MNSCI (& other) club fees?

rrpc

Clare gunner wrote:

Reallly???? Whats the choice around the areas that I have mentioned??It's an either /or situation.And it is pretty facetious to say that anyone can open a club.You know as well as I do it is only possible with specific areas,mindsets,blessings of the Gardai ,planning permission as well.

All things that others have managed to do, and are still managing to do. But hey throw up your hands and say it's impossible if you like.

Clare Gunner wrote:

Yes in the Dublin/East coast area.Kerry is full and Mallow I dunno what they are charging.

And Fermoy.

Clare Gunner wrote:

Excluding purchasing /leasing the property /buildings,and you are talking about with being able to set somthing up.Ok not a beautiful grand set up ,but somthing that will get shooting going.

Now you're contradicting yourself.

Clare Gunner wrote:

Sorry. I'll take THAT with a very large pinch of salt,if you dont mind. It's coming to a point that people are expecting to get paid for their time these days,and lets not forget the costs of insurance is starting to override most everything we do nowadays.Call me cynical,but I dont belive much more in Human altuism

Believe what you want CG, I don't know any club that doesn't plough all it's income back into the sport. At the very least, anything else would require that taxes be paid and all the red tape that goes with a commercial venture.

Clare Gunner wrote:

No it is realistic.There is NO SUCH THING AS A 100% saftey record in anything mankind does.Be it shooting or nuke power plants.

Can't speak for power plants, but the safety record in target shooting is 100% since 1840.

Clare Gunner wrote:

So we are now making a dictatorial decision that if you dont show up every week,month,two months,six months ,year .You are now up to somthing no good??? Sorry, but I just cant accept that there isnt somwhere the usual Irish slant on things of somone somwhere trying to make a quick buck on the backs of his fellow irish men

As of when and where??Please quote the revelant act of current law that says you must be a club member.??

Firearms Act 2006 (7) Any person who holds a firearm certificate and who is found to no longer fulfil the conditions under section 4 (1)(d) or section 4(3) above shall be guilty of an offence.

Section 4 (1)
(d) has provided secure accommodation for the firearm concerned at the
address where it is to be kept, and
(e) where the firearm is to be used for target shooting, is a member of an
authorised rifle and pistol club."

You don't show up, you're guilty of an offence. It's nothing to do with 'making a quick buck'.

And furthermore:

Any member of An Garda Síochána authorised in that behalf by the
Commissioner, or a person designated in that behalf by the Commissioner, may on producing his authority if required to do so - enter any premises occupied or used by a rifle or pistol club or rifle and pistol shooting range; and inspect the premises and anything on them, for the purpose of ascertaining whether the conditions of any authorisation granted under subsection (2) are being complied with.

Clare gunner

that theory also depends on the club being a party to helping one to avoid detection and using that power to force members to both attend and extort money from them.

And what sort of a better situation could you ask for?You MUST attend[what you do while attending is irrevelant to us],and you MU&ST pay us as there is no other club within 200 miles for you to fulfil your lawful obligations.
sounds good to me:rolleyes:

I don't believe a reputable club would do that or put themselves and their reputation at risk by doing so . If you are suggesting that they would thats a pretty serious accusation .

I'm suggesting it is a possibility.And reputability means nothing if somone wants to make profit.

I agree that no system is without it's loopholes and cracks , but we didn't write the law , were just trying to operate within it and the new position of "range inspector" will have very few authorised ranges to police and you can bet they will be checking up on stuff.

Again another "law" without any means of backing it up ..yet.:rolleyes:
Until this is actually enforced or enforceable,it is just so much air.And again lets face it ,it is the same as the office of smoke inspector.They all went around the pubs,all complying with no smoking bans.After the strangers are gone,out come the water glasses filled with water for the known locals,and those that do light up.After closing time!!What I am saying is;just because a law exists,it doesnt mean that everyone is obeying it in the letter and spirt,we make a pretence that it is obeyed in everyday life and continue as before,because we know that it is stupid,unenforceable,etc etc.

But you seem to think that these are rules imposed and dreamed up by the MNSCI ...they aren't.

I dont, and I am not accusing MNSCI of anything.I am stating that if there is a single club in a large catchment area that it is unecnomical for a shooter to travel over 200 miles to go somwhere else,if they could get into the other clubs that is.And you have to fulfil these conditions of ownership,and a club knows this,you are pretty much at that clubs mercy wouldnt you say???
That is called a monopoly situation.

.

I cringe at the mention of that person and reluctantly refer to him in a discussion relating to our sport , but it is fair to point out that he had been reported to the Police for "Strange and threatening behavior" and nobody acted on it. The system broke down and we as sportsmen and women , not just in the MNSCI , but in shooting everywhere need to take whatever steps we can to have checks and balances in the system and work with the Gardaí
to ensure safety for all.

You said a mouthful there.And I agrre with you 100%.BUT what happens if those that are higher up fail to act???It is totally irrevelant then what checks and balances are in place as then we get scape goated collectively.Did many police officers resign after Dunblane and say they screwed up??One I think?

For the moment , I think that if you meet a guy on the range fairly regularly and get to know him and talk to him , watch how he behaves , it gives you a far better chance of spotting a potential problem than a situation where "chequebook member" ..never turns up and nobody knows anything.
Isn't that at the heart of the idea of encouraging a minimum level of attendance ....?

Do you REALLY get to know anyone in this life that well,until you are up close and personal with them?Street angel and house divil saying springs to mind.
You can have the nicest face on in the club,be the greatest salt of the earth,and be a compleate B%%%%rd back home in private. It happens.

If anyone has fresh ideas on how to ensure that everyone who ever gets a licence is 100% suitable above and beyond the checks that we trust the Gardaí are doing ... Let's hear them..

you cant grauntee a 100% in anything.But to belive that if somone shows up regularly at a range,and does all the prescribed niceities,that you will spot a problem on legs,well maybe if you have a trained psycologist as a member of the club, fine.The system is fine enough as it is,adding on more silly IMO restrictions wont improve it at all.

Clare gunner

[

QUOTE=rrpc]All things that others have managed to do, and are still managing to do. But hey throw up your hands and say it's impossible if you like.

Well RRPC if you can speed this up for me within 6/12 months ,[if this is what you are implying] .I'm hiring you!.If you think that this can be done really easy and quick this whole discussion will be academic as there will be a range near enough in every 3rd parish.:rolleyes:

How am I contradicting myself??

Believe what you want CG, I don't know any club that doesn't plough all it's income back into the sport.

I could name you three of them,I was involved in [not shooting] that were there to make money,and to Hell with members.:(

At the very least, anything else would require that taxes be paid and all the red tape that goes with a commercial venture.

Which is somthing I would rather see,a commerical range,run on busisness lines as a busisness.It is then in the busisness intrest to attract customers,and therefore you will see better if not exellent facilities.

Can't speak for power plants, but the safety record in target shooting is 100% since 1840.

I was talking about shooting in general,not picking a specific branch.

You don't show up, you're guilty of an offence. It's nothing to do with 'making a quick buck'.

And I would like to see a Super making a case stick on it.It is so generalised that it is useless. It says NOTHING about attendance!!! It says membership of a authorised rifle and pistol club. Nothing about for how many days per year,month or whatever.Or what you must do when you show up or anything,or wether you must even shoot!! You could walk in once a week,month whatever, sign in have a cup of coffee,walk out.Condition in the laws eyes fulfilled.End of story!!

And???
He can inspect away.You fullfilled your side of the contract by being a member of the club!Wether you availed of the clubs facilities is as that law is written is irrevelant!

This brings me back to the point that you wont get rid of the chequebook member.This is a common situation all over Europe as well.Germans have it all the time,everyone did their 6mth probie time,did the course for their sport liscense,is a club member,pays their dues every year,not seen from one end of the year to the next.Can they do anything about it ??No!Only difference is;the German police dont worry or want to be seen prying into individuals lives as to how many times somone went shooting.As far as the laws is concerned you fulfilled the requirements to own firearms,all else is your beer.
Granted,being part of a club is our requirement...But our law does not specify what you must do further,or how many times you must attend or what not.Anything that a club does further like saying a minimum attendance is required is illegal and leaving them open to a lawsuit from a member,or reporting that person to the Gardai for non attendance is outside the club remit.


This is where the attendance thing looks stupid,and to my eyes as a money spinner for the club,combined as a big stick.You dont attend regularly,are a bit reserved,dont want to progress further in grades etc.All things where a club can make more bobs from the members./Therefore the club can brand you undesireable and get more money out of you by saying "Do this,attend more...or we will sic the Gardai on you"

Look,I am not saying that this is the way things are or will be or whatever.But all I am pointing out is that such a situation could develop,and realistically we are NOT going to have a huge amount of ranges in Ireland where we are all going to be able to pick and chose where we go,with a realistic travel distance.Knowing human nature,and the chance to make money from their brethern ,especially here,I wouldnt belive it wont or cant happen.Or that because somone doesnt fit the normal pattern of the other club charlies that an innocent is branded and deprived of their liscense,because of jumping to conclusions by the mis informed.

rrpc

Clare gunner wrote:

How am I contradicting myself??

By saying on the one hand..

And it is pretty facetious to say that anyone can open a club.You know as well as I do it is only possible with specific areas,mindsets,blessings of the Gardai ,planning permission as well.

And on the other

Excluding purchasing /leasing the property /buildings,and you are talking about with being able to set somthing up.Ok not a beautiful grand set up ,but somthing that will get shooting going.

I could name you three of them,I was involved in [not shooting] that were there to make money,and to Hell with members.

Not shooting.......

Which is somthing I would rather see,a commerical range,run on busisness lines as a busisness.It is then in the busisness intrest to attract customers,and therefore you will see better if not exellent facilities.

And something I'd prefer not to see. Because the end result is a complete dictatorship with everyone kow-towing to one individual, and having to take their way or the highway. A club is democratic, everyone can have their say.

Another contradiction by the way, because if the original point of this thread was a complaint about MNSCI's fees, and it's accepted that everything goes back into it's facilities, then a business venture's primary motive would be to make money first and worry about facilities second. Accepted by the way that a certain minimum standard would be required to make it a going concern, but there's no incentive to add facilities if the cost/benefit didn't work out.

If MNSCI was a profit making organisation, then there would be no full-bore range because of the cost involved for a very small population of shooters.

Clare Gunner wrote:

I was talking about shooting in general,not picking a specific branch.

And in general the accident record for shooting is well down on any other sport that's run in this country. (Bar tiddly-winks).

Clare Gunner wrote:

And I would like to see a Super making a case stick on it.It is so generalised that it is useless. It says NOTHING about attendance!!! It says membership of a authorised rifle and pistol club.

And have you read the authorisations?
They require that all attendance records be available for the Gardai to inspect. They also require that the membership list be sent to them annually. Do you really think that they are going to just file them in a drawer without checking them?

Clare Gunner wrote:

And???
He can inspect away.You fullfilled your side of the contract by being a member of the club!Wether you availed of the clubs facilities is as that law is written is irrevelant!

It's not irrelevant. If you acquired the licence for a firearm by virtue of being a member of a target shooting club, and for the purposes of target-shooting, and haven't used it for that purpose, then you no longer have fulfilled the requiremnets for your licence. End of.

Clare Gunner wrote:

]Granted,being part of a club is our requirement...But our law does not specify what you must do further,or how many times you must attend or what not.Anything that a club does further like saying a minimum attendance is required is illegal

How is it illegal for a club to specify minimum attendance? Point me to the law that says that.

Clare Gunner wrote:

This is where the attendance thing looks stupid,and to my eyes as a money spinner for the club,combined as a big stick.You dont attend regularly,are a bit reserved,dont want to progress further in grades etc.All things where a club can make more bobs from the members.

And what's wrong with that? You really have it in for clubs CG, because I can't see what's wrong with a club trying to make money in order to improve it's facilities. A club is run for the members benefit, if all the members pull together to get facilities, and then see people signing up and not putting their shoulder to the wheel to improve things, well no club wants members like that.

Whats the point of them joining?

It appears CG, that you have a bee in your bonnet about clubs. You seem to think that a commercial range is a good thing because it makes money and a club is a bad thing because it might want to make money.

Square that circle for me.

Clare gunner

rrpc wrote:

By saying on the one hand.. And on the other

How is that a contradiction ??You are saying it is a piece of p%%s to open a club.Then you give us a figure of 27K to work with.I said BAR buying the property.27 K would get somthing pretty well basic ly set up.Of course if you are expecting steam rooms,leather chesterfield seats , cocktail bar etc.That is somthing different. Do you want to shoot in the dry on concerete with automatic returning target holders.With a pretty basic club house??Or squelch thru the mud,downing your pistol every five mins losing your concentration to retrive your paper,and have a lovely comfy clubhouse??

And something I'd prefer not to see. Because the end result is a complete dictatorship with everyone kow-towing to one individual, and having to take their way or the highway. A club is democratic, everyone can have their say.

Well I would..For the very simple reason that while clubs might seem democratic .You are forgetting the cabals,cliques and general human BS that is added into the matter. Plus there is a thing called majority say.
Plus I would bet you that if somone is running it as a busisness their intrest will be to get more people into using their facilities than playing at politics.Hey I want to shoot,when I want to ,not have to travel a stupid distance,and go home again,not get into club politics and camerderie and intrigues , etc. Been there done it,not impressed.Hence my reason for "having a bee in my bonnet" about clubs.

Another contradiction by the way, because if the original point of this thread was a complaint about MNSCI's fees, and it's accepted that everything goes back into it's facilities

,

And if thats a contradiction...???I am pointing out that MNSCI is in the uniuque position of having the possibility of running a monoply on a quite large area of Ireland.As would any club in the same situation,now or in the future.That is speculation.

then a business venture's primary motive would be to make money first and worry about facilities second. Accepted by the way that a certain minimum standard would be required to make it a going concern, but there's no incentive to add facilities if the cost/benefit didn't work out.

Errr NO! if you are running a busisness[at least in the rest of the world] you want people in your door to use your facilities and to not re invest money into your busisness is fool hardy and sure of a quick death.Why would you want to screw your customer,when he could go off and join a club somwhere else.You want them back,again again,and again.So you have to offer somthing better than your competition.IE better facilities,cheaper prices,the burrocratic BS kept to a minimum,near a pouplation centre,open most nights,etc etc.

If MNSCI was a profit making organisation, then there would be no full-bore range because of the cost involved for a very small population of shooters.

Didnt say they were,but the way the fees get hiked it would give a prospective newcomer the feeling that they were .

And in general the accident record for shooting is well down on any other sport that's run in this country. (Bar tiddly-winks).

Oh now its shooting in general???Last time it was target shooting! Agreed we do have a safe record overall .But you cant have a 100% saftey record in anything to do with human fallability.

And have you read the authorisations?
They require that all attendance records be available for the Gardai to inspect. They also require that the membership list be sent to them annually. Do you really think that they are going to just file them in a drawer without checking them?

Fine!And?? CG was six times of 12 months in the club.OK give him his liscense!
The law says he must be a member of a pistol club,he is a current member.Nothing else.
Hate to say it but yes,thats exactly what they will do on a check.Called lack of police manpower.They have to tick boxes as well.All yours correctly ticked...Fine...Next.

It's not irrelevant. If you acquired the licence for a firearm by virtue of being a member of a target shooting club, and for the purposes of target-shooting, and haven't used it for that purpose, then you no longer have fulfilled the requiremnets for your licence. End of.

Point out to me where the law says you must do anything other than be a member??The law says you must be a member.Nothing about training,useage,how often you must attend,how many shots you must fire,etc etc.?You come on the range once a week,month, whatever,fire 5 shots,go home.You still fulfill your lawful obligations.THE END.

How is it illegal for a club to specify minimum attendance? Point me to the law that says that.

Fact is you wont have many members or very happy ones either ,if you are forcing them to show up and are pushing them to do extra courses,etc.Nothing illegal about it,but not a very happy enviroment or very conclusive to enjoyment either methinks.

And what's wrong with that? You really have it in for clubs CG, because I can't see what's wrong with a club trying to make money in order to improve it's facilities. A club is run for the members benefit, if all the members pull together to get facilities, and then see people signing up and not putting their shoulder to the wheel to improve things, well no club wants members like that.

Whats the point of them joining?

You are immediately ASSuming that anyone who joins and isnt immediately in the get along gang is up to somthing shifty!!What is it to the club?You got their money.There ARE people out there who dont LIKE being involved in the social aspect of clubs. They might just want to shoot,fish,or fly and be left alone.Their only way out of this is joining an expensive club because it is the only one in their area,where they have no choice but to pay up and obey the rules.
If they leave,and it was an unfriendly parting.What is there to stop some sod on the comittie from screwing them with the Gardai.And dont say it doesnt or wont happen.
The unfortunate thing here is everything is geared towards ranges being operated by clubs.
There are some of us who would rather have ranges where you can go shooting,and not have to aquire a new circle of friends to do so.
Fine,I still have to be in a "club"so the Gardai can keep us all nicely piegon holed,but damn if I am going to be up there every week or whatever to be in a situation where I feel I am not enjoying myself and am subetly being pressurised to get more involved or being judged?You will find anyone doing then the bare minimum of membership.Or you will have the other type saying.Well I PAID ALOT for somone to do that.Why should I put my spare time into building,or helping out?? Cant have your cake and eat it as well.

bullets

Out of interest re:safety record since 1840
is that nobody died or nobody got injured? And what happened
in 1840 that was a recorded? or is it target shooting
only officially started then.

Dont want to get in between the argument on this thread (too much)
as I am seeing valid points on both sides of the fence.

I am presuming CG is an existing member of a club someplaces
or else they would not have given him the licence for the glock.
So as a person with having his own land and licence holder for a pistol and rifle and shotgun and.....I could go on. Enough to say he is a seasoned shooter.
It does not make practical sense for him to need or Have to travel a great distance to shoot and pay huge amounts of cash when he can simply go out on his own land and shoot without endagering or bothering anyone else.
After meeting CG he has been around guns his whole life and where
he lives would make an excellent range So it would be madness for him
to have to travel for hours.

From his point of view legally he can fire his own guns on his own land.
So he may not even have an interest in being in a rifle/pistol/gun club.
If he needs to be a member of a gunclub in order to fire his pistol it means
he has to pay 4-500 Euro initial fees and then fees every year after
for facilities that he does not need in order to safely fire his pistol.

For the likes of myself living in an estate with about 200 Houses that
are semi-detached I cant go out my back garden. I am quite happy to
pay the fees to have excellent facilities and meet other shooters that
I can chat to and hopefully learn a few things from. The Initial fee
is a BIG shock to the system especially for younger shooters
maybe still in school/college or people that are just getting into
the property ladder after buying their own home. It was very
off putting for me at first but the urge to shoot was stonger
and it was only a once off payment.

With regards to Midlands the yearly rate for existing members in only
going up by 15 Euros for the year. (At lead that what I was told Sunday)

With the amount of times I have gone out and bought something
stupid or something I did not need and stuck it on the credit card
far outways a meesly fee that is under 300 Euros. After all
you can use the facilities for Free all year round as often as you like.

Bearing in Mind they are expanding the club house (dunno why as its fine)
they are getting all new Clay stuff in (I heard a trench with 15 Traps! Olympic style) and also if they do get that Club F-Class Rifle it means it will give
people like myself that would not have the cash for another few years the
chance to play with kit and decide is the price worth it.

With Midlands I often wondered where the heck all the money was
coming from to have such great facilities. Even the road
which is a back road to the range is perfectly surfaced!!! They must
have friends in the counsil as its better than a main road!
The Land itself is on a long lease? and there is loads of it
They must have someone working in Bord na Móna to get that
kind of deal. I even hear one of the members built his house
next to or near the range theres dedication for ya!!

~B

Clare gunner

I am presuming CG is an existing member of a club someplaces
or else they would not have given him the licence for the glock

.

I do practical pistol.

[

So as a person with having his own land and licence holder for a pistol and rifle and shotgun and.....I could go on. Enough to say he is a seasoned shooter.
]It does not make practical sense for him to need or Have to travel a great distance to shoot and pay huge amounts of cash when he can simply go out on his own land and shoot without endagering or bothering anyone else.
After meeting CG he has been around guns his whole life and where
he lives would make an excellent range So it would be madness for him
to have to travel for hours.

Ever hear the expression the law is an Ass? It doesnt take that into consideration. Yet I am sure there other folks like me that have perfectly safe areas to shoot in as well.Why do you think I am looking seriously into getting this set up?:D I have no problems with folks joining clubs,if that is your thing or only option.It just isnt mine and quite a few other people I know.

From his point of view legally he can fire his own guns on his own land.

Well,according to the new laws to be enacted, that will be a very naughty thing to do,so I must be piegon holed,stamped,categorised,analyised,numberd and join a club like a good little sheep!:mad:
So maybe it is better to be the shepard and own the fold??

For the likes of myself living in an estate with about 200 Houses that
are semi-detached I cant go out my back garden. I am quite happy to
pay the fees to have excellent facilities and meet other shooters that
I can chat to and hopefully learn a few things from. The Initial fee
is a BIG shock to the system especially for younger shooters
maybe still in school/college or people that are just getting into
the property ladder after buying their own home. It was very
off putting for me at first but the urge to shoot was stonger
and it was only a once off payment.

And I feel very much for the majority of you shooters that are not in my very privilidged situation.It is just that I would hate to see somone or body taking advantage of anyone further by having a situation where they are running a club for making extra money out of folk that have no other choice. I am just too cynical and world weary to belive that everyone is doing somthing for the benefit of others without trying to make money somwhere.

With the amount of times I have gone out and bought something
stupid or something I did not need and stuck it on the credit card
far outways a meesly fee that is under 300 Euros. After all
you can use the facilities for Free all year round as often as you like.

Ah you young whipper snappers!!When I was a lad I had to make every penney count,thats old money to you,etc etc.:D True ,but when you throw in your fuel for your car,200 odd miles,etc,even cadging lifts and paying somones gas.It will still add up.300 Euros is a lotta.17 ammo.

bullets

One of the days CG, the temptation to open your own privite or semi-privite
range is gonna take over!!!!!

And myself, Kramer and Vegeta will be there to encourage you to do so at any chance we get!!!!. If only a few of us were well off and
could help chip in with a cold hard cash injection it could be fun.

~B

newby.204

bunny shooter wrote:

'Newby .204' where did name come from ?

i was new to the forum and i was going to start off with .204 as a caliber, now im not new and i dont have .204 but thems are the breaks!!!

bunny shooter

newby.204 wrote:

i was new to the forum and i was going to start off with .204 as a caliber, now im not new and i dont have .204 but thems are the breaks!!!

like your logic.

newby.204

bunny shooter wrote:

like your logic.

Dunno whether your slagging or complimenting but meh ill take it as a compliment im just tooooo lazy to change it and everyone knows me now anyway so!!

bullets

Yeah did not know if that was a slagging or not.
Since you have been posting I have to admire your sig though

~B

bunny shooter

newby.204 wrote:

Dunno whether your slagging or complimenting but meh ill take it as a compliment im just tooooo lazy to change it and everyone knows me now anyway so!!

compliment !

bunny shooter

bullets wrote:

Since you have been posting I have to admire your sig though

compliment for ???????

bullets

bunny shooter wrote:

compliment for ???????

That nice sweet little image on your .sig file that has your username
across it.

~B

bunny shooter

bullets wrote:

That nice sweet little image on your .sig file that has your username
across it.

~B

You have me now, new to this please explain ?

bullets

bunny shooter wrote:

You have me now, new to this please explain ?

your signature file! ie every time you post you have a couple of lines
after the last piece you type which displays
a bit of text or a link or an image.

In your case after everytime you post an image of a round
appears along with your username.


~B

bunny shooter

bullets wrote:

your signature file! ie every time you post you have a couple of lines
after the last piece you type which displays
a bit of text or a link or an image.

In your case after everytime you post an image of a round
appears along with your username.


~B

i don't see it ! didn't do it, i think

Sparks

bullets wrote:

Out of interest re:safety record since 1840
is that nobody died or nobody got injured?

Both, for target shooting, so far as we've been able to determine.

And what happened
in 1840 that was a recorded? or is it target shooting
only officially started then.

The earliest record I could find of a target shooting match in Ireland took place in 1841 in front square in Trinity College Dublin. Shot using muskets, standing, at something like 50 yards. I must get my original notes and scan them in some day, the number of similarities between the record (a letter written about the match by the winner to a friend of his in england) and the kind of postmortem we give matches today is downright funny, right down to plotting group patterns. First prize, by the way, was a musket, so in today's money, you'd be talking about somewhere between 1000 and 2500 euro depending on your take on how closely a musket in 1841 resembles a modern match rifle

jaycee

He's referring to the picture of the bullet under "Newby 204's" posts ..
The little gold one with Newby 204 written on it.

This....:



Where the "Sig" ..he's talking about is and abbreviation of the word "Signature" and is the little comment that appears at the end of each of his posts.

This ....:

my friends think its weird that i say i go shooting "bunny rabbits"

newby.204

bunny shooter wrote:

compliment !

Thanks bunny and bullets i thought that lil sig would add a personal touch to my posts!!