Did you vote Green and will you again?

Riamfada

Has gormely stated his policy on the M3 / Tara thing?

bk

I think it is quite funny, many here who say they won't vote for the greens again seem to be actually FG/Labour supporters who only gave them their 3rd or 4th preference and are now pissed because the greens did the sensible thing.

People like you are no lose to them, as they will make up for that lose with transfers from FF people in the next election (assuming an election pact with FF).

The only people who really matter are the people who give the greens their first preference, in other words actually real green supporters. We should really only be interested in how these people will vote in the next election.

My feeling is that green core supporters (first preference green) will not react in such an emotional manner and will reserve their judgment to see how the greens do in government.

Voipjunkie

Mick86 wrote:

I didn't vote for them and now I never will.

The Greens have gone into coalition with the most shamelessly corrupt bunch of politicians in Irish history since Britain bought the Union. Trevor Sargent is an absolute hypocrite who deserved to be shafted by his colleagues in their quest for power. The only concession the Greens got from FF was direct election of the Lord Mayor of Dublin in 7 or 8 years time. I mean WOW, am I impressed or what. Muesli is obviously not brain food.

Seriously do you believe that FG are better than FF the only difference that I can see is that FF have been in power more often and as such they have had the opportunity to be corrupted more than FG.

I mean its not like Lowry was a saint or young Cosgrave and the performance of their councillors on planning in the 80s was nothing to write home about.

This is pure nonsense that somehow FF are inherently corrupt and FG are honest as the day is long there have been scumbags in both parties and there will be in the future.

Hector Gilbert

Did I vote Green? Yes

Will I vote Green again? Well my decision has been unchanged since before I cast my vote, which is that I'm not sure. From the start I was hoping to see them in government, no matter who with, and though one or two of the concessions they made sting a little they would probably have had to have made them with FG/Labour in power as well. It's pretty simple: if they perform in government (particularly on public transport), I will vote for them; if they do not perform in government, I will not vote for them and since I do not feel represented by any other party I will probably leave the country as I also have Canadian citizenship.

bmaxi

Voipjunkie wrote:

Seriously do you believe that FG are better than FF the only difference that I can see is that FF have been in power more often and as such they have had the opportunity to be corrupted more than FG.

I mean its not like Lowry was a saint or young Cosgrave and the performance of their councillors on planning in the 80s was nothing to write home about.

This is pure nonsense that somehow FF are inherently corrupt and FG are honest as the day is long there have been scumbags in both parties and there will be in the future.

I agree, to a certain extent. FF seem to nurture and reward their "bad boys". " Give us back that oul' whip for a few weeks and keep the head down " syndrome. Ahern in particular is seen to defend poor performers in the Cabinet which makes people suspicious of his motives.
On the core question, I did vote Green, not for their tree hugging policies as such but because I thought they had principles, I'm not so sure any more.

gbh

Breezer wrote:

Yes and more than likely not. I was going to give my number 1 to the Greens but became wary that they might go into power with FF. After struggling with the idea I gave them a preference vote in the end. Never did I dream that not only would they go into power with FF, they would cheerfully abandon almost every single policy that attracted me to the party in the first place.

I voted primarily FG and Labour; FF and the PDs did not feature on my voting card, and now I feel like I have helped put them back into power. I feel cheated. The Greens have an awful lot of work to do if they want me to vote for them again, and I can't see them having enough influence. I can see the next five years being The Bertie Show, Act 3, followed by the Bertie and Biffo finger-pointing and hand-washing game. We'll see though.

I've informed Ciarán Cuffe (my local TD), Trevor Sargent and John Gormley of this and I would encourage anyone who feels similarly to do the same. It might help them think about things.

Interesting...I know I'm going to sound like Frank Bunce or whatever that guys name is...but to me it seems like you voted Green to keep FF out of power, but in fact by voting Green you put FF in power. Or you wanted anyone but Fianna Fail...maybe i am reading it wrong.

tHE vAGGABOND

Voted green, and very happy some of their policies will now become law and they/we will have a group of 'sane' voices at the cabnet table..

I just dont understand the green members [and members of the public] who say they are 'green' but dont want a seat at the table and a chance to make some law..

...do they just want a talking shop [going nowhere] forever

Zaph

Hector Gilbert wrote:

From the start I was hoping to see them in government, no matter who with, and though one or two of the concessions they made sting a little they would probably have had to have made them with FG/Labour in power as well.

My sentiments exactly. I've always voted Green and probably will continue to do so. I vote for them because I want them in government, and as a small party they're going to need to be in the sort of position they were in this time for that to happen. I also know that there will be concessions no matter who they're in government with by virtue of the party's size. To think otherwise or to vote for them because you want FF out is unrealistic.

OTK

Very happy to see two green ministers. Environment and Energy under green control is a massive change. Losing Dick Roche is like getting rid of a wart.

LuckyLloyd

bk wrote:

I think it is quite funny, many here who say they won't vote for the greens again seem to be actually FG/Labour supporters who only gave them their 3rd or 4th preference and are now pissed because the greens did the sensible thing.

People like you are no lose to them, as they will make up for that lose with transfers from FF people in the next election (assuming an election pact with FF).

The only people who really matter are the people who give the greens their first preference, in other words actually real green supporters. We should really only be interested in how these people will vote in the next election.

My feeling is that green core supporters (first preference green) will not react in such an emotional manner and will reserve their judgment to see how the greens do in government.

Phew. I was afraid that there were going to be no rational and reasonable responses in this thread until I read the above.

The reality is that any 6 seat party sitting in government with a 78 seat monolith was going to get the short end of the stick when it came to brokering a deal. They have had to let some key policies go - but they now get a chance to influence from the right side of the divide, push forward their agenda, and can hopefully take forward and be constructive with the ministries they have received.

Let us see what happens before we rush to conclusions and get all worked up.

Breezer

gbh wrote:

Interesting...I know I'm going to sound like Frank Bunce or whatever that guys name is...but to me it seems like you voted Green to keep FF out of power, but in fact by voting Green you put FF in power. Or you wanted anyone but Fianna Fail...maybe i am reading it wrong.

Exactly, that's the point I was making. And it's people like me, who voted FG and Labour and gave preferences to the Greens that have created this situation. Transfers elected the Greens. Were it not for Sean Barrett's (FG) transfers after he was elected, and Eugene Regan's (FG) after he was eliminated, for example, Ciarán Cuffe would not have been elected in Dun Laoghaire. Cuffe got thousands of transfers from these two, as against hundreds from Mary Hanafin and Bary Andrews (FF).

But regardless, it isn't the fact that the Greens went in with Fianna Fáil that annoys me so much as the 'compromises' they made. I fully accept that compromise will be necessary and that given the seat difference most of it would have to come from the Green side. But what's happened is nothing short of a sell out. All their major policies slashed except for the carbon tax which has been watered down to the point of ridicule.

Edit: I didn't want anyone but FF. I wanted FG and Labour with the possible inclusion of the Greens. Sinn Fein and the PDs were also non-runners for me.

Zaph

In fairness, would Enda Kenny have offered the Greens any more? Probably not, considering he'd also have a larger coalition partner to look after as well. The only difference might have been that Labour may have viewed some Green policies as compatible with their own and pushed for them to be include in a programme for government.

sakigrant

I voted fine gael as my first choice with green second. Obviously my transfer from the fine gael candidate transferred to the green candidate. I wanted fianna faile out and am deeply disapointed with the green party. I will certainly not vote for a party which supports such an allegedlly corrupt party as fianna fail. Sad.

Mick86

bk wrote:

People like you are no lose to them, as they will make up for that lose with transfers from FF people in the next election (assuming an election pact with FF).

You mean like the PDs gained from FF transfers having made an election pact with them.

bk wrote:

The only people who really matter are the people who give the greens their first preference, in other words actually real green supporters. We should really only be interested in how these people will vote in the next election.

Well you've dropped 13% of your core vote already and perhaps split you party. Good move.

bk wrote:

My feeling is that green core supporters (first preference green) will not react in such an emotional manner and will reserve their judgment to see how the greens do in government.

Yeah you could see how unemotional and detached Patricia McKenna was on Wednesday night.

Voipjunkie wrote:

Seriously do you believe that FG are better than FF the only difference that I can see is that FF have been in power more often and as such they have had the opportunity to be corrupted more than FG.

I mean its not like Lowry was a saint or young Cosgrave and the performance of their councillors on planning in the 80s was nothing to write home about.

This is pure nonsense that somehow FF are inherently corrupt and FG are honest as the day is long there have been scumbags in both parties and there will be in the future.

I didn't mention FG in my post so your whole rant is irrelevant.

Breezer wrote:

But what's happened is nothing short of a sell out. All their major policies slashed except for the carbon tax which has been watered down to the point of ridicule.

Don't forget the Lord Mayor of Dublin. Now that's a biggie. I can see people all over the country partying into the wee small hours in a few years time because the citizens of Dublin got to elect their own Mayor. Brilliant.

I love the carbon tax one as well. You have to wonder why FF haven't implemented it before now. What an election slogan-"Vote for us and we'll put 5c on the price of a litre of petrol". It's a sure fire election winner.

Sonnenblumen

sakigrant wrote:

I voted fine gael as my first choice with green second. Obviously my transfer from the fine gael candidate transferred to the green candidate. I wanted fianna faile out and am deeply disapointed with the green party. I will certainly not vote for a party which supports such an allegedlly corrupt party as fianna fail. Sad.

In that case all parties (large and small) are corrupt, they've either been in FF coalition partners and/or have their own brand of political corruptness:rolleyes:

I was surprised that the Greens did sell-out and I think they will suffer next election, as I'd expect some Green supporters/members will walk away dismayed if not disllusioned and let down.

Classic Irish politique, say one thing but do another. That's hypocrisy and that's bad, real bad news?

miju

yes and NEVER again

Breezer

zaph wrote:

In fairness, would Enda Kenny have offered the Greens any more? Probably not, considering he'd also have a larger coalition partner to look after as well. The only difference might have been that Labour may have viewed some Green policies as compatible with their own and pushed for them to be include in a programme for government.

You make a good point, and to be honest this was exactly what I was feeling when I voted. However I reasoned that because their policies were compatible, the Greens would probably go into power with Labour (and by extension FG), while I (and seemingly a lot of people, including most FF voters) reckoned they were unlikely to go into power with FF whose policies were incompatible with their own.

heyjude

DarkJager wrote:

I never have and never will vote for the greens.

Their policies such as raising the price of petrol may help the environment, but at a massive cost to the ordinary taxpayer. Tree hugging policies are okay as long as the normal working citizen isn't getting ****ed over to fund them.

With or without the Greens, petrol prices are headed in one direction only and thats up. The cost of a barrel of oil is predicted to hit $80 before the end of the year and thats if there are no problems in the middle east etc, in addition, the strength of the Euro against the Dollar has shielded us from some of the effects of the high oil price, but if the Euro weakens or Dollar strengthens, oil will end up costing us even more.

If the Greens raise petrol prices, then hold them accountable surely, but Cowan decides on tax rates/increases etc and the Greens have no role in deciding world oil prices.

Maybe we should be looking at ways to reduce our oil requirements now, while we can still afford it, and not leave it until oil hits $100 or $120 a barrel

Dalfiatach

I gave the Greens my #1 in 2002, the 2004 locals, and last month.

Had the deal with FF been in any way reasonable, and especially if they had insisted on the PDs (and hence co-location) being gone as the price, then I'd be happy enough.

But to abjectly roll over on every major policy stance and get nothing in return but a lot of vague and meaningless "promises" that we all know will never be delivered by Bertie's mafia...and giving the loathed PDs a lifeline to continue in existence...

It's extremely unlikely I'll ever vote for them again. Granted, we do have to wait and see how they perform, and maybe they actually will be able to make some desperately-needed reforms. But I really doubt it.

Then again, I might leave the country now anyway. I can't see things working out well for the next 5 years, and I've lost all faith in the intelligence of the people and the integrity of the political class.

DublinWriter

Mark my words; this Dail will be history within 18 months.

The whole pact has 'timebomb' stamped all over it.

There will be a Reynolds/Spring type pull-out over some FF planning naughtiness that will hit the Tribunals very shortly.

In the meantime Sergeant has really shot himself in the foot with his grassroots over this coalition.

Voipjunkie

DublinWriter wrote:

Mark my words; this Dail will be history within 18 months.

The whole pact has 'timebomb' stamped all over it.

There will be a Reynolds/Spring type pull-out over some FF planning naughtiness that will hit the Tribunals very shortly.

In the meantime Sergeant has really shot himself in the foot with his grassroots over this coalition.

Your words are marked but I doubt it will happen even if the greens pulled out tomorrow the Government still has 83 and the CC

Besides the Greens need to stay in to prove
1 they are not flakey and can wield power
2 they need to stay long enough to achieve something before they go back to the people

Voipjunkie

Mick86 wrote:

You mean like the PDs gained from FF transfers having made an election pact with them.

They did

Mick86 wrote:

Well you've dropped 13% of your core vote already and perhaps split you party. Good move.

how can you possibly know this

13% of party members who attended a conference voted against going in that in no way represents a split or a core vote share the earliest possible indication of any affect on the Green Party will not be known until the next opinion poll

Mick86 wrote:

Yeah you could see how unemotional and detached Patricia McKenna was on Wednesday night.

McKenna is just one member

Mick86 wrote:

I didn't mention FG in my post so your whole rant is irrelevant.

Well if you are against the greens sharing power with FF the only realistic alternative is to share power with FG unless you believe the greens could organise a 6 member minority administration to run the country:rolleyes:

Mick86 wrote:

Don't forget the Lord Mayor of Dublin. Now that's a biggie. I can see people all over the country partying into the wee small hours in a few years time because the citizens of Dublin got to elect their own Mayor. Brilliant.

I love the carbon tax one as well. You have to wonder why FF haven't implemented it before now. What an election slogan-"Vote for us and we'll put 5c on the price of a litre of petrol". It's a sure fire election winner.

Well those are Green policies that is what the people who voted green voted for

vallo

I voted labour -> FG -> Green and I did feel totally betrayed when they went in with FF/PDs.
Had they ousted the PDs it would have been an okay swap - but to still have Harney's co-location policies in place sickens me.
I don't know how I'll vote next time. Had I responded to this thread the day it went up I would have said "grrr never again! :mad: :mad: :mad: " but having calmed down a bit I will wait and see if they deliver anything.
And I am still on a high about McDowell stomping off the political scene - during the leaders debate he referred to the greens as "the leftovers", the irony of which I find pleasing.
His brother Moore stated that this was the election to lose as the economy etc is likely to be in a much poorer state in 2012. The poor ould greens may end up as scapegoats next time round.
I am fascinated to see whether Gormley will have the balls to do the decent thing with the N3. [The decent thing being to re-route and save our heritage].

joecoote

I gave them 2nd pref.

Now it seems their core principals are: They have no core principal on health. The have none on neutrality. They have no imput on motorways. They didn't receive one pledge on trains v. motorway issues.

It seems their prinicple core value(s) are something along the lines of: we'll make sure the worst excesses of modern developement don't occur. We have the power to do it. It almost seems like the original PD pledge to wipe out corruption in government. Good idea but didn't work. However, the PD were able to push their free market ideals to their logical conclusion on health. FF took the credit. Whilst FF will give some bones to the green dog to allow the Greens to claim some credit for policy change, no policy that affects economic development will ever see the light of day.

Green policies require a real change in mindset. They are expensive policy options. Some green policies would actually slow the rate of growth. If a train network was to be developed instead of a motorway network, the growth of the economy would be less.

Most of the policies agreed for government are only EU directives that have to be followed regardless of what FF or the Greens want to do.

On the whole, I don't know if I'll vote Green again. Their core policy shifts are unpalatable. Their effectiveness in getting their long term goals achieved has been compromised. Where major surgery was called for, they only provide sticking plasters now.

Jonny Arson

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Let us see what happens before we rush to conclusions and get all worked up.

It is conclusive that the Greens have pissed their core principles down the toilet for power. Their turncoat and betraying stance towards Tara, Shannon and Co-Location is only an indicator what is to come from the Greens over the next 5 years. It seems there are some people like LuckyLloyd who just can't accept that there are voters out there who have principles and beliefs and are prepared to stand by them in the adversity of the party they voted for making a disgraceful u-turn on these principles solely for power.

Also lets not forget the so-called the deal with FF is a poor deal, that is the real reason many Green voters will not vote for them next time round. There is little or nothing in the new programme for government that offers a real and genuine change in the governing of this country for the next 5 years from incompetence of the FF/PD adiministration. It is a vague and rehashed document of many failed FF/PD policies particularly in relation to the environment. Sure didn't Dick Cockroche say that all but 3 lines of the Environment document was written by him? I've read the document and it looks like he is right. :rolleyes: There is a common argument here that to be in government is better than not being in government but how is that applicable when the Greens have hardly anything of their own in imprint in the programme for government? I'm going to enjoy the next 5 years laughing at the demise of the Greens and I wont feel anyway sorry for them. They have dug their own grave.

Montallie

I have read Bertie's hands and I see that something big is on the way. The **** is going to hit the fan, as they say. He will resign and the bulldog will take over.

Liam Byrne

Ah but Bertie is sending out signals of forgiveness to Beverley Cooper Flynn.....he's obviously setting a marker as to how he wants people to deal with those found to be involved in corruption.....I wonder why ?

is_that_so

In answer to the original question yes I did, albeit I gave them a lower preference but not as part of the option we ended up with. And I may or may not depending on how they perform. I respect their pragmatism , even if they have rewritten the definition of the word "integrity" to include "except FF offering government".

I am not optimistic that they will perform well but I wish them well. Being in government exposes you to a kind of microscopic analysis they have not experienced. They will be nailed on all kinds of things.

FF has craftily allowed them two ministries that have a high media profile and and are fraught with problems, thus ensuring FF credit for success and the Green party to blame for failures.

The Greens' problem in embracing government, FF with a little tint of green, may well be the rump of the electorate that are not party members and whose transfers went everywhere but FF. Either way I'd expect them to be punished at the next outing - local elections in two years, and they will probably lose some of those hard-won seats at the next general election.

tck

Yes I voted for them and maybe - we'll see how they do.

They got two important roles as ministers, let's hope they can show the people they voted right.

ninty9er

it's amazing how people can see how they're going to vote at the next election. I didn't vote green this time, but that was for tactical more than any other reasons.

Any "Green" suport they may have lost is now up for grabs from the "minastream" voter and "floaters"