15,239 sixth and subsequent provisional licence holders on the roads.

DonJose

It seems that second car on the road these days has an L plate. I was shocked to see that 15,239 of these drivers are on their sixth and subsequent provisional licence. The data shows 2,918 drivers are currently permitted to drive on our roads with their seventh licence, 262 on their eighth and six on their ninth.

I thought they closed the loophole which allowed drivers to apply for a test, not sit it, and still renew their licence.

"THE number of unqualified drivers on our roads is soaring, shock new figures show.

Thousands of these motorists are on their sixth, seventh, eighth or even ninth provisional licence.

For the first time, figures can reveal that the number of drivers on their sixth and subsequent provisional licence has jumped from just 88 in 2003 to an incredible 15,239 last year.

When those on their third, fourth and fifth provisional licence are added, the figures rise to 101,000.

The surge in the number of unqualified drivers comes despite government promises to cut the number on provisional licences.

Opposition TDs and traffic experts warned last night that the drivers - who are under no obligation to even go for a single driving lesson - are putting the lives of other drivers at risk.

Previously, the Department of Transport had refused to give a breakdown of exactly how many drivers were on their sixth and subsequent licence, saying the numbers were not quantified.

However, figures obtained by the Irish Independent under the Freedom of Information Act show the numbers renewing their provisional licence six or more times has jumped 173-fold in just three years.

The increase occurred during a period when Transport Minister Martin Cullen gave more than €10m to tackle the problem and promised to properly train more drivers to help cut road deaths.

Opposition TDs criticised the system which effectively lets an individual drive for their entire life without their skills being checked.

The official statistics reveal that in 2006 there were 19,744 people on their fifth provisional licence and a further 12,053 on their sixth. The data shows 2,918 drivers are currently permitted to drive on our roads with their seventh licence, 262 on their eighth and six on their ninth.

In 2003, there were just 4,879 on their fifth provisional licence, 79 on their sixth and nine on their seventh.

A loophole in the system means those with a provisional driving licence only need apply to do their test in order to renew their licence, but they do not need to sit it.

The figures also show the numbers passing their driving test each year has remained largely static since 1998.

That year, 81,864 passed with figures peaking in 2001 at 95,569. Last year, the numbers passing dropped back to 86,898 despite a €10m 'war chest' being given to tackle the waiting time problem.

Conor Faughnan of AA Roadwatch said provisional drivers were typically at higher risk of crashing, something which was reflected in their insurance premiums.

He also criticised the "completely unenforceable" system which stipulates learner drivers must avoid motorways and only drive with a fully licensed passenger.

"Essentially in reality the gardai have given up on the old regime," he said, adding that even the dedicated Traffic Corps cannot be expected to monitor the 20pc of all drivers who hold only a provisional licence.

A spokesman for the Road Safety Authority admitted there was no data to tell how many of the drivers did not turn up for a test - or how many failed the test multiple times.

Test

"To apply for a second provisional licence you have to have sat the test or applied. But beyond that there is no way of knowing if it was a fail or a no-show," said spokesman Brian Farrell.

Labour's environment spokesman Eamon Gilmore claimed that unqualified drivers were putting other motorists at risk.

"We have people who are on continuous provisional licences driving around and these people need to be trained by qualified instructors," he said.

Fine Gael's environment spokesman Fergus O'Dowd said he was "shocked" at the figures, and added: "I would never have thought they were as high as that. A person can either drive or they can't, if they go over and beyond a certain number of licences there's obviously something wrong."

A new system has been proposed which will scrap the provisional licence system and replace it with a graduated learner permit.

This will involve mandatory driving lessons from accredited instructors, a zero alcohol limit and a one-litre car engine limit.

Learners will then have to 'earn' their licence by moving through a variety of steps with stringent restrictions and conditions on their learner permit.

It is hoped the new rigorous system will come into force when the current backlog is cleared.

"It's up to the new minister whenever they take up their new post," said Mr Farrell."
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/alarm-over-surge-in-number-of-ldrivers-695600.html

jhegarty

DonJose wrote:

when the current backlog is cleared.

Thats going to happen real soon :rolleyes:

gucci

im 23 and will be on my 4th provisional license at end of august, iv only been driving a car on roads for the last year as i couldnt afford car/insurance before, and needed a license for driving agricultural machinery before, i have failed my one attempt at driving test few months back for hitting kerb when reversing around the corner, only got one other mark on my test, yeah it sucks but what can ya do. iv applied for my retest and am confident for the next one.

not everyone is hugging the provisonal license system afraid or refusing to do the tests as the media are trying to make it sound like.

blastman

Not everyone, no, but I'd say there's definitely a proportion that are. Anything beyond a fourth or fifth provisional is taking the mick, frankly.

seamus

blastman wrote:

Not everyone, no, but I'd say there's definitely a proportion that are. Anything beyond a fourth or fifth provisional is taking the mick, frankly.

I would hazard a guess that a significant amount of people (such as gucci) applied for their driving licence when they were young. Perhaps they were taking lessons, or perhaps they just wanted some ID, or whatever. Then they may have learned a little, and not bothered again for another year or two (insurance too expensive, cars too expensive, traffic crap, whatever). Then when they actually do go to start driving, they're applying for their second or third licence. Given that waiting lists of a year are common, it's reasonable to assume that many people on 3/4/5th licences may not have been driving for the 5/6/7 years it takes to get them.

If you fail the test once, that's two years (essentially) you're waiting to pass it.

As you say though, there are probably a sizeable proportion of people who have no desire to sit the test. I can think of numerous people (mostly women I have to say, though that may just be the people I know), who would prefer to not sit the test, and waste the €38 in order to get a new provisional. If you're over 30 and female, the difference on your insurance is negligible.

unkel

seamus wrote:

I can think of numerous people (mostly women I have to say, though that may just be the people I know), who would prefer to not sit the test, and waste the €38 in order to get a new provisional. If you're over 30 and female, the difference on your insurance is negligible.

Indeed. If I were a betting man, I'd put money on the vast majority of 4th and subsequent provisional licenses belonging to ladies...

Can't really blame them either - €38 per annum to avoid the stress of having to sit the test seems like a bargain

Having said that, these ladies are obviously no more risk without a full license so they would be my lowest priority in clearing up the back logs tbh

peasant

I can see an amnesty coming here

horgan_p

there'd be uproar.

i think i'll see jesus back on earth first.

peasant

There's always an amnesty if only enough people take the pi$$ ...which is clearly what's happening here.

dudara

seamus wrote:

I would hazard a guess that a significant amount of people (such as gucci) applied for their driving licence when they were young. Perhaps they were taking lessons, or perhaps they just wanted some ID, or whatever. Then they may have learned a little, and not bothered again for another year or two (insurance too expensive, cars too expensive, traffic crap, whatever). Then when they actually do go to start driving, they're applying for their second or third licence. Given that waiting lists of a year are common, it's reasonable to assume that many people on 3/4/5th licences may not have been driving for the 5/6/7 years it takes to get them.

That's a fair assessment for some people. I'm in exactly that boat myself. I've just applied for my 4th license, having held the first two when I was in college and needing to drive during the summer. I was a fool not to have taken the test then. Fast forward to 2007 and I apply for my third license, with my own car and apply for the test as well. I did fail the test, but reapplied straight away. I don't want to be on a provisional and I am sure that I'm not alone in this scenario.

Jo King

there was an amnesty before back in 1979. It's no longer possible to do it again because of European law. There is a lack of political will to sort the situation out. Some of the long term provisional licence holders would be completely car dependent, living a long way from public transport and relying on their cars for work and family purposes.
As usual in this country a determined crackdown is going to put old Mrs Murphy's sister off the road, and what about young so and so who needs the car to get to his job 20 miles away. If he moves to a flat near his job what is going to happen to his father/uncle brother who depend on him to do their driving?
The solution is simple. Bring down the driving test waiting time to about two months; ramp up the cost of fifth and subsequent licences. Make the fifth and subsequent licences valid for three months renewable only if there has been a test done during the currency of the licence.
If people had to do the test four times a year at considerable expense it might encourage them to invest in lessons.

horgan_p

i must admit i pi$$ed away my first 2 licences by using them as id in bars (before garda id cards).i am now waiting (again) for my test , having reapplied the day i failed.i will have wasted another year (and another licence) by the time i get to redo my test. if i could do the blasted thing every week i would ( till i get it of course!!) . 200 euro on pre test lessons that i will have to take again next time before the test.

i can see how someone could be down to 6 - 7 licences. another 2 fails and i'll be on no. 6 or 7. ( probably give up and walk everywhere then)

smemon

Those numbers are disgraceful.

So some people have been driving for 18 years or more and haven't passed a test..

It's ridiculous. Would you let a pilot who's failed the test a few times and not got a full license fly a plane by him/her self with passengers on board?

I don't think so.

colly10

smemon wrote:

Those numbers are disgraceful.

So some people have been driving for 18 years or more and haven't passed a test..

It's ridiculous.

No guarantee they've ever taken one and even if they've failed numerous times they're still far safer on the road than someone who gets into a car without ever taking a lesson.

There are a few stupid rules in our system like -
1. As above - people driving without ever taking a lesson.
2. Needing a licenced driver on your third provisional but not on your second - because they assume that the driver on the third licence has failed a test. For starters they may have never taken one and even if they failed they still have 2 years more experience than the driver on the second one who never took a test.

I don't really see any major problem with the figures above

smemon wrote:

Would you let a pilot who's failed the test a few times and not got a full license fly a plane by him/her self with passengers on board?
I don't think so.

No I wouldn't, but id rather be a passenger in their plane than be a passenger in a plane with a pilot that's never flown before.

CyberGhost

smemon wrote:

Those numbers are disgraceful.

So some people have been driving for 18 years or more and haven't passed a test..

It's ridiculous. Would you let a pilot who's failed the test a few times and not got a full license fly a plane by him/her self with passengers on board?

I don't think so.

Sure, why not, looks like fun...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkNGMlbAKg8

Lord Nikon

The right thing to do would be up uphold the laws that currently exist.

1. Drivers on first, third and subsequent provisional licenses should have a qualified driver beside them until thay have aquired full licence. (yes, it's terrible that some people need said vehicel to get to work or whatever, but this is the law, and it's tough. It's what you signed up for).

2. No "L" drivers allowed on motorways, this is also the law, it's the first thing on the big blue sign before you join the motorway.

This is just the start. The Traffic Corp should be doing this already, you can see how lackadaisical they are with current laws like this. They aren't really doing there job at all tbh.


There should be compulsary driving lessons/schooling now, there isn't, but there should be. People should not be able to go through Provisional licenses, period. And they wonder why there are accidents on the roads?

Wishbone Ash

colly10 wrote:

2. Needing a licenced driver on your third provisional but not on your second - because they assume that the driver on the third licence has failed a test. For starters they may have never taken one

The reason that a motorist is required to be accompanied on their 3rd and subsequent license, but not on their 2nd, is to encourage drivers to apply for and hopefully pass a test within two years. Having to go back to being accompanied is supposed to act as a sort of "punishment" to those who don't apply for a test, cancel a test or those who don't put in the effort and preparation to pass a test.

gucci wrote:

im 23 and will be on my 4th provisional license at end of august, iv only been driving a car on roads for the last year as i couldnt afford car/insurance before, and needed a license for driving agricultural machinery before

If you required the license solely for operating agricultural machinery, you could have applied for a provisional in category W only and therefore would not have 'used up' your category B provisionals.

Tea drinker

Jo King wrote:

The solution is simple. Bring down the driving test waiting time to about two months; ramp up the cost of fifth and subsequent licences. Make the fifth and subsequent licences valid for three months renewable only if there has been a test done during the currency of the licence.
If people had to do the test four times a year at considerable expense it might encourage them to invest in lessons.

Yeah, I like this idea.
If people saw passing the test (becoming proficient) as being important they would take it seriously and get it done.
Particularly young people - everyone knows these days it's practically a necessity to drive what with Public transport being 3rd world n' all, and the necessity to travel outside your own locale.

Also there should be a minumum acceptable standard on the test in order to get the "replacement" licence, what's the point in giving another licence to someone who just proved they are dangerous? There should be a closed "proving ground" set aside to allow them to be trained to a sufficient standard to either fully pass the test or have the minimum acceptable standard in order to get their next licence.
Also worth thinking about is a training licence, where you are only permitted to drive in a dual control vehicle with the instructor.

Linford

A lot of people fail the test becuase they have been driving on a provisional licence for a number of years and have picked up a large number of bad habits. If we had a system whereby you have to get professional lessons and then do your test within a few months of getting your provisional licence there would be a lot more passes.

Being allowed drive unaccompanied on your 2nd provisional is ridiculous. As another poster mentioned, a lot of people get their first provisional for ID purposes and never drive till they get their 2nd provisional. You are legally allowed drive alone on your 2nd provisional even if you have never sat behind the wheel of a car before!!!! How can that be allowed?

Marcus.Aurelius

It will be allowed until one of these 50th license asswipes kills a TD's kid, y'know, someone who matters.

lizzyd66

As a minimum they shoud change the law to say anyone who now applying for a provisional licence for the first time must have an experienced driver beside them until they pass the test. As you know , in the UK your provisional licence doesn't have an end date on it but you are very restricted as to what you can do with it . You can never drived unsupervised and the experienced driver has to have been driving on a full licence for 3 years.

I would like to see garda (or maybe traffic police) rigorously enforcing the current rules. It is a joke how many L plates you see on the Motorway (I think the rule is no L plates not no Learner drivers but could be wrong - it is that way in the UK).

arybvtcw0eolkf

Until we have a national identity card under 21's will continue to get provisional driver's licences for proof of age for bar's and club's.

Most young people I know with provisional licences have them for this reason alone.

rowanh

I dont see why they dont have it like many countries in europe that you can only drive a car having done a bunch of lessons by a state aproved driving school and then you have to pass a test before you start driving on the roads. You would also find in a lot of countries the type of people who cant pass a test without driving for a year first dont drive at all. I dont see this being a bad thing, i think though the main thing they need to do here is sort out public transport and cycle lanes a lot more so people do not need to drive. I live in harolds cross and work near clonskeagh, its about 3 miles, i would have to get two buses and walk half the way if i used public transport, i wouldnt even consider trying it. To cycle i have to go out onto the wrong side of the road or else i have to stop from there being no room on between the cars and the path.

Wishbone Ash

lizzyd66 wrote:

It is a joke how many L plates you see on the Motorway (I think the rule is no L plates not no Learner drivers but could be wrong - it is that way in the UK).

The regulations specify that a driver with a provisional license may not use a motorway when driving a vehicle to which the provisional license applies. There is no prohibition on driving a vehicle, with L plates displayed, on a motorway.

McSpud

Clearly a large portion of the people on 4th+ provisionals have no intention of ever passing the test. When you look the numbers of people on provisionals & the number of tests completed every year its impossible to clear the backlog unless the number of tests done every year are doubled. Have the government regotiated/bribed the driving testers yet? They should hire private contractors & tell those testers where to go.

Incentives to get people to pass their tests
- Enforce the no L plates on the Motorway (setup check points as people leave the motorway)
- Night time driving ban (it would reduce those car deaths at 3am)
- Enforced accompanied by full licence passenger rule. Tough luck if you need for work.

jimmycrackcorm

What difference does it really make? If there were enough testing resources put in place and people tested. Most would pass either the first time or the second and then who would we blame for accident rates?

The fact is that it is a lack of experience and not whether or not you've passed your test or not that dirves up the accident rates.

I recall in the news a couple of years ago how a young lad passed his test on Friday and was killed in a crash by Monday.

There is plenty of anecdotal evidence of people failing their first test for minor infringments and passing subsequently. Given the high rates of accidents attributed to alcohol and speed, neither of which has enything to do with the driving test, the issue of the numbers of provisional drivers being tied to traffic fatalities is a red herring.


I can't understand in any case why the government can't just bring in private contracters to solve the testing problem on a temporary basis.

colly10

McSpud wrote:

Incentives to get people to pass their tests
- Enforce the no L plates on the Motorway (setup check points as people leave the motorway)
- Night time driving ban (it would reduce those car deaths at 3am)
- Enforced accompanied by full licence passenger rule. Tough luck if you need for work.

Good in theory, takes a year to do a test though and theres no guarantee that you'll pass. It's only realistic to enforce this stuff if the people who want to be tested can be. Anything more than a month of a backlog is laughable.

Deaths on the road at night are generally a result of people drunk/acting the bollox, nothing to do with provisional drivers.

And why bother enforcing a motorway ban, what percentage of road deaths occur on the motorway, if anything the motorway is the safest road that a provisional driver could be on.

Nightwish

I'm 23 and I have to apply for a 3rd licence. I initially got my first licence when I was in school, as I thought I could persuade my parents to insure me, which they didnt as it was over £1500. I then crashed my boyfriends car, and didnt drive for 2 years due to trauma. I got my 2nd licence when I took lessons with the intention of buying a car, but again, I couldnt afford insurance, so I have to apply for a test this year in order to get my 3rd provisional.

Wishbone Ash

McSpud wrote:

They should hire private contractors & tell those testers where to go

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

I can't understand in any case why the government can't just bring in private contracters to solve the testing problem

They have. SGS Ireland began testing on the 11th of September 2006.

McSpud wrote:

Enforce the no L plates on the Motorway (setup check points as people leave the motorway)

Would it not be more appropriate to set up checkpoints at the entry points?

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

The fact is that it is a lack of experience and not whether or not you've passed your test or not that dirves up the accident rates

Experience means nothing. It is the ability to learn from experience that promotes better and safer driving. Some very experienced motorists are a danger on the roads