Sad suffering of wolves today and their extinction from Ireland

Hendrix89

I feel so much sadness for these magnificant animals. They have suffered for so long and they were once widespread in Ireland, as I recently just discovered, until they were brutally massacred by the Brittish invasions in the 1700's.... Bountys were placed on them, cubs and all... Just shocking...

Sad fact is there just may have been wolves here in this county today if it werent for the interference of other countries...

I strongly belive that wolves should be re-introduced to Ireland!! Although it may seem crazy to some people, it is possible. Even just a small batch of the animals at first to see how they manage. There are areas which would be suitable. They have a right to be back in Ireland (more of a right than us...) so they have to be re-introduced! I don't see why not! It's the least we can do.... I just wish it would be acted on....

Please share your opinions.

Wouldnt farmers go mental about the possibility of wolves attacking sheep etc.?

Hendrix89

Yes well of course there are issues like that, but as i understand, wolves do not attack livestock as much as we are led to believe. Provided they are in an area with abundant natural prey there shouldnt be a problem. Of course either way there would have to be laws protecting them from farmers, and heavy penalties.

And besides in my opinion.. tough.. Ignorant farmers were/and are contributors to the wolf's extermination around the globe, so it's time things go in favour of the wolf.

magicbastarder

Hendrix89 wrote:

Provided they are in an area with abundant natural prey there shouldnt be a problem.

natural prey such as?

Hendrix89

In Ireland - deer. When wolves were here centuries ago there would have also been wild boar, but they were also wiped out so deer is the only potential prey that remains now, which is fine.

There are quite a few moderate sized nature reserves around Ireland with several species of deer. All plentiful, and without a natural predator.

So you see it is possible. People with the power just need to get off their arse and act on it...

dranoel

Which areas are you thinking of? Places such as the Wicklow Mountains are full of sheep.

Hendrix89

Well I don't know of anywhere specific yet, but some of the places that have suitable areas are in Kerry and in the heart of Ireland around Co. Laois/Offaly. See the thing is larger areas of woodland would have to be created by any means neccessary. I think areas of land that are currently owned by farmers (which horribly cut most woodland areas into pieces and prevent most large wilderness areas in ireland) should be taken to create even larger forest areas. Of course the farmers would be compensated and be given land elsewhere. It would be a big project but it needs to happen....

Also there is a big problem arising with the deer population in Ireland. Only just starting to become a concern. Deer are rapidly growing in numbers throughout the country and there are debates for deer management. This would of course be immediately tackled by reintroducing the Irish wolf....

Bernard Hopkins

eh,...i say fine, bring them back.
but i dont think there's a deer population dilema,..........
bring in more deer too please.

wouldnt mind feeding the odd wolf,..like i feed the foxes around or house the goddam things myself.

i'd like to save all the animals i could,... feed a fox, play your part.

Hendrix89

Okay well I do agree that deer don't 'seem' overpopulated, but they will in the not too distant future cause the numbers are growing. I have come across quite a bit of info on deer management projects that are being debated so i'm not just making this up...

I am passionate about all of the earth's animals. It's just now i'm at a stage where i'm looking back at history and revising all the cruel suffering entire species have gone through and eventually getting driven to extinction.

I do not want this to happen to yet another incredible animal, the wolf... We need to start placing the animals back into their original territory all over the globe to give them a better chance of avoiding extinction... Right now most of the population is in North America (worst place possible..). This of course is not good due to the fact that they hunt wolves for pure sport in the US (along with bears)... using cruel redneck trapping and poisoning methods aswell... And even wolf habitats that are protected are eventually opened up to hunters by the government the minute the population starts to get back on it's feet. Not a care for any wildlife in that country... They don't have much of chance...

So don't you see? Ireland is one of the many places where wolves need to be reintroduced to reduce the possibility of complete extinction. Another place which is closer to doing this than here is Scotland (highlands), but of course several years of pure protesting against the wildlife organisation's attempt to return them to scotland is slowing it down greatly... Words could eventually cause extinction of these wonderful animals. Governments just need to crak down and just do it. There are always going to be ignorant people speaking against it but it has been proven that wolves will eventually benefit 'everyone' in the long run... Including farmers.

In places like the Scottish Highlands deer are way overpopulated (just google) and are causing problems for farmers. The deer eat away all the grass and even crops now that there are so many.

boneless

I go to the Slieve Blooms quite a lot and have always felt that they would be the perfect habitat for wolves. There are parts of these mountains where very few people go, so I see no reason why wolves could not be re-introduced.

Off topic a bit... I walked with a wolf pack in Siberia in 1989... a wonderful experience.

The Saint

Hendrix89 wrote:

Right now most of the population is in North America (worst place possible..). This of course is not good due to the fact that they hunt wolves for pure sport in the US (along with bears)... using cruel redneck trapping and poisoning methods aswell... And even wolf habitats that are protected are eventually opened up to hunters by the government the minute the population starts to get back on it's feet. Not a care for any wildlife in that country... They don't have much of chance...

OK, while I have no objection to wolves being reintroduced to Ireland and would actually like to see it done I don't think that it is necessary to get hysterical and unfactual in your arguement. I've dug up some statistics on wolf populations in the US and by and large it is on the increase or stable in most areas with new packs being introduced into previously extincted areas such as Yellowstone.
http://www.wolf.org/wolves/learn/basic/populations/uspop.asp

World populations seem to be generally increasing also with exceptions.
http://www.wolf.org/wolves/learn/basic/populations/fall99insert.asp

I fully agree that more should be done to increase populations world wide with them being reintroduced into previously habited areas such as Ireland I don't think the hysteria is necessary. There are some logistical issues also with the creation of new habitats for wolves. Wolves have massive ranges and I'm not sure that our national parks are of an adequate size to facilitate them. Other extinct mammals should also be reintroduced also as well as increasing numbers and ranges of rare and endangers species already in Ireland such as the pine martin and the stoat.

dranoel

The big range of wolves is a problem for Ireland. I would love to hear the howl of wild born wolf in Ireland, but it would be a monumental task to create a wilderness area large enough to accommodate them.

doctor evil

Wouldn`t sheep be a much easier meal than a deer?.

Perhaps control numbers by promoting shooting to tourists.

magicbastarder

i read that as "promoting shooting tourists".
an intriguing idea, but probably not a very good one.

megadodge

While wolves are one of my favourite animals I would be in agreement with The Saint here.

You are stating things that are not facts and being rather unrealistic in your expectations.

Russia has the world's largest population of wolves and in general they are not hunted in the US (as the Saint points out there are currently a number of very successful re-introduction projects there) to any great degree, it's Canada where they are hunted regularly.

I personally would love to see wolves back in Ireland, but I just cannot see it happening for a number of reasons.
1. Farmers and their shotguns/poison.
2. The hysterical "someone think of the children" types spreading fear throughout the land via Joe Duffy.
3. Suitable prey might be abundant in a few National Parks but when the wolf population expands beyond these areas (their ranges are huge) what do they eat - livestock, which brings us back to point no.1.
4. No government support, ie. no funds. People are still ignorant in relation to the perceived threat wolves pose to their personal safety (point no.2) hence the majority would be against any re-introduction, meaning the govt. would say "no".

fits

I'd love to see them reintroduced, but I'd have to be convinced that they wouldnt threat young livestock.... or that farmers would be compensated. I'd really love to see eagles reintroduced. And parts of the country do have problems with overpopulation of deer.
OP, you wont get anywhere with your 'ignorant farmers' attitude... You'll need to get them on your side, not alienate.

Hendrix89

Wolves are NOT living peacefully in the US.

Sad news: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-01-29-gray-wolves_x.htm

This is what i'm talking about. The gun loving culture of that country just won't allow the wolf to live in peace due to the pure enjoyment cold hearted hunters get from hunting them down and killing them...

If you read through the artile you will see how ignorant, ruthless andcruel the american hunters are.

- "Butch" Otter said he will support public hunts to kill all but 100 gray wolves in the state once the federal government removes the animal from Endangered Species protections, and that he hopes to shoot a wolf himself.'' -

So people are planning to go out in hunting groups when they are taken off protection and massacre as many wolves as they can legally... And why in this manner? Can't answer that....

Fills me with nothing but rage....

The Saint

They are already being hunted far more extensively in Canada so I don't know why you're singling out the US for criticism. Surely the wolf being taken off the endangered spcias list is a sign of how well they have recovered in the states mentioned in the article. I agree that hunting wolves should not be allowed unless the numbers have become unsustainable and there is a worry that more than is necessary will be killed. Perhaps instead of killing the wolves they should take some from the over populated areas and introduce them into areas with few or no wolves. I agree that the wolves should not be hunted for the sake of hunting. I think animals should only be hunted if the carcass is used for food and other byproducts as well as population control when necessary and not for trophy hunting.

megadodge

I have to say Hendrix that I was unaware that wolves were being taken off the Endangered List in the US, so you're concerns for the US wolf population were justified.

I also am filled with rage when these muttonheads like "otter" start spewing their hate and as for "friends of the Yellowstone Elk", what the f*ck ???
One of the reasons the wolf was re-introduced to Yellowstone was because of the very serious problem the overpopulation of elks was causing (they had no natural predator), so that's a complete fraudulent group if I ever heard of one.

Fits wrote

I'd really love to see eagles reintroduced

Surely you must have heard of the successful Golden Eagle re-introduction project in Donegal. It has been in place since 2001 and only a matter of weeks ago the first chick hatched from an Irish breeding pair in Donegal for near 100 years (I do believe a pair bred for a number of years in Antrim in the 1950's) and featured on all the daily papers and TV news reports.

One of the many reasons it has been a success has been the genuine co-operation of the hill sheep farmers in Donegal. After their concerns were sated by a number of talks/lectures from farmers representative groups from Scotland and scientists and a compensation package was put in place (thankfully it has scarcely been used) they have got behind the project wholeheartedly.

Compare that with the attitude of the Kerry farmers (shoot on sight) when it was recently suggested (after a lot of study) that the Kingdom would be the perfect spot for another re-introduction project of the once native White-tailed Sea Eagle and you will realise how important co-operation from the farming community is in any project.

fits

I had heard of it, and I'm sure not all Donegal farmers were compliant, just as I'm sure not all Kingdom farmers were against it.....

In case you hadnt guessed, I'm from a farming background, with links to Kerry while I dont live there. It would be magnificent to see eagles soaring over that part of the country again.

Hendrix89

megadodge,

Thanks for sharing my concern.

Yes ignrorant people like that, Butch 'otter' (who is actually the governer of Idaho) really only have one thing in mind, and thats to exterminate the wolf... Some hunters claim, oh it's about time the animal gets some management, they are making my life hard by looking at me from the mountainside. B***sh*t like that... And i'm serious thats the kind of things many of them say. I went onto this forum on support for wolf managment and it's just shocking. I put my mouthful in talking against it of course.

They are already being hunted far more extensively in Canada so I don't know why you're singling out the US for criticism. Surely the wolf being taken off the endangered spcias list is a sign of how well they have recovered in the states mentioned in the article.

^ To the saint,

The point is that now american hunters can hunt wolves. The hunters in the US are cruel, very cruel. They don't care about the way a wolf dies, or any animal. Cruel methods will be used to kill them and wolves will suffer horribly... I can picture them chuckling after watching one die at the hands of their barrel. Then of course they will hang their hides on a wall showing no respect for the animal...

And no, they should never be taken of the endangered species list. History is now going to repeat itself. Hunters (the majority of the US population) are going to ignorantly massacre wolves to the brink....again...

The Saint

Hendrix89 wrote:

megadodge,

Thanks for sharing my concern.

Yes ignrorant people like that, Butch 'otter' (who is actually the governer of Idaho) really only have one thing in mind, and thats to exterminate the wolf... Some hunters claim, oh it's about time the animal gets some management, they are making my life hard by looking at me from the mountainside. B***sh*t like that... And i'm serious thats the kind of things many of them say. I went onto this forum on support for wolf managment and it's just shocking. I put my mouthful in talking against it of course.

There are ignorant people everywhere like this Butch 'otter' unfortunately. I'm sure there are many people who use management as an excuse to go and kill a load of wolves. There are a lot of sadistic and sick people out there. That doesn't negate the fact that management is sometimes necessary when one species is having a negative impact on another. I'm not saying that this is the case here but as a general point. I'm also not saying that hunting is the only solution to management.

Hendrix89 wrote:

^ To the saint,

The point is that now american hunters can hunt wolves. The hunters in the US are cruel, very cruel. They don't care about the way a wolf dies, or any animal. Cruel methods will be used to kill them and wolves will suffer horribly... I can picture them chuckling after watching one die at the hands of their barrel. Then of course they will hang their hides on a wall showing no respect for the animal...

And no, they should never be taken of the endangered species list. History is now going to repeat itself. Hunters (the majority of the US population) are going to ignorantly massacre wolves to the brink....again...

But Canadians can also hunt wolves in larger numbers and have been doing so for years. They are not endangered in many parts of Canada. The same goes for Russia. Where's the outrage out about that? You seem to be venting a selective disdain for the Americans when they have been at the forefront of conservation and reintroduction.

I have not seen any evidence of how American guns hurt wolves more that any other ones or how they are more cruel. I can same the same about the hunters. You seem to have an idea that American hunters are more cruel than every other hunter and I would like to see some evidence of that. The way the Canadians treat baby seals is worse than the way the Americans do. What about the Japanese and whaling (real endangered species). I think your statement about the majority of the Americans being hunters is also inaccurate. I think you'll find a lot more hunters per capita in Canada with an equally high rate of gun ownership. American have guns to knock each other off. Canadians have them to hunt.

And surely if an animal is no longer endangered it should not be on the endangered species list. If animals that are not endangered are on this list why not have every other animal in the world on the endangered species list. I like rabbits and think they're cute so they should be put on the list too! If every animal were to remain on the endangered species list even when the are not endangered this would take away efforts, attention and funds from protecting animals that are really endangered (like the red wolf).

Once again, I am against the hunting of wolves and think it should be stopped in Canada and the US and everywhere else. I have stated already how I think numbers should be managed. Just because a species is removed from the endangered species list doesn't mean that it should be hunted. I'm just objecting to your selective outrage against one group and selective emotive defence of one species that is no longer endangered.

Hendrix89

Yes I must admit it does seem that I am focusing all my rage towards the US concerning wolf hunting. I have a reason.

Russia is another country that hunt wolves to near extinction, but I am not as aggressive towards Russia due to the fact that it is a poor country (most of it) and most of the hunting done there (although I think it's wrong) is done to make money to survive. Of course some hunting there is done for pure sport and that is what really ticks me off... 99.9% of hunting in the US is done for sport. That is why i am focusing on it.

Okay and I must admit I didnt realise Canada was that big into wolf hunting as you say. I have changed my view on the welfare of wolves in Canada. I still wouldnt say the hunting is/will be worse than the US though...

The Saint

Any chance you could enlighten me as to your reason for your focused rage being on the US? I don't know how you can say that hunting will be worse in the US than in Canada. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. Maybe they'll have a permit or quota system. I can't see them letting wolves being hunted to the brink of extinction again given all the efforts they've made in conservation. And surely if the numbers get too low then they will be placed on the endangered species list again.

Hendrix89

Look I really don't want to start a debate or an argument and I don't intend to. As I already said, the American gun culture is the reason, and the fact that the majority of hunters there kill for sport, thus larger numbers of the animal are killed. Guns and hunting is so popular in the US, so the second an animal comes off protection everyone wants a piece. It just so happens that probably 99.9% of the population are hunters, or support hunting. No where to hide for the wolf...

And there is also the fact that wolves have always been hated in the US, dating back throughout most of american history...

There is much more I could go into, but thats my reason in short.


And regarding the statement you made, ''I can't see them letting wolves being hunted to the brink of extinction again given all the efforts they've made in conservation. And surely if the numbers get too low then they will be placed on the endangered species list again.''

It's not the fact that there will still be wolves left and maintaining healthy numbers. I just can't stand that wolves will be hunted. Hunting wolves is wrong. There is no gain from killing the animal... That particular wolf that comes into the sight of a hunter could be a mother innocently on it's way to tend to it's new born cubs, then BANG! Dead. And 3 or 4 more lives lost in the proccess. They should never be taken off protection.

And by the way I don't mean to be giving out, if thats what it seems like. I am just very passionate about these animals, as you know.