Greens vote for government - 87% of delegates in favour

redspider

Today is a significant day for the Green Party. It remains to be seen whether the leadership have gone too far and whether they left the ground roots too far behind and not with them. Even the members that vote today are but a small sample of the real ground roots, and the latter's only way of responding will be to either vote or not vote for them (or give them a transfer) the next time.

From a Green Party perspective, they had (have?) a manifesto for this election and there are many issues within that manifesto that they are not going to implement. Perhaps pne of the largest is co-location, but the list is long. And if a leader is supposd to be a person-of-their-word, then what is Trevor Sargent going to do in terms of 'never working with Bertie Ahern'? Was all that vitriol in the last 5 years of opposition just 'hot air, just bluster, and are the Green Party (leaders) just hungry for power at any costand not people of their word? These are serious matters for any party.

Without seeing the document in detail, its difficult to judge just how much they had to yield and give away. It would seem though tht GP have given away a lot more of their ideals than FF have. That will make a lot of people uncomfortable, and whether that is more than one third of the people that show up today remains to be seen.

A long and important day for the Green Party .....

Redspider

Heinrich

redspider wrote:

From a Green Party perspective, they had (have?) a manifesto for this election and there are many issues within that manifesto that they are not going to implement. Perhaps pne of the largest is co-location, but the list is long. And if a leader is supposd to be a person-of-their-word, then what is Trevor Sargent going to do in terms of 'never working with Bertie Ahern'? Was all that vitriol in the last 5 years of opposition just 'hot air, just bluster, and are the Green Party (leaders) just hungry for power at any cost and not people of their word? These are serious matters for any party.

Redspider

I mentioned in another thread that the person who got my first preference is now going along with Fianna Fail. If I knew that he was going to do this I could simply have voted for the other Fianna Fail candidate and have contributed to the stable government despite my desire for change.

I would prefer a change of government but at best I would rather a stable one to a cobbled up one with all the various deals eroding the "stability".

Will Bertie and Finian be holding up the same side of the bar in the Goose? :mad:

sugark

Can anyone confirm that it is a two thirds majority of those party members attending today that is required to pass the programme for government rather than a two thirds majority of all party members?

I presume it is the former but if anyone can clarify it would be appreciated.

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote:

well, according to dan Boyle on Newstalk's one o clock news, the Irish times report left out a lot of stuff...

Of course it did,the programme is supposed to be 90 pages long.
We'll know soon enough though.
Whatever it is,it ain't going to kill us and I suspect there will be a lot of things there that wouldnt be,without the greens.

Green involvement in transport/energy and environment may actually mean progress.

One way of looking at it is: Ok build the roads but co locate them (:D) with strong public transport infrastructure and incentives to use it.

sugark

sugark wrote:

Can anyone confirm that it is a two thirds majority of those party members attending today that is required to pass the programme for government rather than a two thirds majority of all party members?

I presume it is the former but if anyone can clarify it would be appreciated.

It's the former.
No doubt positively minded members are being collected right left and centre and are being brought to the meeting on bicycles made for two as we speak...

Heinrich

Tristrame wrote:

It's the former.
No doubt positively minded members are being collected right left and centre and are being brought to the meeting on bicycles made for two as we speak...

Are tandems allowed on those state of the art cycle lanes?

sugark

I took a wander down to the Mansion House at lunchtime for a quick goo at what was going on. God bless the protesters, whether you agree with them or despise them, you can't deny their dedication to the cause, standing outside in this weather!

I guess it's all speculation at this stage and we won't know until this evening how the party membership will go. But having listened to Eamon Ryan on RTE Radio at lunchtime today, I really felt his heart wasn't in this deal. Just my perception of course, but he didn't sound very convincing. No amount of spin is going to make the membership believe that this was a good deal - it comes down to whether they not they think it is a good starting point or a step too far.

I thought one of the most interesting things Ryan said today was that "Fianna Fail don't need us". I'd say the Green negotiators have been told that over and over by FF over the last eight days...

In fairness to Eamon Ryan, he seems quite dispassionate in a few interviews I've seen or heard lately eg. the day of the results, Q&A this week. Its one of the reasons I think he comes across quiet well. He's no table thumper blustering rhetoric. He seems calm about any matter.

Oirthir

Does anyone know if this meeting has a quorum?

I'd be surprised if any quorum wasn't met, but a walkout by the founding types might drag it under..

strassenwolf

SeanW wrote:

I'm very surprised, the party of conflicting interests, publicans, developers, incompetence, backhanders and gombeen-man-ism in bed with the party of ecology, quality of life and sustainable development.

Make no mistake, these are diametric opposites.

Question now is, who sold out?

Well it looks like the Greens sold out on several of their core policies - US military flights through Shannon, the M3, and corporate donations. I have read reports that the Greens wanted Environment and Transport, and the FF negotiators simply said "no" to these proposals.

I haven't yet seen any issue where FF appear to have sold out their principles (such as they are).

If these negotiations are anything to go by, the coalition parties will probably work together as follows over the next five years: The Greens will bend over, Minister for Health Harney will apply the vaseline to the appropriate spot, and FF will then do what they do best.

csk

The Greens have also accepted that the controversial M3 motorway in Co Meath, which is to run near the Hill of Tara, will go ahead, despite its previous vociferous opposition to the plan.

Whatever little respect I had for them is gone now. I guess when power comes calling principle goes walking. Dreadful if true.

csk

csk wrote:

Whatever little respect I had for them is gone now. I guess when power comes calling principle goes walking. Dreadful if true.

Lol @ the disdain for commuters views in the above post.I doubt if fg and labour if they had the numbers would share it either.

2 cabinet posts I hear according to radio one just now.


I also have to laugh yet again at the inability of some to grasp that coalition is compromise and a party with 6 versus 78 seats all achieved via democracy and that obviously the tiny one compromises the most.
But by the looks of things-at least they are having an impact, and one lots more significant than their vote.
They'd be wasted in opposition.

K-9

Tristrame wrote:

Lol @ the disdain for commuters views in the above post.I doubt if fg and labour if they had the numbers would share it either.

2 cabinet posts I hear according to radio one just now.


I also have to laugh yet again at the inability of some to grasp that coalition is compromise and a party with 6 versus 78 seats all achieved via democracy and that obviously the tiny one compromises the most.
But by the looks of things-at least they are having an impact, and one lots more significant than their vote.
They'd be wasted in opposition.

6 seats and 6% of the vote and some people think they should get all their manifesto implemented. The same problem would have arose under FG/Lab.

I think people should wait until the whole document is released and for what ministerial posts they get for what influence they will have.

csk

Tristrame wrote:

Lol @ the disdain for commuters views in the above post.I doubt if fg and labour if they had the numbers would share it either.

Well I have been a commuter and I still happen not to agree with it...
As for FG and Labour mores the pity, don't FG share the same views as FF on the M3?

RandolphEsq

Does anyone know if you can just turn up for the vote at the end of it, or do you have to be there for the entire thing?
I just got home from exams now so I don't know if it's worth it to go in if they just tell me to go home for being late

Liam Byrne

Seanies32 wrote:

6 seats and 6% of the vote and some people think they should get all their manifesto implemented. The same problem would have arose under FG/Lab.

No, 6 seats and 6% of the vote and we expect them to stand by the key principles that they waxed lyrical about and physically put their signatures on in order to get our votes!

Everything else is negotiable as is the nature of politics, but there are a number of people selling their souls; they promised us that THEY WOULD NOT SUPPORT A GOVERNMENT THAT DID NOT FIX THE SHANNON ISSUE.

If the Greens do get in, I can already see a HUGE backlash against them in the next election, whenever that might be (sooner rather than later, hopefully); I know that they can count me out if they get in based on selling out, and I've already emailed their website to let them know this.

Hopefully the meeting tonight will have more balls and principles than the "negotiators" seem to have had!

SeanW

SeanW wrote:

I'm very surprised, the party of conflicting interests, publicans, developers, incompetence, backhanders and gombeen-man-ism in bed with the party of ecology, quality of life and sustainable development.

Make no mistake, these are diametric opposites.

Or one could reach for other useless glib stereotypes, like (i) the party that has dominated politics and policy in this country and made us what we are in bed with the sandal wearing charming innocents just come down from the trees of Druids Glen, or (ii) the party that has overseen real change in our economy and the civil war on one quarter of this island in bed with the lunatic fringe etc. etc. etc. But of course those would, like your own analogy, be trite and useless in summing up the situation and just really a cloak to have a go.

Liam Byrne

Deleted User wrote:

the party that has......made us what we are

That's not exactly an opposite view, Conor - it, too, depends on what you think we are.......one view is of a shallow, money-and-property-obsessed, overpriced, ASBO and crime-ridden, under-resourced country where both parents HAVE to work to make ends meet and are too busy stuck in traffic to look after their own kids.

They'd avoid the traffic if there were decent transport alternatives and they'd work from home (assuming they have room for an office within their overpriced bottom-of-the-"property ladder" :rolleyes: ), but in order to do that they need broadband options, which are not available, and the telephone, electricity and gas costs also make it prohibitive.

They also DEFINITELY haven't time to contribute to the wider community or voluntary organisations, because of their commute.

And God forbid they try to drink the water....

What FF & the PDs have "made us" is NOTHING to be proud of; we might have gained in a few areas, but we have lost acres in others, and even the gains are being eroded at this stage due to inflation and greed.

CerebralCortex

Liam Byrne wrote:

That's not exactly an opposite view, Conor - it, too, depends on what you think we are.......one view is of a shallow, money-and-property-obsessed, overpriced, ASBO and crime-ridden, under-resourced country where both parents HAVE to work to make ends meet and are too busy stuck in traffic to look after their own kids.

They'd avoid the traffic if there were decent transport alternatives and they'd work from home (assuming they have room for an office within their overpriced bottom-of-the-"property ladder" :rolleyes: ), but in order to do that they need broadband options, which are not available, and the telephone, electricity and gas costs also make it prohibitive.

They also DEFINITELY haven't time to contribute to the wider community or voluntary organisations, because of their commute.

And God forbid they try to drink the water....

What FF & the PDs have "made us" is NOTHING to be proud if; we might have gained in a few areas, but we have lost acres in others, and even the gains are being eroded at this stage due to inflation and greed.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Keano

Everything else is negotiable as is the nature of politics, but there are a number of people selling their souls; they promised us that THEY WOULD NOT SUPPORT A GOVERNMENT THAT DID NOT FIX THE SHANNON ISSUE.

What would the impact of such a move do to Shannon airport? Are there any unbiased figures?

Mick86

Tristrame wrote:

I also have to laugh yet again at the inability of some to grasp that coalition is compromise and a party with 6 versus 78 seats all achieved via democracy and that obviously the tiny one compromises the most.
But by the looks of things-at least they are having an impact, and one lots more significant than their vote.
They'd be wasted in opposition.

A party founded on principles cannot afford to abandon those principles in pursuit of power. The PDs are a case in point. Trevor Sargent will already have been shown for a charlatan before the Dáil even meets if he leads the Greens into coalition.

Depends on what you think is the priority I suppose.
Some influence on government or none at all.

I wouldnt mind half the guff you hear during an election.
Some of it is always going to be like the kind of stuff you say in the heat of an argument-it contains stuff that you on reflection decide you shouldnt have said or that you regard as less important.

A discerning electorate should know this by now.

jjbrien

Does anybody know what exactly do the Greens and FF mean by a new carbon tax? Is it a tax on driving, air travel what do they mean?

LostinBlanch

jjbrien wrote:

Does anybody know what exactly do the Greens and FF mean by a new carbon tax? Is it a tax on driving, air travel what do they mean?

I'm betting that Cowen is already looking at that as a way of raising tax revenue to make up for the losses when the bad times do hit. He'll then turn around and say "it was the Greens." They set themselves up to be shafted there as well.

If it meant that personal taxation went down by the amount carbon tax was introduced then it might be a different kettle of fish. I wouldn't trust FF at all though.

Oh, and good post Liam Byrne

Wacker

So it is accepted.

jjbrien

Votes in 87% in favor they sold thier souls

86.81% vote in favour.
The greens are in government.

Aquos76

86% Voted in favour of backing FF

Jello

So they're in!

SligoBrewer

Jello wrote:

So they're in!

ye but they sold out...

miju

and it seems Trevor Sargent is also preparing to step down as leader of the Greens

linky here

cork_ie

Just seen a fab post on another board

Henceforth to be known as Ghrianna Fáil

LostinBlanch

Heard that on Newstalk about lunchtime.

jjbrien

I just wonder how long this goverment will last? The greens and PD's dont really like each other. Also if Bertie tries to blame his own peoples short comings on the greens I think they will pull the plug. :rolleyes:

Mick86

miju wrote:

and it seems Trevor Sargent is also preparing to step down as leader of the Greens

Wow association with FF has whacked two party leaders in less than a month.

FF must be the Polonium 210 of Irish politics.:D

Whatever about Sargent, the sad fact is that the Greens are about to prop up a party which has brought Irish politics into the gutter. For all their principles and high moral tone the Greens might as well pitch a hospitality tent at the Galway races and stick the hand out like all those FFers. What matter if they save the world if they lose their soul in the process.

jjbrien wrote:

I just wonder how long this goverment will last? The greens and PD's dont really like each other. Also if Bertie tries to blame his own peoples short comings on the greens I think they will pull the plug. :rolleyes:

Ha, no way. Power corrupts. The Green Ministers will like the feel of that power and cling on.

SeanW

^^ what he said.

SeanW

Deleted User wrote:

Or one could reach for other useless glib stereotypes

Ok, if what I've wrote is not an accurate review of FF, then please explain:

Whatever happened to Michael McDowell's plan for Cafe Bars? (The only good thing the PDs ever did) I'd REALLY love to hear your explanation for that one.
Why Ireland has consistently the highest inflation in the Eurozone.
Why we have the most dysfunctional driver licensing system anywhere in the 1st world.
Why we have the lowest quality, most expensive broadband in Europe with the worst availability? Why ComReg is either unable or unwilling to get a better deal for users?
Why we have one of the most expensive property markets in the world with the highest, sustained annual increases in property cost.
Easily among the worst average commute times in Europe.

I would really love to know how this is consistent with a party of competence, coherent interests and transparency. And before you remind me that FF was democratically elected, I'll remind you that so was George W. Bush and a few even-less desirable characters throughout history.

But more to the point for this thread, what a party like that could POSSIBLY have in common with the Greens?

mike65

Government

Mike.

Jonny Arson

Disgusted, almost feels like been cheated on by your girlfriend!

Not only is the FF deal overall a pretty poor deal for the Green Party but they have completely sold their souls with regards to the M3, co-location and Shannon. As a Green voter, I find that absolutely unacceptable. No one can be naive enough to not expect them to make compromises on many issues in negotiations such as these, but rolling over throwing away core policies such as the 3 aforementioned issues which significantly reflect the principles and ideals of the party is writing your own death warrant. I can't see myself ever voting for the Greens again.

I believe the Greens have made a grave mistake tonight. Going into any government with FF or the PDs is a massive risk for any left-wing party like the Greens. With the awful FF and PD record with regards to the environment and standing by promises I can't see this makeup of government lasting more than 3 years. I also haven't taken into account any future economic downturns and certain tribunals.....

Anyway, fair play to Trevor Sargent for standing by his words by resigning tonight. He made the right decision.

Liam Byrne

Keano A Legend wrote:

What would the impact of such a move do to Shannon airport? Are there any unbiased figures?

I would assume that there has been no full research into this, so there are no figures, but then there were no figures available when the Green candidates promised that they would stop it and/or would not go into Government unless it was stopped.

Anyway, what price do you put on human life ?

I emailed the Green Party website today to express my disgust.

As for Trevor Sargent, yes he stood by the "words" that he'd uttered, saying that he wouldn't lead the Greens into Government with FF, but I don't think he's stood by the spirit or meaning of those words; resigning as leader while still supporting FF is yet another cop-out.

I will not be voting Greens next time out.

cm2000

heres to the good folks at ladbrooks who gave me an astonishing 16/1 on ff/green/pd coalition after the infamous rogue pole. only annoyed i only threw a fiver at it.:mad:

ateam

What is the gossip on the ministerial position for the Greens? Environment/Transport/Sport?

Andystoran

I agree that the majority of people that voted for the greens were thinking about them going intogovernment with the alternative FG government.

These voters are all huffing and puffing feeling they have been let down!!!

If the greens can get through the next 5 years and get even a few core policies moving sucessfully the fact that went into goverment with FF will be long forgotten. They will get those votes again and more.

I fear that the fundamentalists could hold the gren party back and bring down this government. Sandle wearing meusli eating........HaHa

Jonny Arson

ateam wrote:

What is the gossip on the ministerial position for the Greens? Environment/Transport/Sport?

I believe FF wont let the Greens get their hands on Transport but Environment is a formality for the Greens.

AFAIK Sargent wont be taking a ministry position so I expect it will be Gormley and Ryan as Green ministers. I'll guess we will see Gormley as minister for Environment

rushbrook

dammit, voted for Trevor Sargent cos I thought they might end
up in government and it would help the local issues in North County Dublin
(having the GP leader in a ministerial position) ... now he resigns and refuses a ministerial position -- feel like I just backed a horse at 100/1 who wins only to find he is disqualified for failing a drugs test !!!

chump

they completely sold out - am astonished!

Not one tangible item!

All FF claptrap - and they bought it.
Let's see how this pans out...

funky penguin

Oh Nonononononononononono NO!!

Damn the Greens and Damn the M3!

BendiBus

funky penguin wrote:

Oh Nonononononononononono NO!!

Damn the Greens and Damn the M3!

Yeah, like if the Greens had refused a deal that would have stopped the M3 in its tracks :rolleyes:

I voted Green and I'm happy to see them take a position of power rather than maintain a warm & fuzzy feeling of principle and achieve nothing.

If the environment is truly a pressing issue then principled failure-to-achieve is not an option. Now's the chance to prove they're achievers rather than protestors.

Real world politics folks.

And if they do a good job in cabinet that will win them more votes, and from a broader cross section of soociety, in the next election than another 5 years as a small opposition party.

mickd

They sold out boo hoo !! I so distraught! Its terrible! There is no Santa Clause Get a Grip! I have never read such arse in all my life that constitutes as political comment. The Greens have decided to join the action and get things done and not stay in opposition spouting the same puerile nonsense I have read here. FF/Greens/PD& Ind for the next five years, Accept it & move on.

BendiBus

BendiBus wrote:

Yeah, like if the Greens had refused a deal that would have stopped the M3 in its tracks :rolleyes:

I voted Green and I'm happy to see them take a position of power rather than maintain a warm & fuzzy feeling of principle and achieve nothing.

If the environment is truly a pressing issue then principled failure-to-achieve is not an option. Now's the chance to prove they're achievers rather than protestors.

Real world politics folks.

And if they do a good job in cabinet that will win them more votes, and from a broader cross section of soociety, in the next election than another 5 years as a small opposition party.

^^^^^

Best post of thethread in my opinion.