Three witches burned alive in Africa.

neuro-praxis

Bambi wrote:

So you're saying africans didnt burn witches until the colonists came along and forced them too? thats what it sound like to me

Um, no, that is not what I was saying. I was arguing that Africa is in the economic state it is in because of colonising nations.

Dyr

So whats that got to do with burning witches then?

We get to feel morally superior to ugandans because we dont burn people that we suspect of witchcraft. Coloniallism doesnt really come into it.

neuro-praxis

Bambi wrote:

We get to feel morally superior to ugandans because we dont burn people that we suspect of witchcraft.

You're right: no acts of unthinkable barbarism have ever been committed, incited or permitted by us in the West. Good job.

Wibbs

neuro-praxis wrote:

You seem to be implying that the Europeans brought a civility that has since dissipated.

Which would be safer for the general citizenry. Rhodesia of yesterday or Zimbabwe of today?

The actual truth is that colonising nations defilesthem and what Africa is coping with is the aftermath of generations of defilement.

Yes but it's not always that clearcut. Many nations have gained in the long term from the influence of colonisation by other nations. Many nations in Europe would be good examples. The Romans, The Muslims while colonising forces changed many places for the better. Spain for example would be a very different nation but for the moors. Most would agree that Moorish Spain was a bastion of learning, law, culture and human rights when held against the rest of Europe at the time. Guess what? They were colonisers. Maybe them not being white makes it easier to stomach for some. And we can't forget what did the Romans ever do for us.....:D

The reason Africa is in the state it is is largely because of Europe.

Really? Europe has only been involved in large scale interaction with the African continent for less than 300 years. The place was only mapped in the last 150(if that). What about before? The Arabic slave trade was operating in the continent long before the plantations of America. Oh yes and it was those pesky Europeans who outlawed slavery long before the Arabs or the Africans themselves. How do you think a slave trade evolved in the first place? The Africans had a culture of slavery long before big bad ol whitey hoved into view. That's just slavery. Now did Europe screw Africa over? Of course, but laying it all at the feet of Europe without laying some of the blame on others and indeed the Africans themselves is frankly naive.

And not just in the abstract/in the historical. We currently rape them of all of their resources.

Yes and how do we accomplish that. How do your rape anything that won't let you? How do we rape such resources like oil and coal and diamonds etc? We just take them? Eh no. Many Africans are just as complicit.

And let's not forget their shocking, life-crippling debt.

Look many debts were dropped in Africa before. What happened? They ran up more debt.

And you're not talking to a cultural moral relativist here. I strongly feel that such behaviour as stoning etc. is completely unacceptable under all circumstances.

Agreed.

However we have to take responsibility for the state that Africa is in.

Not all of it. Not by a long shot. Indeed doing so would rob the dignity of some of these people by taking all this responsibilty on only our heads.

We are very fúcking rich and they are very, very poor indeed. Coincidence?

Too simplistic by half.

Two children died of hunger while you were reading this.

I hear snapping of fingers. :rolleyes: Blaming everyone but certain cultural issues in Africa is going to get us nowhere. How long ago was live aid? 20yrs ago? Look at how much of that money and food got píssed away by corruption and "operating costs" in Africa. What was learned in all that time? The only way we're going to help is if we attack the causes directly without pussyfooting around. You can be damn sure Mugabe's supporters kids aren't dying every couple of seconds.

Dyr

We dont burn witches in the "the west" if thats what you mean, but you might want to avoid that point, its all sharp and pointy.

_CreeD_

No, but we do blow people up for the sake of a flag, a line on a map or the simple fact that somewhere down the line our ancestors sang a different anthem. Granted so do most countries, but we're in no position to feel holier than thou.
I lived and worked in Angola for nearly four years, some of the nicest people you could ever meet living in what only vaguely resembled a country as we know it. Death was so much a part of their daily lives that they had an entirely different attitude to it, escalation from beatings to something fatal was not such a big jump. There are many reasons, some their own fault, some the environment and many down to the manipulation by other countries to maintain a steady flow of cheap resources. For example the country had been in civil war for decades with the east/west switching support from side to side regularly depending on the flow of territory at the time, morality had nothing to do with it. The camp I was in had been created by an American oil company but at one time was defended by Cuban troops when the govt. declared itself to be Marxist (not even communist) and was rumored to be ripe for an american attack, at one point they arrested 6 South African special forces guys outside the perimeter who had been planning an attack on the oil storage tanks...Nuts... Complicity was mentioned earlier and that is exactly right, obviously many Africans are complicit in the rape of their countries but we are the other half of that equation. It is in the interest of developed nations to keep those with greater resources disorganised, and as those that benefit we do have at least some hand in everything that happens 'over there'. I'm not saying it's just the evil 'west', not at all, everyone makes their choices and those people chose to murder innocents to vent their fear, plain and simple, we're just not in a position to feel so superior.

Zillah

Wibbs wrote:

Evolution/survival of the fittest etc can be applied to other systems, not just genetics. In any event it's the transmission of the genetic material rather than the genetics. You can apply evolutionary theory to the survival and growth of ideas and culture(memes).

Yes yes but you must be very careful to make it clear that you're using two entirely seperate schools of thought, one for genes and one for memes. Conflating the two, even by intellectual laziness, results in the birth of very illfounded racism.

And when someone simply says "evolution" the vastly prefered reading is that of Darwins biological evolution.

"How dare you say their culture is lesser. You racist!!".

A culture that burns "witches" in an inferior culture to my own. Morally, in this instance. Obviously there is no objective basis on which to make this value judgement, I'm deriving this from humanist principles.

That kind of thing. Only if you misunderstand the concept and think it's only applicable to biological systems. More to the point, if you misunderstand the idea of evolution always making something subjectively more advanced.

Neither of this is applicable. I'm well aware of meme theory, but simply stating "evolution" does not naturally lead to a discussion on the war of words.