What is happening to the Greens

bk

H&#250 wrote: »

It is necessary that the Green party implements green policies because the other parties will not do it competently.

But that is my point. The greens claim that we are facing massive climate change and that we most do something about it now (I completely agree).

However when faced with the opportunity to enter government and effect those environmental changes, it would seem (and yes I don't really know, but from all the rumors and newspaper reports) that the sticking points aren't the environmental issues, but issues that have nothing to do with the environment like hospital co-location, education, etc.

K-9

bk wrote:

But that is my point. The greens claim that we are facing massive climate change and that we most do something about it now (I completely agree).

However when faced with the opportunity to enter government and effect those environmental changes, it would seem (and yes I don't really know, but from all the rumors and newspaper reports) that the sticking points aren't the environmental issues, but issues that have nothing to do with the environment like hospital co-location, education, etc.

Actually from the Tribune, won't let me get the link!, Environment was the big issue.

Strangely enough, health co-location wasn't after a FF briefing paper was supplied. That sound very interesting for the Greens and for Labour.

FF Policies on PRSI was agreed, surprise, surprise! best and most imaginative and fair policy of any party, just a follow on from FF tax cuts, which of course the other parties ignored. The Greens had no objection to it.

Greens seem to have accepted Transport 21 but increased investment in public transport.No Major objection to Shannon stopover by Greens.

Environmental policy and business donations, I stand corrected, where the major stumbling blocks.

Mutual respect between both parties and of course the option of further negotiations.

redspider

> The electorate will not approve of another election in the next few months.

Approve or not, there could be one, and who they/we support or 'punish' is an unknown. It is all to play for.


> FF got a mandate for another Govt

This is a falicy. FF got 78 seats. A government is formed with a majority, with 83 or 84 seats (inc a CC). Every seat is an equivalent mandate. FF did not get a mandate to govern no more than any other grouping with 78 seats. eg: FG+Lab+GP+Lowry = 78 seats. That is the same mandate as FF, but is also not a mandate to govern!

Everyone needs to look at the figures very closely. The media included, many of whom are still saying that Tuesday is a formality. The key thing for me is even if a government of either hue is scraped in on Tue, either one will have inherent risks which could mean that it could 'fail' in a short period of time. The seat situation is finely balanced.

bk wrote:

Or less people vote for them as why vote for a party who can't compromise and won't go into government?

That same argument, as juvenile as it is, can also be used against FF. Why would anyone vote for FF if they cant form a government ?!?

bk wrote:

Another election would be very bad for FG/Labour /Greens and they know it.
That would mean that FF would almost certainly be returned with a majority.

No, FG/Lab/GP dont know that it would be bad for them. In fact no-one knows. If anything, it is likely that FG could gain again, FF could lose more seats, but its all to play for. And FF returning wity a majority, well, lets just say that that is far from certain.

Redspider

K-9

redspider wrote:

> The electorate will not approve of another election in the next few months.

Approve or not, there could be one, and who they/we support or 'punish' is an unknown. It is all to play for.

Agreed as FF & Lab know.

redspider wrote:

> FF got a mandate for another Govt

This is a falicy. FF got 78 seats. A government is formed with a majority, with 83 or 84 seats (inc a CC). Every seat is an equivalent mandate. FF did not get a mandate to govern no more than any other grouping with 78 seats. eg: FG+Lab+GP+Lowry = 78 seats. That is the same mandate as FF, but is also not a mandate to govern!

So one party = FF Lite/Greens/Lowry.

So on the same logic, FF/PD's/Cooper Flynn/Healy Rea/SF = 86. SF Did favour FF and not FG.

Look forget about FG/Lab/Greens/Lowry, FF got 78, far more likely to form Govt.

It's not a conspiracy!

redspider wrote:

[Everyone needs to look at the figures very closely. The media included, many of whom are still saying that Tuesday is a formality. The key thing for me is even if a government of either hue is scraped in on Tue, either one will have inherent risks which could mean that it could 'fail' in a short period of time. The seat situation is finely balanced.

Yes if FG + SF.

Voipjunkie

Seanies32 wrote:

Yes if FG + SF.

I think that SF will vote against Ahern and Kenny for Taoiseach it is the only way to make themselves relevant to the whole process if they abstain in either vote they are effectively voting for Ahern as Taoiseach. If they vote against both and the Greens have not done a deal with FF then it makes thing more interesting presuming FF 78 PDs 2 and Healy Rae and Bev = 82 that means that FF need Lowry and one more

The election of the Ceann Comhairle is vital if it is a Labour TD then it makes things a lot easier for Ahern

redspider

Seanies32 wrote:

FF got 78, far more likely to form Govt. It's not a conspiracy!

I'm not saying its a conspiracy. All I'm saying is that FF didnt get a mandate to govern. They have 78 seats, no more no less, and 3 less than they had in 2002. If there are any messages coming from the electorate, its that they wanted FF less than before.

Still, FF may have with others enough seats to form a government. It looks as if the PD's are once again firmly with FF. So FF+PD+3 Inds = 83, and thats enough to get Bertie voted as a taoiseach (correct?).

> The election of the Ceann Comhairle is vital if it is a Labour TD then it makes things a lot easier for Ahern

Yes, the Cean Comhairle selection is vital. If its someone from the FF side of things it means that all future votes will be very tight. If its someone from the FG side of things, it will mean that an FF-coalition government is one seat safer, although a Cean Comhairle "favouring" the oppoistion in debates could act as a weakening link.

is the CC voted on first?

Btw, I dont think a CC should be taken from the TD base. I think its better to have an independent person. I'll discuss in more detail on the CC thread.

Still very finely balanced.

Redspider

Heinrich

Losing respect rapidly for the Greens. Thought Gormley's attack on MacDowell was an acute lack of decorum and now this *deadline* on Friday midday is still ongoing. Did someone say integrity?

Sargent really wants to get his arse on a Government bench. How will the PDs enter into the equations as their participation in Government was one of the stumbling blocks.

mike65

The Greens in the Dail smell power and they want some, the rank and file will not vote for power though. Expect a small ammount of blood-letting within the Greens either way. Seargent does'nt want to enter at any cost, Boyle (who may have forgotten he's been unelected) and Gormley are pushing this along it seems.

Mike.

Mike.

Heinrich

I hope you are right about the rank and file. Boyle seems to be on a power trip.

jjbrien

Hmm well it seems that a deal between the leadership of the Greens and FF has been almost done. I just wonder how the ordinary members of the green party will react to this? It would be like selling their soles to the devil by getting into bed with FF. But if they are hungy for goverment then they might just do it. the next 3 days will be very interesting.

K-9

jjbrien wrote:

Hmm well it seems that a deal between the leadership of the Greens and FF has been almost done. I just wonder how the ordinary members of the green party will react to this? It would be like selling their soles to the devil by getting into bed with FF. But if they are hungy for goverment then they might just do it. the next 3 days will be very interesting.

Well that seems to be the FG party line as Brian Hayes pontificated on Q & A tonight. Could be argued FG where hungry for Govt. during the election?

Maybe the Greens want to be in Govt., chance would be a fine thing for FG/Lab.

mickd

jjbrien wrote:

It would be like selling their soles to the devil by getting into bed with FF.

Hopefully they will be able to get new shoes as part of the deal

K-9

Would seem from Q&A tonight that FF grass roots would have just as much problems with going into Govt. with the Greens as Greens with FF but sure we had the same argument about PD's and FF.

They'll be based on their record in Govt. same as everybody else, well bar FG/Lab as it's that long ago!