"Scumbag" is a label, and it makes what it tags so.

talkingclock

lecomte wrote:

You even use the pronoun "it" when referring to actual people. Are you not aware of the power of language or what?

Good lord! You are doing this on purpose, don't you?! :mad:

lecomte

talkingclock wrote:

Good lord! You are doing this on purpose, don't you?! :mad:

Sorry, didn't realise English wasn't your first language until now. You're level is quite high. Where are you from?

And no, I am not doing anything on purpose, I simply believe that language is extraordinarily powerful and the depersonalising people by referring to a person as "it" makes it easy to dismiss them without actually considering them as human beings with mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers just like you.

P.

Karmafaerie

lecomte wrote:

Sorry, didn't realise English wasn't your first language until now. You're level is quite high. Where are you from?

And no, I am not doing anything on purpose, I simply believe that language is extraordinarily powerful and the depersonalising people by referring to a person as "it" makes it easy to dismiss them without actually considering them as human beings with mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers just like you.

P.

No need to get personal.
As I'm sure you saw with Krudler, we try to be civil here.

BTW, you are still yet to answer any of the points I put towards you.

sioda

This person is obviously a troll with a large chip on their shoulder lets leave this thread die

billy the squid

lecomte wrote:

Sorry, didn't realise English wasn't your first language until now. You're level is quite high. Where are you from?

And no, I am not doing anything on purpose, I simply believe that language is extraordinarily powerful and the depersonalising people by referring to a person as "it" makes it easy to dismiss them without actually considering them as human beings with mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers just like you.

P.

Leconte, such personal swipes are not tolerated here,, as you are new here I will give you the benefit of the doubt and a second chance.

please take time out to read the charter sticky at the top of the forum.

There will be no more warnings. hotheadedness and abuse from anyone arising out of this thread will result in slappings (proverbial ones)

cooperguy

lecomte wrote:

I believe "naive" is a word people give to a certain kind of courage in order to discredit it, that it might not one day come to be expected of them.

To follow your point farther down the road you have set out on, if they're african and they're playing basket-ball and looking angry then it's easier to call them "n***ers". It's easier isn't it? Just deal with it.

No niave is a word used to describe a person or argument that takes an extemely simplistic, idealistic view of a situation and while your post has some validity niave is definatly a term that applies. Everybody has a certain amount of prejudice and a certain amount of it is a good thing. It is needed to ensure that you avoid dangerous situations. If you see somebody who looks like a scumbag then you have to be wary or you risk getting hurt/loosing money. And a one word definition of that person is the easiest way of describing them.

Which brings me on to my next point. No you would not use the word n***ers. If you simply want a quick label to describe the black person without goin over and askin the name then they are "Black" (Simple, effective and perfectly acceptable) If by looking angry you are trying to say they look a little like a scumbag then you can call them a scumbag. You dont have to be white to be a scumbag.

lecomte

billy the squid wrote:

Leconte, such personal swipes are not tolerated here,, as you are new here I will give you the benefit of the doubt and a second chance.

please take time out to read the charter sticky at the top of the forum.

There will be no more warnings. hotheadedness and abuse from anyone arising out of this thread will result in slappings (proverbial ones)

I really appreciate that and have to say that you have completely misunderstood my intention.

I teach English and genuinely believe the chap in question is a foreign national and intended to compliment him on his level of English. I'd wager he is.

I was banging on about pronouns before and when I realised that the guy didn't have English as his first language, I put the quote that was misinterpreted by many, forward by way of apology.

I think there is a little hot-headedness with regard to expecting abuse from people whose opinions differ from others here, and I request that you read back over the threads and see that I was sincere, and had no desire to offend the person in question. If indeed the person (forgotten the name) is not from another country, I am sorry for the offence caused, it was totally unintentional.

lecomte

cooperguy wrote:

No niave is a word used to describe a person or argument that takes an extemely simplistic, idealistic view of a situation and while your post has some validity niave is definatly a term that applies. Everybody has a certain amount of prejudice and a certain amount of it is a good thing. It is needed to ensure that you avoid dangerous situations. If you see somebody who looks like a scumbag then you have to be wary or you risk getting hurt/loosing money. And a one word definition of that person is the easiest way of describing them.

Which brings me on to my next point. No you would not use the word n***ers. If you simply want a quick label to describe the black person without goin over and askin the name then they are "Black" (Simple, effective and perfectly acceptable) If by looking angry you are trying to say they look a little like a scumbag then you can call them a scumbag. You dont have to be white to be a scumbag.

I did not definitively say what the word "naive" meant, what I stated was my belief about how people use the word. I stand by that thought. I really am experiencing that people here are not thinking about what they are replying to before they reply. What's the point in having a dialogue if you're not going to take the time to consider what the other party says?

So many who fought so hard and fight so hard today for the simplistic ideals of goodness, compassion and fairness are labelled naive and unrealistic, I believe, because others don't want to subscribe to that as it is just too challenging.

Now, I don't know if you've ever spent time in the states or not, but I promise you, the culture there will allow a person walking by a group of young, angry black people and they will be called "n*****" and it is accepted. The one-word definition that we use for people on the margins of our society may be a different one, but I promise you, it has the same effect. To know that the person looking at you thinks ill of you because of the way you dress and where you're from and applies a label to you as a result will generate that anger you see about them, so you call them "scum-bag" and the cycle circles all the more viciously.

Now, that's just what I believe. It's my truth, it is what is so for me, and I think it's right. You may not. Entirely up to you. I don't think the argument I am making is weak, however, and there is a fair bit of research and study done in this vein to back up my contention.

lecomte

sioda wrote:

This person is obviously a troll with a large chip on their shoulder lets leave this thread die

If you think I am a troll for a perceived slight at someone, what makes you less of a troll for having a go at me?

Do you have anything to say on the subject of the thread?

lecomte

Karmafaerie wrote:

What I was referring to with my point on enforced perception is what you repeated again in you second last line above.



That is a load of crap.
Every person on the planet could call me a scumbag, and it wouldn't make me go out and rob old ladies, or break into shops.

I think it would make you very angry at the other people on the planet, and you would find a way to lash out, maybe robbing old ladies, but something nasty.

How about you?
I'm guessing that you wouldn't consider yourself to be one.
If enough people call you one, would you shoot, or stab somebody?

I would ritually humiliate them with my superior intellect and razor-sharp wit. Different tool-box, ugly, negative outcome all the same.

(I'm not saying that every one from these areas does do this, just to be clear!;) )

My point about disadvantaged areas is that it is not an excuse, but to say that somewhere like Moyross has the same amenities as Castletroy for instance is very naive.

I just said that I didn't consider areas that have libraries, running water, community centres etc. to be "disadvantaged".

I was born in Moyross, and although my parents moved in order to try and give my siblings and me a better life, I spent most of my youth hanging out with friends in St Mary's Park.
There is nothing to do there, but play in one or two empty fields.
Southill has the slight exception of having a swimming pool!

There are kick-boxing clubs, tennis camps in the summer, soccer clubs, quite a few literacy and art programmes, and a lot of volunteer work undertaken by the church.

It's as I've said here before, if you give young children nothing to do but throw stones at cars, they'll throw stones at cars!

Yup. And if you call them scum-bags, they'll throw stones at you.

These places need to give the kids something to do besides cause trouble.

I agree.

I can understand where you're coming from.
Nearly all people from these areas, are far from scumbags.
I have plenty of friends who a lot of people would mistakenly cross the road rather than passing. But that's life, because life is all about perception.

If people see a load of kids wearing black, and face paint, they're going to try and label them.
They're going to assume that they're into death metal, and sacrificing cats!:p

It doesn't mean it's true, but that's what's been happening for Milena!
It's life!!!

Again, I can understand what you're saying, and people do over react when seeing somebody who thinks that "Nike" is a way of life, but I think that if you seriously believe that simply not assuming the worst will solve the problem, you need to get out more.
All that that would mean is that the real scum would find it that much easier to f**k people over, and the honest people who aren't to blame, would be painted with the same brush.

If peoples reactions bother you, then it's either something you accept, or you change.

That's what I'm about.

If I wear a Liverpool jersey, it's fair to assume that I support Liverpool.
Even Gandhi would agree with that!:D

If you wear a liverpool jersey, (as I do) then you choose to support a club, and you declare it. There is no "scum-bag" club. Just a set of clothes that work in some places and some that don't. Have a stroll about Moyross or Southill in a three piece suit and a fob-watch and see how far you get.

As I said, if you come from a place where everyone wears blue, when you choose to step out your front door covered in yellow, you're going to hear all about it. This is the uniformity that our society demands of us in order to fit in. It is far from a choice such as choosing a team to shout for.

I Replied to other points up there, but they got lost in the italics. Sorry, wanted to address what you said a point at a time and didn't lay it out correctly.

I also felt I replied to what you had to say in my response to others who made much the same points, but you did take the time, so I took it there to write back.

Thanks for your input.

billy the squid

Simple definition of a scumbag

A person who makes monetary profit, or takes pleasure in, causing misfortune to others.

His attire is irrelavent.

Colin Mac

There's a saying - If it Looks Like a Duck and it Quacks Like a Duck, then it's Probably a Duck.

talkingclock

Or a sensible chicken from a disadvantaged area with a speech disorder.

sioda

After reading and re reading this entire thread I still feel it is an attempt at Trolling but to give my opinion.

Quote : If it looks like scum and it acts like scum then there is a good chance that it is scum.. end of..

The above quote for me says it all. I also agree with the idea that the hat tracksuit cap and OTT jewellry has become a uniform for your modern troublemaker.

The title scumbag as defined by Billy

A person who makes monetary profit, or takes pleasure in, causing misfortune to others.

imo really works and can be aimed at any group of People from any walk and area of life.

Lecomte you keep asking for solutions how about throwing some up yourself.

Karmafaerie for me has some great points that you cant just throw facilities at the disenfranchised and expect them to go WOO HOO life is good.

To fix the situation I feel that the key lies in education not just of the people labelled as Scumbags but of the people (decision makers) outside these areas to stop fixing the houses and paying Dole to people who are just abusing the system

Karmafaerie

Lecomte, if you're going to try and respond to every point that somebody makes directly underneath, then it's common courtesy to differentiate your text to theres!

I'm way too disinterested to try and make sense of that quote and response job.
So in future, for simplicity's sake, why don't you use some of that "superior intellect and razor sharp wit" of yours to either embolden your own writing, or even better changethecolour, or at the very least a bit of italics wouldn't go astray.

Then I may try and make some sense of what you just wrote,

lecomte

sioda wrote:

After reading and re reading this entire thread I still feel it is an attempt at Trolling but to give my opinion.

Quote : If it looks like scum and it acts like scum then there is a good chance that it is scum.. end of..

The above quote for me says it all. I also agree with the idea that the hat tracksuit cap and OTT jewellry has become a uniform for your modern troublemaker.

The title scumbag as defined by Billy

A person who makes monetary profit, or takes pleasure in, causing misfortune to others.

imo really works and can be aimed at any group of People from any walk and area of life.

Lecomte you keep asking for solutions how about throwing some up yourself.

Karmafaerie for me has some great points that you cant just throw facilities at the disenfranchised and expect them to go WOO HOO life is good.

To fix the situation I feel that the key lies in education not just of the people labelled as Scumbags but of the people (decision makers) outside these areas to stop fixing the houses and paying Dole to people who are just abusing the system

What I keep asking for is for people to actually read what they are responding to before they write, adn what I originally asked for was for people to stop using the word "scumbag" as though willies were nillies because I think it causes more problems than it solves. My solution? Well, I don't use the word. And I ask others not to.

lecomte

Karmafaerie wrote:

Lecomte, if you're going to try and respond to every point that somebody makes directly underneath, then it's common courtesy to differentiate your text to theres!

I'm way too disinterested to try and make sense of that quote and response job.
So in future, for simplicity's sake, why don't you use some of that "superior intellect and razor sharp wit" of yours to either embolden your own writing, or even better changethecolour, or at the very least a bit of italics wouldn't go astray.

Then I may try and make some sense of what you just wrote,

If you can't tell the difference between what you wrote and and what another person wrote without a great level of strain for yourself, I'd start to worry.

In future, I certainly will make my best effort to differentiate.

lecomte

Colin Mac wrote:

There's a saying - If it Looks Like a Duck and it Quacks Like a Duck, then it's Probably a Duck.

Quite a few ducks have thought the same thing in the past to their detriment.

ninty9er

Can we lock this one up Squid; it's going absolutely nowhere!!!

talkingclock

I think he's just trolling. Let's have it locked.

krudler

scumbag is a term bandied around willie nillie (whoever that is), "scobe" is a much more user friendly name

in fairness not everyone who wear tracksuits when theyre not jogging is a scumbag and they shouldnt be all thrown in with the ones who are but like twas said earlier if it looks like a duck....

on a side note a few weeks ago in town a friend of mine and I wandered across a couple having an argument when out of nowhere the guy just punched the woman right in the face and walked off,as a few people rushed over to her to see if she was ok a bunch of tracksuit wearing teens wandered past and asked what happened,on hearing what had occured one of them replied "a batin's too good for that scumbaaaag!"

oh.the.irony.

Karmafaerie

lecomte wrote:

If you can't tell the difference between what you wrote and and what another person wrote without a great level of strain for yourself, I'd start to worry.

In future, I certainly will make my best effort to differentiate.

I'm sorry, I didn't know that common courtesy was too much to ask for.
Of course the irony of you asking that people in general be more courteous to perceived scumbags, while throwing a mini hissyfit when you are asked the same shouldn't be lost on somebody of your wit and intellect now should it.

Mr, Pot, there's a phone call her for you from a Mr. Kettle.
He wants to talk to you about the colour black or something!;)

ninty9er

Karmafaerie wrote:

I'm sorry, I didn't know that common courtesy was too much to ask for.
Of course the irony of you asking that people in general be more courteous to perceived scumbags, while throwing a mini hissyfit when you are asked the same shouldn't be lost on somebody of your wit and intellect now should it.

Mr, Pot, there's a phone call her for you from a Mr. Kettle.
He wants to talk to you about the colour black or something!;)

post of the thread so far

lecomte

ninty9er wrote:

Can we lock this one up Squid; it's going absolutely nowhere!!!

If more people made more of an effort to actually address the points raised in the issue instead of just commenting it was going nowhere, it might go somewhere.

And if "trolling" constitutes taking a stand for something you believe in and looking to stimulate dialogue around it then that is exactly what I am doing.

I have an idea ye might think it means something different though.

lecomte

Karmafaerie wrote:

I'm sorry, I didn't know that common courtesy was too much to ask for.
Of course the irony of you asking that people in general be more courteous to perceived scumbags, while throwing a mini hissyfit when you are asked the same shouldn't be lost on somebody of your wit and intellect now should it.

Mr, Pot, there's a phone call her for you from a Mr. Kettle.
He wants to talk to you about the colour black or something!;)

You know what? I actually acknowledged that I hadn't scripted my reply correctly and apologised. While it may not be common, I would say that that constitutes courtesy. To then be told that time will not be taken to look at what I took time to consider and post because it caused you difficulty to pick out your words from mine as they were in the same font...well, it's kind of ignorant in my book. And stupid. But that's just my book, and maybe I'm the only one who likes that kind of a read.

I am also curious as to what constitutes a "hissy-fit" in your world.

Yeah, this thread died, but it died because a bunch of people here were challenged, and shut down when it happened instead of embracing it and trying to engage in an actual dialogue. All it descended into was nit-pickery and one-upman-ship. It's disappointing, but that will not stop me from what I'm at.

Mr. th Squid, shut down away if no-one should address the points raised. Thank you.

Karmafaerie

lecomte wrote:

You know what? I actually acknowledged that I hadn't scripted my reply correctly and apologised. While it may not be common, I would say that that constitutes courtesy. To then be told that time will not be taken to look at what I took time to consider and post because it caused you difficulty to pick out your words from mine as they were in the same font...well, it's kind of ignorant in my book. And stupid. But that's just my book, and maybe I'm the only one who likes that kind of a read.

I am also curious as to what constitutes a "hissy-fit" in your world.

Yeah, this thread died, but it died because a bunch of people here were challenged, and shut down when it happened instead of embracing it and trying to engage in an actual dialogue. All it descended into was nit-pickery and one-upman-ship. It's disappointing, but that will not stop me from what I'm at.

Mr. th Squid, shut down away if no-one should address the points raised. Thank you.

I made a genuine request, and politely asked for you to differentiate your words from mine.
Not just for me, but for everybody who has, or may read this.
I also described and demonstrated a number of ways for you to do this.

You responded by insulting my intelligence.

lecomte wrote:

If you can't tell the difference between what you wrote and and what another person wrote without a great level of strain for yourself, I'd start to worry.

In future, I certainly will make my best effort to differentiate.

If that act could be visualised, you would find a picture of it next to the word "hissyfit" in a dictionary!

It's not simply about whether I can understand it or not.
There are a dozen or so other people posting in this thread, not to mention all the others just reading, that deserve the common courtesy of being able to follow your points, without having to go back a page, and read my original quote repeatedly every few seconds.

One thing I've noticed in the last few pages Lecomte, is that you come across as a very condescending person.
Maybe it's unintentional, but every time somebody questions you or pulls you on something, you insult them and put them down.
You then of course come out and say that you meant no insult, but that only works so many times, and you have done it at least twice in three pages already!

If your idea of apologising, is in telling me that I should worry about my mental state, then you you and I (as well as you and everyone else here it would seem) are on completely different wavelengths.

Now again in you last response, you alluded to me being both ignorant and stupid.

I have never once spoken harshly of, or too, you in this thread, and I have infact defended you when you were misquoted.
You on the other hand, have insulted me three times already.

You are sitting there asking everybody to be less judgemental, but as soon as everybody started disagreeing you got snide, un-courteous, and downright insulting.
A lot of what you said is valid, and a lot of the responses have been OTT and wrong.
But you have either ignored, or put down, every single well thought out response that has been made.

I was quite enjoying the discussion, as it's always nice to compare thoughts on something, so how about we ignore the semantics, and from now on try keep the thread on track.

But please, for the sake of peace, try and be less condescending (even if it's unintentional). It'll make the whole thread go more easily for everyone.;)

ninty9er

Condescending kinda comes with being an English teacher these days; so I wouldn't expect much Faerie.

Because, in essence, absolutely everybody disagreed with Lecomte; (s)he has decided that we are all anti-dialogue. The fact is that we entered into dialogue and the thread died, because on all counts, everyone else was wrong and (s)he was right.

Sound familiar???:p

talkingclock

Now back to the point. Scumbags. I think we were talking so far about the common male scumbag. But what about the female part of this species? How do we recognise a female scumbag? A scumbagga?

The common scumbagga vulgaris
- wears a tracksuit and is horizontally challenged or slutty and skinny
- has a croydon/council facelift
- appears always in a group with at least two fellow scumbaggas
- is always listening to shlte noise ("music") blaring from their mobile phone
- is (if in a group) singing along out of tune to this noise ("music") from the mobile
- is always shouting and screaming when communicating with other inbreeds of their species
- is when using the mobile phone for a call increasing the voice in a way that other people wouldn't need a phone to make conversation

Anything else I forgot to mention?

krudler

massive hoop earrings
horrific gold chains (bought from argos or that appalling jewellers in the williamscourt mall)
proably pushing a buggy
calls people a "haaaaannnnndddiiiicaaaaap" at every oppurtunity

ninty9er

krudler wrote:

massive hoop earrings
horrific gold chains (bought from argos or that appalling jewellers in the williamscourt mall)
proably pushing a buggy
calls people a "haaaaannnnndddiiiicaaaaap" at every oppurtunity

Generally sweats grease and vinegar from Fish and chip overdose