What is happening to the Greens

Voipjunkie

Seanies32 wrote:

Ot it could be argued, FF made them redundant as the 02-07 Govt. wasn't as right wing as the 97-02 Govt. Other than Health there wasn't a major PD influence in the last Govt. Surely it's up to the Greens to get the best partnership for Govt. they can get and implement it.

It should also be remembered that FF did not really need the PDs last time they had 81 seats and at least 3 FF gene poolers so the PDs could have walked whenever they wanted and FF could have continued on quite happily they used the PDs as a mudguard in health and justice and then stuck Parlon with decentralisation another disaster. Harney tried to block Dublin Bus from recieving more buses and FF faced her down the PDs just did not have any real clout last time out

The lesson for the greens is that if it is a Green/PD/independents FF will be able to play them of each other

Mick86

Voipjunkie wrote:

Surely developing public transport would mean improving it were it exists and creating it where it does not.

Do you imagine that an effective public transport network will be created countrywide in the next 5 years. Not a hope.

Voipjunkie wrote:

It depends on how it is done but if it can be structured to encourage people to buy greener cars and not gas guzzling SUVs then it is a good idea besides petrol is going to just going to keep getting more expensive from here on in so something that encourages us to start using less of it is no bad thing

The litre of petrol that I put in my Nissan Micra will cost the same as the litre of petrol that some other lad puts in his 7 series BMW. It's just another tax to add to VRT, VAT and Road Tax.

Voipjunkie wrote:

I don't know the greens are also interested in showing us that they are responsible and not the bunch of tree hugging flakey flip floppers that they are protrayed as. That said the pressure on them will be much greater than it ever was on the PDs in a time of crisis

The thing is that the Greens supporters voted for them because they are tree huggers. So if they abandon that policy where will that leave them.

redspider

This evening, it is being stated by John Gormley of the Green's (who seems to be heading the negotiations) that there remains "significant difficulties" between GP and FF. Its now looking less likely that FF and GP will form a government, at least at this juncture.

What I find strange is that FF have not publicly been discussing with the PD's and Independents as well. They no doubt are doing something 'less formally' in the background. I would have thought though that they would have aimed for more.

I think FF's general stance is that they are the only show in town so if anyone wants to come into government, these are the 'take it or leave it terms'. This stance, if perpetuated, is not likely to lead to a government, and certainly not a stable one, so something is gonna have to give.

I still think that another election is a very possible outcome.

Like a mountain climber going up Everest, FF are close to a majority, but even after scaling 7800m, getting up that last 500m or 600m (not a perfect analogy but you get the point) can be very difficult indeed. It would be foolish to assume that they are a shoe-in. FF nee other parties just as much as other parties need FF, no matter what the number of seats!

Redspider

Gael

Lets see what a bit more of the increasingly common doom and gloom stories on the economy do for their re-election prospects if there is another election. They clearly won this election on the economy, not on public services or quality of life. Their last trump card isn't looking the best these days.

Dr Galen

does anyone know what the difficulties are? i'd imagine co-location maybe one alright, and possibly transport policy?

clock is ticking for FF/Greens, isn't the Green party meeting on Sunday. Is another election looming now if they can't reach an agreement, Berties aim of stable government in my mind anyway doesn't equate to the PD's and the Indo's.

If another election had to be called could we see Enda & Co picking up more votes than the last one, or is that just wishful thinking?

Gael

nurse_baz wrote:

does anyone know what the difficulties are?

Green not prepared to let Harney continue as Health Minister until she loses some weight, but she's having none of it.

Zebra3

bk wrote:

It is time for the Greens to put up or shut up. This is a big test for them, are they mature enough to compromise, go into government, get at least some of their policies implemented and influence the government on the direction of all other policies.

Or are they going to walk away because they don't get everything they want and probably end up as a mad fringe party unlikely to ever get into government.

I doubt the Greens think with the handful of the seats they have that they are gonna get all their policies implemented by going in with FF & Miscellaneous, but it doesn't mean they should allow their moral standards to drop either.

What exactly is it you think they should compromise on and what is you think they should get implemented?

Jackie laughlin

There are no major policy differences between the Greens and FF. There are differences about rural housing and the corporate funding thing is easily agreed. Indeed, the Greens are quite as populist as FF; note that, while they bleat about global warming, they are silent on air transport. Principles, what principles?

jjbrien

nurse_baz wrote:

If another election had to be called could we see Enda & Co picking up more votes than the last one, or is that just wishful thinking?

No your right the electrate could possibly punish FF at the polling booth for causing another election. Also if it is during the summer the students would be off and could vote against FF. But we are not down that road yet. Bertie could still go with his indos and PD's.

is_that_so

Based on where the talks appear to be now and irrespective of how they work out, why did they do a week of "talks about talks" instead of hitting the hard questions earlier in the week? The potential problems were already known and these last two days have been no more than time-wasting imo.

Dr Galen

he could alright, but with Bev possibly going bankrupt and the slim margins he'd have, would it really be worth it?

Say the patched up Bertie camp lasted til later in the year, there could be more fallout from Mahon to deal with, isn't he appearing in October? That coupled with the apparent economic slowdown/rising inflation/rising interest rates could equal a battering at an election at that time. Wouldn't they be better off doing it sooner rather than later?

gbh

Fair play to any two political parties that can form a stable government together. But the differences between the Greens and FF seem insurmountable. FF are pro-development, progress, roads, builders, big business, corporate donations. The greens are largely against these. What happens when something like the Shell-Corrib situation flares up again? Where will the Greens stand? Or on the question of new roads, or corporate donations...the potential flash points are numerous, and one of the two parties will have to back down with the risk of losing face with the electorate...more than likely this will be the greens...

Voipjunkie

Mick86 wrote:

Do you imagine that an effective public transport network will be created countrywide in the next 5 years. Not a hope..

Well we have to start somewhere if people can see improvements are being made that would at least mean that something is being done

Mick86 wrote:

The litre of petrol that I put in my Nissan Micra will cost the same as the litre of petrol that some other lad puts in his 7 series BMW. It's just another tax to add to VRT, VAT and Road Tax.
.

Yes but the litre takes you further in a micra as far as I know the Greens policy is to replace those taxes with ones that are based on emissions etc

Mick86 wrote:

The thing is that the Greens supporters voted for them because they are tree huggers. So if they abandon that policy where will that leave them.

A little simplistic people obviously realise that the Greens with 6 candidates are not going to have their full manifesto implemented that does not mean they abandon their policies they work on those that they can achieve something on at this stage and look for an improved mandate the next time out. The choice is very simple sit in opposition and get none of your policies introduced or share power and at least get some of the stuff done the greens could go all pius like labour and refuse to deal with the devil but all Labour have to look forward to is another 5 years of opposition making no impact at all.

partholon

greens have pulled out of talks with FF.

just on the radio now. looks like were not going to get a FF/GREEN gov

apparently its back to enda now

Mick86

It seems that the whole thing is moot now as Newstalk has just broadcast the news that the Greens and FF have been unable to resolve their differences on Local Government, Health, Education and the Environment.

Voipjunkie wrote:

Well we have to start somewhere if people can see improvements are being made that would at least mean that something is being done .

So I'll walk the ten miles to work for the next decade until public transport hits South Tipp will I.:D

Voipjunkie wrote:

Yes but the litre takes you further in a micra as far as I know the Greens policy is to replace those taxes with ones that are based on emissions etc

I can't really afford the extra expense while those for whom a vehicle is a boast of how much money they have won't give a damn.

Dr Galen

will he just go ahead now without the Greens?

PD's and Indo's.................i give it til the end of the year

partholon

nurse_baz wrote:

will he just go ahead now without the Greens?

PD's and Indo's.................i give it til the end of the year

heard a very interesting interview on the bus home yesterday. apparenly at least 4 FF guys are in their late 70's. the odd of em lasting a full 5 years is slim. throw in jackie healy ray who's nearing 80 and would have to travel to dublin every day to keep the numbers adding up and its inevitable at least some of em'll croak it.

factor in resignations that may come from the tribunals and bevs potential bankruptcy and berties position isnt as rosy as it looks. and thats if he can get a deal with the PDs and the socialists types like gregory and mac grath to begin with

K-9

nurse_baz wrote:

will he just go ahead now without the Greens?

PD's and Indo's.................i give it til the end of the year

Partolon wrote:

heard a very interesting interview on the bus home yesterday. apparenly at least 4 FF guys are in their late 70's. the odd of em lasting a full 5 years is slim. throw in jackie healy ray who's nearing 80 and would have to travel to dublin every day to keep the numbers adding up and its inevitable at least some of em'll croak it.

factor in resignations that may come from the tribunals and bevs potential bankruptcy and berties position isnt as rosy as it looks. and thats if he can get a deal with the PDs and the socialists types like gregory and mac grath to begin with

Or else we have FG/Lab/Greens/PD's and Inds and we have the same scenario with Healy Rea and Cooper Flynn.

FF/Lab is looking more attractive every day.

redspider

I think the Green's will win plaudits (and future votes?) for sticking to their principles and their core policies. FF didnt give much I would say, not that they were likely to, and the list of points of non-agreement is long and wide-ranging across most of government functions really.

So will Labour "do the right thing for the nation", will it be a minority government somehow, or can FF+PD+Ind's make it?

I think the latter is the next most likely prospect. The FF+PD+(3 or 4x Ind) would/could make a Government 83 or 84, but for how long and how stable is anyone's guess. Ironically, if that was FF's preference, they should be able to form it relatively quickly.

Labour dont "need" to do the "right thing" to form a government as I think they would accept having another election. I think FG feel likewise as they feel they are close to a majority, even if after anoter election it would only be a slim one. And the Green's too dont care per se if a government isnt formed, they will take their chances and these FF/GP negotiations have if anything given them more credibility as a viable and serious party.

I can forsee some last minute high-jinks in the final negotiations leading up to the Dail sitting date, which is Thu 14th I understand from Independents and FF.

Still no government, and the chance of another election is still very much there ....

Redspider

Voipjunkie

Bertie can probably get elected with the Pds and Independents and the summer recess is here so then he has 3 or 4 months to sort out a longer term deal with the Greens or Labour

redspider

Voipjunkie wrote:

Bertie can probably get elected with the Pds and Independents and the summer recess is here so then he has 3 or 4 months to sort out a longer term deal with the Greens or Labour

Yes, FF+PD+Inds could form a slim majority. But its still only a could. And how stable it would be in the long-term is anyone's guess. Also, I dont think that GP or Lab would come in after a government is already formed.

When does that recess start, and if no government is formed before the recess is there no onus to form one during it?

Does anyone know when another election would be called for, if no government is formed?

Redspider

K-9

redspider wrote:

I think the Green's will win plaudits (and future votes?) for sticking to their principles and their core policies. FF didnt give much I would say, not that they were likely to, and the list of points of non-agreement is long and wide-ranging across most of government functions really.

But I thought FF had no principles!

redspider wrote:

Labour dont "need" to do the "right thing" to form a government as I think they would accept having another election. I think FG feel likewise as they feel they are close to a majority, even if after anoter election it would only be a slim one. And the Green's too dont care per se if a government isnt formed, they will take their chances and these FF/GP negotiations have if anything given them more credibility as a viable and serious party.

FF have been punished in the past for causing elections. The electorate will not approve of another election in the next few months. FF got a mandate for another Govt and it's up to the other parties to agree a deal. It could work both ways for the Greens. FF have painted them as being very responsible in the negotiations as there is a very real chance there could be more, but come an election they could attack the Greens on not being able to do a deal.

bk

redspider wrote:

I think the Green's will win plaudits (and future votes?) for sticking to their principles and their core policies.

Or less people vote for them as why vote for a party who can't compromise and won't go into government?

Also if it later comes out that the greens where going to be given most of their environmental demands, but rejected government based on not getting their left wing and anti FF demands (hospital co-location, corruption, etc.). It could be very damaging for them as most of their floating voters vote for them based on their environmental policies, not their left wing policies.

redspider wrote:

Labour dont "need" to do the "right thing" to form a government as I think they would accept having another election. I think FG feel likewise as they feel they are close to a majority, even if after anoter election it would only be a slim one. And the Green's too dont care per se if a government isnt formed, they will take their chances and these FF/GP negotiations have if anything given them more credibility as a viable and serious party.

.....

Still no government, and the chance of another election is still very much there ....

Another election would be very bad for FG/Labour /Greens and they know it. Most people really don't like politics and they just want a stable government who mostly just stays out of their way and their pockets. If another election was called it is highly likely that the non core, floating voters would vote in droves to form the most stable government possible, to ensure that they wouldn't need to think or listen to it again for another 5 years.

That would mean that FF would almost certainly be returned with a majority.

Húrin

bk wrote:

But here is the thing, the green party claim to be idealists. They claim not to care about politics and political power and to only be in politics in order to bring forth policy change on the environment, etc.



If the greens are the real idealists that they claim to be, they then should welcome the day when their polices become core FF and FG policies and the Greens are no longer needed.

The Greens do not claim to be idealists. You are ignorant.

It is necessary that the Green party implements green policies because the other parties will not do it competently.

is_that_so

bk wrote:

Or less people vote for them as why vote for a party who can't compromise and won't go into government?

Also if it later comes out that the greens where going to be given most of their environmental demands, but rejected government based on not getting their left wing and anti FF demands (hospital co-location, corruption, etc.). It could be very damaging for them as most of their floating voters vote for them based on their environmental policies, not their left wing policies.



Another election would be very bad for FG/Labour /Greens and they know it. Most people really don't like politics and they just want a stable government who mostly just stays out of their way and their pockets. If another election was called it is highly likely that the non core, floating voters would vote in droves to form the most stable government possible, to ensure that they wouldn't need to think or listen to it again for another 5 years.

That would mean that FF would almost certainly be returned with a majority.

This seems to be a common attitude for some who are strongly pro FF; ascribing weak-mindedness or loss of reason as an explanation as to why other people didn't vote for FF. We are quite obviously being curmudgeonly or are nothing more than begrudgers. What do actually know about the Greens or what a "floating voter" who voted for the Greens looks like? Your observation here suggests very little.

I would also suggest you do some reading on the given reasons why this deal did not happen.

I'll pass on that last bit.

is_that_so

redspider wrote:

Yes, FF+PD+Inds could form a slim majority. But its still only a could. And how stable it would be in the long-term is anyone's guess. Also, I dont think that GP or Lab would come in after a government is already formed.

When does that recess start, and if no government is formed before the recess is there no onus to form one during it?

Does anyone know when another election would be called for, if no government is formed?

Redspider

Think the latest date by which Bertie has to resign is the 14th June. Then he will probably remain as acting Taoiseach. Each one of the leaders can be proposed. Not sure about when a new election needs to be called though.

K-9

is_that_so wrote:

This seems to be a common attitude for some who are strongly pro FF; ascribing weak-mindedness or loss of reason as an explanation as to why other people didn't vote for FF. We are quite obviously being curmudgeonly or are nothing more than begrudgers. What do actually know about the Greens or what a "floating voter" who voted for the Greens looks like? Your observation here suggests very little.

Thats a bit of an exaggeration. Parties that bring down Govts. do not doo well in elections. Labour in 1987, FF in 92 and 82.

Funnily enough there is no mention from the Greens on lack of agreement on Corporate donations. On education and climate change I would say if they re-entered talks ground could be made up. Health, if FF are insisting co-location is non-negotiable could be a stumbling block for Labour and the Greens.

is_that_so wrote:

Think the latest date by which Bertie has to resign is the 14th June. Then he will probably remain as acting Taoiseach. Each one of the leaders can be proposed. Not sure about when a new election needs to be called though.

Not sure how it works, will be up to the leader who gets most votes as Taoiseach to dissolve the Dail or is there a constitutional requirement? Maybe somebody knows?

Haughey's minority Govt. in 87 would suggest that it up to whoever has the most votes and if it is a workable Govt. an election is not necessary.

oscarBravo

H&#250 wrote: »

You are ignorant.

And you are one more personal remark away from a ban.

Gael

bk wrote:

That would mean that FF would almost certainly be returned with a majority.

The days of the FF overall majority are long gone with the early days of Charlie Haughey. And a downturn in the economy under their watch makes it even less likely. If they couldn't get an overall majority at the peak of the boom (2002), they're hardly likely to get one now.

bk

is_that_so wrote:

This seems to be a common attitude for some who are strongly pro FF; ascribing weak-mindedness or loss of reason as an explanation as to why other people didn't vote for FF. We are quite obviously being curmudgeonly or are nothing more than begrudgers. What do actually know about the Greens or what a "floating voter" who voted for the Greens looks like? Your observation here suggests very little.

Actually my observations are based on past Irish political history, almost every time a smaller party has collapsed a FF government, the smaller party almost gets wiped out in the next election and FF gets returned with a stronger mandate.

I'll admit FF is not to likely be returned with a majority again, but they would likely be returned with an equal or stronger mandate if another election was called.