My beautiful Hijab: The Flower and The Pearl

Wibbs

the_new_mr wrote:

You might think that the hijab over sexualises (is that a word?) a woman but I would have to disagree with you. God knows that women are a thing of beauty and I'd have to say that the idea of a woman's sexuality being underlined by the hijab is more the outlook of a non-Muslim with misconceptions. Especially because one of those misconceptions is that people think Muslim men are all sex crazed maniacs who look at women as property to do with as they please. That all plays into the incorrect outlook.

Not at all. It doesn't sexualise a woman in the same way as a string bikini, but it does sexualise them to the extent that it promotes the idea that a woman who is exposed is a sexual being and that is too powerful and provocative to the men in the society and as such has to be hidden. That old idea about the Victorian men being turned on by the sight of an ankle. To cover something does sexualise it to a greater or lesser extent. With even the extreme of very provocative "western" sexualised dress, what is revealed is far less important than what isn't.

As a slight aside, I have also known too many Muslim men who regard non covered women as less than pure. The very fact that Hijab is regarded as the high point will naturally cause some to think that any less is considered impure, even if they know very little about the woman's character. That's as bad as somebody assuming just because a woman wears the veil she is oppressed.

I think that if you look at it as an expression of modesty then you'll see things differently.

What is modesty? What does that mean? It basically means covering up the sexuality and sexual signals of someone. That varies from society to society. Some Amazonian tribeswomen to both our eyes would appear to be pretty much naked except for a small belt. The removal of that belt would be very immodest for them. the removal of the belt would sexualise them in the eyes of men. The belt would only be removed in the presence of other women or their husbands.

Also as I pointed out females of a non sexual age are not required to wear hijab(some do of course). What does that tell us? Again it tells us that the outward sexuality/beauty of women is what needs to be covered up.

Why? Is it not the male reaction to such a thing that is considered the issue? If it wasn't, women would have to covered up equally in the presence of other women, but clearly they're not. They also aren't required to be covered up with close family members who are male. Again why not? Because their sexuality is not an issue within those groups. If the hijab had little to do with sexuality, then they would have to be equally modest with those groups as they are with the rest of the world at large. That to me is suggesting the idea that men can be uncontrollable if exposed to the sight of such things.

And, even though it's off-topic, I too am appalled by the way little girls are going over board with the dodgy clothes etc. It's been getting worse and worse over the years and now it's just plain ridiculous. Don't know how the parents let it happen really. It's really society's fault. Plus, it's bad for the girls' self-confidence and self-esteem if they feel that the only way to be respected and attractive is to wear clothes like Britney Spears & Co.

OT or not, I think we all agree on this one. Makes a nice change

Medina

Wibbs wrote:

Why? Is it not the male reaction to such a thing that is considered the issue?

I think this is probably the crux of the issue and also of the misunderstanding to be honest.

To my mind, yes the male reaction is an issue. But its not the entire issue.
ok so first a girl who is uncovered may (I stress may as I dont want to generalise all women) be more concerned about appearance than a girl who is covered. I mean we all have a little vanity, but as girls who practise Islam in this respect do not wear publicly either revealing clothing, make up, perfume or even pluck their eyebrows, I think being covered protects us women from ourselves on many levels.

Note that these are my personal feelings on the matter and are when I say 'us' I do not mean all Muslimas but a large number in general.

It protects us from our vanity becoming all encompassing.
It many ways it protects us from losing self-confidence with regard to looks as we don't have to be worried about it in public and don't feel this competitiveness or as lesser beings because we don't conform to the 'sexy beautiful woman' image.
It protects us from being sleazed over ...lets face it, once you're uncovered men are more likely to look and you have no control over who is gazing at you, and while women may be flattered that the 'hot stuff' from the office is looking their way they may be repulsed by the 'unattractive' guy looking at them.

A good example of this happened a few weeks ago in my office. A friend of mine was wearing a see-through white top with a white bra underneath and very low neckline so you could see her cleavage. We were talking about hijab and she said to me that her opinon is 'If you've got it, flaunt it'. I said ok, 'well how do you feel then about our boss (a middle aged, slightly balding guy) looking at your breasts?' She just said 'Ugh!!!'. Well I said, you can't choose who you flaunt it to then and you have to accept all types of guys perving on you.


And although yes being uncovered can provoke a negative male reaction or whatever, if a woman is happy to see a man gazing at her in 'that' way then she will probably encourage him. Either by flirting or staring back or whatever.
Within male/female relations it is mostly men who are the initiators and women who are the responders/encouragers. So we are also causing sin on ourselves by deliberately becoming sexually available in our body language etc.

Hijab prevents this mostly (but admittedly not always) because the man won't even look at the girl like that and so she won't flirt with him.

At the end of the day, the responsibility however is NOT purely on the woman to stop all this. Both men and women have to do their fair share. Women are required to wear loose clothing and hijab. Men are asked to wear beards and to lower their gaze.

And in truth, men have a much harder time resisting sexual impulses than women. I mean teenage boys versus teenage girls? Men are definitely more visual creatures while women are more emotional.

So to me it makes perfect sense and I feel I am protecting myself by wearing hijab, not just making it easy for guys to stay out of sin. That is just a by-product in my opinion.

the_new_mr

Well, as I was reading Wibbs' post, I was thinking to myself "I'll say that to that and this to this...." but, after reading Medina's post, I don't have to really say anything at all Only a woman can really express the viewpoint of a woman in this regards. Masha Allah (it is as God wills), your understanding of the hijab is excellent Medina. May God bless you and affirm your belief.

On a quick side note, I know what you're trying to say about modesty and so on Wibbs and that it's all relative.

I think Medina's example of her co-worker is very interesting. She clearly knows what she's doing and why she's doing it but is uncomfortable with certain people looking at her.

Anyway, I think I'd just like to underline the point that Medina was making that it's not just about stopping the men from sinning and looking and, as Medina pointed out, men are told to lower their gaze. It's also about modesty... which is the opposite of vanity.

Wibbs wrote:

As a slight aside, I have also known too many Muslim men who regard non covered women as less than pure. The very fact that Hijab is regarded as the high point will naturally cause some to think that any less is considered impure, even if they know very little about the woman's character. That's as bad as somebody assuming just because a woman wears the veil she is oppressed.

I'll say this: I think that wearing the hijab is the right thing to do but it's not right to say that a women who doesn't wear it is impure. She may be better. Only God knows. I guess you could say that wearing the hijab improves your position (if that makes sense?).

Anyway, I've rambled on too much. Think Medina's post covered things nicely really.

Wibbs wrote:

OT or not, I think we all agree on this one. Makes a nice change

Doesn't it?

Bottle_of_Smoke

The story's a bit biased & anti-west.

Medina wrote:

Human beings deal with us carelessly; they slight us. They don't grow us for our sake but to get pleasure from our fragrance and beautiful appearance. They throw us on the street or in the garbage can after we are dispossessed of the most valuable properties; brilliance and fragrance.

This piece (to me anyway) is suggesting Western men only have women around to have sex with while they're young & supple.... then it's divorce time when the lady gains some weight/wrinkles. Which is utter tripe because most men here stay with their wives until they die.

You might be astounded to know that the further I lay, the more beautiful and brilliant I become. That's what upraises my value in their thought. I live in a thick shell isolated in the dark seas.

To be honest I've never known a Muslim couple, have no experience of the dating culture among Muslims either. However from what I've known of Men I'd be somewhat sceptical of this.

This aside I quite like the idea of hijab. I think the way western women dress is often very smutty/tacky. If I was to assert this opinion in work everyone would say I'm a sexist prick.

I'm not going to lie I think the niqaab is appalling & nothing but a tool of opression. Same for Burqas However I can see why Islamic women like headscarves & "modest" dress. One of my friends won't cross the road to go to the shop without washing her hair & putting on make up. (That's genuinely not a lie)

I think headscarves look pretty refreshing compared to the way western women put so much effort into themselves. I had to do a project in college(on pork sausages ironically enough) with an Iranian girl, even though she was quite pretty & I got on well with her there was just no sexual tension between us. Could of been because I knew she was a Muslim (not that that's a problem for me but I know her rules) but it may have been solely because of the headscarve. Made things much more relaxed.

Reminds me of the way the rocker girls in school were more attractive than the fake tan girls. Not that they were aiming for modesty, just being themselves rather than trying to impress others

At the same time I'm really attacted to girls with nice/cool hair. It's a tough call

the_new_mr

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

The story's a bit biased & anti-west.

Actually, it is a little biased and perhaps a bit unfair in that regard but, on the whole, I liked it a lot and a lot of it is very true. Even if a lot of men stay with their wives there are still a lot who drop their wife for a younger mistress. It happens.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

To be honest I've never known a Muslim couple, have no experience of the dating culture among Muslims either. However from what I've known of Men I'd be somewhat sceptical of this.

This is actually somewhat true. The purer a woman has been kept, the more attractive the idea is to a man considering marrying her. I've seen it myself.

As for the niqaab, I personally don't mind it. I don't think it's a religious requirement though either. Ali Gomaa (the mufti of Egypt) said recently enough that the niqaab is bad for the society in that it takes away the tool by which a woman interacts with her society (her face). And he's not one of those scholars that's a bit dodgy either. Most people (all I know) respect Ali Gomaa and his opinions.

Bottle_of_Smoke

the_new_mr wrote:

Actually, it is a little biased and perhaps a bit unfair in that regard but, on the whole, I liked it a lot and a lot of it is very true. Even if a lot of men stay with their wives there are still a lot who drop their wife for a younger mistress. It happens.

Of course but I'm sure there's Muslims who do this too. Maybe moreso Muslims living in western countries. So although this might be an argument for hijab, it doesn't much help the cheater's wife.

This is actually somewhat true. The purer a woman has been kept, the more attractive the idea is to a man considering marrying her. I've seen it myself.

Yes would agree. this thread is a good example, scratch what I posted there. I completely misunderstood the part I quoted.

As for the niqaab, I personally don't mind it. I don't think it's a religious requirement though either. Ali Gomaa (the mufti of Egypt) said recently enough that the niqaab is bad for the society in that it takes away the tool by which a woman interacts with her society (her face). And he's not one of those scholars that's a bit dodgy either. Most people (all I know) respect Ali Gomaa and his opinions.

Yeah remember reading that, was very impressed with him coming out with that.

the_new_mr

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

Of course but I'm sure there's Muslims who do this too. Maybe moreso Muslims living in western countries.

Well, of course there are Muslims that do this also and I'm certainly not defending them either but, statistically speaking anyway, more affairs tend to go on in the west. I think that if women are wearing hijab then the likelihood of them getting involved in an affair is much less. In this regard, the hijab works even as a protection against yourself as it can remind you of God and help you to be pious and help keep you away from sin.