MNSCI (& other) club fees?

Kramer

I didn't want to hijack the other thread but was shocked to learn of MNSCI's "new member fee" of €550 :eek: .

Last I heard it was €400 for new members & €250 p/a thereafter. That seemed fair enough.
Now, it would seem, it's €550 for new members & €265 thereafter.
So how come the annual fee increased by just 6% while the new member fee has increased by 37.5%?

Can anyone explain why it's now so expensive for new members? Surely they should keep the "joining" fee lower to encourage membership.............or am I waaaay off the mark:D ? What does a new member get above an existing member? Heaps of administration involved? Comprehensive safety training provided?
It looks more like a deterrent to me, maybe they now have enough members?

I haven't joined as, given it's a 4+ hour return journey & limited opening, I'd be lucky to get there once a month. €400/12 was €33 per visit + €35 approx. for fuel.
At €550, I'd be spending the bones of €80 per session (+ ammo) :eek: .

I know they are doing a 1000yrd range but why make new members pay sooooooo much more? Do they not realise (or care) just how far some people have to travel to get to their range? Obviously, locals get great value for their fees but those unable to get there regularly just won't bother, especially at €550!

CG, any news on your range yet?

Thankfully, there are plenty of ranges available locally which are totally free........................sometimes, even the odd rabbit or fox too .

It just pisses me off having put so much time/effort into fighting the license fee increase(s), especially the training licence, that one of the biggest clubs should now hammer new membership.
Not good for the sport IMO.

[End rant]

Vegeta

tell me about it, I handed it over last week.

When I think that for that money I would be a third of the way to a Nightforce scope or nearly bought Vinnwiew's leupold. Would have gone a bloody foreign holiday and had change left over. Its mad money alright

jaycee

I consider it fair value for money when I think what it might cost to join a decent Gym , and if you compare it to the cost of joining a Golf club , it's peanuts .

Theres a lot of work to be done on the range , and a heck of a lot has been done over the last few years. Existing members have paid for the facilitys as they stand at present. New members are benefiting from the work and financial contributions of the existing members .

The place isn't in receipt of public funds so anything that has been done or needs to be done must be paid for. The backstops , buildings , firing points and clubhouse didn't appear by magic, but by hard work and dedication.

I manage to shoot there about once a week , sometimes more often , but lets say 52 times a year , as an existing member that's 265 divided by 52 which nets out at about a fiver . I don't count the fuel or the ammo cause that really isn't connected to the membership fee , just a fact of life.
In any event , my ammunition costs are far higher than my membership cost.

It's unfortunate that you would incur such high travel costs and that the distance involved limits you to just 12 visits a year. I can see your point that it doesn't make economic sense in your case.If you really feel that strongly about the cost of joining , perhaps you shouldn't.

freddieot

Midlands is not perfect (someone still has to open a club that is perfect) and the membership costs are high. However, you do get what you pay for in this case. I've shot there for years and seen it grow and the rifle facilities are easily the best civilian setup in the country. Work on the new pistol range and facilities is still ongoing but already is one of the best and when finished will be the best.

It is still the only place on this island where as a member you can go to shoot your pistol, shotgun and rifle (50m to 600yds) , all in the same day and without really waiting about for another discipline to finish.

When backstops need repair or to be raised, when targets need replacing, when facilities need updating and improving like the new clubhouse - money is spent and the guys put in a great deal of hard work.

I also have to drive a fair distance but that's the luck of the draw. I've heard lots of talk over the years about new clubs opening up nearer to me promising everything from state of the art pistol ranges to 1,000+ rifle facilities. I'm still waiting for it actually to happen, but eventually I will accept that more good clubs will open up. I wonder how much they will cost if they are to be run to the same high standards ? Let's wait and see. Midlands have recently spent thousands just improving the pistol range backstop and progressing the new pistol clubhouse. I'm happy my membership fee this year will be spent wisely in order to ensure that I can continue to use the facilities.

Like I said Midlands is not perfect in every respect but in particular for shooters with different types of forearms and disciplines, as a total range solution, it is good value.

bullets

Yeah I was shocked when Vegeta told me what he had to pay
for the first time. I am currently waiting on a letter from midlands
to let me know when to give em the top-up to renew my membership.

I paid 470-480 initial fees at the start of this year.
as a once off fee I was initially shocked but was happy to pay it as a once off. I was stunned that the facilities were so good and wondered how they could manage to pay for the place.

I still have not got a membership card as the dude that made them messed up
and midlands ended up getting their own equipment in.

In fairness the range/setup is non-profit and all moneys go towards developing/maintaining the place. and It has one of the best set-ups in the Country. Satillite TV/Pool Table/Kitchen-ish type section/beer tap/Library???/can buy ammo and rests/patches/solvents/rangefinders at the range/plenty of distances to choose from and the availability to hire club equipment. From a safety end of things I can say that the backstops are
higher and thicker than anything I have ever seen on a military Irish range
so thats a big plus in my books.

I only get there maybe twice a month with a lad from work giving me
a lift whenever he is going up. After finding out Vegeta works in the same
company as myself and himself being good enough to give me a lift from
time to time it means I get to go there a in a nice balanced way
where it wont P*ss the girlfriend off if I am away too much.

If your into Range shooting in a big way I reckon the price hikes while maybe
not pleasent would be acceptable. If your into things other than paper punching or clays then it may be bit expensive JUST to be a member.

~B

bunny shooter

I am a member of midland for about four years now.

I've paid about plus or minus €800 over that period.......

I have seen the place improve and change ........ generally for the better.

I have 2 x pistols.....if i wasn't a member there i wouldn't have gotten the licences

New members membership is high but it is the way below the cost of most golf clubs....

And you won't get into many 'good' golf clubs for €550 !!!!!! even after the first year.

A lot of people including people i know only join to get a pistol licence and/or fullbore rifle licence/s ............. and they never go to the range .........I say hike up the new membership x 3 times to deter this carry on.


don't usually rant but come on........................

bullets

bunny shooter wrote:

A lot of people including people i know only join to get a pistol licence

One of the reasons pointed out to me as to who they wish to let
into the club....... All too often someone wants to join a range
ONLY to allow them to get a licennce for a Pistol.

From talkiing to the lads on the range they say its a big problem.
Peeps joining just to get a "handgun" when questions are asked about
the reasons for joining and wanting a handgun a lot of the answers are scarey
such and a non-Irish person joining thinking they can licence for pistol for personal protection or to sleep with one under the pillow. All it takes is for one nut-job
to make it to the press/media to give us all and the local club a bad name.

~B

rrpc

bunny shooter wrote:

New members membership is high but it is the way below the cost of most golf clubs....

And you won't get into many 'good' golf clubs for €550 !!!!!! even after the first year.

A lot of people including people i know only join to get a pistol licence and/or fullbore rifle licence/s ............. and they never go to the range .........I say hike up the new membership x 3 times to deter this carry on.

Oh, there will be other things that will catch up with such members, though I understand that part of the hike is to discourage this kind of thing.

The 2006 firearms act has stipulated that lapsed members be reported to the Gardai by the clubs concerned, so that licences can be revoked. Authorisations are now requiring that member attendances be available for inspection by the Gardai.

That will put a stop to chequebook pistol licences.

As for the cost of joining, it's a bit unfair calling the entire €550 a joining fee, in fact it's a joining fee plus first annual sub. This is normal in all clubs, and is supposed to reflect the kind of money that founding members put into the establishment of the club out of their own pockets.

Remember that the money goes directly into the facilities that you enjoy, and in improvements. Any club that doesn't spend money this way, isn't going to last very long.

How many other things that you pay for provide the same kind of value, or transparency as to where it is going?

bunny shooter

rrpc,

all very well to be in the legislation...........

But it has been there all along.............

on the cert renewal...........declaration of membership etc...........

local gun club have notified gardai of lapsed members for years.........they still get their licences!!!!!!!!!

550 - 265 = 285 of a "joining fee"..........cheap at twice the cost

rrpc

bunny shooter wrote:

rrpc,

all very well to be in the legislation...........

But it has been there all along.............

on the cert renewal...........declaration of membership etc...........

local gun club have notified gardai of lapsed members for years.........they still get their licences!!!!!!!!!

550 - 265 = 285 of a "joining fee"..........cheap at twice the cost

But there was no law to actually back up that stipulation. It's only now that there is a requirement to be a member of a target shooting club to get a pistol licence that has changed this.

You can bet your last euro that the Gardai will be calling at peoples doors if they get such letters in the future.

And I agree, for a club of Midlands standards you get very good value for your fee. Most clubs charge the same, and I know quite a few that are much more expensive and some of them are closed to new members at the moment.

People have to bear in mind that club authorisations set membership limits on clubs, so it may well be the case that Midlands are getting close to theirs and have cranked up the fee accordingly.

bunny shooter

must admit haven't been to any other civy ranges. fermoy is supposed to be good but only for .22 ?

bullets

bunny shooter wrote:

must admit haven't been to any other civy ranges. fermoy is supposed to be good but only for .22 ?

Yeah Fermoy when I enquired last would only allow .22 and subsonic.
Dunno what their rules are with regards to Pistol.

~B

jaycee

People have to bear in mind that club authorisations set membership limits on clubs, so it may well be the case that Midlands are getting close to theirs and have cranked up the fee accordingly.

Absolutely true with regard to the membership limits imposed in the club authorisation . I don't know if this is a factor in the fee increase , but costs are rising everywhere and I suspect that insurance and safety related costs are increasing too.

Someone mentioned the fact that there are some places where rifle shooting may be carried out for free , and while this is true to some extent if one has the permission to shoot on someones land (You still need insurance which is included in the membership fee) If you want to take part in target shooting in a club , I don't know of any club with free membership .

Free club membership is also highly unlikely as under current legislation a registered club is liable for a 1000 euro fee . Add to that the costs involved in getting the safety standards in place to merit a range authorisation.

If you got 50 people together , count the cost of leasing land , building backstops , building firing points, paying for materials and hiring heavy equipment and operators to put it in place .... It would be far far cheaper for them each to pay a membership of €5000... yes five thousand euros to a club and just enjoy the facilities on offer ...

If you enjoy your sport and are committed to it and have an appreciation of the work done with you membership dues .. then €265 looks very small.
Anyone who cannot contemplate such a small level of personal investment , (and that is surely a better phrase.... "personal investment")....., in their sport really should seek another hobby.

Kramer

jaycee wrote:

If you enjoy your sport and are committed to it and have an appreciation of the work done with you membership dues .. then €265 looks very small.

100% agree. I have no problem with the annual fee & €265 is indeed very reasonable for the facilities available at MNSCI. €285 I'd have no problem. €300, I'd have no problem.

jaycee wrote:

Anyone who cannot contemplate such a small level of personal investment , (and that is surely a better phrase.... "personal investment")....., in their sport really should seek another hobby.

Obviously a personal dig but leaving that aside :

My question was why such a big increase in the "joining fee"? Two reasons have been given: (a) to prevent those joining just for licence purposes, especially pistol licences & (b) because (possibly), they are nearing their member quota.

(a) solution is easy enough.
(b) not so easy. Compulsary redundancy of existing members?

Does anyone actually see my point? Increasing the initial joining fee is going to deter new membership. If that's the intention, then fair enough. I'm not referring to those airheads solely after pistols but young interested individuals. EVERY sport needs an injection of youth to keep it going & indeed progress it, shooting more than any other IMO. Dublin is reasonably well served with clubs/universities for young shooters but the rest of the country isn't so lucky.

What's also interesting is those justifying the fees are already members & not subject to the new member increase. Some, also, are local to the club & get to visit with great regularity . Typical enough in Ireland though: "I'm alright Jack" & all that .

Someone mentioned that the initial fee also includes the first year's membership. Well, that was also the case when it was €400. Actually, doing the maths, the joining fee has increased to €285 from €150, or 90% :eek: .

I dunno, maybe it's just me but I think large increases in joining fees aren't the way to go to facilitate the entrance of young blood into a sport that needs it.

On a side note, I've realised that if I wait long enough, I can actually shoot two rabbits with just one bullet, thereby saving 30c. Just wait till they line up "nose to tail". It can take a while (up to four hours from experience) but a penny saved is a penny earned & all that. Look after the pennies & the pounds will look after themselves lads .

jaycee

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
Anyone who cannot contemplate such a small level of personal investment , (and that is surely a better phrase.... "personal investment")....., in their sport really should seek another hobby.

Obviously a personal dig but leaving that aside :

Just to clarify... :

That wasn't a personal dig at anyone , just an opinion, but I am puzzled because you seem to feel so strongly about the increases yet have no intention of joining .

The figures you presented re your personal costings are based on last years membership fee and sub. This year they are predictably increased so it's even more of a financial obstacle , so presumably if they were too high last year , then this year is out of the question . That being the case I don't see the point of further discussion as it obviously won't effect you anyway.

The irony is , that if you had joined last year ... you would be looking at a fee of a mere €265 ..this year.

My question was why such a big increase in the "joining fee"? Two reasons have been given: (a) to prevent those joining just for licence purposes, especially pistol licences & (b) because (possibly), they are nearing their member quota.

Actually there have been more than two reasons given... in addition to the ones quoted above ..people have pointed out the following...

a: Rising costs generally ..a fact of life
b: Insurance and safety upgrades .
c: New work that has been carried out on the range
d: Planned improvements
e: New fees that have been imposed by the finance act.
f: Increases in the "Sub" that reflect the additional facilities on offer.

On the subject of introducing young shooters and training them , once they are of legal age to do so .. for a small fee they can come and learn to shoot under supervision with one of the club .22 rifles . They don't need to be members to do that or even own a gun.
The only restriction is that they can't shoot full bore rifles without membership , but then , if they are just starting out they usually wouldn't have one. They do have the opportunity to learn from more experienced members about the different types of shooting and what the requirements are. I think thats a fair start into the sport of shooting..


None of the above is intended as a personal "Dig" merely answers to questions and should be taken as such .. It is unfortunate if you feel that you can't justify or afford the fees .. but then again there are many things in life that I would like to do ... world cruises , powerboat racing .... etc .. I just can't afford them , such is life.

Clare gunner

There is one other thing no one has considerd here ...monopoly and profit!

Lets face it.Midlands is the ONLY range[yet] for most of us west of the Shannon and the Limerick ,Clare,Nth Tipp reigons,that is more or less within a three hour ,200 mile round trip for a decent range or club that allows you to use your pistol,or big calibre stuff.
Hate to say it ,but that is a monoply situation!!And it is a situation that midland could use to their advantage.Not insuniating that they do ,but looking at this a from a busisness perspective,and surely also a club must be run as such to make a profit as well.It is a situation MANY busisness people would give their left eyes for.
So,whats to stop them upping the annual fees up to 900 quid next year,1200,the year after? Absolutely Nothing! Havent shown up on the range for a year..ah you must be a potential nutter...so we are telling the Gaurds on you! Unless you fork up again another membership of 900 Euros,or whatever.
[That alone would turn me off joining].
Checkbook liscenses how are ya!
Folks,please understand..I have no grudge with midland,and wish them well.But I feel I have to point out the possible lack of clothing on the emperor here.
This is only going to change as more ranges get opened.But there is the rub,where,when ,by whom??? It is a Catch 22 situation.

Bullets
BTW our foreign guests wouldnt need to join clubs to aquire firearms here.It is easier and cheaper for them to aquire somthing in their home countries and bring it back here in a car if they so needed it.It is only us poor mugs that are doing this the ligit way that are being told to bend over:mad: From the Govt,Gardai and possibly our own.
Kramer
Workin on it.I have to get that guy out with all his junk in a diplomatic fashion,otherwise he can claim traders rights etc.Once I have that barn empty...we start the paperwork pretty soon as well.

bunny shooter

jaycee,

bravo !

bunny shooter

Another bonus of membership is ........ 90% of the lads, and there are mostly lads there, not being sexist, all the women I know who shoot are better shots than me and most men too, are genuine, decent guys. I have seen new shooters come to the range. If they look for help and/or advice it is freely given in a non condescending fashion (we were all there once !!!!), nothing is too much trouble, there is never a bad time, lads will give up their shooting time to help others etc. Whether explaining/demonstrating something, advice, etc. If someone want to see if a rifle, scope, ammo etc. suits them and/or their combo, you are given a couple of shots or given a few rounds etc. COMRADARIE IS THERE TOO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And that is lacking in most sports/places in this materialistic world nowadays !!!!!!!!!!!!! What price can you put on this ? I have made some great friends there and I know that if I need help someone there will know the answer ! I have had lads help me with problems stripping parts on rifles e.g. firing pins etc. I have helped and been helped ! Very few (and only the stupid) are too proud to ask for help and fewer there are too selfish to give it !!!!!!

Vegeta

Hey don't get me wrong i love the facilities but whatever way you look at it 550 euro is not chump change. To some this can be justified, to others it cannot.

The only fault I have with the place is that I don't live closer or there isn't a similar set-up in Clare/Limerick. Hardly their fault now is it

I do side with Kramer on this though. I am a young stupid professional (who lives with my parents might i add) spending lots of money on my hobby. Lord knows if i was a student or had a mortage and young family that sort of price would be out of the question on my current salary.

bunny shooter

vegeta,


c'est la vie !

Vegeta

if I win the euro millions lads i'll build a super range and you are all honorary members

newby.204

thanks veg

bunny shooter

Vegeta wrote:

if I win the euro millions lads i'll build a super range and you are all honorary members

we will hold you to that !:D

bunny shooter

'Newby .204' where did name come from ?

rrpc

Kramer wrote:

Someone mentioned that the initial fee also includes the first year's membership. Well, that was also the case when it was €400. Actually, doing the maths, the joining fee has increased to €285 from €150, or 90% :eek: .

Presumably the membership fee was also lower when the €400 was being asked. So you are attributing the entire hike to the joining fee.

rrpc

Clare gunner wrote:

There is one other thing no one has considerd here ...monopoly and profit!

Lets face it.Midlands is the ONLY range[yet] for most of us west of the Shannon and the Limerick ,Clare,Nth Tipp reigons,that is more or less within a three hour ,200 mile round trip for a decent range or club that allows you to use your pistol,or big calibre stuff.
Hate to say it ,but that is a monoply situation!! And it is a situation that midland could use to their advantage.....So,whats to stop them upping the annual fees up to 900 quid next year,1200,the year after?...

Thats a stupid proposition because no-one would join if the price went that high, and the club would close. Or someone would get off their ass and actually open another range if there was that kind of money to be made.

And it's not a monopoly because there are many other ranges in the country and most of them charge about the same amount.

Bottom line. If you had 50 members, you'd be earning just €13250 at €265 annual sub. Joining fees are once off, so you would have a windfall of about fourteen grand in the first year.

So with €27000 in your pocket, how good a range do you think you could build?

Clare Gunner wrote:

Not insuniating that they do ,but looking at this a from a busisness perspective,and surely also a club must be run as such to make a profit as well.It is a situation MANY busisness people would give their left eyes for.

Clubs only make profits in order to invest in their facilities.

Clare Gunner wrote:

Havent shown up on the range for a year..ah you must be a potential nutter...so we are telling the Gaurds on you! Unless you fork up again another membership of 900 Euros,or whatever.

That's irresponsible talk CG. If someone joins a club for the sole purposes of getting a licence, then they should be turfed out immediately. There should be no equivocation here, it's not about nutters, it's about us being in control of our sport and making sure that the 100% accident free record is kept.

And it's the law!

Clare Gunner wrote:

This is only going to change as more ranges get opened.But there is the rub,where,when ,by whom??? It is a Catch 22 situation.

It's not a Catch 22, anyone can start a club, there's nothing stopping them but inertia.

bullets

Someone mentioned in passing that the range in Mallow was over 400 Euro
to Join and whoever was running the place was looking for that EVERY YEAR.
Anyone know if thats all lies and bull or is there any truth in the matter.

Was at Midlands today with Vegeta and another workmate.
Veg seems happy out with .223 at 300m although it was
difficult to see where the shots landed at that range and also
the heat mirage was severe.

I mounted and zerored my new Leupold VXIII 6.5-20 Long Range
lovely bit of kit but did not improve my accuracy as I shot pure
Poo today. It was a joy to look through though.

Keep seeing two guys that shoot 22LR with the Olympic style
kit. Jackets and stuff. Wondering if they are board members as one lad
keeps looking at me as if he knows me but I dont know him!
If ye know who ye are next time we must make introductions

Heard today Midlands is expanding their Club house.
Also there are plans for a Club full bore rifle! Yummy!
and a Military display in Sept sometime.

~B

rrpc

bullets wrote:

Keep seeing two guys that shoot 22LR with the Olympic style
kit. Jackets and stuff. Wondering if they are board members as one lad
keeps looking at me as if he knows me but I dont know him!
If ye know who ye are next time we must make introductions
~B

We'll be all down there on the 23rd/24th for the National Championships, so you can introduce yourself then. I don't know who the lads were, but I'm sure all will be revealed

I'll be the one running around connecting computers and cables and generally looking harrassed

jaycee

Originally Posted by Clare Gunner
Havent shown up on the range for a year..ah you must be a potential nutter...so we are telling the Gaurds on you! Unless you fork up again another membership of 900 Euros,or whatever

Sounds like a scheme with a great potential for a form of blackmail doesn't it ..?
Except that if you examine the facts it falls apart.

a: It would be far more logical for a club trying to do that , to be happy to just take the members money and hope to never see them. To suggest that they would be reported for non attendance kinda contradicts that.

b: A club will in fact be required to keep records of attendance which can and will be inspected at any time. It will be the Gardaí who be keeping tabs and come calling on those seeking to use club membership as a flag of convenience

c: I don't have a problem with that system if it keeps the nutters in check.

Clare gunner

[

QUOTE=rrpc]Thats a stupid proposition because no-one would join if the price went that high, and the club would close. Or someone would get off their ass and actually open another range if there was that kind of money to be made.

Reallly???? Whats the choice around the areas that I have mentioned??It's an either /or situation.And it is pretty facetious to say that anyone can open a club.You know as well as I do it is only possible with specific areas,mindsets,blessings of the Gardai ,planning permission as well.

And it's not a monopoly because there are many other ranges in the country and most of them charge about the same amount.

Yes in the Dublin/East coast area.Kerry is full and Mallow I dunno what they are charging.You are still stuck INMHO opinion with a hobinsons choice.
And I am saying it is a monopoly,I am saying it is a potential local monopoly

So with €27000 in your pocket, how good a range do you think you could build?

Excluding purchasing /leasing the property /buildings,and you are talking about with being able to set somthing up.Ok not a beautiful grand set up ,but somthing that will get shooting going.

Clubs only make profits in order to invest in their facilities

.
Sorry. I'll take THAT with a very large pinch of salt,if you dont mind. It's coming to a point that people are expecting to get paid for their time these days,and lets not forget the costs of insurance is starting to override most everything we do nowadays.Call me cynical,but I dont belive much more in Human altuism

That's irresponsible talk CG. If someone joins a club for the sole purposes of getting a licence, then they should be turfed out immediately. There should be no equivocation here, it's not about nutters, it's about us being in control of our sport and making sure that the 100% accident free record is kept

.

No it is realistic.There is NO SUCH THING AS A 100% saftey record in anything mankind does.Be it shooting or nuke power plants.
So we are now making a dictatorial decision that if you dont show up every week,month,two months,six months ,year .You are now up to somthing no good??? Sorry, but I just cant accept that there isnt somwhere the usual Irish slant on things of somone somwhere trying to make a quick buck on the backs of his fellow irish men


May I remind everyone Mr Hamilton was a model club member,before he went off to Dunblane primary school.If you think that just everyone showing up is gong to sort the illegal firearms issue,you are mistaken. It is now easier for nutters/criminals to aquire illegal firearms than going the legal route.

And it's the law!

As of when and where??Please quote the revelant act of current law that says you must be a club member.??

It's not a Catch 22, anyone can start a club, there's nothing stopping them but inertia.

See my above reply

Jaycee
a] it could be done like the "late " car tax renewal.You get a letter from your tax office saying that if you dont renew the car tax within 14 days .We inform the Gaurds.One of my cars hasnt had tax for 6 months now,and the Gaurds still havent been down to see me.
There is alot of "law"out there it is for the Gardai to enforce it.if they have the time or inclination anymore.Unless somthing drastic occurs ,they wont be too intrested in checking range attendance books.How many timesare ammo dealer records checked?The Gaurds themselves admit it would be nice if politicos and the GP would consult them first about wether all this extra paperwork /tasking is chucked on them,and wether it is feasible to do.

b] What does this exactly prove???I go down to the club,fire ten rounds,drink a coke,BS with people for an hour ,go home.Repeat procedure,every month,week,whatever.
Gardai come down,see ah yeah CG has been in the club every stipulated time,grand so.Law obeyed,everyone happy.
Now if I am a chequebook liscense holder,you have me obeying the "law" and still nothing changes.
Now unless we are going to be totally anal about things and lay down EXACTLY what a member MUST do ven He atteds der range.How many rounds shot ,etc etc.Then you will be discouraging people from the shooting sports community and your club.We go shooting to chill out,not to be orderd around,or to achive a certain pre required goal.

jaycee

Jaycee
a] it could be done like the "late " car tax renewal.You get a letter from your tax office saying that if you dont renew the car tax within 14 days .We inform the Gaurds.One of my cars hasnt had tax for 6 months now,and the Gaurds still havent been down to see me.

Quite possibly .. but then again if you are driving it on the public road , you have to be "Lucky" every time to avoid detection , the Gardaí only need to be lucky once and since it's over 2 months without tax they have the power to confiscate it on the spot ... that theory also depends on the club being a party to helping one to avoid detection and using that power to force members to both attend and extort money from them.

I don't believe a reputable club would do that or put themselves and their reputation at risk by doing so . If you are suggesting that they would thats a pretty serious accusation .

There is alot of "law"out there it is for the Gardai to enforce it.if they have the time or inclination anymore.Unless somthing drastic occurs ,they wont be too intrested in checking range attendance books.How many timesare ammo dealer records checked?The Gaurds themselves admit it would be nice if politicos and the GP would consult them first about wether all this extra paperwork /tasking is chucked on them,and wether it is feasible to do.

b] What does this exactly prove???I go down to the club,fire ten rounds,drink a coke,BS with people for an hour ,go home.Repeat procedure,every month,week,whatever.
Gardai come down,see ah yeah CG has been in the club every stipulated time,grand so.Law obeyed,everyone happy.
Now if I am a chequebook liscense holder,you have me obeying the "law" and still nothing changes.

I agree that no system is without it's loopholes and cracks , but we didn't write the law , were just trying to operate within it and the new position of "range inspector" will have very few authorised ranges to police and you can bet they will be checking up on stuff.

Now unless we are going to be totally anal about things and lay down EXACTLY what a member MUST do ven He atteds der range.How many rounds shot ,etc etc.Then you will be discouraging people from the shooting sports community and your club.We go shooting to chill out,not to be orderd around,or to achive a certain pre required goal.

I don't think it's quite that bad , or ever will be.
CG , I respect your opinion as someone I would consider to be a "Safe " shooter , and I have no wish for unnecessary restrictions on our enjoyment of our sport anymore than you have. But you seem to think that these are rules imposed and dreamed up by the MNSCI ...they aren't.

May I remind everyone Mr Hamilton was a model club member,before he went off to Dunblane primary school

.

I cringe at the mention of that person and reluctantly refer to him in a discussion relating to our sport , but it is fair to point out that he had been reported to the Police for "Strange and threatening behavior" and nobody acted on it. The system broke down and we as sportsmen and women , not just in the MNSCI , but in shooting everywhere need to take whatever steps we can to have checks and balances in the system and work with the Gardaí
to ensure safety for all.

If you think that just everyone showing up is gong to sort the illegal firearms issue,you are mistaken. It is now easier for nutters/criminals to aquire illegal firearms than going the legal route.

I never set out to solve the illegal firearms issue , that's a matter for the Gardaí . I am only concerned with legally licensed shooters.
I don't think either the club rules or the law are beyond improvement and welcome suggestions from anyone , member or not , as to how systems and security can be improved .

For the moment , I think that if you meet a guy on the range fairly regularly and get to know him and talk to him , watch how he behaves , it gives you a far better chance of spotting a potential problem than a situation where "chequebook member" ..never turns up and nobody knows anything.
Isn't that at the heart of the idea of encouraging a minimum level of attendance ....?

If anyone has fresh ideas on how to ensure that everyone who ever gets a licence is 100% suitable above and beyond the checks that we trust the Gardaí are doing ... Let's hear them..