IT Grads question: Work & Salary

easyontheeye

nesf wrote:

I find the whole Uni vs IT thing silly tbh.

I agree but i still think some uni grads need to wake up, having a degree from a top uni means nothing these days.
I also dont like the Uni Vs It thing but when your speaking with people who make STUPID statements like this ....


"And if possible avoid IT's and colleges. Big employers seem to look down on them."

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

damnyanks

I'm simply stating what I was told to screen for. Within Ireland the places we were told to accept were

Trinity,
UCD,
Smurfit,
DCU
(I know smurfit is within UCD)

While this is only 1 company the recruitment practice across the industry is pretty standard. I've met plenty of Irish grad's in London but when I think about it none of them are from IT's or colleges.

I'd view the DIT comp sci course stronger then the UCD one with regards to technical exposure and so on. We've been told not to accept them as they arent on the list.

This isnt a Uni vs IT / College thing, I'm simply stating something that will make your life that bit easier when looking for a job. I went to a college and a university - so its really not a case of snobbery.

Stark

damnyanks wrote:

I'm simply stating what I was told to screen for. Within Ireland the places we were told to accept were

Trinity,
UCD,
Smurfit,
DCU
(I know smurfit is within UCD)

UCC wasn't on the list?

damnyanks

Nope, it's not on the targetted list - means the person has to have some reasonble credentials behind them (activities, work exp. and a decent cover letter)

Someone from quanititive finance at smurfit for instance would just about get an interview automatically.

omahaid

jackbhoy wrote:

New grads (s/w engineers, operations/networks etc.) at my employer will be starting on min of 28k, in reality most will start on 31/32k, the best ones will be offered circa 33-35k i'd imagine. I've been there 18 months straight out of college, started on decent wage and have had two 8%+ raises and one promotion which also came with a seperate raise.

Feck, a 1H and all I got was 28k (should have held out for more ). Seriously though, the highest paying grad program I could find (of companies that released such info) was An Post at 30k, I thought I did well with 28k outside Dublin (starting as software engineer btw, did comp sci in UCC).

Timmy_d

dont really know much about the graduate programs but are they good in general and are there alot of companys in ireland running these programs,probably hard to get onto only picking best of the best but the money doesnt seem too bad for starting off....

MrSquishSquash

Didn't mean to start a "Uni versus IT" debate, just curious about peoples experiences when starting out after graduating from their IT related programme!

DJDC

<snip>Trolling remarks</snip>

100% of DJDC posts in this thread are useless, hence why he is now banned.

GoneShootin - a 3 time IoT graduate now earning 30K+ at the tender age of 25. Stick that in your pipe DJDC and smoke it.

Jumpy

Which side of IT are you referring to here OP?
Are you going the Dev path or the Support path?
Dev will get you a higher starting salary but in the long run unless it is programming in niche software support will end up a higher salary, particularly if you branch to UNIX with a bit of Cisco.
Support is a far harder job however as you not only have to deal with your own managers and PM's but the end user as well.
If you branch to support though, be prepared for at least 5 years of gutter leavings. You need to get really good to get the higher earnings.

Nermal

Jumpy wrote:

Support is a far harder job however as you not only have to deal with your own managers and PM's but the end user as well.

one has to live with oneself, after all. developers create.

i've seen people 'move up' in support. they get to watch progress bars instead of being on the end of the phone.

Jumpy

Nermal wrote:

one has to live with oneself, after all. developers create.

i've seen people 'move up' in support. they get to watch progress bars instead of being on the end of the phone.

Mmm Level 2.
Yep, theres still a Level 3 and Consulting that you havent obviously havent seen yet.

cold_filter

damnyanks wrote:

I
I'd view the DIT comp sci course stronger then the UCD one with regards to technical exposure and so on. We've been told not to accept them as they arent on the list.

Iwould agree with this. I did my degree in CS in UCD, i would conider myself a pretty good programmer.
I applied for an internship with ericsson a couple of years back and eventually found out that i didnt get it because UCD's CS course isnt practical enough.

I now work for ericsson....

omahaid

Timmy_d wrote:

dont really know much about the graduate programs but are they good in general and are there alot of companys in ireland running these programs,probably hard to get onto only picking best of the best but the money doesnt seem too bad for starting off....

A large amount of the large companies (not just IT, but banking etc) run grad programs for IT grads. I applied to a number of them, they seem to be looking for min 2:2/2:1 but I imagine (hope) that they plan to keep you and train you, which is a big plus in my mind.

BobTheBeat

Jumpy wrote:

Which side of IT are you referring to here OP?
Are you going the Dev path or the Support path?
Dev will get you a higher starting salary but in the long run unless it is programming in niche software support will end up a higher salary, particularly if you branch to UNIX with a bit of Cisco.
Support is a far harder job however as you not only have to deal with your own managers and PM's but the end user as well.
If you branch to support though, be prepared for at least 5 years of gutter leavings. You need to get really good to get the higher earnings.

I can vouch for that. I have a 2.1 in IT and Telecomunications a CCNA,and after Four years as a Technician, I am about to start a role as a network admin. It is actually insane the broad range of experience employers look for. I have had the chance to work with some seriously skilled people (who are all Russian actually) and learn a hell of alot. But only now would I be considered for a proper admin job. And Im not just talking changing tapes in the autoloader and rebooting pc's.

fguihen

damnyanks wrote:

And if possible avoid IT's and colleges. Big employers seem to look down on them.

I hate hearing rubbish like this. I got the chance to go to UCD, or an IT and I chose the IT,and im glad i did. In my IT, the lecturers were super helpful, went out of their way to help us in any way they could, even giving us extra lessons if we asked, for free. or dept head knew everything about the exams, rules, appeals, what to do if exams went badly etc. compare this with UCD where a friend went where lecturers would just teach you what they had to, wouldnt help much after that, and if you wanted any info on anything to do with exams and what not, the last people to ask was the lecturers as they didnt care. I came out of the IT and had a job in 2 months, which i still am it. It pays quite well and is giving me expirience to go even further. so enough of your hatemongering against IT's. DIT is renound for engineering..look at that.. its an IT, the IT i went to is renound for business and Computing results. Universities exist to exploit rich people out of their cash as they think they are better off than those who go to IT's. whats the difference IMO, well , universities were usually established many years ago, so they are old, their lectures think they are better as they work in a Uni, and are therefore arrogant, less help , less resources. contrasted with the helpful and exceptionally knowledgable folk in the IT's ( my one anyway) and there is no choice. its IT all the way.

now, with that out of my system, on to helping you get a job.
Take time to do your cv. a few weeks even. make sure you detail all your relivant expirience. dont dwell on leaving cert results. make it as clear as possible. give a little paragraph describing yourself and what you are accomplished in, before giving actual bullet points and descriptions of expirience. dont rely on only bullet points, flesh it out so they know plenty about you before you go to the interview. a good cv is 75% of the way to getting a job, after that , be prepared. know your cv inside out so you can answer any questions on it, and elabourate on details to build yourself up as much as possible, without lying! dont lie. you will be caught out in the end! The industry is an employee's market at present. I graduated in 2002, and within a few months i had a decent job with great pay for someone with zero expirience! i will soon have 2 years and the money will just get better. !

nesf

fguihen wrote:

Universities exist to exploit rich people out of their cash as they think they are better off than those who go to IT's. whats the difference IMO, well , universities were usually established many years ago, so they are old, their lectures think they are better as they work in a Uni, and are therefore arrogant, less help , less resources. contrasted with the helpful and exceptionally knowledgable folk in the IT's ( my one anyway) and there is no choice. its IT all the way.

Eh, no.

damnyanks

fguihen wrote:

I hate hearing rubbish like this. I got the chance to go to UCD, or an IT and I chose the IT,and im glad i did. In my IT, the lecturers were super helpful, went out of their way to help us in any way they could, even giving us extra lessons if we asked, for free. or dept head knew everything about the exams, rules, appeals, what to do if exams went badly etc. compare this with UCD where a friend went where lecturers would just teach you what they had to, wouldnt help much after that, and if you wanted any info on anything to do with exams and what not, the last people to ask was the lecturers as they didnt care. I came out of the IT and had a job in 2 months, which i still am it. It pays quite well and is giving me expirience to go even further. so enough of your hatemongering against IT's. DIT is renound for engineering..look at that.. its an IT, the IT i went to is renound for business and Computing results. Universities exist to exploit rich people out of their cash as they think they are better off than those who go to IT's. whats the difference IMO, well , universities were usually established many years ago, so they are old, their lectures think they are better as they work in a Uni, and are therefore arrogant, less help , less resources. contrasted with the helpful and exceptionally knowledgable folk in the IT's ( my one anyway) and there is no choice. its IT all the way.

now, with that out of my system, on to helping you get a job.
Take time to do your cv. a few weeks even. make sure you detail all your relivant expirience. dont dwell on leaving cert results. make it as clear as possible. give a little paragraph describing yourself and what you are accomplished in, before giving actual bullet points and descriptions of expirience. dont rely on only bullet points, flesh it out so they know plenty about you before you go to the interview. a good cv is 75% of the way to getting a job, after that , be prepared. know your cv inside out so you can answer any questions on it, and elabourate on details to build yourself up as much as possible, without lying! dont lie. you will be caught out in the end! The industry is an employee's market at present. I graduated in 2002, and within a few months i had a decent job with great pay for someone with zero expirience! i will soon have 2 years and the money will just get better. !

Sorry bud you're not giving good advice there. If someone is looking into a career before they start third level then they should ideally be aiming for a university or an place that is renowned for being excellent in that specific field. Your leaving cert results in most cases dont matter. Mine sucked and it never held me back.

Graduates coming from a university have advantages over IT / College students in the following respect

More companies will look to recruit directly from universities. More of them will goto campuses and give presentations to lure grads.

The average assumed ability of a university student is usually higher then the assumed ability of an IT / college student. Don't go mental over this point it's very general (i.e you need a higher leaving cert to get into a university in most cases)

Then there is the varied reputational factors to consider. Universities get their name out within industry through their research efforts. The place where I went has a great name within space robotics meaning if I wanted to get into that area I'd have a strong brand behind my name.

Ultimitley it is down to your own initiative and ability. Where I went to study or how I studied was never a concern to me. Then I started working and saw what it really meant in terms of recruitment and politics. This is typically limited to large companies as small companies only care if you're capable.

As far as teaching standards and so forth thats a totally different kettle of fish and something I'd consider irrelevant with regards to getting a job as its down to yourself to get the work done, we've all had **** and great teachers through out our education.

Beta2

damnyanks wrote:

And if possible avoid IT's and colleges. Big employers seem to look down on them.

I work for one of the biggest software houses in the country, in fact i think we're the biggest employer of software grads in the country. I often sit around the interview table and time and time again students coming from an IT come out on top, they are just better candidates, the uni students typically have text book answers but can't seem to solve a logical problem, or have little or no practical experience.

out of all the grads that apply to work for us about 75% are uni students, 25% IT students, but the actual mix employed is closer to 50 - 50. So infact within our company IT grads typically have a better chance of being hired.

I personally don't care where the degree was awarded from, its all down to the individual candidate. but to say that you should avoid IT's is completely wrong.

My advice would be to pick a course that you find interesting, then the learning will be more enjoyable and easier.

Don't accept a job you don't like, its very hard to work your way up from tech support, the amount of talent i've seen extinguished in these soul destroying jobs is unbelievable. If you can't get the job you want straight out of college go back and do a masters and then you'll find it easier to get a development job. a masters on the cv is superior to 2 years tech support.

Timmy_d

Beta2 wrote:

I work for one of the biggest software houses in the country, in fact i think we're the biggest employer of software grads in the country. I often sit around the interview table and time and time again students coming from an IT come out on top, they are just better candidates, the uni students typically have text book answers but can't seem to solve a logical problem, or have little or no practical experience.

out of all the grads that apply to work for us about 75% are uni students, 25% IT students, but the actual mix employed is closer to 50 - 50. So infact within our company IT grads typically have a better chance of being hired.

I personally don't care where the degree was awarded from, its all down to the individual candidate. but to say that you should avoid IT's is completely wrong.

My advice would be to pick a course that you find interesting, then the learning will be more enjoyable and easier.

Don't accept a job you don't like, its very hard to work your way up from tech support, the amount of talent i've seen extinguished in these soul destroying jobs is unbelievable. If you can't get the job you want straight out of college go back and do a masters and then you'll find it easier to get a development job. a masters on the cv is superior to 2 years tech support.

Finally someone is making sense and the kind of stuff you want to hear

strychnine

DJDC wrote:

99% of IoT graduates read The Sun, have low levels of grammatical and mathematical ability and have an IQ lower than Jade Goody. This can be explained by the low leaving cert points of the entrants who gain places on these courses. The differential in average points between top unis and IoT's is enormous, often in the region of 200 points. A mention of the word 'university' around such people tends to result in bitterness and anger, due to connotations of failure and rejection they associate with the word.

You obviously know nothing about the CAO system. If you did then you would know that points levels are driven by demand not difficulty. If a course is at 300 points it does not mean it is half as hard as a 600 point course, it means that the 600 point course had twice the number of applications made to it.

As for the guy who said that big companies look down on ITs, this is simply not the case in reality. Im in the Comp Sci course in DIT. At the moment we have 6 guys on work placement in Google. Last year we had a guy on the IBM extreme blue programme and another one of my colleagues is starting it around now. There are also two graduates from last year now working there permanently. We also have work placement students in Microsoft, eBay and AIB capital markets. Hardly small to medium size companies.

The idea that big companies look down on ITs is an absolute myth that is totally debunked by employment statistics.

damnyanks

Employment statistics in Ireland you mean.
Being in a University is an attribute which will usually be an advantage when at the screening process. If you are applying for a highly competitive job being from a non rated / poorly rated institute makes life extremely difficult, especially if you look outside of Ireland.

At no point did I ever state people in IT's are incapable of getting a decent job or incapable of doing a job.

nesf

Beta2 wrote:

out of all the grads that apply to work for us about 75% are uni students, 25% IT students, but the actual mix employed is closer to 50 - 50. So infact within our company IT grads typically have a better chance of being hired.

That isn't strictly true. Rephrase it as the IT guys who could get past your screening processes are more likely to get a job. What a lot of this comes down to, and I've seen this with friends of mine both from Universities and ITs, is that if you are good then where you did your third level stuff won’t hold you back, however; for the “middle of the class” more doors open for you if you hold a university qualification but this doesn’t mean you’ll actually get a job. Going to an IT doesn’t close these doors for you, it just means in the majority of cases that you have to go get work experience elsewhere first, and this is not something that is a bad thing and it’s generally speaking a lot better to have a qualification and X years work experience than just a qualification in most fields generally.

What Beta2 is probably seeing is that a guy who did a 2 year cert and then did 2 years work experience is better on a practical level than a guy coming fresh out of a 4 year degree course even though they might be the same age etc. That and the disparity between a focus on theory and a focus on practical experience that seems to describe the difference between most IT and Uni courses.