RTÉ launch digital radio site and details of new services

icdg

RTÉ have launched their DAB website and press-launched four digital radio services.

We already knew about RTÉ 2XM, they're adding to that RTÉ Gold (classic hits), the cringingly named RTÉ Junior aimed at kids, and a service replaying the last news bulitten on a loop, RTÉ Digital Radio News. Two further stations RTÉ Choice and RTÉ Digital Radio Sport will launch later. (All automated, of course...).

The service is still a trial, but read all here... http://www.rte.ie/digitalradio .

mike65

Hmmmm, no chance of RTE Jazz Fusion and Prog Rock then?

Mike.

Mossy Monk

Still no news on when other parts of the country will have DAB?

watty

No chance of BBC Radio either.

byte

Yes, it'd be nice if they'd consider rolling out DAB nationwide...

Foggy43

Can they roll out DAB nationwide?

Will we have to wait for the Band 111 TV transmissons to be shut down?

The reason I ask is where I used to live I could receive RTE1 and 2 from Maghera, Mullaghanish and Mount Leinster. The same can be said for North East Cork, West Tipperary, East Limerick and parts off Clare. Is there room for multiplexes here with Band 111 TV still operational?

I did read somewhere DAB maybe for built up areas only......for the moment.

L1011

12A and 12C are clear throughout the country - DAB uses the same frequency in all areas (SFN)

Solair

Trying DAB out at the moment - I have to say the sound quality's not exactly inspiring. Getting a perfect signal 100% strength and quality. However, it sounds really over-compressed and a bit like real player or something rather than 'real radio'.

Bit rates are pretty poor :
RTE Radio 1 : 128kbps stereo (OKish)
2FM : 128kbps stereo (OKish)
Lyric : 160kbps stereo (Very good)
RnaG 128kbps stereo (OKish)
RTE Gold : 128kbps stereo (OKish)
RTE Choice 80kbps stereo (No Audio)
RTE 2XM 128kbits stereo (OKish)
RTE Junior 80kbps mono (odd for a mostly music station)
RTE Digital News 48kbps Mono (sounds like it's playing down a phone line)
Service 10 (RTE Sport?) 48kbps Mono (also sounds like its being played down a phoneline)

Today FM 128kbps Stereo (OKish)
Newstalk 64kbps Mono (OKish)
FM104 128kbps Stereo (OKish)
Phantom 128kbps Stereo (Very poor - sounds distorted)
Q102 128kbps Stereo (OK)
98FM 128kbps Stereo (No audio)

L1011

Phantom has been fine for me at 128k and FM104 frequently sounds distorted to me...

Solair

I find it utter madness that RTE haven't adopted AAC+/DAB+ rather than standard DAB. The likes of Pure are planning on having 80% of their DAB radios capable of handing DAB or DAB+ from the end of the summer.

Seems utter madness to roll out 'classic' DAB in Ireland.

DAB+ might also give better service in low density areas as it's more robust and has better error correction. So, weak signals won't sound like 'bubbling mud' quite so often.

Not to mention the fact that you can get more channels into the multiplexes without sacrificing sound quality.

L1011

Because it started two years ago and there was no DAB+ then? That said, we were being convinced DAB+ receivers would be available "by the end of the summer" 2006 too....

DMC

Ooh, we had a goooooood strong hefty debate about this when the trials started in January 2006.

Also, there is a good thread discussing the bitrates and the technology.

I've also heard that the sound out of a Pure One isn't the best. A Pure Evoke IIXT or III beats it hands down.

L1011

DMC wrote:

Ooh, we had a goooooood strong hefty debate about this when the trials started in January 2006.

Also, there is a good thread discussing the bitrates and the technology.

I've also heard that the sound out of a Pure One isn't the best. A Pure Evoke IIXT or III beats it hands down.

Evoke forever! </fanboi>

SimonMaher

MYOB wrote:

Phantom has been fine for me at 128k and FM104 frequently sounds distorted to me...

Im not hearing that distortion either, perhaps it was an in-studio session or Metal Notes

Need to boost the audio level a bit on our end though, will get that sorted on Monday.

Im not going to get into the DAB v DAB+ debate, but will just say what I have said to everyone else who has asked me about DAB. The absolute key to its success is in the Content and if the content is good (extra services, formats not generally available etc) then it will be a success. Joe Public is perfectly happy with the quality at 128k...Ive asked him.

Simon

lucernarian

I don't mind that much about the quality of it, which can be slightly noticed as simply a lower volume on the first hearing. I'm basing this on the new bunch of radio stations on DTT, but I get the impression that they would be at 128-160 kbps.

It was a bit shortsighted allright, but with hi-fis and car radios simply coming with DAB and it remaining that way for some time, RTÉ may have had no choice if they want people to use it.

So long as I can listen to Phantom in FM stereo for the years to come, I won't care about what DAB is like.

What's the deal with the RTÉ junior station?? Do they really think that young kids or even older ones will care about some digital radio station when they have TV to entertain them?? Waste of bandwidth IMO.

L1011

Most of the people criticising the 128k quality HAVE NOT LISTENED to DAB here - many are basing it off the UK, which uses older coders, older technology in general for DAB - and delivers worse sound quality, bit for bit.

watty

1) FM is much poorer than 30 years ago due to excessive processing and compression.
2) It's the same standard as in UK and here. 100% compatible. Thus at same bit rate bound to be similar. Same codecs.
3) Feeding DAB with over processed feed for FM is bad. Whatever about the right & wrong of Processing of FM (IMO should be stopped and car Radios should have a processor setting for compression to alieviate road noise etc), DAB codecs should be fed with unprocessed audio.

I'll get around to listening to DAB in UK and Here some day, meanwhile my own music collection is 256k MP3. On headphones 128k MP3 stereo (And I have cloth ears) sounds distorted compared with my CDs on 4ft column speakers. Of course if you only listen to overprocessed FM and Internet Downloads, maybe 128k MP3 is OK.

4) For Stereo, 128k MP2 (DAB) is generally regarded as subjectively poorer than 128k ACC (ACC used in DAB+ and DRM) or MP3

5) If Dab is simply an excuse for RTE to dilute their output on Radio I can't see the point. Content is more important than nuances of coding quality. RTE1 and RTE2 Radio need MAJOR content overhauls. Why don't RTE management want BBC Radio on DAB? To much competition. Their own DAB people recommended it. The cost of paying for it is cheaper than making up their own stuff.

RTE is not accountable enough as a PSB to the licence fee payer (yes I know there is no Wireless Licence anymore).

If I thought they would use 1 DAB channel for all the music on RTE1 and another DAB channel for all the phone ins, and fill the gap on RTE1 with more news, current affairs, plays, drama, reviews etc. And start the news earlier in the morning and drop the August Morning news holiday, I'd buy a DAB radio and cheer RTE out in the street tomorrow.

(I'd only listen to RTE1 and BBC R4 though )

flogen

watty wrote:

If I thought they would use 1 DAB channel for all the music on RTE1 and another DAB channel for all the phone ins, and fill the gap on RTE1 with more news, current affairs, plays, drama, reviews etc. And start the news earlier in the morning and drop the August Morning news holiday, I'd buy a DAB radio and cheer RTE out in the street tomorrow.

I'm kinda hoping RTÉ Choice will eventually do what you want RTÉ Radio 1 to do, although it probably won't for some time. At the moment it seems to lining up to be a repeat service for RTÉ Radio 1, with some added archive stuff and more comedy - as it's developed over time I hope it turns into a dedicated Current Affairs channel (or else they turn Digital Radio News into a proper channel with regular news headlines amongst current affairs programming).

Antenna

To_be_confirmed wrote:

What's the deal with the RTÉ junior station?? Do they really think that young kids or even older ones will care about some digital radio station when they have TV to entertain them?? Waste of bandwidth IMO.

Agreed. Nowadays kids have their own TV in the bedroom, and a mobile phone since age 6 or 7. They won't care.
Back in more innocent times in the 1980s, 2FM (or I think it was called Radio 2 at the time) had a kids show on Saturday mornings called 'Poparama' but it didn't last. Anyone remember turning on a radio then and hearing 'Auntie Poppy's Story time' on Poparama. Maybe RTE Junior is going to carry re-runs of it?

DMC

Poparama lasted almost 10 years, but even at that stage, the BBC had dropped Junior Choice. BBC 7 on DAB in the UK has kids programming.

I can see RTÉ Choice being an extension of "Second Helpings" on MW 567 kHz from 2pm-6pm at weekends.

Cork

I know nothing on digital radio.

Will UK stations be available?

Will local stations be available?

Anyone heard of TodayFm's plans?

DMC

Cork wrote:

I know nothing on digital radio.

Welcome along, the place to find out.

Cork wrote:

Will UK stations be available?

Doesn't look likely.

Cork wrote:

Will local stations be available?

Most of the local stations in Dublin are on DAB at present, but not from the Clermont Carn transmitter. It is entirely possible that local stations will appear on Mux 2

Cork wrote:

Anyone heard of TodayFm's plans?

They are on Mux 2 from Three Rock transmitter at present.

lucernarian

On a related topic, could anyone confirm that all except 1 of the digital radio channels on Mux 1 DTT are at 192 kbps? They're high enough, a couple of songs on it sounded better than a 128 mp3 version of them, but there could be other reasons.

I think that DAB has better uses than enlarging rte's repeat schedule. Having a single national equivalent of Phantom would concentrate the best of its genre in one station.

I feel that the likes of established genre stations like Newstalk and whatnot are the ones to use a DAB multiplex. Why does RTÉ have to duplicate this with a future news service of their own?

Another possible use, though probably unlikely, is to relay the regional radio stations nationally so that people who have moved away can still listen in.

As for regional multiplexes, I wonder how they will be filled. There are allocations for them, aren't there?

Solair

Well, you could have a range of national specialist music channels etc on DAB, I just hope that it doesn't mean a re-centralisation of all radio in Dublin. DAB should open up opportunities for national stations to broadcast from places other than Dublin.

RTE has a terrible tendency to want to absolutely everything out of Montrose...

While Phantom's very good etc, I don't necessarily think it's very fair on the local independent stations or other potential compeditors to simply make it a national station.

We should have a few genre slots that are opened up on DAB to be filled by whoever makes the best bid. Not just let RTE go mad rolling out automated stations that consist of nothing but a PC in Montrose.

flogen

To_be_confirmed wrote:

I think that DAB has better uses than enlarging rte's repeat schedule. Having a single national equivalent of Phantom would concentrate the best of its genre in one station.

I get the feeling that's what 2XM is all about and if it sticks around once the trial ends and a full service resumes then people in Phantom would have every right to be seriously pissed off

I feel that the likes of established genre stations like Newstalk and whatnot are the ones to use a DAB multiplex. Why does RTÉ have to duplicate this with a future news service of their own?

There's room for both if RTÉ are willing to do something different - a focus on documentaries and features rather than talk shows would be an example.

Another possible use, though probably unlikely, is to relay the regional radio stations nationally so that people who have moved away can still listen in.

Can't see that happening as it would probably ruin plenty of local stations and just confuse the whole system - the internet does a good enough job of providing a far away station tbh.

lucernarian

I'm not sure why relaying the local stations on DAB would ruin them. And I can't see how a multiplex of regional channels would be confusing to the "system" or to people. There is a big issue in what regional channels would get the slot in the multiplex, but mabye with high compression, they could fit them all?

Funny you should mention the internet in providing the local stations. I was at the pc this afternoon and wanted to listen to the Louth vs Wicklow. No radio in the room, so I went to LMFM.ie and listened to the 32 kbps stereo (i.e. 16 kbps mono) stream, which actually wasn't atrocious in quality. But it was a disaster.

Far from being a good enough job, the amount of gaps in the sound was unbearable. A second pause twice or so every minute is not desperate in itself, but it is when you are following football commentary. I had to get a portable radio wired up after 5 minutes. And the broadband connection was good enough for rte radio.

I thought RTE choice was meant for the documentaries and features? Mabye Phantom would be broadcast nationally, instead of RTE duplicating similar content.

flogen

To_be_confirmed wrote:

I'm not sure why relaying the local stations on DAB would ruin them. And I can't see how a multiplex of regional channels would be confusing to the "system" or to people. There is a big issue in what regional channels would get the slot in the multiplex, but mabye with high compression, they could fit them all?

Well it would effectively make all stations national, which causes a dilemma. Do the stations continue to act as regional stations (while having their market flooded with loads of other stations offering the same content, including Dublin stations which have big budgets) or do they begin to act as national stations and risk loosing the local listenership who tune in because they're local.

Funny you should mention the internet in providing the local stations. I was at the pc this afternoon and wanted to listen to the Louth vs Wicklow. No radio in the room, so I went to LMFM.ie and listened to the 32 kbps stereo (i.e. 16 kbps mono) stream, which actually wasn't atrocious in quality. But it was a disaster.

Far from being a good enough job, the amount of gaps in the sound was unbearable. A second pause twice or so every minute is not desperate in itself, but it is when you are following football commentary. I had to get a portable radio wired up after 5 minutes. And the broadband connection was good enough for rte radio.

Well that's obviously LMFM failing to provide a decent online service - if they can't get online broadcasting right, then DAB might be a step too far for them too!

I thought RTE choice was meant for the documentaries and features?

Well the press release says it will "bring listeners a day-time choice of comedy, documentaries, vintage shows, music, international programming and well known presenters broadcasting at alternative times"

Well known presenters broadcasting at alternative times simply means repeats of popular shows from other RTÉ stations. Documentaries and music could easily be repeats of RTÉ Radio 1 docs and music shows and vintage shows is just archive material.
Comedy and international programming might be where the unique content comes from, but I'm not getting my hopes up for too much new stuff tbh.

Mabye Phantom would be broadcast nationally, instead of RTE duplicating similar content.

Maybe if 1) Phantom were willing to and 2) RTÉ were willing to have competition take a market for themselves.

Solair

Well it would have to go out to tender / open competition. It wouldn't be fair for an established local station to simply be rolled out nationwide.

L1011

watty wrote:

2) It's the same standard as in UK and here. 100% compatible. Thus at same bit rate bound to be similar. Same codecs.

That means nothing. You encode the same track with a 1998-era mp3 encoder and a 2007-era LAME build and tell me the sound -anything- like each other. Yet while a 1998 decoder will play the 2007-encoder made track the 2007 made one will sound significantly better than the 1998 made. The same applies to Musicam but in fact more drastically so - because of its wide deployment in bandwidth critical situations even more work has been put in to codec effeciency.

watty

There is a certain truth in what you say, especially in consumer gear. Not so true with Professional encoders. Certainly that is my experience with MPEG2 Video over last 10 years.

But the firmware in codecs is easily upgraded, and no mater how good 128K MP2 is (DAB), 128K MP3 and 128K ACC are going to sound a lot better.

If MP2 encoding has improved significantly the UK encoders would be upgraded, especially professional ones that new DSP code can be bootstrapped into essentially almost for free.

I've no doubt that 128k MP2 (DAB) well encoded that is better processed copy of an over processed badly setup FM station, will sound fine.

However I won't claim your wrong. I just think it's unlikely that 128k MP2 (DAB) can sound as good as 265k MP2 or 192K MP3 all directly ripped from CD with no additional processing.

MP3 is much harder to encode and decode properly compared with MP2 so I'd expect a big improvement in consumer /free MP3 encoding. I've been encoding MP2 since VCD was released (over 10 years?) and I don't notice any much difference in the audio. OTH I can now encode MPEG1 & MPEG2 much better than the original official Philips Star Trek CDi and VCD even at same bit rate.

(They are truely awfull)

Mickey Mike

Hello, its 13 years on, my God we didn't get very far with digital radio, its due to be closed this month. The format was never promoted or pushed. I think we should keep RTE Pulse and RTE Gold on saorview and online. What do you think.