Whats Happened to the Irish?

Pinetree Boy

What has happened? This time last year down here in the land of Black the Irish were being talked about as a real threat. Irish rugby seemed to have developed both in player strength and approach. You had tight forwards as good as anyone, solid loose forwards and a better mid-field than the ABs. Frankly Ireland were seen as a threat in the QFs of the WRC.

theone

what are you basing that on you do know that wasn't our best team in argentina and we had a team playing in the churchill cup aswell

Pinetree Boy

But is there any depth? The Irish got hammered by Nz Maori in the Churchill (NZ Maori excludes the 30 players on AB duty and the 30 on Junior AB duty).
Ireland has the toughest WRC road of any teamand won't be able to field its top 15 in every game.

JC 2K3

Ah come on. You can't dismiss Ireland as a threat after one bad series with 2nd and 3rd string players.

Even if there are injuries, it won't be the whole team replaced. I mean it's not like we're going to field a team anything like the one last Saturday.

We mightn't have as much depth as we'd like, but we sure as hell are still a WRC threat.

theone

Pinetree Boy wrote:

But is there any depth? The Irish got hammered by Nz Maori in the Churchill (NZ Maori excludes the 30 players on AB duty and the 30 on Junior AB duty).
Ireland has the toughest WRC road of any teamand won't be able to field its top 15 in every game.

they do have depth not as much depth as the all blacks nobody does ,considering all the good players they had over the years only winning the world cup once is criminal tbh

Amz

It's Kiwi season again I see.

I hope this isn't a reincarnation of one of our old cycloptic Kiwi pals?

If you want to stir sh!t do it on www.boards.co.nz, this isn't a forum for flaming or trolling.

davyjose

Pinetree Boy wrote:

The Irish got hammered by Nz Maori in the Churchill (NZ Maori excludes the 30 players on AB duty and the 30 on Junior AB duty).

So did the Lions

If I was Argentinian I'd feel I had a lot more to woory about, given who we fielded and who they did.

EDIT: Also effectively what your saying is that the NZ 3rd string side beat the Irish 3rd String side???

buck65

NZ have only won the RWC once more than us!!!

RuggieBear

buck65 wrote:

NZ have only won the RWC once more than us!!!

and considering it's their national sport and the players they have had over the years, I think it's fair to ask what's happened to the Kiwis?

In international terms, Ireland over performs when it comes to rugby. it's the opposite for New Zealand.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Worrytahs

The Noo Zullanders can have 300 first choice players for all that matters. However at the end of the day, you can only field a team lineup of 22 players at any one time. So NZ 'A' did well at the Churchill Cup. Erm....well done :rolleyes:

theone

buck65 wrote:

NZ have only won the RWC once more than us!!!

as was said already were performing way above our level,were not gonna win it(would be great if we did) but were definitely getting out of our group.
Nz are so much better then everybody else but they seem to freeze on the big stage ,pity really

Sangre

Pinetree Boy wrote:

What has happened? This time last year down here in the land of Black the Irish were being talked about as a real threat. Irish rugby seemed to have developed both in player strength and approach. You had tight forwards as good as anyone, solid loose forwards and a better mid-field than the ABs. Frankly Ireland were seen as a threat in the QFs of the WRC.

We were poisoned.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

theone

I'm not bashing anyone just stating fact,NZ are by far the best in the world but on their day the Irish could come very close to them maybe even beat them.

They were very unlucky in those tests last summer down in NZ just ran out of steam.

We haven't got the player base to nurture depth just the four provinces where maybe the second or third string aren't given enough of a chance.
But 15 against 15 we can compete with the best with a bit of luck keep away from injuries.

Worrytahs

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

To summarise an answer to 'pinetree': They are taking a rest.

shmaido

Sangre wrote:

We were poisoned.

LOL, best kiwi bashing line of the thread I believe

Pinetree Boy

I don't mind a bit of Kiwi bashing.We are big enough and bad enough to take it and the way Henry is carrying on at the moment sometimes deserve it. But I was genuinely interested. We only got the Argie result down here not the game. Did see the Churchill Cup game but no idea where the Irish players stand in the pecking order.

Sangre

Basically they were two really scappy matches against Argentina. We're happy because we took the Argies up front in the rucks and scrums and beat them at it. Not too much promise in the backs. Imo we only lost both games as our only decent kicker was injured in the 1st match. I think the better team lost because of lack of execution. Didn't see much promise in the backs but thats probably due to lack of playing together. Don't bother with the games though very bad, especially second. In conclusion, I saw nothing to worry me come October.

Regarding the Churchill Cup, Ireland A were barely 3rd string as well. Had a few players straight from u20 6N. Considering that Ireland has same population as NZ but rugby is our 4th field sport, our strength in depth drops very quickly.

Pinetree Boy

Thanks Sangre. If you can beat the Argies upfront on their own turf there is not much wrongwith your pack. Who was first five and who is the front runner for WRC- O'Gara?

Sangre

Front five changed in both games. Stronger was the first test game of Best, Flannery, Young, O'Kelly, Hogan.
These games were about filling spaces on the 30 man RWC squad, our whole 1st team essentially was rested and is pretty much picked already. I'd say the only player who went to Argie who will start in the RWC (barring injuries) will be Flannery, although he was originally our 1st choice but badly injured. Also maybe N Best as blindside (played you on NZ tour). It also wasn't a first string Argie team.

Hard to get much from the games, more a case of who played themselves out of a position rather than who played themselves into one.

Front runner for OH for RWC? O'Gara by a country mile, no one is even close. If he gets injured we're royally fúcked, moreso than any other position. We're really lacking any real choice. Our probable second choice plays mostly 12 for his club and as a result isn't up to much and not intl. standard kicker.

ALH-06

I think Paddy Wallace (Irish second choice outhalf for all the Kiwis among us) is a player of fantastic potential. In both test matches he has started (Pacific Islands and Argentina), he has been composed and skillful, tho his kicking let him down a bit against the Argies which was unfortunate for him, as now everyone's writing him off. Kickers have bad games sometimes - that happens to everyone. A common word used to describe him is 'classy', and thats exactly what he is - great passer, breaks the line and always looks as if he has loads of time on the ball... Thats the mark of an excellent player. With Humphries retiring at Ulster, I think he has plenty of time to develop into a world class outhalf. Having said that, WRC might be too soon, hasnt pllayed at 10 enough, thats clear.

It is worrying alright that we're relying on a guy that regularly plays 12 as O'Garas replacement but Wallace is a fine player nonetheless.

Pinetree Boy

Haven't seen that much of O'Gara outside of games against NZ but leaving aside his great kicking game he doesn't seem to be a player who threatens the line (meaning that loose forwards can head straight at Irelands very dangerous mid-field) and his defence is shakey. Is there no one else in the likely squad who could kick goals?

RuggieBear

Pinetree Boy wrote:

Is there no one else in the likely squad who could kick goals?

nope...and that's why Ireland can not afford injuries at all

Sangre

Pinetree Boy wrote:

Haven't seen that much of O'Gara outside of games against NZ but leaving aside his great kicking game he doesn't seem to be a player who threatens the line (meaning that loose forwards can head straight at Irelands very dangerous mid-field) and his defence is shakey. Is there no one else in the likely squad who could kick goals?

To quote myself in another thread, I think its unfair to just call ROG a kicking out half;

I disagree, while ROG isn't a very potent attacking threat he is an incredible passer of the ball and is well able to unleash the back line into space with a beauty of pass. His out of hand kicking as well means that teams also can't utilise out and out rush defences giving the back line more space. Of course, I'd much rather if could actually make some decent breaks.

Basically, Ireland's problem has always been our depth, either through injuries or fading in the last 10/20 minutes due to a lack of a decent bench.

thebaz

i wish we could cherry pick the cream of the Pacific Islands !!

we might then even win the WC

MarVeL

Didn't ROG get a try in every game in the 6N this year. Bet that line felt fairly threatened

kevmy

Yup he's improved at attacking the line in recent years. But in fairness due to our slightly strange but brilliant combination of centres ROG really doesn't have to attack the line as much as other out-halfs might have to.
Anyway give me an out-half you is able to kick from the ground and out of hand over a fancy guy who breaks the line but lets you down on the basics.

As for Ireland's strength in depth. There are a number of guys we can't afford to lose. ROG, O Driscoll, Stringer, Darcy, O Connell and the Bull Hayes. We might be able to replace any one of those guys (bar ROG) on any given day but miss two and we lose to a good team (see France 6N)

duckysauce

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1r2vEd1_IA

lol cant wait for best to be unleashed

spider18

thebaz wrote:

i wish we could cherry pick the cream of the Pacific Islands !!

we might then even win the WC

this is a myth try naming the players in the current squad who we "cherry picked" and you'll find most were born in nz and don't tell me ireland dosen't play players not born in ireland (isaac boss).

zAbbo

Mils Muliaina, Joe Rokocoko, Sitiveni Sivivatu, Isaia Toeava, Jerry Collins, Chris Masoe, and Rodney So'oialo and thats from the current Tri-Nations squad. You could also include Greg Rawlinson who's a saffie.

Isaac Boss has an Irish granny from Antrim, personally I'd prefer Eoin Reddan to play instead of him.

You'd think with cherry picking all those islanders, you'd at least play a few games against them on the islands.

The AB's have never played Fiji, Tonga, Somoa or a PI team away from NZ, and have played Ireland more times than those countries put together, bloody disgrace.

LeeroyJones

Depth is the biggest issue for Ireland
Our first choice front row isn't amazing, it's good but if 1 or 2 get an injury we're in big trouble

Second row cover is a step up, I have no problem with bringing Mal in if we have to and Hogan looks impressive, no POC or DOC though!

Back row Ireland are spoiled for choice really, a back row of 6.Best 7.Jennings 8.Heaslip itself is top drawer

Scrum halves we seem OK, stringers relationship with OGara is key which is why he is first choice, but if Reddan needs to be called upon he will produce the goods. He was one of the most important players for Wasps' success this year. And then there's Boss-quick, physical and a fine pass so no problems there.

Out Halves is an issue, O'Gara is arguably the 2nd best 10 in the world+ a integral part to Irelands success and if hes injured we are in trouble. Yes both Wallace and Humphreys are good, but not who you want in if your a team trying to mount a serious challenge this autumn.

Centres, obviously any tem would miss Darcy and BOD if the worst scenario occurred but again I wouldnt be confident in Horgan 12 and Trimble 13,maybe one or the other, but together they pose nowhere near the threat we are now accustomed to.

Wingers and Full Backs we look OK in terms of depth. Carney is always going to be a threat for any defence, as is Murphy at full back, and Trimble is a fine talent if he needs to be called upon if there's an injury.

Hopefully none of these scenarios occur though!

spider18

spider18 wrote:

this is a myth try naming the players in the current squad who we "cherry picked" and you'll find most were born in nz and don't tell me ireland dosen't play players not born in ireland (isaac boss).

Are you taking the piss? Take off those blinkers