Greens vote for government - 87% of delegates in favour

Tar.Aldarion

seamus wrote:

The Greens are refusing to release the details of their agreement until it released to its members.

It's a nice idea - it stops the media from putting spin on it and influencing its members, but as someone pointed out, it leaves the members with very little time to digest it. Some may refuse to vote for it on that basis alone.

They have what? seven and a half hours to think about it?
More than enough time to come to a decision in that time imo.
Really keen to see what the deal is.

sugark

On the premise that what the Irish Times reported this morning is true (and that may be a pretty big premise), this is incredibly dissappointing. I would've been relatively satisfied if the Greens got something out of the deal, but so far it's only an unspecified carbon tax that will be introduced "sometime" in the next five years. If they’ve compromised on issues like Tara, Health, corporate donations, tax cuts and Shannon will the party membership say yes?

It's looking as if they have compromised way too much. What's the point in them being there if they haven't achieved anything and gone back on so many issues in their manifesto while alienating those who did give them votes. I think they'll go the way of a lot of the other Green parties in Europe who went into government in bad deals and punched way below their weight - it'll be the ruin of them. Again, if this report is true, they have destroyed any element of credibility they ever had and proved themselves to be just another power hungry bunch of politicians.

Have lost my vote permanently with this deal. I'll never even give them a preference, even if the iceberg's start floating up the Liffey.

Apologies for the rant, am just livid about this, Tara and co-location in particular... Hopefully as the details of the deal become clear it may not be as bad as initially reported.

seamus

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

They have what? seven and a half hours to think about it?
More than enough time to come to a decision in that time imo.
Really keen to see what the deal is.

Yeah, but you have to factor in reading time too
I can't see it being a four-page summary document

Akrasia

seamus wrote:

The Greens are refusing to release the details of their agreement until it released to its members.

It's a nice idea - it stops the media from putting spin on it and influencing its members, but as someone pointed out, it leaves the members with very little time to digest it. Some may refuse to vote for it on that basis alone.

It's a terrible idea seeing as the media (Irish times) has already published a version of what the Program for government might be and thereby already influenced the GP members. (regardless of how accurate their version is)

Akrasia

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

They have what? seven and a half hours to think about it?
More than enough time to come to a decision in that time imo.
Really keen to see what the deal is.

7.5 hours for the people who will be there for 7.5 hours. For the majority who will only be arriving half way through or at the very end, they will have virtually no time to assess the deal, and they'll only be left with the Irish Times version which i can't imagine very many hardcore supporters being very pleased with.

Tar.Aldarion

seamus wrote:

Yeah, but you have to factor in reading time too
I can't see it being a four-page summary document

Maybe a summary speech while they have their wine and cheese?

Akrasia

The Green Party spokespeople are saying that it's better to be in government and have a say in how the country is run, than to be in opposition and be powerless for another 5 years but how much of a say would they actually have if they can't even negotiate a single concession in the program for government.

The Greens are intended to be the 'back up' guys in case something happens to the PDs or independents. They are effectively going to be an opposition within the government, a lose lose lose situation, Collective responsibility for governmental failures, but no real power to push through their own policies.

An absolute disaster. Hopefully the Party will reject this totally and get rid of that muppet Sargent.

bryanw

Would they have gotten away with those policies under Enda Kenny?

Fine Gael support the troops using Shannon. Fine Gael are in favour of the M3 as soon as possible. FG/Lab were promising tax cuts. Every other party wants the roads finished. Sadly the Greens probably would have got away with what they wanted on most of these. Enda seems so desperate that he'll do anything to be Taoiseach. Has he finally given up now that this deal is on the table?

I say give the Greens the ministries they want, Transport and Environment. Seeing as they roads are going to be built now - leave that with the NRA. Let them fix public transport because it needs to be done - they can't do much harm. Give them Environment too - send Dick Roche to the back benches!

Now what a great cabinet it would be...

Harney in Health
Eamon Ryan in the new "Dept. of Public Transport"
Gormley in Environment
O' Dea moves to Justice (maybe)
Cullen to Defence (maybe)
...and the rest as you were.

Not liking the sound of that carbon tax though.

JerkyBoy

In essense the Green party have gotten little from FF in this deal and are likely to wield little real power in the new Government.

FF are the real winners in this deal as they will be given a comfortable majoirty with this deal and it cost them very little.
Bertie has essentially been handed a get out of jail free card on the Tribunal too.

Trevor has just pulled a McDowell...by acting like everything is hunky-dory with Bertie and his non-answers about payments to him.

It just took longer for Trevor to get there but there's no doubt about it...he's just pulled a McDowell.

Keeping quiet in the interest of power.

I can't see myself voting Green again after this.

sugark

Looks like it could be busy outside the Mansion House today! The Anti-War protesters are being joined by members of the Tara Watch campaign to protest against the deal (I presume on the basis of the Irish Times report this morning).

I wonder if this will have any kind of impact on members. Although if Trevor has any kind of political savvy he would have to be pretty sure that he'll get the two thirds majority needed before bringing the deal to this stage.

Heinrich

Heinrich wrote:

This is what I have read so far!

and thats not in your last platitude filled previous post.
Platitude is not debate as you know.

There are already some significant items there for debate.
No angst there, just disappointment with the flip-floppers.

Ah So what is it you expect?
1. A majority green government some day? likelyhood zero
2.Greens to stay out of government for ever and ever so they have no influence on actioned policy?

If thats your school of though well good luck to you to be honest.

When does the thread get closed?

Discussion of moderation is not tolerated here.
If you proceed with any more of that,you'll see some moderation in action towards yourself and not the thread.

chump

from politics.ie

1pm: Media briefing with Party Chairman John Gormley at entrance to venue

1pm: Documents distributed to party members

3 - 4.30pm: Clarification discussions with negotiating team

4.30 - 6pm: Break

4.45pm: Media briefing with Party Chairman John Gormley at entrance to venue

6 - 8.30pm: Formal motion approving the programme for government and mandating the Parliamentary Party to enter government will be presented and debated. Fourty speakers – twenty speakers in support of the motion and twenty against – drawn at random from a hat, will have three minutes each to put forward arguments.

8.30pm: Vote by secret ballot

9.15pm apr: Results announced

So what do you think will be the outcome of this vote?

Uuuh Patsy

chump wrote:

from politics.ie


So what do you think will be the outcome of this vote?

If this is true ...

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2007/0613/1181302059242.html

"A compromise on Shannon means that Dáil approval will be required before any non-United Nations mandated military flight will be allowed to land, but this will not interfere with the Americans' current use of the airport, since they now operate on a UN mandate.

The Greens have also accepted that the controversial M3 motorway in Co Meath, which is to run near the Hill of Tara, will go ahead, despite its previous vociferous opposition to the plan.

Fianna Fáil has refused to offer any concessions to the Greens on another one of its key election platforms - the demand for an end to political parties and politicians accepting corporate donations.

The carbon tax will be introduced at some point over the next five years, but the level has not been agreed: "It is for an uncertain time, at an uncertain rate," one source close to the talks told The Irish Times late last night.

The Greens have accepted that Fianna Fáil's plan to cut both the standard and top rate of tax will go ahead, subject to Fianna Fáil's election campaign qualification that they can be afforded by the exchequer.

Following strong demands for extra funding for education from Green negotiators John Gormley, Dan Boyle and Donall Geoghegan, Fianna Fáil has committed to spending an extra €50 million a year.

The Greens have sought the departments of the environment and transport, but no agreement has yet been reached on this, although it is possible that both departments could be substantially reordered.

In line with these priorities, it was suggested to the Greens that sections of the department of the environment would be detached and merged with energy to form a new department responsible for climate change issues.

Despite the Greens' demand for two senior ministers - using the precedent set by the Progressive Democrats in 1989 - Fianna Fáil has refused, offering one senior, one so-called "super junior" and one ordinary minister of state post."



Then they would be insane to ....

Excellent.

The cynic in me says if people whinge about issues like Shannon stopovers, Rossport or the Tara road, FF can now say that if its good enough for the Greens then it should be good enough for everyone.

And if people whinge about policy areas like the economy education or health, FF can point to the Greens and refer to their inexperience in Government.

Happy days all round.

Oirthir

Jaysus, if the details off ireland.com are true, then the Green's are being well and truly shafted!

I mean, the PD's get a huge Ministership (Health or Foreign) (possibly a junior for Grealish) with just two sodding TDs, and the Greens only get one full minister, a "super junior" minister (wtf?) and a minister of state with three times the seats?

Not to mention a raft of so-called compromises? A FF compromise that is, ie "no".

RE*AC*TOR

I imagine that the membership of the greens will turn down such an offer.

If you sell your soul to the devil, it better be for a high price.

Akrasia

well, according to dan Boyle on Newstalk's one o clock news, the Irish times report left out a lot of stuff...

marco_polo

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

I imagine that the membership of the greens will turn down such an offer.

If you sell your soul to the devil, it better be for a high price.

But would they have got a whole lot more out of a deal with FG / Labour? I don't think so to be honest. I couldn't see FG or stopping the US flights into Shannon or the M3 for example in spite of all their bluster in opposition.

Uuuh Patsy

Big price to pay to keep your mouth shut for 5 years. They would be dead by the next election

RE*AC*TOR

marco_polo wrote:

But would they have got a whole lot more out of a deal with FG / Labour? I don't think so to be honest. I couldn't see FG or stopping the US flights into Shannon or the M3 for example in spite of all their bluster in opposition.

Maybe not, but that's not the point. Its as much about who they are doing the deal with as what the deal is, as you know.

redspider

Today is a significant day for the Green Party. It remains to be seen whether the leadership have gone too far and whether they left the ground roots too far behind and not with them. Even the members that vote today are but a small sample of the real ground roots, and the latter's only way of responding will be to either vote or not vote for them (or give them a transfer) the next time.

From a Green Party perspective, they had (have?) a manifesto for this election and there are many issues within that manifesto that they are not going to implement. Perhaps pne of the largest is co-location, but the list is long. And if a leader is supposd to be a person-of-their-word, then what is Trevor Sargent going to do in terms of 'never working with Bertie Ahern'? Was all that vitriol in the last 5 years of opposition just 'hot air, just bluster, and are the Green Party (leaders) just hungry for power at any costand not people of their word? These are serious matters for any party.

Without seeing the document in detail, its difficult to judge just how much they had to yield and give away. It would seem though tht GP have given away a lot more of their ideals than FF have. That will make a lot of people uncomfortable, and whether that is more than one third of the people that show up today remains to be seen.

A long and important day for the Green Party .....

Redspider

Heinrich

redspider wrote:

From a Green Party perspective, they had (have?) a manifesto for this election and there are many issues within that manifesto that they are not going to implement. Perhaps pne of the largest is co-location, but the list is long. And if a leader is supposd to be a person-of-their-word, then what is Trevor Sargent going to do in terms of 'never working with Bertie Ahern'? Was all that vitriol in the last 5 years of opposition just 'hot air, just bluster, and are the Green Party (leaders) just hungry for power at any cost and not people of their word? These are serious matters for any party.

Redspider

I mentioned in another thread that the person who got my first preference is now going along with Fianna Fail. If I knew that he was going to do this I could simply have voted for the other Fianna Fail candidate and have contributed to the stable government despite my desire for change.

I would prefer a change of government but at best I would rather a stable one to a cobbled up one with all the various deals eroding the "stability".

Will Bertie and Finian be holding up the same side of the bar in the Goose? :mad:

sugark

Can anyone confirm that it is a two thirds majority of those party members attending today that is required to pass the programme for government rather than a two thirds majority of all party members?

I presume it is the former but if anyone can clarify it would be appreciated.

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote:

well, according to dan Boyle on Newstalk's one o clock news, the Irish times report left out a lot of stuff...

Of course it did,the programme is supposed to be 90 pages long.
We'll know soon enough though.
Whatever it is,it ain't going to kill us and I suspect there will be a lot of things there that wouldnt be,without the greens.

Green involvement in transport/energy and environment may actually mean progress.

One way of looking at it is: Ok build the roads but co locate them (:D) with strong public transport infrastructure and incentives to use it.

sugark

sugark wrote:

Can anyone confirm that it is a two thirds majority of those party members attending today that is required to pass the programme for government rather than a two thirds majority of all party members?

I presume it is the former but if anyone can clarify it would be appreciated.

It's the former.
No doubt positively minded members are being collected right left and centre and are being brought to the meeting on bicycles made for two as we speak...

Heinrich

Tristrame wrote:

It's the former.
No doubt positively minded members are being collected right left and centre and are being brought to the meeting on bicycles made for two as we speak...

Are tandems allowed on those state of the art cycle lanes?

sugark

I took a wander down to the Mansion House at lunchtime for a quick goo at what was going on. God bless the protesters, whether you agree with them or despise them, you can't deny their dedication to the cause, standing outside in this weather!

I guess it's all speculation at this stage and we won't know until this evening how the party membership will go. But having listened to Eamon Ryan on RTE Radio at lunchtime today, I really felt his heart wasn't in this deal. Just my perception of course, but he didn't sound very convincing. No amount of spin is going to make the membership believe that this was a good deal - it comes down to whether they not they think it is a good starting point or a step too far.

I thought one of the most interesting things Ryan said today was that "Fianna Fail don't need us". I'd say the Green negotiators have been told that over and over by FF over the last eight days...

In fairness to Eamon Ryan, he seems quite dispassionate in a few interviews I've seen or heard lately eg. the day of the results, Q&A this week. Its one of the reasons I think he comes across quiet well. He's no table thumper blustering rhetoric. He seems calm about any matter.

Oirthir

Does anyone know if this meeting has a quorum?

I'd be surprised if any quorum wasn't met, but a walkout by the founding types might drag it under..

strassenwolf

SeanW wrote:

I'm very surprised, the party of conflicting interests, publicans, developers, incompetence, backhanders and gombeen-man-ism in bed with the party of ecology, quality of life and sustainable development.

Make no mistake, these are diametric opposites.

Question now is, who sold out?

Well it looks like the Greens sold out on several of their core policies - US military flights through Shannon, the M3, and corporate donations. I have read reports that the Greens wanted Environment and Transport, and the FF negotiators simply said "no" to these proposals.

I haven't yet seen any issue where FF appear to have sold out their principles (such as they are).

If these negotiations are anything to go by, the coalition parties will probably work together as follows over the next five years: The Greens will bend over, Minister for Health Harney will apply the vaseline to the appropriate spot, and FF will then do what they do best.