Nobody helped!!!

GospelGroupie

On earlier this week I was on the bus to Swords from Dublin and a Spanish girl behind me had her purse pinched from her handbags by a gouger sitting behind her. She stood up to confront him and ask for her purse back. He was denying it and telling her to "**** off". I stood up to support her (I'm a fairly big lad) and I could see, behind him, one of the girls in the gang stuff the purse down her bra.
Anyway, nothing going to happen here, I went down and told the bus-driver to stop and keep the bus closed & call the Gardaí. The Spanish girl then did the same. The gougers followed and started pushing her and telling her to shut up. The gouger who had taken her purse pressed the emergency button to open the door and ran out. The Spanish girl followed and wouldn't let go of him, begging for her purse back. The rest of the gang, four lads & three girls, ran after her and started hitting her and pushing her away from the first gouger.
There were plenty of adults of all ages waiting at the various bus-stops around and not one person went to the aid of the Spanish girl. I did and I got struck with a bottle in the face. I continued pulling the thugs away from the Spanish girl for up to three or four minutes while only one other person came to help, and he was an off-duty garda. Everyone else just stood back watching.
Actually, that's not entirely true. Two German-looking tree-hugger do-gooder types lads came over and tried to prise me away from a gouger who had punched me in the face a few times. Interferring wasters!
Anyway, bottom line is that I got bruises in the face, a cut under my eye needing 4 stitches, a swollen finger, bruised shoulder and back and a 3cm bite-mark on my fore-arm, and it could have been avoided if good people stood up to these gougers.
For Christs' sake, these scumbags and their kind are walking around with a swagger and think they can steal a girls' purse and beat her up if she disputes this. They have society scared to stand up to them. And no wonder, really. If it's only one or two people who will stand up to them, those people are going out on a limb and risk physical harm and retribution as a result. On the other hand, if a larger number stood up, and indeed if society stood up to the thugs, they might feel less likely to get away with what they do. It's taking Neighbourhood Watch to the next level, really.
Civic duty and civic responsibility keep society on-track. When people are too concerned for their own personal safety to help someone else, the fabric of society will eventually crumble. It's already started.

Now, I must say, the Airport Police arrived en-masse and detained some of the gougers, pulling the one I had restrained off my arm (he didn't break skin, no need for hep-b shots or blood-tests). The off-duty garda was extremely helpful and the Spanish girl got her purse back. But she was shocked, not so much that she was attacked, but that nobody helped her. That really saddened and embarrassed me. I was really really ashamed of the Irish people around there.

One nice woman kindly gave me a bottle of water afterwards and congratulated me. I didn't want congratulations then, and I type this not to seek congratulations now. What I did should be the norm, nothing special. Why isn't it anymore?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

this isn't restricted to irish people, have a look at the humanities or politics forum for a thread about an old dude in america who was pulled out of his car and beaten while people just drove by

that's what happens in cities, too many people around you don't know.. why risk your life for a potentially ungrateful stranger

--edit

kudos btw
.

LundiMardi

fair play to ya man, you're lucky you still have your sight though.

Degsy

Give us Concealed Carry Permits for firearms and this sort of thing will stop rapidly.

AlmightyCushion

I think it's just the way society is going. Look after yourself and a that doesn't concern me mentality. It's a shame really. It wouldn't surprise me if some day people wouldn't even bother to give someone directions. I know you're not looking for it OP but fair play to ya.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Degsy wrote:

Give us Concealed Carry Permits for firearms and this sort of thing will stop rapidly.

+1

Kojak

GospelGroupie wrote:

Anyway, bottom line is that I got bruises in the face, a cut under my eye needing 4 stitches, a swollen finger, bruised shoulder and back and a 3cm bite-mark on my fore-arm, and it could have been avoided if good people stood up to these gougers.

This was probably the reason that most people didn't get involved as they were afraid that they would get the sh1t kicked out of them. I'm not defending or condoning them, I ma just offering a possible explaination.

Oh, btw well done OP.

Dyr

There was a study done of these situations and they found the more onlookers there are the less likely it is that someone will step up, it some kind of group dynamic i guess no one wants to be the one to make the first move.

I wound up in a digging match on a 19A with some skanger and his grilfriend who were beating on some african girls. Everyone else just stood by and then made tut tut noises about racism afterwards. :mad:

monkeyfudge

You do take a big risk when you do something like this...

I was fortunate when I confronted 4 junkies stealing a kids runners on Cathal Brugha Street as a bunch of lads in Dublin jerseys came around the corner at the right moment and helped out... other than that I was probably f*cked.

GospelGroupie

Oh no, I don't think Concealed Carry Permits are the answer either. The good people would be reluctant to pull a trigger, the gougers would not be so principled. If the gouger thinks that they need a gun, or a knife, to protect themselves when they go robbing, they'll be more dangerous than ever. BTW, just to show the calibre of gouger they were, they were plotting on the bus to rob a car in Swords. One of the girls called her ex, from what I gather, but she sounded quite convincing as she begged him to meet her somewhere in Swords. When she hung up, she told her buddies to hide in the bushes and wait until she got him out of the car before stealing it from him. Pure trash!

Slow Motion

It can be depressing to think this goes on, as has been said it's not restricted to Irish society ! However you're proof that it's not too late for us, I honestly don't know what I would do in a similar situation but I like to think it would be the right thing, don't lose faith just yet, if you stand up remember there are others who will too ! Unfortunately just not on that particular bus ! Well done that man !

muppetkiller

Not only that but if you had hit one of the scumbags you could be done for assult yourself. It wasn't your purse.

CountryWise

Ya definitely fair play to you, have to admit there is a lot of this going on in the last few years people really dont care as long as it doesnt affect them and its worse in Dublin cause everyone thinks they are too important to get involved in this type of thing but it will happen to everyone eventually and nobody will stick their neck out for them!

Not stirring stuff here or trying to start a debate or condone violence but where im from in the country we get a few thugs among a very decent amount of holiday goers every year who come down and try to think they own the place rule the roost and start trouble, i can tell you the locals arent afraid to deal with them swiftly!

Just saying tis not everywhere they'd get away with it, i am from the country but work in Dublin so i see both sides of it!

Anti

Well done op your lucky you didnt get seriously injured. And it is disgracefull noone will help at all, their all to scared. On a similar note was driving back from swords last night and some junky was just walking up to the cars in traffic at christchurch trying ot get in. I wanted to get out and beat the sh1t out of hm. As said above, i think if peopl estod up to these scum there would be a hell of a lot fewer of them !

GospelGroupie

muppetkiller wrote:

It wasn't your purse.

She was'nt going to be able to get it back on her own. With that attitude, no old person or kid could survive without being mugged constantly. I'd sooner take my chances and stand up to the thugs for anybody, and I'd do it again.

Remember last year two men were drowned while trying to rescue a lad and his girlfriend who were in difficulty in the sea. The lad who had been in trouble in the water had been in trouble plenty of times before on land with the Gardaí.

It doesn't matter what history the person in difficulty has, we should try to help anyone in difficulty, without using violence as much as practicable.

I was very wary myself not to punch or kick any of them for fear that they'd bring a claim against me. They didn't seem to show such concern. It was just a case of pushing, pulling, dragging and bear-hugging them into restraint.

jimi_t

GospelGroupie wrote:

What I did should be the norm, nothing special. Why isn't it anymore?

While I'm all for chivalry and bravery like that, what you did was nothing short of retarded.

I'm sorry, it's hard for me to say, but thats the truth.

What if one of them had pulled a knife or a syringe - very likely that they had a concealed weapon given that they were willing to steal a purse and then deny it on a crowded bus.

You were willing to put your own life and the life of at least three innocent bystanders at serious risk for what, some money? I mean, it really shouldn't have happened - especially in the way it did happen - and fair play for you for doing what you thought was right, but it really REALLY wasn't worth it.

Just my 2c

Duggy747

Well done Gospel! I'm not exactly Arnie-built but I know I would not stand by in a situation like that, even if those scum were a mega fùckton size. I'd feel like a coward myself afterwards for just ignoring the situation or standing by. It doesn't matter if you managed to get the purse back or not it's the principal of coming out of your own bubble to help someone else.

Duggy747

jimi_t wrote:

You were willing to put your own life and the life of at least three innocent bystanders at serious risk for what, some money? I mean, it really shouldn't have happened - especially in the way it did happen - and fair play for you for doing what you thought was right, but it really REALLY wasn't worth it.

He did point out that they were hitting and pushing the Spanish girl, something you couldn't let happen.

0ubliette

well done OP, not alot of people wouldve helped, as you found out anyway. I remember i was on the bus coming home from town one day, and we stopped for a pretty long time at bus aras. Eventually the driver came upstairs and said 'does anyone know first aid? Someones collapsed downstairs'. Everyone sat there staring straight ahead, pretending it wasnt happening..eventually i had to pipe up with 'sorry i dont think so', i went down anyway to see if i could help, offered to call an ambulance, but it had already been done. and the same idiots who said nothing when the driver asked for help were the same ones i saw rubbernecking out the windows and down the stairwell when the ambulance arrived, made me sick.

Slow Motion

jimi_t wrote:

While I'm all for chivalry and bravery like that, what you did was nothing short of retarded.

I'm sorry, it's hard for me to say, but thats the truth.

What if one of them had pulled a knife or a syringe - very likely that they had a concealed weapon given that they were willing to steal a purse and then deny it on a crowded bus.

You were willing to put your own life and the life of at least three innocent bystanders at serious risk for what, some money? I mean, it really shouldn't have happened - especially in the way it did happen - and fair play for you for doing what you thought was right, but it really REALLY wasn't worth it.

Just my 2c

And that kind of head in the sand attitude is what encourages these scumbags to keep doing what they do ! Sure lets steal a purse nobody will stop us ! My 2 c :rolleyes:

TheNog

It is true that ppl are less likely to get involved in a fight with gougers but i can see their point of view. No one knows what the gouger is carrying like a knife, syringe or he/she could be infected.

However if anyone is considering helping out don't use a pepper spray or stun gun if you carrying one. Instead approach the individual and bring them to the ground face down. You can take hold of one of their arms and twist it to make them comply/stop struggling. Dont ever sit on their chest or back or grab them around the neck cos they can stop breathing.

0ubliette

TheNog wrote:

Dont ever sit on their chest or back or grab them around the neck cos they can stop breathing.

Yeah. That would be a real tragedy.

Hrududu

This is terrible, but I have no trouble believing situations like this go on all the time. If everyone on that bus had stood up, that alone would have been intimidating to the skangers. But people think "I'll keep my head down, I won't get involved". Even typing this, I genuinely dont know what I would do in a similar situation. I'd like to think I'd do the former, but you just don't know until it happens.

Give us Concealed Carry Permits for firearms and this sort of thing will stop rapidly.

I think this is a very bad idea.

Dyr

I just noticed that one of the thread tags is Ballymun. Cheeky bastard of an OP lol

GospelGroupie

I agree with TheNog! Restrain as much as possible, for loads of reasons, but primarily for legal reasons, in my book. You wouldn't want to be accused of assault by hitting the gouger or using a stun-gun or pepper-spray. They'd have free-legal-aid pleading to the judge about them being a victim of their up-bringing and such, the judge will think you should know better.

LundiMardi

what's a gouger?

GospelGroupie

Bambi wrote:

I just noticed that one of the thread tags is Ballymun. Cheeky bastard of an OP lol

Sorry about that. I don't mean to perpetuate a stereotype, but the gougers were all from Ballymun, a source close to the investigation advised me.

seamus

Bambi wrote:

There was a study done of these situations and they found the more onlookers there are the less likely it is that someone will step up, it some kind of group dynamic i guess no one wants to be the one to make the first move.

Yeah, that was pretty much it. Basically, everyone else expects someone else to deal with it.

This isn't confined to high-risk things either, such as defending someone. Think of a classroom dynamic. If the trainer asks a question, the likelihood that someone will answer depends massively on the amount of people in the room. If you only have two people in the room, it's likely that they'll both offer an answer - that's 100% of people responding. If there are ten people in the room, 3 might offer an answer. Your response rate is down to 30%. If it's a room of fifty, again 5 may answer - down to 10%.
In the case of someone being attacked, the risks are higher - you don't just risk public humiliation and embarrassment, you also risk serious injury. So the number of people willing to get involved plummets.

Plenty of people will be able to tell you stories of being mugged or attacked on busy streets with people just walking on. They pretend they didn't notice and assume/hope that someone else will save the person.

Sangre

I'd rather not get a bottle to the face for my own stuff let alone someone elses.

jimi_t

Slow Motion wrote:

And that kind of head in the sand attitude is what encourages these scumbags to keep doing what they do ! Sure lets steal a purse nobody will stop us ! My 2 c :rolleyes:

Go on, throw a bit more cynicism and bravado in. You ever had a switchblade or syringe held up to you in a mugging? You ever even seen so much as an altercation where someone pulled a knife?

It's not worth it, it just isn't. Nevermind your own safety, it's incredibly selfish to put the safety of others at stake. If it was assault or rape or similar that would be one thing, but getting Aids or being killed for the sake of money? Explain to me how it's worth it. It's not going to cure the problems of society - and whats going to happen to the OP if he bumps into any of that gang again in different circumstances. Stumbling down Leeson street some night after the pub, one of them happens to notice him - and thats that.

The only way this kind of attitude will change is the instigation of a 'good samaritan' legislation similar to the one in Germany, whereby witnesses to a crime who don't look the other way are liable to get prosecuted. This, in conjunction with a zero tolerance syringe/knife policy, is a realistic option. Ponitifcating on an internet forum about what you would hypothetically do in the same situation is not.

GospelGroupie

LundiMardi wrote:

what's a gouger?

Slang for a thug. It's derived from "to gouge the eye out with ones thumb/finger".
In other words, just animals who will fight in what ever way they need to win.
Scumbags would be a suitable synonym.

grahamo

Well done to the OP. Give everyone without a criminal record a firearms licence and the scumbags will stop robbing fairly sharpish!

Sangre

because thats worked so well for crime in america?

jimi_t

Sangre wrote:

because thats worked so well for crime in america?

You're not going to get informed, rationale debate on a topic like this - especially given that the majority of posters are male and in the 18-30 age group.

GospelGroupie

jimi_t wrote:

If it was assault or rape or similar that would be one thing, but getting Aids or being killed for the sake of money?

Well, it was assault. When the scumbag ran out the door I would have been happy to let them go and perhaps follow from a distance and notify the Airport Police at some point. Unfortunately, the Spanish girl really wanted her purse back. I've no idea what was in it or whether she just liked the purse, but when she pursued the thief she was attacked by the gang. I was not going to stand back to let that happen. She could have been seriously wounded if everyone just stood back and let them all take her on.

Is that what you want, Jimi_t?

GospelGroupie

grahamo wrote:

Well done to the OP. Give everyone without a criminal record a firearms licence and the scumbags will stop robbing fairly sharpish!

Again, I don't think that's the answer. It would only make these situations even more dangerous. The only people who I'd like to see carry guns are the people who want least to use them.

I know gardaí who wouldn't want to carry arms for fear of having to use them. Who would want to kill anybody?

TheNog

GospelGroupie wrote:

I know gardaí who wouldn't want to carry arms for fear of having to use them. Who would want to kill anybody?

Thats true. Thats why the uniformed guards are not armed cos they don;t want to be. Those that do carry firearms do so in case they need to save a life by taking one.

imeatingchips

jimi_t wrote:

While I'm all for chivalry and bravery like that, what you did was nothing short of retarded.

I'm sorry, it's hard for me to say, but thats the truth.

What if one of them had pulled a knife or a syringe - very likely that they had a concealed weapon given that they were willing to steal a purse and then deny it on a crowded bus.

You were willing to put your own life and the life of at least three innocent bystanders at serious risk for what, some money? I mean, it really shouldn't have happened - especially in the way it did happen - and fair play for you for doing what you thought was right, but it really REALLY wasn't worth it.

Just my 2c

If scumbags were afraid that everyone and anyone would stand up for whichever vulnerable person they picked on then they'd do it a lot less.

Your attitide serves an indivaidual well in the shortterm but serves everyone badly in the long term.

BTW, well done OP. As the old saying goes "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing".

ambro25

jimi_t wrote:

The only way this kind of attitude will change is the instigation of a 'good samaritan' legislation similar to the one in Germany, whereby witnesses to a crime who don't look the other way are liable to get prosecuted. This, in conjunction with a zero tolerance syringe/knife policy, is a realistic option. Ponitifcating on an internet forum about what you would hypothetically do in the same situation is not.

Surely you meant: "whereby witnesses to a crime who ____ look the other way are liable to get prosecuted.", similar in scope and effect to the "délit de non-assistance à personne en danger" charge in France?

Orange69

GospelGroupie wrote:

Again, I don't think that's the answer. It would only make these situations even more dangerous. The only people who I'd like to see carry guns are the people who want least to use them.

I know gardaí who wouldn't want to carry arms for fear of having to use them. Who would want to kill anybody?

I would gladly use a firearm on some scummer who was mugging me/ someone else..

If you push all the pc ****e aside i think most people would feel little sympathy for these people..

On a more moderate note, pepper spray should be legalized, yes the scum would have it too but it would at least give people like that spanish girl a fighting chance..

Who wouldn't like to pepper spray some scumbag?

EDIT: Bravo OP, if only there was more like you!

Slow Motion

jimi_t wrote:

Go on, throw a bit more cynicism and bravado in. You ever had a switchblade or syringe held up to you in a mugging? You ever even seen so much as an altercation where someone pulled a knife?

It's not worth it, it just isn't. Nevermind your own safety, it's incredibly selfish to put the safety of others at stake. If it was assault or rape or similar that would be one thing, but getting Aids or being killed for the sake of money? Explain to me how it's worth it. It's not going to cure the problems of society - and whats going to happen to the OP if he bumps into any of that gang again in different circumstances. Stumbling down Leeson street some night after the pub, one of them happens to notice him - and thats that.

The only way this kind of attitude will change is the instigation of a 'good samaritan' legislation similar to the one in Germany, whereby witnesses to a crime who don't look the other way are liable to get prosecuted. This, in conjunction with a zero tolerance syringe/knife policy, is a realistic option. Ponitifcating on an internet forum about what you would hypothetically do in the same situation is not.

Yes I have had a knife pulled on me, I am from Finglas and spent half my life growing up in Ballymun, I was a teacher there for several years ! As for cynicism ? Advocating the don't get involved attidude is criminally cynical IMO, Pontificating ? No I was expressing an opinion and replying to a post !

jimi_t

GospelGroupie wrote:

Is that what you want, Jimi_t?

Obviously not, there's no need to be pedantic. I can assure you, there's no fun in playing the devils advocate in a matter that seems as black and white as this - I'm just being realistic based on my own experiences and those I've heard. I'm a big guy, and not afraid of a fight - I've been barred from one of the larger nightclubs in dublin for "being involved" in a 6 on 1 fight that I stepped in on; the few boards users who know me will testify to this. That said, in a group situation where some scum were obviously willing to risk anything for the sake of a few euro, I would be willing to risk nothing.

GospelGroupie

The easy availability of pepper-spray and/or stun-guns would be tragic! I could easily see scumbags like these spray the girl, take the purse and just swagger off the bus at leisure. Getting sprayed in the face is not nice and nobody would be inclined to butt in and "be a hero" if it means the risk of getting sprayed by the gougers themselves. It brings the violence to another level altogether.

GospelGroupie

jimi_t wrote:

I'm a big guy, and not afraid of a fight - I've been barred from one of the larger nightclubs in dublin for "being involved" in a 6 on 1 fight that I stepped in on; the few boards users who know me will testify to this.

I see. Sorry for prejudging you there.

Orange69

GospelGroupie wrote:

The easy availability of pepper-spray and/or stun-guns would be tragic! I could easily see scumbags like these spray the girl, take the purse and just swagger off the bus at leisure. Getting sprayed in the face is not nice and nobody would be inclined to butt in and "be a hero" if it means the risk of getting sprayed by the gougers themselves. It brings the violence to another level altogether.

With that logic they could just punch her in the face a couple of times and do the same..

I think a lot more people would be willing to but in if they knew that a quick surprise spray would disable the scummer..

I dunno about you but i think most people woule like to take their safety into their own hands..

ambro25

Well, you can't use a firearm in your home, for which you have a permit and for which there is no need to have conceal carry permit (unless extreme circumstances - and even then only after the judge/jury lets you off).

So what would such conceal carry permit achieve? At best, precisely zilch. At worst, a mass shot-out à la Réservoir Dogs with countless bystanders caught in the cross-fire.

Pepper spray is the same story - what if the perp is allergic or has bad asthma? I'm not saying 'poor him' at all (good riddance TBH), but I'm saying 'poor victim': the guy/gal who used the pepper spray and killed the guy - and gets done for it of course. Moreover, there's two big unknowns once you legalise spray/stun guns:

i) your lone self with pepper spray vs a gang of 4 each with pepper spray? Why, don't you look fresh once you get your lacrymo out of your pocket? :rolleyes:
ii) mugger likely to 'open fire' first to disable the victim (preemptive strike) and reduce risk to him that much further.

Mass protest (intimidation by numbers) would have been the most appropriate solution in the OP's case - and any similar case. Unfortunately, group dynamic as outlined by Seamus works against such behaviour. Of coure, once weapons (any type) are produced, just let the f*ckers run. "He who lives by the sword..." and all that, anyway.

Orange69

ambro25 wrote:

Pepper spray is the same story - what if the perp is allergic or has bad asthma? I'm not saying 'poor him' at all (good riddance TBH), but I'm saying 'poor victim': the guy/gal who used the pepper spray and killed the guy - and gets done for it of course.

That very much an edge case though and would be impossible to get a conviction in court.. imo..

cson

If a normal person could freely get firearms in this country then so could the scumbags. Now, who do you think would be more laissez faire in using them?

Sure some knackers tried to run down cops at a checkpoint a while back, if they had had firearms what would have happened?

Hail 2 Da Chimp

Fair play to you OP, you deffinatly did the right thing, unfortunatly these days no good deed goes unpunished...

ambro25

Orange69 wrote:

That very much an edge case though and would be impossible to get a conviction in court.. imo..

Well.... that's just the thing, innit? Not a slight on you or getting at you in any way here, but let's see how much your opinion carries/counts, once the vic is remanded just for defending him/herself: anyway you look at it, you'd be looking at manslaughter.

You've got to figure something else in the whole equation - 'tis alright for a strapping (or non-strapping) young lad in his late teens/early twenties to have at it with the perps. But you take your average middle-aged commuter with a wife/husband and kids for who he/she has to provide, and that increasing level of responsibilities with age and families puts a whole new spin on the whole issue. I'm not defending or advocating passivity, but I'm firmly siding with jimmy_t here - put things in perspective. I certainly commend the OP for helping out as and when the vic started being assaulted, which is altogether a different situation from 'just' a non-violent mugging.

i71jskz5xu42pb

Sangre wrote:

I'd rather not get a bottle to the face for my own stuff let alone someone elses.

I don't think it's about the "stuff" per se. Sure a purse, mp3 player or phone are probably no big loss in the greater scheme of things. It's about the right to have stuff and to be able to carry it around without being accosted. Sure there are people who think even that is not worth the risk. But others think we should have this right and are prepared to fight for it (risky and all as that might be).