Dublin City Comic Con 07

MarkHall

No plans for Rob that I'm aware of.


Why the Hate Fysh?

RawK

tara towers?

couldnt have found a more centralised local with easier accessability no?

Fysh

Why the hate for Liefeld? Well, it's best summarised by the following image :



A picture whose only saving grace is that it was turned into:



Seriously, the guy's artwork is horrible, his one lasting contribution to the industry was to make those god-awful spandex costumes with about 800 billion pouches popular, and as if that wasn't bad enough he claimed in an interview last year that some of his colleagues nicknamed him "the King", presumably an attempt to claim that he's in some way comparable to Jack Kirby.

To quote one of the many Scans_daily posts about him, "Nuke it from orbit".

professor kaos

WOW! sounds like theres a handful of you that don't want this comic-con!?
let me get this right? We finally have a comic-con with a great line up of talent and creativity, and some of us still resort to the aul irish sterotype of begrudery!:mad: Can you not be grateful that someone has taking on the responsibility of trying to put on this massive effort to highlight and celebrate the world of comics. I'm sure the 3rd place guys have better things to be doing in their own time.
ok, everyone likes to champion there own favourites, whatever genre you're into, i'm not going to denouncing the con because the likes of Evan Dorkin or Dave sims are not on the list!
This comic-cons guest list is going to attract alot of people and attention , national and possibly international. That will bring attention to comics in general, if your self proclaimed indie ( in the end , you want to make money from it, right? comics need to be funded .) title is there at a table ,thats half the battle already, the people are there ,you just have to get them to read/ buy it. The con is providing the audience, you have to supply the work. All the major talent thats going to be attending had to start somewhere too?
And what about the people who want to see Jim lee + co.? I want to see a dealers room (and see cool stuff that i can't afford !). It looks like this con is trying to appeal to everyone, fans, artists, writers, collectors ,as well as the casual punter passing by. Not everyone is going to like everything thats on offer, if we all liked the same stuff it would be a very boring world!
Hope theres new Shiznit and Mbleh! ready by November! At least Bob Byrne and co. can put there hate to good use!;)
As for the choice of venue, it's only 10 mins away from the city center,
see you , winngers included in November.:D

Fysh

I can only judge by what I've seen so far and yeah, the scope of the con may expand once further information is released.

But, between what I saw of the con last year and what's on the poster & site for this year's con, I see nothing that I could use to convince a non-comics-fanboy to think about attending. And I'm not lambasting John & Co when I say that - putting on a con is a lot of work, and they deserve a lot of credit for going to all this effort.

I still think that it is genuinely a shame that the con, which could be a great way of getting non-comic fanboys (or even non-superhero fanboys) to check out the state of comics and see if there's anything for them, seems to be at the moment focusing on the mainstream market. Which of course is the organiser's prerogative, but that's not really something being contested. And if the con's been in the planning stages since last year but the details of indie/small-press related events within the con aren't yet out there, I'm guessing that at the moment the indie/small press angle will probably be limited to "there will be table available for them to exhibit if they wish to".

I've no doubt it will be a success amongst its target audience. But success depends on what the organiser's ambitions for the con are, and I guess the "bitching"/disappointment/comments voiced so far are chiefly about aspects of those ambitions that a few of us aren't particularly impressed by.

Edited to add:
For what it's worth - I run my crappy little webcomic and just about keep the comic challenge running. I have no interest in trying to make money from comics, and so am not personally going to be affected by the relative quality of the indie/small press section of the con in terms of being able to sell stuff or raise my profile or whatever. It will simply affect whether I have any interest in going to the con, because the mainstream stuff isn't really my thing.

ztoical

professor kaos wrote:

WOW! sounds like theres a handful of you that don't want this comic-con!?
let me get this right? We finally have a comic-con with a great line up of talent and creativity, and some of us still resort to the aul irish sterotype of begrudery!:mad: Can you not be grateful that someone has taking on the responsibility of trying to put on this massive effort to highlight and celebrate the world of comics. I'm sure the 3rd place guys have better things to be doing in their own time.

This is the last comment I am making on this thread cus honestly I am beyond surprised at the reaction of both people on this board and the lads from the 3rd place. The comment that was made about "a small but vocal minority of individuals who appear intent on
influencing the program of events" I'm assuming is aimed at me. Thats a pretty clear shut up and **** off statement as far as I'm concerned.

First off with regards to "we finally have a comic con" what about it? Maybe for some people here yes this will be the only con you attend this year or maybe ever but thats not the case for everyone, for some people cons are serious work. I work full time as a free lance artists - while animation and illustration jobs consume most of my day I invest alot of my time and money attending as many cons as I can during the year.....between now and October I have 6 con tables paid for, the furthest one being on the west coast of the states [and thats just comic cons I'm not counting arts festivals or animation festivals]. Yes organizing a con is alot of work but you have chosen of your own free will to organize so you should be open to feedback both positive and negative.

You want more people to come and spend more money? then listen to what they are saying. Exhibitors who are attending have to pay for their tables, travel, hotel, printing costs etc etc If I'm spending that amount of money then I'm going to make damn sure I get my moneys worth. Do I want to make money? of course I have bills, do I think i will make money from a con? Hell no, I did around 8 cons since last June and out of that 8 nearly all I broke even on which is what most cartoonists aim for at cons, one 1 actually made a damn decent profit and two I lost money. I lost money at last years john con mainly because stuff was stolen off my table.........something that has never happened to me at any other con.

I exhibited at last years John con [sorry Dublin city comic con is too much of a mouth ful and lets face it thats what we all call it anyway] and had both positive and negative feedback regarding it. At nearly every other con I've attend the organizers went out of their way to get feedback from exhibitors, sometimes they would just wander round and ask people, sometimes they'd email after the show or in the case of MoCCA and San Diego comic con they gave you a questionnaire towards the end of the last day and collected them as you left. How foolish and arrogant of me to assume that the organizers of this con would work the same.

their reply of "Let us make this very clear - No one
interest, mainstream, niche, whatever shall influence the Dublin City Comic
Con in any way shape or form. Our management committee is more than equipped
to devise a program of events that will cater to the audience attending." eh Hello we are the audience! I'm sorry but that sounds to much like "I'm a 10 year old child, this is my toy and no one else is allowed to play with it". You put on an event, you post the details of the event and o my god shock horror people on the internet start to discus the event! This is a message board of course we are going to talk about what we'd like to see and what we wouldn't like to see. Does fysh really think Leifield is going to show? no but does that mean he shouldn't post about it anymore?

Why should we say only positive things? What does that achieve? How does that ever help anyone? You want this event to get bigger and better ever year? then feedback needs to given and people need to learn how to listen to objective criticism and not misread it as a personal attack or someone trying to take over. Replying with statements like "when you put your own con together" [which is not a reference to bombidols post but an email i was sent] is just pointless. So I put one together [actually I will be putting 24 hour comics day on again but thats a totally separate thing] and its all indie stuff like people seem to assume I want, what the **** have i achieved? I've divided up an already small community into even smaller chunks. I read mainstream books, I've bloody worked for mainstream publishers, I prefer doing alternative comics. I'm not a fan of manga but I would push for its inclusions in any comics event happening here. Yes I have no interest in seeing Jim Lee, I've seen him at other cons, he's boring but I do realize that alot of people will be looking forward to seeing him and he will bring certain numbers in. Have I in any post on this thread said I didn't want him at the con? That I only wanted indie press? No the only issue I brought up with the gust list was the lack of a female artist/writter.

I also never said we should only be pushing indie press or that it should be pushed with the same amount of energy as the mainstream guests. To people outside of comics the name Jim Lee isn't going to mean anything........like i said earlier putting together a comic battle or something along those lines will be of more interest to the general press then a list of names. O but ztoical why should we care about non comic people? Cus you were all non comic people at some point. how do you get new readers? My non comic friends have come into comic book stores with me and stood there looking bored while i shopped but last year one came with me to a con London to help me run the table [she heard London and didn't listen to the rest of the conversation ] She actually went round and talked to people and one cartoonists did a drawing for her which she has framed in her room, she actually picked up a bunch of comics after taking with the people at the tables and overall just had a bloody good time and thats all I ever want to see happen at a con.

Now I'm going to go back to watching some animation render really really slowly.


edited to add: the first new york comic con was a total mess, go read any of the hundreds of blog reports if you didnt hear about it and loads of industry people and fans complained, bitched, moaned whatever you want to call it about it and this years new york comic con while still suffering from some issues was a major improvment all round because the organisers listened.

Jonesy3110

Let us make this very clear - No one
interest, mainstream, niche, whatever shall influence the Dublin City Comic
Con in any way shape or form. Our management committee is more than equipped
to devise a program of events that will cater to the audience attending.

Do you think if Stan Lee came along and wanted to make a few tiny changes to the con he'd get the same snide reply?

Saying that though, I just want to point out that I'm really looking forward to it The whole line up, while it may not appeal to others, totally appeals to me :P

the Shades

I think this is all getting out of hand. No one ever directly criticised the con, or said changes should be made, they simply suggested events that could be run alongside the con.

The guys from The 3rd PLace have done a great job witht he guest list so far, as John said it's 5 months away a lot can happen between now and then. I think some things may have been taken a little too personally and perhaps were phrased a little badly. Deep breath everyone!

Now who mentioned Carlos Pacheco? I love that guy.

Fysh

Shut up you with your conciliatory tone, stop trying to distract people from my attempt to raise an anti-Liefeld rabble!

the Shades

I'm pretty certain that pic is doctored. Yeah Liefield has all the artistic talent of an ant on crack but those breasts have been enlarged!

He usually just goes for pinheads anyway!

bombidol

nope

Uncle Spunk

Ah nuts, just as I get reconnected to the net, the Dublin Con arguement is over.
Well all I got to say is I think we all realise it's a commercial venture and the type of fans it'll attract don't care much about indies and definitely not small press. Are there female comic artists anyway? Like big names in the biz?

In terms of supporting the Irish artists, Mr Hendrick is by far the best shop in Dublin to deal with and a decent bloke.It's a huge gamble for him to do this and we should be glad to have ANY comics event, be it mainstream or otherwise.

Who cares anyway? Comics are gay.

bombidol

Im going to touch your willy at the con Bob. Just so you know.

Fysh

Heh, you're assuming you'll be able to find his willy, bombidol...

As for the women in comics thing, Cully Hamner, Gail Simone and Becky Cloonan are three names that come to mind straight away for me. There aren't as many high-profile women in comics, but this list is a good starting point...

Emmett

Cully Hamner is a girl? Didn't know that. She's one of my favorite artists. I used to go to school with a guy named Cully, wonder was he a girl too.

Fysh

Doh. Just went and checked and no, Cully Hamner is in fact a bloke. Dunno why I thought he was a she; some sort of crossed wire somewhere. Sorry bout that.

Eamo71

Jonesy3110 wrote:

Do you think if Stan Lee came along and wanted to make a few tiny changes to the con he'd get the same snide reply?

Saying that though, I just want to point out that I'm really looking forward to it The whole line up, while it may not appeal to others, totally appeals to me :P

Oh yers PLEASE!! Stan Lee would be great. Let's work to get the creator of the MU over here next year that'd be cool!!

Emmett

Stan Lee would be a awesome guest. I'd pay to see that guy on a pub crawl around Dublin.

J Hendrick

Emmett wrote:

Stan Lee would be a awesome guest. I'd pay to see that guy on a pub crawl around Dublin.

Stan would indeed rock, but he's a very busy man.

I've actually contacted Stan before about it all but the dates have never been good for him.

Just want to clear a few things up here, over the last few days and at the last meeting we all had about the con a few things were brought to my attention.

First up is this post by Cliodhna Lyons on her live journal.

Update The dates for the Dublin City Comic Con [or rather John Con cus its easier] were posted during the week but after my comments on this thread I will more then likely not be attending [or welcome if the emails and general comments from others are anything to go by].

Am I annoyed? No not really, disappointed? Maybe a little, not over the con [the highlight of last years was the comic jam in the pub after which was nothing to do with con] but rather the fact that what I said was mis-communicated and blown up into something it wasn't. If my comments were misunderstood as me demanding the con do this that or the other thing, well shame on me for not making myself understood. All I wanted was to have a comic jam, even said I do all the work and pay for it - this someone how became me wanting to take over the con and make it all small press. I will hold my hand up and say I wasn't the most tactful in my replies to the con people [I will not say "management committee" as that is the most stupid title i've ever heard] but honestly the emails i got from them were very condescending and it was a knee jerk reaction, I actually could have been so much worse.

Actually wait I am annoyed, people have been emailing and messaging me with some rather stupid comments the majority of them being "john is working so hard on this how dare you try and bring him down" WTF? Where the hell did I do that? I am well aware that I am loud and abrasive but I don't tend to shout my mouth off cus I want attention like I've seen somepeople do, I tend to only comment on stuff I have some knowledge on. Also since when has it been the case that if someones worked hard on something we are suddenly not allowed have an opinion/comment on it?

It's a shame really, the whole comic book "industry" in ireland is such a mess at times. Too many big fish in one very small pond. And all way to clicky most of the time - your either in with Robs lot or now it seems Johns lot. Granted there are the few who float back and forth between the two and respect to them that do but honestly its to much like a flash back to secondary school for me.

Sometimes I wonder if I should learn to keep my big trap shut but at the end of the day what would that achieve? I'd just end up annoyed at myself for being a blind sheep following everyone else. Better to be unpopular with others then with myself cus at the end of the day I spend alot more time with me then I do with anyone else.

OK, I'll be honest here, I actually was kind of aware some people were unhappy about something, and even though there's a post from me in this thread, i didn't actually write it. The lads have access to this account if they need it and can post here if the want to. I don't mind. Now, as I said, i knew some people were unhappy about stuff but I reviewed everything that was brought to me on Thursday. I read all of the emails, all the posts here and on other forums as well as the above post. And I think i should at least attempt to respond to some things.

OK, I'm going to start with bits from the above post and work my way though some other stuff, here goes.

Update The dates for the Dublin City Comic Con [or rather John Con cus its easier] were posted during the week but after my comments on this thread I will more then likely not be attending [or welcome if the emails and general comments from others are anything to go by].

OK, first off, while I'm in charge of the over all con, it's not John Con, a lot of other people are involved with this, and give their time freely and want to make it a good and inclusive event.

Also, I'm not entirely sure where you got the impression you weren't welcome. I've not seen that said by any of my crew, either here or anywhere else. Not once were you told that in any of the emails exchanged between you and either Dave or Bruno. So, as i said, unless you're referring to someone else, who has nothing to do with the con and therefore not under my general control I really can't guess how you came to this opinion.

Am I annoyed? No not really, disappointed? Maybe a little, not over the con [the highlight of last years was the comic jam in the pub after which was nothing to do with con] but rather the fact that what I said was mis-communicated and blown up into something it wasn't. If my comments were misunderstood as me demanding the con do this that or the other thing, well shame on me for not making myself understood. All I wanted was to have a comic jam, even said I do all the work and pay for it - this someone how became me wanting to take over the con and make it all small press. I will hold my hand up and say I wasn't the most tactful in my replies to the con people [I will not say "management committee" as that is the most stupid title i've ever heard] but honestly the emails i got from them were very condescending and it was a knee jerk reaction, I actually could have been so much worse.

Actually Cliodhna, they weren't condescending replies at all. they were polite and respectful, something that having read your emails to my staff, I can't say about yours. In fact, I'm very impressed my crew were as polite as they were. because some of the emails you sent were just plain rude and ignorant, and having then posted online and saying what you've said here has actually annoyed me. As you're painting my staff as being something they're not.

If you really want to go down this route I have zero problems with actually posting these emails online and letting the public decide for themselves, but I wouldn't like it to come to that. I do think if people actually read these for themselves then they may get a different impression of how this actually started, rather than the way you have portrayed it online. But make no illusions to the fact that where you say you were misunderstood or miscommunicated. You weren't. You were rude and still you received polite replys. Something that you didn't actually deserve. but my staff were professional in how they dealt with you and I am quite honestly offended that you would say they were anything but to other people here and in other places.

I also think it's ridiculous that you didn't even wait until the comic cons schedule was even posted before you started doing this. There are events scheduled for both small press and the Irish comics scene. In fact these events were scheduled even before Bristol, I honestly didn't see you there but if you had have just asked i would have been more than happy to have talked to you about them and listened to any suggestions you may have had.

[I will not say "management committee" as that is the most stupid title i've ever heard]

Well I'm very sorry this annoys you, but that's exactly what we are.

Actually wait I am annoyed, people have been emailing and messaging me with some rather stupid comments the majority of them being "john is working so hard on this how dare you try and bring him down" WTF? Where the hell did I do that? I am well aware that I am loud and abrasive but I don't tend to shout my mouth off cus I want attention like I've seen somepeople do, I tend to only comment on stuff I have some knowledge on. Also since when has it been the case that if someones worked hard on something we are suddenly not allowed have an opinion/comment on it?

Hmmm, see, this is something I have zero control over too. I can't stop people from having opinions or making comments, i can't tell them to stop nor will I. I never messaged you and asked any of these things. And while I'm grateful that there are people who will defend me and the effort being put into the con, however where you say you only comment on things you have knowledge on, I disagree here. You knew nothing of the cons events but you were still rude, you still posted everywhere, you still misled people into thinking my staff were something they weren't. And quite frankly, I don't think it's cool.

It's a shame really, the whole comic book "industry" in ireland is such a mess at times. Too many big fish in one very small pond. And all way to clicky most of the time - your either in with Robs lot or now it seems Johns lot. Granted there are the few who float back and forth between the two and respect to them that do but honestly its to much like a flash back to secondary school for me.

Sorry, but I don't play that game. i never have. I pay zero attention to Sub-City and will continue to do so. Why? because they have zero impact on how I make decisions. I've an awful lot of respect for Rob, he's achieved a lot with Freak Show and that should be commended. He's achieved an awful lot in his stores and I admire that. I don't however subscribe to the idea of there being a Johns gang vs. Robs gang. If people do think like that, that's down to them. I don't, never have, never will. I have better things to do in life than focus on petty rivalries.

As for your statement that the irish comics industry is a mess, i disagree. i think it's pretty bad that you've written it off like that too.

We've never had this many comics being produced before by some very talented people. You've got books like freakshow, Mbleah, Sancho, Boredom, The Shiznit, Daddy's Rules, Spell mafia and others.

You've got books being produced in the irish language, you have books that are being sold at cons and in comic stores around the world. I don't know about anyone else but I'm very happy with that. We have excellent irish talent producing web comics like Adam Murray's Drastic. So to say the industry's a mess is a little short sighted i think.

And one thing I'm not happy about, is the notion we don't support the irish comics scene.

Go ask the likes of Bob Byrne, Gar Cummings, Bob Nielson, Alan Nolan, Dec Shalvey among others.

Sometimes I wonder if I should learn to keep my big trap shut but at the end of the day what would that achieve? I'd just end up annoyed at myself for being a blind sheep following everyone else. Better to be unpopular with others then with myself cus at the end of the day I spend alot more time with me then I do with anyone else.

Nope, you shouldn't keep your mouth shut, but what you could have done was asked me personally. I wasn't here the day you sent the mails, but I'm here most days, and if you couldn't get me by email you could have called the store, or you could have dropped in.

There are literally millions of ways to get me if you're looking for me, but you were impatient, then you were rude, and now you started a mess online here and in other places.

Now that's condescending. To me and to everyone else that works hard on this venture.

Cliodhna, I'm not fighting with you here, I'm not interested in getting into an argument or a flame war or whatever, and i think it'd be better for you and for me if you did attend. I have not once said you were not welcome and I'd appreciate it if you did clarify everything in public. As this is the way you've chosen to go about this I'd prefer if you'd end it that way too.

But please don't do something like this again, because at the end of the day negative comments and feelings drags everyone down.

Now on to other points, the issue of female guests, or lack of if you like. We didn't specifically ask any creators based on their ethnicity or gender, we just happened to ask people whom we knew and who we thought the fans of comics would like to see and meet.

We asked a total of 54 creators, and yes there were women in there. We talked to them to see if they could attend and a lot of people were interested but for whatever reason they couldn't come so we've moved on and focused our attention on the guests who could.

I honestly didn't even think that it was an issue, as i don't really think like that, I was just trying to put on a big fun show that hopefully will be successful for years to come. i thought that people would be happy, I learned from all my mistakes from last years and i'm trying to put this on the map. But I guess it's true what they say, you can only please some of the people some of the time.

i would have liked if people would have actually waited to see what we had in store for the convention but I fully expect we're not going to please everyone 100%. What we are trying to do is try our hardest to please them as much as possible.

Now, as for the comment regarding the poster lacking any small press, every single con I've gone to has never had small press on the poster, they always get advertised on the site. Also, that's not the final poster. that was just to get the basic info across. there's a lot more to go on to the final poster including a couple of more guests.

Small press will indeed be supported at the convention, but we do have other issues to attend to, also there's going to be an awful lot of people at this convention and it really is a good opportunity for small press books to get some attention.

I think that's about all i have to say right now, I'll go through the rest of the thread and reply to any other questions or comments later, and I promise I'll stop by here about once a week and see if there's anything else here for me to answer.

If you have any queries please feel free to email the sore on info@irishcomicshop.com. One of the guys will get back to you. If you're asking a question specifically for me then please mark it for my attention.

Cheers folks,

J.

J Hendrick

bombidol wrote:

I'm sure John is open to anything that add's to the fun level of the event. Personally I'd like to see some stuff for kids there too. Paint painting and some free comics etc, Cause A: Apparently theres still a few kids reading! and B: I personally know a few mammys and daddys with kids that would like to go, so im sure theres more.

Yup, there will be.

Nevyn

why are you reposting from someones lj to here ?
Do you have thier permission to repost and publish thier journal entry via boards.ie ?

J Hendrick

Thaedydal wrote:

why are you reposting from someones lj to here ?
Do you have thier permission to repost and publish thier journal entry via boards.ie ?

it's about me, and the link was sent.

What's the difference with a live journal post?

i don't get the problem?

J Hendrick

Thaedydal wrote:

There are several, clearly they have an idea of who thier target punters are and
are going to work to that idea and sod anyone who is not that narrow focus demographic.

We do indeed have a marketing plan and budget to and we do have a target audience, but there's no reason why we can't highlight and put the spotlight on other things too

this event is going to highlight the irish comic book industy and scene like it has never been highlighted before.

Also, you're suggestion that we'd say sod off to anyone who offered suggestions is a little harsh in my opinion.

bombidol

The LJ entry was posted here unedited and with credit to the original writer. I dont think theres a large issue there to be honest. It also contains comments on an event thats 100% relevent to this thread.
Its the same as a band using someones review on their website etc which is widely practiced.
I'm not one of Johns gang, I shop in every comic shop in Dublin. I have no allegiance to anyone but find the 3rd place to be the best one around for my personal tastes and loved last years con, I look forward to the next one.

J Hendrick

bombidol wrote:

The LJ entry was posted here unedited and with credit to the original writer. I dont think theres a large issue there to be honest. It also contains comments on an event thats 100% relevent to this thread.
Its the same as a band using someones review on their website etc which is widely practiced.
I'm not one of Johns gang, I shop in every comic shop in Dublin. I have no allegiance to anyone but find the 3rd place to be the best one around for my personal tastes and loved last years con, I look forward to the next one.

That's what I thought too.

And i wouldn't have you in my gang.

You need to have spikey hair.

bombidol

I dont even have a hair cut, let alone spikey hair.

Fysh

I've been trying to figure out how to word this post for longer than I care to think about as it's mostly a direct response to John's post above, so I figure I'm just gonna run with it as is and point out that this is my opinion as a poster on this forum rather than as mod, except where specifically stated otherwise.

1) JohnCon is a nickname for the con that appeared last year and was, as far as I can see widely used. If nothing else it's shorter than Dublin City Comic Con, which is enough justification for its use as far as I'm concerned.

2) Having seen the emails involved and talked to Cliodhna about this at some length, the replies I saw to her mails did get increasingly condescending in tone. (Which is backed up by the tone of this post, which effectively says "we know who we're catering to so you can keep your comments to yourself" - or at least thats how I understood it, and I don't think I'm the only one).

I don't think Cliodhna has ever claimed she is the world's most polite speaker/poster, but given that she pointed out that she was trying not to sound snarky it's a bit disingenuous to claim that none of your replies were in any way condescending but that she was a raging harridan spouting profanity. Personally, I think it was a case of miscommunication and a bit of misunderstanding on both sides which probably wouldn't have happened if it had been a conversation held in person rather than over email, but that's just me.

3) Regarding the schedule : this post says that planning for the event started last year. If that's the case, then you can't complain if there's speculation about the events that might or might not happen - promotion for the event is starting, without the schedule detail being released yet. Speculation is hardly a rarity in comics fandom, but once there's more info available about the schedule the speculation will adapt accordingly.

In fact, I've got to say that if the small press/alternative comics aspect of the con is going to have a significant scale then I'm surprised it's not being pushed more heavily. The mainstream fans probably already know about the con and whether they're going; the small-press/alternative audience (beyond the creators themselves) is going to be a somewhat different cross-section of the population and is if anything less likely to hear about the con through the conventional channels, so a bit of extra publicity certainly wouldn't hurt. Of course, if it's not going to be significant in terms of the overall con then this isn't a concern. But at the moment only you and the management committee know which is the case, and that's off-putting to people like me who don't particularly care about mainstream superhero comics.

4) I've said it before, I'll say it again : a lot of the discussion in this thread is people posting in threads online. Posting snidely and snarkily in many cases, but hey, that's comics fandom.

That said, I'm getting tired of this thread and the recurrence of the "OMG! YOU MUST HATE COMICS IF YOU DON'T THINK THIS CON WILL BE THE BEST THING EVER!", and having those kind of people defending your con doesn't speak well for it or you. It's a sad state of affairs that I have to point this out, but it is possible to be a comics fan and yet not be messing your pants in anticipation of the con. This is not a dismissal of the work put into the con (see point 7 below). That's the joy of the widely-varied hobby that is comics, you get all sorts.

5) It's disingenuous to refer to Cliodhna's statement about the irish comic scene and drop the "at times"; given that she organised and bankrolled the 24 hour comics day event last year, has organised several comic jams since then, is contributing to an upcoming comic anthology and works in animation, it's not like she's some random naysayer. Aside from being entitled to her opinion by default, she's got enough experience of the industry and comic-dom in general for her comments to carry some weight; and, well, the state of the industry being better than it ever has been doesn't preclude it from being a mess given that it's still a nascent industry that was virtually nonexistent about 5 or 10 years ago. I haven't seen any statement from her claiming explicitly that you don't support the irish comics scene, so again I think it's disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

To be honest your post reads like you're trying quite hard to discredit her for posting comments critical of the con, which if it is the case is pretty sad.

6) Your closing comments about your reachability are a bit of a joke given you've previously pointed out that other people have access to your accounts. Short of asking you personally in the shop (which, for the many of us who don't live within easy reach of Temple Bar, isn't necessarily a timely option), how should she (or anyone else for that matter) know that the answers already given ostensibly in your name aren't from you? And if there is going to be such a discrepancy between answers from you and answers from the rest of your team, maybe it's time to consider a more detailed policy on who responds to online commentary, and in what manner.

That being said, the uniform tone of reaction to critical comment suggests a common source.

7) I want to clarify this because I know it could be misinterpreted, but I'm surprised at the way the management committee have responded to the critical feedback so far. I know that the amount of work involved in setting up a 2-day con is, if anything, going to dwarf the amount of effort involved in last year's con, and it's great that you and your team are enthusiastic about doing it. But that doesn't mean that the current position and responses are the only ones, or even the best ones to give.

I know that negative comments can be draining if they don't have any constructive aspects attached to them, and that focusing on them won't particularly help the con. In saying that, comments from anyone about the con should be taken as exactly that : comments on the internet, with all the importance that implies. I have yet to see anything entirely negative said about the con; most of the comments have been along the lines of "it's a shame there's no x" or "It'd be cool if y was included".

However, there's not a lot that you can do about people saying or thinking of the con in less than glowing terms because, as you say yourself, you can't please everyone. So why spend time on the tireless rebuttal of earlier posts rather than just ignoring the comments, or as had already been done, acknowledging the comments without committing yourself to taking them on board in terms of the con's eventual schedule? I just don't see the point, at least not if it's not going to have any effect on the con itself. That being said, I don't see the point in continuing this thread either because, well, aside from the odd bit of banter it does seem to have boiled down into some sort of playground-level discussion, alternating between semantic analysis of previous posts and laughably reductionist posturing. At this rate I'm just waiting for the inevitable Nazi comparison before I lock the damn thing so that we can all get on with something a bit less pointless.

I want to reiterate that this post is written more as me the comics fan than me the mod, and if any part of the post appears to be insulting then I apologise in advance - my brain's a bit frazzled at this point, having spent ages re-reading and re-writing this, so I'm just going to roll with it. I'm sure that the tone is more reactionary than I'd like, but I think that may be the result of trying to respond to specific points rather than writing a general post from scratch.

In an effort to end on a lighter note and, hopefully, put an end to the drama-tastic discussion that's so far gone on in this thread, I give you the true confessions of Iron Man!

Bruno Batista

Despite what you might think, the management committee welcomes all your input.

J Hendrick

First up Fysh,

Great post, you obviously put a lot of effort in to this reply and I appreciate what you've said here, so please let me reply,

I've been trying to figure out how to word this post for longer than I care to think about as it's mostly a direct response to John's post above, so I figure I'm just gonna run with it as is and point out that this is my opinion as a poster on this forum rather than as mod, except where specifically stated otherwise.

Totally understood man.

1) JohnCon is a nickname for the con that appeared last year and was, as far as I can see widely used. If nothing else it's shorter than Dublin City Comic Con, which is enough justification for its use as far as I'm concerned.

Again, I understand this, but it's something I'm actively trying to distance myself from as odds are I'm going to take more of a backseat role on these events soon enough and it's a question of branding.

2) Having seen the emails involved and talked to Cliodhna about this at some length, the replies I saw to her mails did get increasingly condescending in tone. (Which is backed up by the tone of this post, which effectively says "we know who we're catering to so you can keep your comments to yourself" - or at least thats how I understood it, and I don't think I'm the only one).

Are you referring to the emails here or the post?

As I've read the mails, and no. I can't agree with you here. My staff were professional and courteous in their replies. Her emails were not. At all.

I don't think Cliodhna has ever claimed she is the world's most polite speaker/poster, but given that she pointed out that she was trying not to sound snarky it's a bit disingenuous to claim that none of your replies were in any way condescending but that she was a raging harridan spouting profanity. Personally, I think it was a case of miscommunication and a bit of misunderstanding on both sides which probably wouldn't have happened if it had been a conversation held in person rather than over email, but that's just me.

Again, I don't agree with you here. I've been in business 6 years and if I had ever spoken to someone like that I wouldn't have gotten very far.

She may have said she was trying not to be snarky, but that didn;t actually stop her being snarky. It doesn't matter what she said she was trying not to do, it matters what she said and the actions she then took.

As for the miscommunication, yes, maybe you're right. But that did not warrant the tone in the emails, nor the content.

3) Regarding the schedule : this post says that planning for the event started last year. If that's the case, then you can't complain if there's speculation about the events that might or might not happen - promotion for the event is starting, without the schedule detail being released yet. Speculation is hardly a rarity in comics fandom, but once there's more info available about the schedule the speculation will adapt accordingly.

Yes, planning did start then, but in varying stages. Planning such as prospective guest list, venue options ect. Not scheduling and the specifics. They only come up later on in the planning preocedure.

No speculation is not a rarity, i'm used to it, I've worked for marvel on different retailer schemes and have a very good working relationship with them, I'm a mod on Mark Millar's website. I'm well used to fan speculation and reaction.

This was neither.

In fact, I've got to say that if the small press/alternative comics aspect of the con is going to have a significant scale then I'm surprised it's not being pushed more heavily. The mainstream fans probably already know about the con and whether they're going; the small-press/alternative audience (beyond the creators themselves) is going to be a somewhat different cross-section of the population and is if anything less likely to hear about the con through the conventional channels, so a bit of extra publicity certainly wouldn't hurt. Of course, if it's not going to be significant in terms of the overall con then this isn't a concern. But at the moment only you and the management committee know which is the case, and that's off-putting to people like me who don't particularly care about mainstream superhero comics.

You see, this is where business comes into it.

If I turned around and promoted Cliodhna and Bob Byrne the same way I've been promoting Jim Lee, then I'd literally be wasting space. The fact is, is the 99% of comic fans know who Jim Lee is, and whether you like him or loath him he is the star attraction.

What would be more useful for the small press was if they actually used this oppertunity to get their work out there.

In terms of your points about getting the con out there, to small press and alternative creators. I think you're really not appreciating the network that we've built up over the years. We do have the resources to get this out there and we are, we're not relying on this, or any forum. We're going directly to a lot of sources and still are. I literally have a checklist that's got over 900 things to check off. From the big things to the small, we work on it each week and we get through as much as possible.

As for it being off putting to people like you, I'm sorry to hear that. the fact of the matter is, is that not a whole lot of people read comics, mainstream or otherwise, and while i'm sure your particular webcomic has it's following, much like Bob has his, Rob has his and Adam has his if we were to market this event just towards those fans then we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot.

4) I've said it before, I'll say it again : a lot of the discussion in this thread is people posting in threads online. Posting snidely and snarkily in many cases, but hey, that's comics fandom.

That's not an excuse to be rude Fysh, I wouldn't allow it over on Millarworld and I'm surprised you'd allow it here. whatever about giving out, questioning peoples character and saying things that were said are both rude and inexcusable.

I would never say the things that have been said about my staff about other people, but for some reason it seems to be ok here.

I don't think that someone should be able to say what they want about someone and then the other party not be able to defend themselves.

That said, I'm getting tired of this thread and the recurrence of the "OMG! YOU MUST HATE COMICS IF YOU DON'T THINK THIS CON WILL BE THE BEST THING EVER!", and having those kind of people defending your con doesn't speak well for it or you. It's a sad state of affairs that I have to point this out, but it is possible to be a comics fan and yet not be messing your pants in anticipation of the con. This is not a dismissal of the work put into the con (see point 7 below). That's the joy of the widely-varied hobby that is comics, you get all sorts.

I agree with most of your post, I don't think it speaks ill of me or the con that people are excited. That's normal. But with the guest list that's been announced so far you'll see that there's a wide variety of talent there that have worked on a diverse amount of titles. We have everything from X-Men artists to people that produce vertigo and ibdy titles there, so honestly I don't get the apprehension.

5) It's disingenuous to refer to Cliodhna's statement about the irish comic scene and drop the "at times"; given that she organised and bankrolled the 24 hour comics day event last year, has organised several comic jams since then, is contributing to an upcoming comic anthology and works in animation, it's not like she's some random naysayer. Aside from being entitled to her opinion by default, she's got enough experience of the industry and comic-dom in general for her comments to carry some weight;

See, no mate. Not really. it doesn't. When her books sell 100K. then she has weight. Not now. that's not me, that's the industry. You think Ed Brubaker had weight when Gotham Central was selling 8 or 9 K. No it didn't. What it did was get him noticed and put on high profile books that sold.

In terms of her bank rolling 24 hour comic day, yeah that's to be commended.

24 hour comic day is a completely different event to something where in total we're paying for an entire hotel for 2 days, have flown in 16 guests plus their wives and partners and paid all their expenses.

So no, you'll forgive me if I don't actually consider that to mean anything to me personally or professionally.

and, well, the state of the industry being better than it ever has been doesn't preclude it from being a mess given that it's still a nascent industry that was virtually nonexistent about 5 or 10 years ago. I haven't seen any statement from her claiming explicitly that you don't support the irish comics scene, so again I think it's disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

See, that's funny. Have you seen any statements from me telling her she's not welcome at the con?

See, same thing man.

In terms of you claiming I'm disingenuous. I think that half the argument is already lost, because this is an internet message board, and unless you write like a professional writer than a lot of what you say is lost on people. because you're not there in person, so while you can write a reply like this, the personality does not come across. Which I think is the root of the problem here anyway.

To be honest your post reads like you're trying quite hard to discredit her for posting comments critical of the con, which if it is the case is pretty sad.

No, I'm not. I'm responding to comments and criticisms that were directed towards both me, my convention and my staff. I'm doing it in a clear, fair and balanced manner and I'm maintaining a professional attitude.

That's all.

6) Your closing comments about your reachability are a bit of a joke given you've previously pointed out that other people have access to your accounts. Short of asking you personally in the shop (which, for the many of us who don't live within easy reach of Temple Bar, isn't necessarily a timely option), how should she (or anyone else for that matter) know that the answers already given ostensibly in your name aren't from you? And if there is going to be such a discrepancy between answers from you and answers from the rest of your team, maybe it's time to consider a more detailed policy on who responds to online commentary, and in what manner.

Fair point, but aside from the one post here, all the emails were clearly marked from both Bruno and Dave, who by the way were courteous and professional. Whereas, in one mail. I believe the term, "who wants to see Jim Lee **** off" or something similar was used. So, now I think you're just playing favorites Fysh and your argument is losing ground for me. In terms of me reconsidering who does what, I'll think about it. But my staff and mt team have done nothing but work hard and have tried to maintain full inclusiveness for fans of different genres for the con.

As for you not being close to the store. I have customers and friends all over, hell Cliodhna could have contacted me on Bebo. She's one of my friends there. If she had have phoned the store she could have been ransferred to my mobile in an instant.

She didn't. She was rude, and then she posted here.

I'm now responding to the criticism, so if she can post critical analysis here, I fail to see why i shouldn't be allowed to defend both myself and my product.

That being said, the uniform tone of reaction to critical comment suggests a common source.

I'm sorry Fysh, could you please clarify this statement.

7) I want to clarify this because I know it could be misinterpreted, but I'm surprised at the way the management committee have responded to the critical feedback so far. I know that the amount of work involved in setting up a 2-day con is, if anything, going to dwarf the amount of effort involved in last year's con, and it's great that you and your team are enthusiastic about doing it. But that doesn't mean that the current position and responses are the only ones, or even the best ones to give.

I take it you're referring to the emails?

Because unbeknownst to me you've seen them. Well, I have to say. if you think we were out of line I'm surprised, very, very surprised. Because we weren't. In terms of you questioning our responses that you consider to be condecsending, they're the standard response to pretty much everything in this capacity from every company.

We agreed that the points would be brought up, they were. Unfortunately, the rather good points that were originally in those mails have been over shadowed by both this thread and a few other things online.

And Fysh, in terms of what you say about your post being from more of a comic fan than a mod i totally understand and respect.

As for you wanting to close this, it's your prerogative. but, this forum isn't exactly the busiest, and I think that you closing the thread about the con, on boards would be a bad idea,

It'd be a disservice to the few fans that do stop by here.

i must say it's kind of both funny and disapointing this has happened, I really do want these to continue. i think what people should be aware of is that this is the second but I want there to be many more. And i think that if there are more in years to come and it builds up than yes, there'll be more and more different things to entice, entertain and promote.

As for small press, we will always support it. same with irish comics.

But at least give us a chance to get this up and running and don't assume it's an us against them thing. It's not. And I'm sorry if we offended anyone, but when we're receiving mails like we recieved and then we read threads like this and posts elsewhere it's a kick in the nuts.

Yes, there should always be opinions by the fans and patrons, it's what keeps us on our toes.

But let us respond ourselves if need be, if you don't. All that's going to happen is people read one side of the argument and that's not cool/

ztoical

I've put the important part of this post in bold so people can skip to that the rest is just sleep depreived, massive comic buzz ramblings after a pretty great first day at MoCCA.

In my last response I said I wouldn't comment anymore on this thread - Obviously I did make remarks in my livejournal which have been posted here - I have no issue with this as I am not one of those individuals who is silly enough to mistake my livejournal for a private diary. Seeing as the thread appears to have now become nothing more then an attack on mise me fein I feel its best for all concerned if i put an end to it.

I'm not sure what time it is as my laptop is on irish time and I'm currently in new york but I think its around 3.30am here. I just spent the day at the MoCCA arts festival and I have to get up in a couple of hours to head back for day two. [I mention this to excuse my rambling and bad spelling] Earlier today my friend, who is an editor at DC, I won't drop names as I'm not trying to do a "o look who i know" thing here, came up to my table to talk with me and while he was there a sophomore cartooning student wandered over to trade comics with me and for a couple of minutes the three of us talked about just comics in general. Why I mention this here is because it reminded why the hell I'd just flown 3000 miles, also why I'd up rooted my whole life 5 years ago and moved to new york - i bloody love comics And I love comics festivals where you can have someone who is at the top end of the mainstream publishers, indie artists and eager little fresh faced little students just milling around gushing about how great comics are.

it doesn't matter what level you are at in the "industry" nobody goes into comics because they think it will make them rich - some are lucky and can make a decent enough living off them others end up working other gigs but come home and make their own books in their spare time - people get into comics because they love them. Even as a comic book fan you have to love them because its an expensive hobby to have especially here [or rather there cus im here not there wait that doesn't make sense] in our current rip off ireland mode [cept for the shiz bob I know its free]

I love comics but I do take them seriously, and at times a little to seriously.

So to John and all those working for/with him I offer an apology. I'm a very sorry if I was rude to you, it was certainly not my intention but it seems to have come across that way so my honest and sincere apology.

Fysh I thank you for having my back, you didn't need nor should you have had to stick your neck out and get people annoyed at you to defend my ass. I ask you now as a mod to lock the thread and let someone start a new thread to discus the actual con.

If people still feel some over powering need to comment you can pm here or my email is clearly listed on my website.