Speeding up when being overtaken

cpoh1

Anan1 wrote:

Firstly, 4000rpm in 4th does not equate to 8000rpm in 3rd at the same speed on any road car I have ever heard of.

To be honest, i'm finding it hard to square your ignorance of the basics of either overtaking or apparently even manual gearboxes with your professed expertise as a driver.

To be honest Anan1 youre completely wrong here. My hondas would happily sit at 3500rpm in 5 gear and two drops of the cog later to overtake in third left me at just over 7000rpm in vtec zone and maximum torque. At the same time my old typeR would happily overtake in fourth gear at 4000rpm all day long without the need to drop a gear.

Also technically the safest way to overtake may be with maximum acceleration for a slow car like a mondeo or corolla, but if youre driving a performance car there's hardly a need to be revving out a 300+bhp car just for a simple overtaking manouvre. This is dangerous due to the major increase in speed over a very short period in time not giving the other car or others on the road time to see and react to you. My skyline will pull from 4000rpm in third to redline at 8000rpm in about 3 seconds and in that space of time ill be hitting close to 100mph, hardly the safest way to overtake?

unkel

cpoh1 wrote:

This is dangerous due to the major increase in speed over a very short period in time not giving the other car or others on the road time to see and react to you

I don't get that point. We are in a situation here where one car is overtaking one other car. There is no oncoming traffic provided overtaking is quick enough*

Why would the car being overtaken need to be given time to react to the overtaking car? React in what way?

*Now obviously in a situation with more cars ahead in the driving lane down the road, were talking about a different situation and maximum accelaration might not be ideal

saobh_ie

Something to keep in your mind when overtaking... it is perfectly acceptable at any point of an overtake to get off the throttle, onto the brakes and slip back in BEHIND the vechile you were attempting to overtake.

If you've made a mistake and oncoming traffic appears and you've any doubt that you won't make it comfortably, if the vechile your overtaking starts acting the plick, if you get a funny feeling in the back of your mind, if you didn't see that junction ahead before you started the manouver.

Barrelling through the manouver and diving back onto 'your' side of the road in front of the vechile you were overtaking is not the safest option, calmly dropping back and sliding back into the position you were occuping is much safer.

I generally start overtakes pretty far back in the normal following position, move forward to the overtaking position, when I see an opportunity I signal and use my all of my cars ability to accelerate (or typically half to two thirds of the bikes) and move out into the oncoming lane.

From this position I have a better view down the road, I decide here to continue accelerating and the overtake or to pull back in and slow back down to the speed of traffic ahead.

Continuing the overtake I keep the foot all the way to the floor until I'm past the vechile I was overtaking. Then I stick on my indicator that I'm going to pull in, to let him know I'm getting in between him and whatevers in front and to let oncoming traffic know that I'm not a mentalist.

When I've got a two second gap between myself and himself in I go, cancel indicator, off the thottle, up a gear and let my vechile slow down naturally, as I don't belive showing brake lights to the vechile you've just overtaken is polite.

Unless its the cops, got to let them know I'm not generally speeding along but only doing it for the purposes of the overtake, promptly back to the speed limit.

Although I do the promptly back to near the speed limit every time I see law enforcement. =]

cpoh1

unkel wrote:

I don't get that point. We are in a situation here where one car is overtaking one other car. There is no oncoming traffic provided overtaking is quick enough.

Why would the car being overtaken need to be given time to react to the overtaking car? React in what way?

Why are we talking about one car? Have you never overtaken more than one car in a row? If I was to overtake three cars for example, the time it would take the middle car to look in his side mirror and then start proceeding with his own overtaking manouvre I would already be passing him at maximum accelaeration. Its just not safe to do, never mind the licence losing speed. Surely you can see this???

Anan1

cpoh1 wrote:

To be honest Anan1 youre completely wrong here. My hondas would happily sit at 3500rpm in 5 gear and two drops of the cog later to overtake in third left me at just over 7000rpm in vtec zone and maximum torque. At the same time my old typeR would happily overtake in fourth gear at 4000rpm all day long without the need to drop a gear.

C_Breeze drives a Civic VTi. It will accelerate harder in 3rd than in 4th from 4000rpm.

cpoh1 wrote:

Also technically the safest way to overtake may be with maximum acceleration for a slow car like a mondeo or corolla, but if youre driving a performance car there's hardly a need to be revving out a 300+bhp car just for a simple overtaking manouvre. This is dangerous due to the major increase in speed over a very short period in time not giving the other car or others on the road time to see and react to you.

React and do what? Speed up? Try to shut the gap? When you've planned an overtaking maneouvre, you want to execute it as quickly as possible. This is to minimise both your exposure and the chances of conditions changing while you're still on the wrong side of the road. Sure, your speed increases - that's what brakes are for.

cpoh1 wrote:

My skyline will pull from 4000rpm in third to redline at 8000rpm in about 3 seconds and in that space of time ill be hitting close to 100mph, hardly the safest way to overtake?

If you're going to overtake a group of cars (perhaps dangerous in itself) then yes, doing it full tilt is safer.

unkel

cpoh1 wrote:

Why are we talking about one car?

That was the situation the OP was in

Anan1

To be fair, if you go to overtake one car and they accelerate, they might shut the gap between them and the car in front, thus forcing you to overtake two or more cars. This becomes less likely, though, the more quickly you overtake.

GreeBo

Anan1 wrote:

To be fair, if you go to overtake one car and they accelerate, they might shut the gap between them and the car in front, thus forcing you to overtake two or more cars. This becomes less likely, though, the more quickly you overtake.

Just as annoying as the person speeding up when you overtake is the person who overtakes you and pulls in forcing you to pull back.
If there is no space then you shouldnt force your way in.

Anan1

GreeBo wrote:

Just as annoying as the person speeding up when you overtake is the person who overtakes you and pulls in forcing you to pull back.
If there is no space then you shouldnt force your way in.

What speed were you doing when this happened?

Conar

There was an add on the TV the other day about safe overtaking.
They should be run all the time IMO, and not just for overtaking.

They also mentioned that you should be gaining speed on a slip on to a dual carraigeway so that you match the speed of the road.

I hate it when people drive down a slip on to a motorway at 60KPH :mad:

cpoh1

Anan1 wrote:

C_Breeze drives a Civic VTi. It will accelerate harder in 3rd than in 4th from 4000rpm.

React and do what? Speed up? Try to shut the gap? When you've planned an overtaking maneouvre, you want to execute it as quickly as possible. This is to minimise both your exposure and the chances of conditions changing while you're still on the wrong side of the road. Sure, your speed increases - that's what brakes are for.

If you're going to overtake a group of cars (perhaps dangerous in itself) then yes, doing it full tilt is safer.

I mean no offence here but you obviously have no experience whatsoever driving a serious performance car. I wouldnt have my licence if i drove like you outlined. Redling my car in third gear has me travelling at over 100mph and takes about 3.5 seconds from 60mph. No only is that against the law but it is very dangerous no matter how many cars you are overtaking. I suggest you go for a spin in a decent car and come back to me and tell me full tilt acceleration is the only way to go when overtaking no matter what car youre in. Now if i was driving a mondeo you can be damn sure I would be nailing it full pelt during an overtaking manouvre.

As for the civic vti comment, i had the very same engine in both my crx's and youre still wrong on that one too, dropping from 4th at 4krpm will bring you right into vtec territory over 7krpm and perfect for maximum acceleration. Fourth gear is still more than enough to overtake a car without dropping a gear.

Anan1

cpoh1 wrote:

I mean no offence here but you obviously have no experience whatsoever driving a serious performance car.

None taken, but I should point out to you the dangers of making assumptions based on no information. I have held a full license for 20 years, and an IAM license for 5 years. I have owned a variety of quick cars over the years, including a Lancia Delta HF integrale for the past 9 years, and am currently driving a car putting out over 300bhp.

cpoh1 wrote:

I wouldnt have my licence if i drove like you outlined. Redling my car in third gear has me travelling at over 100mph and takes about 3.5 seconds from 60mph. No only is that against the law but it is very dangerous no matter how many cars you are overtaking.

Yours is an extreme case. That said, assuming you to be a competent driver, my point still holds.

cpoh1 wrote:

I suggest you go for a spin in a decent car and come back to me and tell me full tilt acceleration is the only way to go when overtaking no matter what car youre in. Now if i was driving a mondeo you can be damn sure I would be nailing it full pelt during an overtaking manouvre.

See my response to your first quote.

cpoh1 wrote:

As for the civic vti comment, i had the very same engine in both my crx's and youre still wrong on that one too, dropping from 4th at 4krpm will bring you right into vtec territory over 7krpm and perfect for overtaking.

I think you may be getting a bit confused here - that's what I said.;)

Rowley Birkin QC

elviscostello wrote:

I was driving on a rural road a couple of days ago and got stuck behind a tractor with a huge trailer. Was impossible to see past him, this guy was slowing down to 30km/h going up a hill (heavy load) and I simply thought it was dangerous. I think about 2/3 cars got past him but everyone else was stuck.

Moral of story: please pull in and let us pass you !!!!!

Eh, no. 30km/h was probably his top speed especially considering he had a heavy load behind him.

I spent all of last summer on the road in a tractor and the level of impatience and ignorance towards drivers from other motorist is unbelievable. The only place I pulled in to let traffic off was on good long straights. Problem with doing it anywhere else is that you might not be able get back into the lane if an obstacle appears. Anyway driving in the hard shoulder is illegal and dangerous.

If the tax is paid up on the tractor he had every right to be on the public highway. Going up a hill with a heavy load is best done at a steady pace anyway, no place to be speeding up.

peasant

Anyway driving in the hard shoulder is illegal and dangerous.

Ohh nooooo!

Why did you have to say that? Now there will be at least another four pages of bickering and handbag-flinging ...

Ah ...what the heck ...i'll just throw in a free "rear foglights" as reason to overtake and we'll get another four pages out of that one too

unkel

Peasant banned for mentioning the funny lights

mike65

Anyway driving in the hard shoulder is illegal

Its perfectly legal except on Motorways.

Mike.

kolo2007

simple solution to this problem would be if a road says the speed limit is 100 kmph then stick to that speed limit obviously this is safe to do if that is the speed limit for the road, if everyone stuck to this rule the roads would be safer place with no need to overtake and such

Rowley Birkin QC

peasant wrote:

Ohh nooooo!

Why did you have to say that? Now there will be at least another four pages of bickering and handbag-flinging ...

Ah ...what the heck ...i'll just throw in a free "rear foglights" as reason to overtake and we'll get another four pages out of that one too

Ah sure someone had to stir the pot peasant

It is highly annoying though when people try to mate their car with the back of the trailer /tank behind the tractor, we know you are there, as soon as its safe to do so we will let you past, maybe.:D

Andrewf20

I was a victim of the OPs issue once when overtaking an astra, but thankfully no traffic was coming my way. I cant understand the mentality.

I find myself overtaking fairly often due to some peoples inability to drive at a decent, yet safe speed. The amount to drivers didering on the roads is getting on my nerves. Today I was stuck for 2 miles behind a queue of cars stuck behind a Beemer doing 30mph on a decent backroad with a 50mph speed limit, never mind the lorries, cars & vans doing 40mph on the national roads in condions safe for 62mph.

All I ask is for folks to make decent progress.

Andrewf20

Conar wrote:

I hate it when people drive down a slip on to a motorway at 60KPH :mad:

This is one of my new pet hates, especially since its so bloody common.

cpoh1

Anan1 wrote:

None taken, but I should point out to you the dangers of making assumptions based on no information. I have held a full license for 20 years, and an IAM license for 5 years. I have owned a variety of quick cars over the years, including a Lancia Delta HF integrale for the past 9 years, and am currently driving a car putting out over 300bhp.

Yours is an extreme case. That said, assuming you to be a competent driver, my point still holds.

See my response to your first quote.

I think you may be getting a bit confused here - that's what I said.;)

Im sorry I dont beleive you for one second that you have a car over 300bhp. My example wasn't an extreme case, it was taking your directions literally. You said it was dangerous not to overtake at the most rapid rate possible for your car for it to be a safe overtaking manouvre. Now if you really owned a car capable of 170mph and did 0-60 in under 4 seconds you wouldnt for a second give advice like that because A. there's no meed for it and B. its dangerous to make rapid progress like that in traffic. A lancia delta integrale is a seriously fun car but I wouldnt call it a proper performance cars by todays standards.

My point earlier about the civic was that you maintained earlier that you had never heard of a car that could do 4000rpm in fourth and 8000rpm in thrid when dropping a gear. This is plain wrong as I have outlined earlier. If you agree with what im saying then why contradict yourself earlier when trying to get a dig in at that youngfella?

Oh and by the way IAM courses are two a penny nowadays, I did mine on the advice of hibernian straight after my igntion course 5 years ago. It was quite frankly (for me anyway) a waste of time but money well spent as it reduced my insurance premiums.

Anan1

cpoh1 wrote:

Im sorry I dont beleive you for one second that you have a car over 300bhp.

Really? I'm terribly sorry to hear that.

cpoh1 wrote:

My example wasn't an extreme case, it was taking your directions literally.

A car that can do 0-60 in under 4 seconds is indeed an extreme case.

cpoh1 wrote:

You said it was dangerous not to overtake at the most rapid rate possible for your car for it to be a safe overtaking manouvre. Now if you really owned a car capable of 170mph and did 0-60 in under 4 seconds you wouldnt for a second give advice like that because A. there's no meed for it and B. its dangerous to make rapid progress like that in traffic.

I've already answered this.

cpoh1 wrote:

A lancia delta integrale is a seriously fun car but I wouldnt call it a proper performance cars by todays standards.

Would you not? Out of interest, what is your definition of a 'proper performance car'.

cpoh1 wrote:

My point earlier about the civic was that you maintained earlier that you had never heard of a car that could do 4000rpm in fourth and 8000rpm in thrid when dropping a gear. This is plain wrong as I have outlined earlier.

No you haven't. Show me a road car that is geared so as to pull 8000rpm in 3rd at a certain speed and 4000rpm in 4th at the same speed.

cpoh1 wrote:

Oh and by the way IAM courses are two a penny nowadays, I did mine on the advice of hibernian straight after my igntion course 5 years ago. It was quite frankly (for me anyway) a waste of time but money well spent as it reduced my insurance premiums.

You're proud of having done an IAM course without learning anything? Fair enough, so.

Rovi

Whatever about nailing it for the duration of the manoeuvre when overtaking a singleton, doing the same for a multiple overtake in any sort of 'performance' car would be lunacy in my opinion.
There are plenty of cars out there that would be well into triple figures in the old money (MPH) in the few seconds it would take to draw level with the third or fourth vehicle in the queue, I doubt that anyone truly believes that to be 'safe and reasonable' under most circumstances.
When I overtake multiple vehicles at once, I squirt it up to 25-30Km/h (15-20MPH) over the 'ambient' speed and keep it thereabouts until I complete the pass. This gets me past each individual vehicle at a decent pace, but also leave me with a reaction time margin should an overtakee do something to jeopardize the situation. Number 2 in the line (Mr. Finally Worked Up The Nerve To Overtake) and Number 3 (Mr. Knawing The Steering Wheel In Frustration At Number 2) are the ones most likely to make a move without properly checking their mirrors/blindspots.

In my opinion, any overtaking manoeuvre on the public road that requires the maximum performance of the car and the full co-operation of all other parties, is a dubious one.

cpoh1

Rovi wrote:

There are plenty of cars out there that would be well into triple figures in the old money (MPH) in the few seconds it would take to draw level with the third or fourth vehicle in the queue, I doubt that anyone truly believes that to be 'safe and reasonable' under most circumstances.

In my opinion, any overtaking manoeuvre on the public road that requires the maximum performance of the car and the full co-operation of all other parties, is a dubious one.

Thank you! At last someone who is thinking realistically and not reading a bloody manual when giving advice like most rent a drivers on here.


@anan1 I really couldnt be bothered getting into a cyber war with you over this. Ive made my point earlier. My typeR used to do 4000rpm in 4th and when you dropped a cog touched 8000rpm easily. You tried to be smart with some young fella and its backfired. You made the point earlier that the only effective safe way to overtake was to make the fastest possible progress no matter what car youre in. Again this is not the case, as I have pointed out earlier but you still wont admit that you were wrong.

And no I didnt learn anything from the IAM that I didnt know already and no it didnt improve my driving one bit. You were the one who mentioned it when trying to convince everyone what an effective driver you were, I was simply stating that ive done it also and that it was a waste of time money saving aside, not proud, just statinga fact. As for the integrale put one up against any 90's supercar and it would be eaten alive on track with equal drivers. By todays standards its not a proper performance car, I still wouldnt mind taking one for a spin though.

C_Breeze

See my previous post that said :

"It will not rise to 8000rpm from downshifting at 4000rpm but that was just to emphasise my revs shooting up and working the nuts out of my engine when i feel there is no need for it unless the other driver starts acting the B#&*%x, it would perhaps rise to circa 6000rpm though"

I'll give it go if conditions allow sometime this evening and post the exact RPMs when downshifting, not that I have to prove anything (see above point). ... But in all honestly, I think Anan1 is only trying to have a go at me and nitpicking at the fact that I said exactly 8000rpm ... whereas cpoh1 and Rovi are looking at the situation from a more realistic, logical and unbiased perspective

Oh and Anan1 its a 1.8Vti-S and not a 1.6Vti

_feedback_

bigkev49 wrote:

Eh, no. 30km/h was probably his top speed especially considering he had a heavy load behind him.

I spent all of last summer on the road in a tractor and the level of impatience and ignorance towards drivers from other motorist is unbelievable. The only place I pulled in to let traffic off was on good long straights. Problem with doing it anywhere else is that you might not be able get back into the lane if an obstacle appears. Anyway driving in the hard shoulder is illegal and dangerous.

If the tax is paid up on the tractor he had every right to be on the public highway. Going up a hill with a heavy load is best done at a steady pace anyway, no place to be speeding up.

The road I'm talking about is from Athlone to Mullingar. I met him (and the line of cars) just outside Athlone. He could have pulled in at the straight stretch just outside Athlone.... Drumraney, Ballymore, Loughnavalley or Ballinea. Plenty of straight stretches but no opportunity to overtake because of the width of his load and on-coming traffic.

I've no problems with tractors generally, as most of them are polite and will do their best to allow people to overtake. In my opinion , it's dangerous to have a long long line line of traffic going at snails pace when cars vehicles behind can be coming around a corner at 80/90 kmph

rowanh

cpoh1 wrote:

As for the integrale put one up against any 90's supercar and it would be eaten alive on track with equal drivers. By todays standards its not a proper performance car, I still wouldnt mind taking one for a spin though.

On Fifth gear when tiff drove an integrale around the track it came out slower than the mitsubishi colt hot hatch they had previously, i woudnt consider that (the colt) a serious performance car.

TheNog

I was driving home from work on the N3 just pas Carnaross in a line of traffic. There was a rigid truck struggling up the hill about 1km north of Carnaross with a Ford Transit van behind and me behind the Transit. On that straight stretch there was no oncoming traffic, my speed in the queue was 70kph so i considered it safe to overtake the van and truck. I drop to third gear, checked my mirrors, indicated out and pulled out. I was almost level with the van when the transit driver decided he wanted to overtake too. He kept pulling out to me forcing me to the hard shoulder on the opposite side of the road. I was in complete shock cos I flashed and beeped but he still kept coming at me. I was forced to brake, did a quick look over my shoulder and realised another car had taken my original place in the queue so i maneouvred to an empty spot there. Was really dangerous and tbh i almost crapped myself. I did consider just pulling over to the hard shoulder on the opposite side but the transit was still trying to overtake the truck, it was really sturggling at this stage with a bend in the road approaching. After all that i ended up back where i started.
The funny thing was that the transit pulled into the petrol station in Lisduff about 5km ahead for fuel.
What was even funnier was that i spotted him at the petrol station so I pulled in and asked him why did he force me onto the hard shoulder. He told me to pi** off with myself and his friend in the passenger side started laughing. I calmly said ok, had a look at his windscreen and saw he had no insurance or tax. Once again I calmly waited for him to fill his diesel tank, pay for it and when he walking back to his van, i approached him, showed him my Garda badge and seized his van. The look on his face was classical. He tried to argue with me that he lived in wexford or Wicklow (cant remember now) and it would take ages for someone to pick him and his mate up. Not my problem. I left him and his mate standing outside a petrol station that was closing in half an hours time with a big smile on my face. He fully deserved it.

_feedback_

TheNog wrote:

I was driving home from work on the N3 just pas Carnaross in a line of traffic. There was a rigid truck struggling up the hill about 1km north of Carnaross with a Ford Transit van behind and me behind the Transit. On that straight stretch there was no oncoming traffic, my speed in the queue was 70kph so i considered it safe to overtake the van and truck. I drop to third gear, checked my mirrors, indicated out and pulled out. I was almost level with the van when the transit driver decided he wanted to overtake too. He kept pulling out to me forcing me to the hard shoulder on the opposite side of the road. I was in complete shock cos I flashed and beeped but he still kept coming at me. I was forced to brake, did a quick look over my shoulder and realised another car had taken my original place in the queue so i maneouvred to an empty spot there. Was really dangerous and tbh i almost crapped myself. I did consider just pulling over to the hard shoulder on the opposite side but the transit was still trying to overtake the truck, it was really sturggling at this stage with a bend in the road approaching. After all that i ended up back where i started.
The funny thing was that the transit pulled into the petrol station in Lisduff about 5km ahead for fuel.
What was even funnier was that i spotted him at the petrol station so I pulled in and asked him why did he force me onto the hard shoulder. He told me to pi** off with myself and his friend in the passenger side started laughing. I calmly said ok, had a look at his windscreen and saw he had no insurance or tax. Once again I calmly waited for him to fill his diesel tank, pay for it and when he walking back to his van, i approached him, showed him my Garda badge and seized his van. The look on his face was classical. He tried to argue with me that he lived in wexford or Wicklow (cant remember now) and it would take ages for someone to pick him and his mate up. Not my problem. I left him and his mate standing outside a petrol station that was closing in half an hours time with a big smile on my face. He fully deserved it.

BRILLIANT!!!

Anan1

C_Breeze wrote:

See my previous post that said :

"It will not rise to 8000rpm from downshifting at 4000rpm but that was just to emphasise my revs shooting up and working the nuts out of my engine when i feel there is no need for it unless the other driver starts acting the B#&*%x, it would perhaps rise to circa 6000rpm though"

You and I both know this, cpoh1 doesn't appear to.

rowanh wrote:

On Fifth gear when tiff drove an integrale around the track it came out slower than the mitsubishi colt hot hatch they had previously, i woudnt consider that (the colt) a serious performance car.

cpoh1 wrote:

As for the integrale put one up against any 90's supercar and it would be eaten alive on track with equal drivers. By todays standards its not a proper performance car

For the benefit of those of you who don't know, the integrale is a rally car not a track car. Might I suggest you try driving one? To suggest that an integrale is not a proper performance car is, quite frankly, ridiculous.

cpoh1 - My mention of my cars and the IAM course was made simply in answer to this:

cpoh1 wrote:

I mean no offence here but you obviously have no experience whatsoever driving a serious performance car.

Not that it matters much, given that you genuinely believe me to be lying about my daily driver.;)

With regard to the maximum acceleration whilst overtaking thing, I have made my point and have no interest in repeating myself ad nauseum.