Best .22 lr rounds

zaitsev

Hezz700 wrote:

Have the bunnies gone into hiding over your way, now that your back???:D

No, they have'nt got the message yet but i'm working on it. A bit off thread heard there is a new gun shop opening in Carlow ??

ArthurJ

Silver Knight wrote:

Hi Sparks,

I'm shooting paper targets on the range at 100m and 50m with a CZ 452 Varmint.


Looks like I've been using the wrong stuff thus far so I think I'll get as many different types of ammo that I can and try them out because it seems that even two of the very same rifles, firing the same ammo can have different results, am I correct?

Silver
Yes your right.

If you keep records you can choose an ammo type that suits your pocket/accuracy requirments.

The "right" ammo, for your particular gun, can make a big difference, no matter what type of shooting you do.

Best of luck.

Hezz700

zaitsev wrote:

No, they have'nt got the message yet but i'm working on it. A bit off thread heard there is a new gun shop opening in Carlow ??

Yep, its only getting setup at the moment, according to the guy i met there they will be fully stocked and ready to roll in 2 weeks.

the hunter

zaitsev wrote:

No, they have'nt got the message yet but i'm working on it. A bit off thread heard there is a new gun shop opening in Carlow ??

and theres a new shop in gorey

Sparks

ArthurJ wrote:

Sparks
CZ452, Anschutz 1808, 10/22 thats a decent test.

No, it really isn't.
Get yourself a couple of proper target rifles (Anschutz, FWB, Walther, whatever, just proper target shooting bull-barrelled rifles), pull their actions out and drop them into a benchtesting vice (the kind that rolls back with the recoil), then run a few thousand rounds of each kind through each barrel, cleaning properly between each type of ammunition, on an indoor range. Then plot the groups, figure out the statistics that go with them (not just edge-to-edge measurements, but standard deviation as well), and that is a good test.

With the test he ran, we don't know if it was indoors or outdoors, if the rifles were properly cleaned between runs, if they were shot from the shoulder or from a rest or from a vice, how many rounds were fired, what condition they were in, etc, etc, etc.

rrpc

Sparks wrote:

No, it really isn't.
Get yourself a couple of proper target rifles (Anschutz, FWB, Walther, whatever, just proper target shooting bull-barrelled rifles), pull their actions out and drop them into a benchtesting vice (the kind that rolls back with the recoil), then run a few thousand rounds of each kind through each barrel, cleaning properly between each type of ammunition, on an indoor range. Then plot the groups, figure out the statistics that go with them (not just edge-to-edge measurements, but standard deviation as well), and that is a good test.

With the test he ran, we don't know if it was indoors or outdoors, if the rifles were properly cleaned between runs, if they were shot from the shoulder or from a rest or from a vice, how many rounds were fired, what condition they were in, etc, etc, etc.

I was amazed that the test metrics were not outlined fully considering the amount of tests that were run. I found it extremely unhelpful. According to the article, they shot 3 five shot groups at 50m with each rifle/ammo combination.

Hardly an exhaustive test.

Hezz700

the hunter wrote:

and theres a new shop in gorey

Thats just Paul walshs new place, he's moved the shop away from the house.

the hunter

Hezz700 wrote:

Thats just Paul walshs new place, he's moved the shop away from the house.

thats right . he is the the local rag this week

the hunter

Hezz700 wrote:

Thats just Paul walshs new place, he's moved the shop away from the house.

i might drop in over the weekend to have a look .. although i still prefer to go to lambert ...

Hezz700

the hunter wrote:

i might drop in over the weekend to have a look .. although i still prefer to go to lambert ...

I can't say i'm familliar with Lambert! Person or place???

the hunter

Hezz700 wrote:

I can't say i'm familliar with Lambert! Person or place???

sorry hezz
i meant john lambert he is in camolin

Hezz700

the hunter wrote:

sorry hezz
i meant john lambert he is in camolin

Cheers H,

I must pay him a visit sometime. What way does his interests lean? I find that some dealers can be more orientated towards shotguns than rifles or vise versa. which is a pain in the a*** if you've travelled a long way only to find they don't have what you need.

Hezz

the hunter

Hezz700 wrote:

Cheers H,

I must pay him a visit sometime. What way does his interests lean? I find that some dealers can be more orientated towards shotguns than rifles or vise versa. which is a pain in the a*** if you've travelled a long way only to find they don't have what you need.

Hezz

yeah if you get the chance call in.. he does everything a very small gun room though but very very helpful and chatty

bunny shooter

.243 wrote:

thought american eagle ammo was 40 in a box ???

The batch I got were 50 round boxes....I have seen 40 round boxes too

bunny shooter

Got the american eagle in Paul O'Hallorans in Drangan, Co. Tipp late last year

ArthurJ

Sparks wrote:

No, it really isn't.
Get yourself a couple of proper target rifles (Anschutz, FWB, Walther, whatever, just proper target shooting bull-barrelled rifles), pull their actions out and drop them into a benchtesting vice (the kind that rolls back with the recoil), then run a few thousand rounds of each kind through each barrel, cleaning properly between each type of ammunition, on an indoor range. Then plot the groups, figure out the statistics that go with them (not just edge-to-edge measurements, but standard deviation as well), and that is a good test.

With the test he ran, we don't know if it was indoors or outdoors, if the rifles were properly cleaned between runs, if they were shot from the shoulder or from a rest or from a vice, how many rounds were fired, what condition they were in, etc, etc, etc.

In the context of your average bloke, using an average gun, trying to get a grip on the ammo issue, it was a reasonable test.
We’re all aware of the requirements of high end target shooting.

The original post states "I have just taken up target shooting, nothing serious"


Best of luck

rrpc

ArthurJ wrote:

In the context of your average bloke, using an average gun, trying to get a grip on the ammo issue, it was a reasonable test.

It actually wasn't a reasonable test by any measure. 15 shots of each type of ammo, does not constitute a good test, edge to edge measurement of the group is also not a good measurement. Depending on how the rounds were fired as Sparks said could result in fliers which will affect the edge to edge measurement of the group.

Whether it was indoors or outdoors will also affect the group size. You have to be able to discount these, and the best way is to get the fall of each shot and get an average and a standard deviation.

If you're just testing ammo, then you use the best barrels available. If you are testing ammo/gun combinations, then you have to benchrest from the shoulder or clamp the barrel and action in a vice as Sparks described. Clamping the entire firearm in a vice usually gives very bad groups. Whichever method you use, you must do it indoors.

zaitsev

Anybody having problems getting 233 ammo, in particular Remington Accutips 55g.
Have been in three dealers in the south east today and none to be found. Plenty of UMC and Eagles okay, was told there was a problem with licensing or getting the stuff released in Dublin.

ArthurJ

rrpc wrote:

It actually wasn't a reasonable test by any measure. 15 shots of each type of ammo, does not constitute a good test, edge to edge measurement of the group is also not a good measurement. Depending on how the rounds were fired as Sparks said could result in fliers which will affect the edge to edge measurement of the group.

Whether it was indoors or outdoors will also affect the group size. You have to be able to discount these, and the best way is to get the fall of each shot and get an average and a standard deviation.

If you're just testing ammo, then you use the best barrels available. If you are testing ammo/gun combinations, then you have to benchrest from the shoulder or clamp the barrel and action in a vice as Sparks described. Clamping the entire firearm in a vice usually gives very bad groups. Whichever method you use, you must do it indoors.

Point taken.

So how doe’s the newcomer select ammo.

What would be your and Spark’s advice be to Silver and myself.



Best of luck.

Sparks

Well, if you're doing target shooting with a CZ, I'd say get yourself a hundred rounds of good ammo - Lapua Master (L and M), RWS R50, Eley Tenex (I wouldn't bother with the EPS myself, but maybe your rifle would like it), whatever is available. I wouldn't bother with the very cheap stuff myself.
Then pick a calm day and shoot off all of it on the same day at the same range in the same rifle from a rest with a scope, all in groups of ten.
Ten groups of ten in different spots on the same card, then change the card, clean the barrel, and do the next hundred.
Check the group shape and size at the end of the day, and that'll give you a good impression.

If you were doing ISSF stuff at a high level, I'd say go get batch tested ammo from the factory, but for a CZ shooting like you're doing, that's overkill.

I will say this thought - don't economise. Get the best ammo you can get, not the best ammo you can afford.

bunny shooter

Sparks wrote:

Well, if you're doing target shooting with a CZ, I'd say get yourself a hundred rounds of good ammo - Lapua Master (L and M), RWS R50, Eley Tenex (I wouldn't bother with the EPS myself, but maybe your rifle would like it), whatever is available. I wouldn't bother with the very cheap stuff myself.
Then pick a calm day and shoot off all of it on the same day at the same range in the same rifle from a rest with a scope, all in groups of ten.
Ten groups of ten in different spots on the same card, then change the card, clean the barrel, and do the next hundred.
Check the group shape and size at the end of the day, and that'll give you a good impression.

If you were doing ISSF stuff at a high level, I'd say go get batch tested ammo from the factory, but for a CZ shooting like you're doing, that's overkill.

I will say this thought - don't economise. Get the best ammo you can get, not the best ammo you can afford.

CZ rifles are extremely accurate and shouldn't be ignored.....or looked down upon....... Had a few myself... not fancy but can shoot as well as any of the rest !!!!!!

rrpc

bunny shooter wrote:

CZ rifles are extremely accurate and shouldn't be ignored.....or looked down upon....... Had a few myself... not fancy but can shoot as well as any of the rest !!!!!!

Sparks is not looking down on CZ rifles, and neither am I for that matter, in fact I own a Brno.

There's just no comparison with a match rifle because they are designed for different things. A match barrel is supposed to get 60 shots in a group less than 10mm in diameter at 50m every time, that's why ammo is so critical. The test group of 10 shots for my barrel from the Anschutz factory is less than 5mm at 50m indoors.

The problem with the kind of test that Sparks is suggesting, is that with that kind of ammo going through it, the barrel will get hot and the group will widen, so I'd suggest a box of each and take good breaks between each 10 to allow the barrel to cool off. Also use a box of the cheaper stuff as a base comparison.

Allow for fliers, you will always get one or two depending on conditions, but it's the main group size you are interested in. Once you fire the first shot of the group, you then aim at the first shot hole and try and keep the rounds going there.

Hope that helps.

bunny shooter

rrpc wrote:

Sparks is not looking down on CZ rifles, and neither am I for that matter, in fact I own a Brno.

There's just no comparison with a match rifle because they are designed for different things. A match barrel is supposed to get 60 shots in a group less than 10mm in diameter at 50m every time, that's why ammo is so critical. The test group of 10 shots for my barrel from the Anschutz factory is less than 5mm at 50m indoors.

The problem with the kind of test that Sparks is suggesting, is that with that kind of ammo going through it, the barrel will get hot and the group will widen, so I'd suggest a box of each and take good breaks between each 10 to allow the barrel to cool off. Also use a box of the cheaper stuff as a base comparison.

Allow for fliers, you will always get one or two depending on conditions, but it's the main group size you are interested in. Once you fire the first shot of the group, you then aim at the first shot hole and try and keep the rounds going there.

Hope that helps.

bog standard CZ 452 with lapua master - 5 rds clipping one hole at 50 yards -group size 2-3mm off bench with front and rear rest outside (nice calm day) - no bother

rrpc

bunny shooter wrote:

bog standard CZ 452 with lapua master - 5 rds clipping one hole at 50 yards -group size 2-3mm off bench with front and rear rest outside (nice calm day) - no bother

Im assuming that 2-3mm is off the centre hole and the group is therefore 9-11mm in diameter (5.6 + 2 +2). That's about average with that ammo. The point is to look at a greater number of shots to see what the group size is like in comparison to different rounds. Also worth looking at the cheaper rounds just to see what the difference is.

But the Lapua Master is good stuff, and obviously suits your rifle.

bunny shooter

rrpc wrote:

Im assuming that 2-3mm is off the centre hole and the group is therefore 9-11mm in diameter (5.6 + 2 +2). That's about average with that ammo. The point is to look at a greater number of shots to see what the group size is like in comparison to different rounds. Also worth looking at the cheaper rounds just to see what the difference is.

But the Lapua Master is good stuff, and obviously suits your rifle.

you may misunderstand my method...........

fire one bullet at target, this is aim point for following four, five fired rounds are 2-3mm edge to edge !!!!!!!!!

rrpc

bunny shooter wrote:

you may misunderstand my method...........

fire one bullet at target, this is aim point for following four, five fired rounds are 2-3mm edge to edge !!!!!!!!!

Good trick with a 5.6mm dia bullet

Umiq88

em mm or cm

2cm in inchs is 3/4inch which is ok

bunny shooter

yes, i know, silly mistake, i mean CM.......Yes i feel .....................

tightened up considerably after replacement springs inserted into trigger, which made pull very usable

traded it in for a sako finnfire hunter, better trigger, bolt etc.....

not much diff in accuracy

ArthurJ

rrpc wrote:

The problem with the kind of test that Sparks is suggesting, is that with that kind of ammo going through it, the barrel will get hot and the group will widen,

So Sparks is wrong!
Sweet BULLbarrel's what ever next.

Best of luck

bunny shooter

would a .22 barrel firing target fodder heat up ?