concern over eastern european crime?

griffdaddy

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Our economy is only so successful because of nutty lending practices by the banks, inspired by historically low interest rates. The EU hadn't much to do with that. Not that it stops them holding up Ireland as their poster child, in order to pull in Eastern states...

There's a lot more to our economy than frantic spending based on low interest rates. where do you think the funding for education and road infrastructure to attract American multinationals came from? What do you mean pull in Eastern States? they're dying to join, there's a queue of about 10 countries, although I'm sure the EU have all of them tricked.

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Nope, you become an EU contributor when you contribute financially from the country's coffers to the EU coffers, not via some sort of parasitic social arrangement, implied or otherwise.

Well going by any economic logic, and indeed, your logic used above that money being injected into an economy - be it borrowing, money sent home etc. - contributes to the overall well-being of an economy, we're helping those economies through repatriated profits, that is an undeniable fact, and the reason that they're all here.

SimpleSam06 wrote:

What happens when your immigrants turn out to be migrants, and you have a revolving door of people who will never settle or integrate?

This isn't a major concern. We have increasingly stringent immigration laws for those attempting to come here from outside the EU, you can't just waltz in here any more. The less well off countries from the EU's economy's are getting better, and this will stem the tide of foreigners coming here because they won't have a need to. We don't intend to allow unchecked numbers of future maiden EU citizens into our country either, rather very limited amounts, looked at the contrast between the numbers of Polish and Romanian immigrants here.

SimpleSam06

griffdaddy wrote:

There's a lot more to our economy than frantic spending based on low interest rates.

Not really. Go take a look at the housing bubble thread over in accommodation if you want an exhaustive breakdown of our economy's strengths and weaknesses.

griffdaddy wrote:

where do you think the funding for education and road infrastructure to attract American multinationals came from?

Education = civil service = taxes, most particularily on housing carraige and income, which are very much related. As for infrastructure, we have one of the shittiest infrastructures in the first world. Take for example the recent water debacle in Galway.

griffdaddy wrote:

What do you mean pull in Eastern States? they're dying to join, there's a queue of about 10 countries, although I'm sure the EU have all of them tricked.

When you have just escaped from a monolithic superbloc, the last thing you want to do is hop right in and join another one. So the EU points to Ireland, and says, see, theres a poor country hammered by a foreign power for much of its history, see how well its doing due to being in the EU? Wouldn't you like to be a part of that too?

griffdaddy wrote:

we're helping those economies through repatriated profits, that is an undeniable fact, and the reason that they're all here.

Yes, but its a mistake to say that we owe them that.

griffdaddy wrote:

The less well off countries from the EU's economy's are getting better, and this will stem the tide of foreigners coming here because they won't have a need to.

How many decades will that take? And how long do you think the economic good times will last in Ireland? Compare and contrast those two figures...

_feedback_

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

elviscostello: It appears the posts you reported mention that there are 'scum' from Eastern European countries. I'm sure there are, just as there are here, but he is not referring to individual troublemakers and not all the people from the country. As long as it is civil from here on out the thread will remain in good stead.

considering you didn't keep it to PM, I'll reply here....

He starts his very first post by asking the 'PC' crowd not to go at him.... obviously with intent and knowledge of the point he wanted to get across. That point being, he believes the influx of people from eastern europe is wrong and points out a number of times his opinion of the ones he has seen as being 'scum' . Then going on to paint them all with the same brush, by posting the comment "ok shur just let all the scum in from eastern europe" ... (his english , not mine )

So I'm sure you'll agree, there are a lot of people who would take strong offence to that.... myself included. So i'd ask again that you ask the user to edit/remove the posts I reported.

Thanks

nesf

elviscostello wrote:

considering you didn't keep it to PM, I'll reply here....

He starts his very first post by asking the 'PC' crowd not to go at him.... obviously with intent and knowledge of the point he wanted to get across. That point being, he believes the influx of people from eastern europe is wrong and points out a number of times his opinion of the ones he has seen as being 'scum' . Then going on to paint them all with the same brush, by posting the comment "ok shur just let all the scum in from eastern europe" ... (his english , not mine )

So I'm sure you'll agree, there are a lot of people who would take strong offence to that.... myself included. So i'd ask again that you ask the user to edit/remove the posts I reported.

Thanks

Don't argue it in thread. Take it to PM with either me or Tar.

nesf

As a bit of anecdotal evidence, I live in an apartment block full of eastern europeans and there hasn't been any trouble. We've had more problems with drunk Irish guys trying to kick the door in tbh.

_feedback_

nesf wrote:

Don't argue it in thread. Take it to PM with either me or Tar.

I did PM Tar earlier but got a reply through the thread rather than by PM. That's why I posted this:

elviscostello wrote:

considering you didn't keep it to PM, I'll reply here....

I have just PM'd Tar now again.....

Tar.Aldarion

nesf wrote:

As a bit of anecdotal evidence, I live in an apartment block full of eastern europeans and there hasn't been any trouble. We've had more problems with drunk Irish guys trying to kick the door in tbh.

Same kind of thing.
I worked in a nightclub last summer, most staff were eastern european.
Lovely people and work very hard, and always tried to help, even through abuse they got from drunk, ignorant Irish people.


I'll reply to that PM sometime after my meeting now.

Jumpy

shyjoe wrote:

why reported elvis?free speech not allowed here?

Free speech is allowed, to a point.
Of course what you you have written could hardly be classified as anything.
Before you go giving out about the Polish not speaking english, you may look at learning a bit yourself.

griffdaddy

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Not really. Go take a look at the housing bubble thread over in accommodation if you want an exhaustive breakdown of our economy's strengths and weaknesses.

I was always under the impression that we had one of the strongest tourism, manufacturing and administrative sectors in Europe? (I mean that in a questioning way, not an argumentative way)

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Education = civil service = taxes, most particularily on housing carraige and income, which are very much related. As for infrastructure, we have one of the shittiest infrastructures in the first world. Take for example the recent water debacle in Galway.

I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree here. For every argument supporting my point about the EU, i found one that didn't and vice versa. Plus, I said specifically our roads infrastructure.

wikipedia wrote:

: 'Many economists credit Ireland's growth to a low corporate taxation rate (10 to 12.5 percent throughout the late 1990s), and to net transfer payments from members of the European Union like France and Germany that were as high as 4% of gross national product. Ireland's membership in the European Union since 1973 helped also the country gain access to Europe's large markets. Ireland's trade had previously been predominantly with the United Kingdom.[2]

The EU aid was used to increase investment in the education system and physical infrastructure. The increased productive capacity of the Irish economy is often attributed to these investments, which made Ireland more attractive to high-tech businesses.[3]

The libertarian Cato Institute has suggested that the EU transfer payments were economically inefficient and may have actually slowed growth.[4] The Heritage Foundation also downplayed the role of transfer payments.[3] Other analyses suggest that much of the growth was due to the fact that the economy of Ireland had lagged behind the rest of northwestern Europe for so long that it had become one of the few sources of a relatively large, low-wage labour pool remaining in Western Europe (which had the added advantages of being English speaking with access to the EU markets and was in a timezone suitable for business dealings with both Continental Europe and the US east coast)'

The reference the Economist and a few other credible sources in that wiki, so it's fairly credible.

SimpleSam06 wrote:

When you have just escaped from a monolithic superbloc, the last thing you want to do is hop right in and join another one. So the EU points to Ireland, and says, see, theres a poor country hammered by a foreign power for much of its history, see how well its doing due to being in the EU? Wouldn't you like to be a part of that too?

And they'd say 'Yes we would, because you spend money on building roads and bridges for us, instead of making us build huge statues of Stalin.'

SimpleSam06 wrote:

How many decades will that take? And how long do you think the economic good times will last in Ireland? Compare and contrast those two figures...

Well at the moment we won't be taking a huge amount of any new countries, and at the moment the economies of the countries here are getting better. It's not like these countries have no potential, their populations and resources have just been mismanaged.

wikipedia wrote:

The prospect of closer integration with the European Union has put the (Polands) economy back on track, with growth of 3.7% annually in 2003, a rise from 1.4% annually in 2002. In 2004, GDP growth equaled 5.4%, in 2005 3.3% and in 2006 6.1%. For 2007, the government has set a target for GDP growth at 6.5 to 7.0%

So yes we don't have to do it, we can close up our borders whenever we want. We're an island, it should be no problem. But these guys are taking jobs that nobody wants anyway, which is making our service sector a lot bigger and better than it should be. Of course there's going to be collateral damage, but at the moment it doesn't seem important enough to kick up a fuss about.

SimpleSam06

griffdaddy wrote:

I was always under the impression that we had one of the strongest tourism, manufacturing and administrative sectors in Europe?

Your impression would be woefully inaccurate. Most of our manufacturing is from foreign companies, who are becoming increasingly disenchanted with the high rates of pay in Ireland, and can relocate as and when it suits them. Tourism only accounts for about ~5% of the economy, if I recall correctly, and thats taking a dive as well, due to "rip off Ireland".

griffdaddy wrote:

I said specifically our roads infrastructure.

Well in fairness even the wikipedia article gives many dissenting views on the value of the EU role in Ireland. I'm not debating that the EU has played a valuable role, however, it does not mean we are obliged to open our borders to all and sundry. Ireland is a sovereign nation.

Also, are you seriously going to tell me that Ireland has a good road infrastructure?

griffdaddy wrote:

And they'd say 'Yes we would, because you spend money on building roads and bridges for us, instead of making us build huge statues of Stalin.'

And they would know that for a fact because the EU can point to Ireland. Talk is cheap...

griffdaddy wrote:

It's not like these countries have no potential, their populations and resources have just been mismanaged.

National averages and economies don't move at a pace of months, they move at a pace of years and decades. Our economy is approaching the downturn in the boom-bust cycle, some would say its already heading south. Theirs will take decades to recover from eastern bloc occupation, during which time we can look forward to further waves of migrant workers.

griffdaddy wrote:

So yes we don't have to do it, we can close up our borders whenever we want. We're an island, it should be no problem.

However we do share a common land border with the UK, who by all accounts were even more suprised than us at the number of Polish immigrants who arrived into their country.

griffdaddy wrote:

But these guys are taking jobs that nobody wants anyway, which is making our service sector a lot bigger and better than it should be.

If by bigger and better you mean grossly more profitable for the few owners, yes I'd agree. As for jobs no one else wants, tell that to the student populations over the summer trying to get work, or even part time jobs to support themselves in college.

A massive influx of underpaid migrant workers has the effect of lowering the wages for other people, since the mgrants are perfectly willing to accept living conditions that native populations would deem unacceptable, even inhumane.

This has the knock on effect of lowering the living standard for the lower tier of workers, and widening the gap between the rich and the poor, never mind the macroeconomic effects of leakage from the economy.

griffdaddy

Is Ireland's main problem with its road network not commuters at peak hours rather than haulage which occurs at off peak hours anyway? In relation to using Ireland to attract Eastern Countries to the EU, I don't think the governments would be as easily duped as you'd believe. I don't know about their economies taking decades to recover, if you look at somewhere like the Czech Republic, their standard of living and infrastructure seems to be advancing at rocket pace. Take a future EU accession state, Serbia, their economy is also rocketing, now being dubbed the 'Balkan Tiger.' I think people underestimate the difference in culture between eastern and western europe, i've no doubt these people are gonna want to return home once their countries get their shít together, a lot like how Ireland saw a lot of people returning home once our economy stabilised. With regards our strong tertiary sector, it provides huge taxes (although this could be more, in this scenario i guess our low corporation tax is a double edged sword)
I am a 3rd level student trying to get summer work, there's plenty of jobs around, I haven't looked properly yet, but i could probably be in a job this time next week. I don't think wages have been dropping in Ireland at all since immigrants arrived, maybe for foreigners who get paid under the table they have. I have a fairly limited knowledge of economics, so that's about all I can contribute on this front. But to get back to the actual thread, on a purely personal level, i don't find foreigners to be any trouble at all, they're certainly a whole lot better than previous groups who didn't work.

SimpleSam06

griffdaddy wrote:

In relation to using Ireland to attract Eastern Countries to the EU, I don't think the governments would be as easily duped as you'd believe.

Who says they are being duped? The EU does provide substantial benefits. And they can use Ireland as a poster child they would not otherwise have to prove that.

griffdaddy wrote:

Take a future EU accession state, Serbia, their economy is also rocketing, now being dubbed the 'Balkan Tiger.'

Well when you are starting from nothing, any advancement is "rocketing". Quoting growth of 12% per annum isn't so impressive when you are talking about a country recovering from war.

griffdaddy wrote:

I am a 3rd level student trying to get summer work, there's plenty of jobs around, I haven't looked properly yet, but i could probably be in a job this time next week.

I have no real figures except immigrant populations in Ireland, almost all of whom must be working. Perhaps its not a problem in your area. Looking at the local papers however, to use another anecdote, I see a great many people putting adverts up as available for work, so its a problem for them.

griffdaddy wrote:

I don't think wages have been dropping in Ireland at all since immigrants arrived, maybe for foreigners who get paid under the table they have.

One trick that is used particularily in the hotel and catering industries is to keep people permanently in "training". That way they can legally pay them whatever they like.

Dr. Seuss

Sounds more like the OP just lives in a sh*t area!

Gran Hermano

Commander Vimes wrote:

i heard a woman on joe duffy talking about the poles getting bmw's off the government

You misheard, she said she got up the pole in the back of Joe Duffy's BMW

SimpleSam06

griffdaddy wrote:

I am a 3rd level student trying to get summer work, there's plenty of jobs around, I haven't looked properly yet, but i could probably be in a job this time next week.

Just found an interesting thread which puts the lie to this...

griffdaddy

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Just found an interesting thread which puts the lie to this...

Well it's certainly not a problem for me, I'm starting work tomorrow. (Dublin South) neither is it for any of my friends, they all picked up jobs pretty easily. maybe, as someone pointed out in that thread, students aren't willing to be flexible enough?

SimpleSam06

griffdaddy wrote:

maybe, as someone pointed out in that thread, students aren't willing to be flexible enough?

Who pointed what out?

griffdaddy

Se&#225 wrote: »

Oh i totally agree, I am not a racist in the slightest and love to see non-nationals in Ireland! It's really cool to see... but managers are very willing to employ them because they are here for the long run, will work any hours that are given to them and won't (usually) quit and go back to college in September. So yeah... totally right there.

I can't really debate this any more because personally i see zero problem with immigration, it doesn't affect me on any basis at all, except that it gives the city I live in a diverse new look and atmosphere.

SimpleSam06

griffdaddy wrote:

I can't really debate this any more because personally i see zero problem with immigration, it doesn't affect me on any basis at all, except that it gives the city I live in a diverse new look and atmosphere.

Er if you see students going back to college in September as "inflexible", theres nothing more to be said to you...

griffdaddy

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Er if you see students going back to college in September as "inflexible", theres nothing more to be said to you...

No, i see people who want to work for 3 weeks before they go interrailing/J1/Sun holiday and then want to work 3 weeks when they get back, but can't work Saturdays or Sundays cause they go drinking or whatever at the weekend as inflexible. If I was an employer I'd obviously pick someone who really wants to work there and make money, rather than someone who is using it as a stop-gap, regardless of nationality or race. Just to return to what this thread is about, do you see immigration as a fundamental problem in Ireland?

Fighting Irish

I always look through the local paper here in Carlow to see who's been up in court the past week and these days it always seems to be way more foreigners, mostly drink driving and illegal fishing though

SimpleSam06

griffdaddy wrote:

No, i see people who want to work for 3 weeks before they go interrailing/J1/Sun holiday and then want to work 3 weeks when they get back, but can't work Saturdays or Sundays cause they go drinking or whatever at the weekend as inflexible.

You seem to have a fairly twisted, backward outlook on students as a whole, but even with that, lets just go back to what I said earlier... since the migrants are perfectly willing to accept living conditions that native populations would deem unacceptable, even inhumane... which is exactly what we see here.

griffdaddy wrote:

If I was an employer I'd obviously pick someone who really wants to work there and make money, rather than someone who is using it as a stop-gap, regardless of nationality or race.

Oh hell yeah, employers want as close to slave labour as possible, and migrants are a giant leap in that direction!

griffdaddy

SimpleSam06 wrote:

You seem to have a fairly twisted, backward outlook on students as a whole, but even with that, lets just go back to what I said earlier... since the migrants are perfectly willing to accept living conditions that native populations would deem unacceptable, even inhumane... which is exactly what we see here.

No, i have a realistic outlook of how students behave, let's not forget that I'm a third-level student in what is probably the biggest course in the biggest college in the state, and I'm involved in a number of societies and student-based organisations. I'm hardly going to lie negatively about the group of people that I am both a part of, and have most in common with. The inhumane conditions are the landlord's responsibility, and if foreigner nationals are willing to put up with them, well that's their prerogative.

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Oh hell yeah, employers want as close to slave labour as possible, and migrants are a giant leap in that direction!

Which employers do? are you championing the cause of foreign workers or bemoaning their detrimental effect on society?

SimpleSam06

griffdaddy wrote:

No, i have a realistic outlook of how students behave, let's not forget that I'm a third-level student in what is probably the biggest course in the biggest college in the state, and I'm involved in a number of societies and student-based organisations.

Listen baby, for all I know you could be a 42-year old bus driver with a hairy back sitting typing comments in from a sweaty opium den in Zimbabwe. From the unrelated comments in that thread I linked to, students are trying to find work, and simply can't find it, which supports my point of view like clockwork.

I'll leave it there, since there seems to be a bad dose of gotta-have-the-last-word-itis going around...