Greens vote for government - 87% of delegates in favour

Villain

The green party and FF have done a deal that just needs the leaders signatures:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhkfeyqlaumh/

It will be interesting to see how the cabinet looks.

RuggieBear

the fools. another buffer.

gilroyb

RuggieBear wrote:

the fools. another buffer.

Indeed. Don't they realise that as a political party they should have avoided the chance to bring about political change at all costs? Much better to sit in opposition and finally get the answer to how many angels are on the head of that pin.

RE*AC*TOR

Its still to be seen whether or not this will be approved by the party members.

One Cold Hand

....twat..... i've lost a lot of respect for them....

Liam Byrne

One Cold Hand wrote:

i've lost a lot of respect for them....

Same here, methinks.......I'm also DYING to see which of their "core demands" they sold out.....e.g.

1) Will the abuse of Shannon be stopped ?
2) Will the motorway still go through Tara ?
etc, etc
3) Did they get any answers to Bertie's - let's be charitable - "recurring lack of disclosure"

Someone said on Q&A last night that trust was a requirement for Government.....if that's the case, I can't see how anyone could go into Government with FF.

Jimoslimos

One Cold Hand wrote:

....twat..... i've lost a lot of respect for them....

Why? Change can only be initiated from the inside. I'd say the opportunity will be grasped with both hands. Is Trev still stepping down as party leader then?

Edit: Yes I too wonder how many of their "core demands" they were forced to give up. However its too easy to have honourable principles whilst sitting in opposition.

brianthebard

Liam Byrne wrote:

Same here, methinks.......I'm also DYING to see which of their "core demands" they sold out.....e.g.

1) Will the abuse of Shannon be stopped ?
2) Will the motorway still go through Tara ?
etc, etc
3) Did they get any answers to Bertie's - let's be charitable - "recurring lack of disclosure"

Someone said on Q&A last night that trust was a requirement for Government.....if that's the case, I can't see how anyone could go into Government with FF.

Have to agree those are very big key issues for many or most green supporters (and even just interested citizens like myself) and if the Greens have decided to drop them so they can get into government, well it doesn't say much for their moral or ethical fortitude.

The "deal" is not done yet according to the news at one.
The negotiations are on going.

But it will be by the sounds of things by the end of the day.

Breaking news dot ie were being a bit previous.

Changing thread title slightly.

Stark

Liam Byrne wrote:

2) Will the motorway still go through Tara ?

The motorway was never going to go through Tara, just near it. (But still further than the existing N3). I'd imagine the motorway will still go ahead, but with some sort of a compromise route.

I just hope they win out on the whole corporate donations issue.

Jimoslimos

brianthebard wrote:

Have to agree those are very big key issues for many or most green supporters (and even just interested citizens like myself) and if the Greens have decided to drop them so they can get into government, well it doesn't say much for their moral or ethical fortitude.

It may be that Bertie is still chasing the Independents and PDs so as the Greens might be given the option to opt out of voting or even vote against FF on these key issues, thereby saving face.

gilroyb

For reasons of collective responsibility, an opt out on cabinet decisions is fairly unlikely.

brianthebard

Jimoslimos wrote:

It may be that Bertie is still chasing the Independents and PDs so as the Greens might be given the option to opt out of voting or even vote against FF on these key issues, thereby saving face.

Its not exactly the best basis for a stable and trusting or trustworthy government though is it?

brianthebard

brianthebard wrote:

Have to agree those are very big key issues for many or most green supporters (and even just interested citizens like myself) and if the Greens have decided to drop them so they can get into government, well it doesn't say much for their moral or ethical fortitude.

If you were watching Q&A last night, the vibes coming through were that the greens wanted to get some change,ie some of their policies moving.
They knew they couldnt get all of them and the only way to get some of them was to go into government.

Implimenting all green policies would be a travesty for democracy.

Their other less spoken about objective would be to show the looney right that they aren't as looney left as they are made out to be.
In other words they want to prove a point.

I would recommend though that the more extreme "tree huggers" in that party (if a deal is done) split and form a new one with other unrealistic extreme left wingers.
They could call it Provisional Green Féin.

Jimoslimos

Tristrame wrote:

.
Their other less spoken about objective would be to show the looney right that they aren't as looney left as they are made out to be.
In other words they want to prove a point.

True, and given the collapse of smaller parties and the failure of Greens to make any significant gains from the last election it was probably felt that this might be the last chance to enter government and get their policies to the table.

Tristrame wrote:

Provisional Green Féin

Nah, I'd prefer RIGA - Real Irish Green Army:D

loyatemu

FF - 78 seats
Greens - 6

it would not be reasonable for them to be able to get all their policies into the government programme but its better that they do get some of them in than sit in opposition while FF/PDs ignore climate change in the way they have done for the last 5 years. FF are going to be in government regardless of what the greens do.

It will also reduce the influence of the PDs which has to be a good thing.

seamus

loyatemu wrote:

FF are going to be in government regardless of what the greens do.

Well, the Greens offer a far more stable platform than PD + Ind does. This gives them some bargaining power - it's not like the Greens are on their knees begging to be let in (in fact, I'd say it's the exact opposite).

In reality, any party which enters a coalition will have to make compromises. The FG/Lab alliance has both sides basically agreeing to disagree in areas, but giving each other a sufficient number of their policies. So to blast the greens for making sacrifices is idiotic - if they were to take that stance, they would need an overall majority to keep all of their manifesto, and so they would never be in Government. I don't think we'll see a Green majority in my lifetime

I'd be surprised if John Gormley and another green don't get ministerial positions. John Gormley, Minister for Environment?

BendiBus

Liam Byrne wrote:

Same here, methinks.......I'm also DYING to see which of their "core demands" they sold out.....e.g.

1) Will the abuse of Shannon be stopped ?
2) Will the motorway still go through Tara ?
etc, etc
3) Did they get any answers to Bertie's - let's be charitable - "recurring lack of disclosure"

It's feck all use sticking to all those principles if they can't do anything about it. They'd have an opportunity to actually achieve something in Government.

If the environment really is a ticking timebomb then they can't afford the luxury of waiting 5 more years in the hope of getting more. In addition, if they can't do a deal the risk losing credibility with the masses. And it's the transfers from ordinary voters rather than a hadcore green vote that gets them elected.

Liam Byrne

BendiBus wrote:

It's feck all use sticking to all those principles if they can't do anything about it. They'd have an opportunity to actually achieve something in Government.

Agreed; but if the things they wanted to achieve are the things that they need to discard in order to get in, then there's nothing left to achieve (other than, of course, power).

I'm not implying that they go off in a huff if they don't get everything they want - as stated above, the nature of coalition is compromise, but there are some key areas that they were very firm on, including Shannon and Tara.

As for Green policies - it'd be interesting to see if they manage to make some progress on infrastructure.....the cost (individually and globally) of sitting on our arses in traffic is phenomenal, but most of the country doesn't have a decent transport system.

If the Greens can achieve this alone it'll be a huge improvement for people's lifestyles and for the "car is king" culture. But the services need to be there; if there's no way of getting somewhere other than a car, then people will use their cars.

Example: here to Bluebell on Dublin's Naas Rd = 2hrs:45mins by either car or a cab/train/luas combo. OK, the cost is prohibitive, but it saves stress coz you can relax on the train with no road rage.

Compare that to here to anywhere in Galway, Shannon, Ennis, Cork and there's no other viable option, despite the potential traffic jams, etc.

Motorways and roads, etc are required, but we need effective, reasonably-priced and integrated public transport so that motorways and roads are used ONLY when essential.

mike65

Greena Fáil

Mike.

Lennoxschips

I Can't Believe It's the Greens!®

redspider

Its a risky move by the Greens. Even though the Leadership have said Yes, along with the reference group, they know that even with a Yes vote tomorrow by the members that can attend, 500 or whatever, that this may not reflect their mandate completely, the 4.7% of 1st preference votes and the numerous others that gave them transfers. I think Cuffe's original statement, as in 'dealing with the devil', is still true.

The whole manner of the negotiations, etc, is also far from satisfactory. Forcing members to vote mid-week at the last minute on a document they will only be presented with on the day, and also perhaps with some unseen and unknown aspects, such as ministeries, etc, is far from ideal. As has been stated, there are many in the party that see some power as better than none at all.

But there is a case of principles and how much one should be willing to bend some of them. One thing many voters of the Green Party dont like is another party or TD that breaks their principles. Isnt this why many people (although it doesnt look like a majority of people in Ireland) are on Bertie's back, because in essence in the past he was up to 'no good'? Sargent said that he would never work with Ahern. So what is he doing now? And there are others. The co-location problem, Harney in Health, corporate donations, US military use of Shannon, etc. A long list of principles. So something has gotta give. Either FF hav changed some of their spots or GP have. And no doubt the policy document may obfuscate to show that both parties are standing their ground. It could be interpretive.

But if Sargent/GP ignore their own principles, then there will be repercussions. Not by everyone in the party, not by all the voters of the past, but definitely by some. And how many will be lost and how many will be gained is a gamble, and prone to risk and potential failure.

But even if the Greens do go into government with FF, the Dail chamber will be a place to watch, as it could come crumbling down. Or, it could survive the 5 years.

Its now looking like for Thu:

FF+PD+3 Inds (Flynn, Healy-Rae, McGrath) = 83

Maybe a GP Ceann Comhairle .....

Redspider

aidan_walsh

All done bar the membership vote.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0612/election.html

The Green Party and Fianna Fáil have agreed a draft programme for government.

The 90-page document is to be put to a special Green Party conference tomorrow afternoon and will also be discussed by the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6746969.stm

The Republic of Ireland's Green Party has agreed to join Prime Minister Bertie Ahern's Fianna Fail in forming a coalition government.

If ratified by the party's membership on Wednesday, the agreement will see the Greens in an Irish government for the first time.

The deal means it is now likely that Mr Ahern will be re-elected taoiseach when the parliament convenes on Thursday.

Lucky for Trev that he left his "get out of jail free" clause in the "never in with FF comments", eh?

lostexpectation

im sorry what did the greens get out of this ?

SeanW

I'm very surprised, the party of conflicting interests, publicans, developers, incompetence, backhanders and gombeen-man-ism in bed with the party of ecology, quality of life and sustainable development.

Make no mistake, these are diametric opposites.

Question now is, who sold out?

Heinrich

lostexpectation wrote:

im sorry what did the greens get out of this ?

I presume that Trevor Faust Sargent will get a Merc and some perks. Ryan would be the ideal CC as he is the greatest waffler in the Dail and the Gormless one would probably be the Super Duper Junior Minister for incinerators and polluted water.

Did someone say integrity?

Planet Bertie my arse!

Heinrich

SeanW wrote:

I'm very surprised, the party of conflicting interests, publicans, developers, incompetence, backhanders and gombeen-man-ism in bed with the party of ecology, quality of life and sustainable development.

Make no mistake, these are diametric opposites.

Question now is, who sold out?

Greed is the word!;)

Starring Shifty and Faust in an awe inspiring borefest of Screw the Voters.:p

Cast of over 80 brave warriors.

Heinrich

Heinrich wrote:

I presume that Trevor Faust Sargent will get a Merc and some perks. Ryan would be the ideal CC as he is the greatest waffler in the Dail and the Gormless one would probably be the Super Duper Junior Minister for incinerators and polluted water.

Did someone say integrity?

Planet Bertie my arse!
Greed is the word!

Starring Shifty and Faust in an awe inspiring borefest of Screw the Voters.

Cast of over 80 brave warriors.

I sense angst there.
You haven't even seen whatever it is thats agreed and you come out with those kind of platitudes...
So much for quality of debate.

seamus

The Greens are refusing to release the details of their agreement until it released to its members.

It's a nice idea - it stops the media from putting spin on it and influencing its members, but as someone pointed out, it leaves the members with very little time to digest it. Some may refuse to vote for it on that basis alone.

Heinrich

Tristrame wrote:

I sense angst there.
You haven't even seen whatever it is thats agreed and you come out with those kind of platitudes...
So much for quality of debate.

This is what I have read so far!

It emerged last night that the Greens have accepted that Iraq-bound United States military flights will continue to use Shannon airport and that all new roads planned by the outgoing Government will go ahead.

Meanwhile, Fianna Fáil has offered acting PD leader Mary Harney a transfer to the Department of Foreign Affairs, in a bid to overcome Green objections to her remaining in the Department of Health and Children. However, Ms Harney refused the offer outright and she is now set to resume her command of health, including the plan to build private hospitals on public hospital grounds, when the new Dáil meets on Thursday.

The Greens have also accepted that the controversial M3 motorway in Co Meath, which is to run near the Hill of Tara, will go ahead, despite its previous vociferous opposition to the plan.

There are already some significant items there for debate. Allowing for the trickling of information up to now I am persuaded that there will be more sell outs of Green principles before they get the PD treatment during the next term of office.

Saying one thing and doing another seems to be standard political currency in this country.

No angst there, just disappointment with the flip-floppers.

When does the thread get closed?

luckat

If they allow the road to go through Tara, they've lost my vote. I'll never vote for them again.

They must be some lousy bargainers if they have agreed to this! After all, they got as large a proportion of the vote as the PDs did last time.