dublin, and plenty of extremely wealthy areas in North Dublin - in fact I'd go as far as to say that the wealthiest part of Dublin (Howth) is in North Dublin.

There's some vague reason for the stigma dating back 100 years or so, but it has largely persisted in a piss-take kind of way. There are no major differences if your intention is to write about a Dubliner.

I've been looking at some names. First name on my list of possibles is Ella.

A question - has anyone here ever heard the last name Devany?

I'e heard of Devany, but a much more likely name is Devane (Deh-van). It's obviously Irish without being clichéd. Ella is a likely-ish name. There has been a heavy influence in reason times from the UK and US in terms of names, so Ella wouldn't seem un-Irish or clichéd.

lightening

You should try and go on a holiday to Dublin before writing about a Dubliner. You will get a much better idea.

Shogar

I'm planning on visiting Ireland this October/November. Apparently that's when the ticket prices are lower as well as the tourist traffic.

lightening

Well, I hope you have a good time.

WindSock

Have you ever read any books by Marian Keyes? I recommend them if you are trying to get a feel of what a middle class Dublin Woman abroad is like. Pretty much all of her books are about a woman living/travelling overseas. None of the characters are 16, but you would get the idea. If you are doing dialogue for your heroine, just keep adding the word 'like' after every second word. And throw in a few 'Oh my Gods' for good measure.

Bartronilic

Shogar the basics are that Ireland has a very diverse range of accents for such a small space, something sadly overlooked by almost all TV shows who have one accent that sounds NOTHING like any Irish person.

For Dublin ONLY, the working class people or wannabes talk like "dis dat dese and does and youse".

Then theres the "noveau riche" or "d4s" that are always talked about in the media have a very strange put on accent, they cant say "talk" or "walk" and say "dorsh" instead of "dart".

Then there's the Irish rockers/nerds who talk like they're american and say "awesome" and "metallica rock".

Then theres a whole host of accents down the country.

This "Erin" girl should just talk normally, but say slang words like "deadly" (cool), "dodgy"/"sketchy" (suspicious), "tobler" (on your own) etc etc etc that Irish teenagers say. Don't ammend her dialogue to sound dubliny.

Maybe make her from a place called "Tallaght" and have her say "A wha?!" (oh my god) and "scarleh" (how dreadfully embarrasing for you).

Listen to Irish Radio online, FM104 or 98fm. Irish people have really weird slang thats either taken from the irish language or cockneys.

Tails142

If you go for a southsider from D4 (postal code area) she will say the word random non stop.

So she might say "Oh my gawd, that is so random like" and so forth...

a good idea would be to go look at www.bebo.com actually!!!

luckat

You could look at the Sunday Tribune (tribune.ie) and search for Ross O'Carroll Kelly's articles - these are spoofs on every Irish (especially Dublin) class. Very funny, and very accurate. The narrator speaks in the voice of the rugby-playing upper-middle class, and has a son who speaks in the voice of the workless urban class.

As suggested, listen to the radio online. RTE Radio 1, and especially RTE Lyric FM, will give you a good line on middle-class accents and usage.

lodgepole

I think your best bet is to write the role in full without adding any Irish specific language. What's important is the content of her speech, not how she says it. Once you have all of that down, find an Irish person you trust and who you feel is relatively qualified, to run over her dialouge and alter it slightly. In addition to that, when you visit Ireland you will definitely here a few things that you may feel would make the language flow a bit better.

I assume complete authenticity isn't that important, but that you want to give the character some qualities that make her stand out.

Bartronilic wrote:

"tobler" (on your own)

I have never heard that said by an Irish person.

Degsy

Just wondering..how can anybody write about a Dubliner and not know what a Dubliner sounds like?It seems a little like writing a book about keeping Guinea Pigs and never having seen one.

seamus

Lodgepole wrote:

I have never heard that said by an Irish person.

This gives a good indicator of the diversity of language within the country. There are phrases and sayings that vary from city to city and village to village. It's much the same in most English-speaking countries. I've heard the phrase "on your tobler" plenty of times. On the other hand, I've never heard anyone say "hang sangwich" except when taking the piss.

For the record, Ross O'Carroll-Kelly is a spoof "writer". All mannerisms and dialects portrayed are overinflated and designed to be stereotypes.

Degsy

Not to mention the massive difference a few years can make to language and speech.Phrases,words and speech patterns evolve and go in and out of fashion.If somebody was to say "saints preserve us" nowadays they'd sound like an extra from a bog opera but in the 1950's and 60's it was common.Who says "whaasup" anymore,yet it was all the rage a few years ago.Even the eponymous "at the end of the day" seems to be on the way out,contrast that with two years ago when everybody was saying it.One or two badly written lines of dialogue is going to ruin the effect of a book and an innacurate idiom will be spotted in two seconds flat.

John Mason

you should read cecila aherns book "the rainbows end" - that whole book is written via emails and letters to a boy living in america and a girl living in dublin - crap book but should give a better idea of the culture. yeah, you really should come and live in dublin for a year or so before trying to attempt to write like a dublin person, have live here most of my life and problems understanding some dubs

Slow Motion

irishbird wrote:

have live here most of my life and problems understanding some dubs

That's because now days a lot of dubs are foreign

DonkeyStyle \o/

We use "begorrah" a lot.

Flukey

I too would suggest that you visit Dublin before embarking on this, or talk to some people from Dublin, face to face. There is only so much you can gain from us in here. Get the basic outline of the story done and hold off on the more detailed dialogue and cultural elements until after you've done a lot of research and visited here yourself. Pick nice neutral names, not the likes of Erin, Colleen etc. Visit various Irish websites, like newspaper ones or our TV channels (www.rte.ie and www.tv3.ie and www.tg4.ie) and get details on names and culture that way. TG4 is an Irish Language station, by the way. Anyway, there is a huge amount of resource material available on Dublin and Ireland, but do hold off until after your visit until you really get to work, if you can delay that long.

Bartronilic

Dublin middle girls actually say AMAZING, actually and random.