Do Trans and L.G.B really belong together

Filan

I write this as many are aware...as someone who is continuing to question (without any resolution in sight, One therapist said he think's I'm androgynous...almost Gender neutral) their Gender Identity. Throughout this process I have availed of some services which are primarily targeted at L.G.B....and while the Professionals were/are great...I felt quite a divide between myself and L.G.B. clients.. Thursday entered a gay bar for the first time ever...and well it was with intrepedidation..would a Gender Non-conformist fit and/or be made welcome in a Gay venue? Jury is still out...perhaps T is simply too small in most cities to stand alone...I suppose everyone, gay/bi/straight/trans/Gender Queer etc is different...there is warm and cold everywhere...but ultimately I wouldn't be writing this if I felt at home with L.G.B. services..to an extent I do...but to a considerable extent I don't .... I don't expect that there is many other Gender Digressors here to answer from my side of the fence..but interested in Gay opinions here...do you feel L.G.B and T share much common ground?

Boston

Nope.

Filan

Agreed, have the distinct feeling that they don't either...often operating together.. even though a lot of events such as 'pride' group them togther...both digressors from conventions...both are variants ...no in my heart don't feel I've that much in common with Gay people. A friend suggested that I would be better off in gay or bi venues as they would be less judgmental and more understanding of difference..are they?

Incidentally when people see me wearing make up..the first question that most ask me is "Are you gay?!"

Hmm_Messiah

what intrinsically defines transgender has nothing in common with what intrinsically "defines" LGB

what individuals may experience as trangendered or LGB - isolation, confusion, discrimination, ignorance etc are I'm sure shared to differing extents .

I don't understand terms such as gender transgressors, nor as a bi man do I feel like I digress from convention.

iosfra

"Isolation, confusion, discrimination, ignorance etc” is something everyone will experience in their life regardless of sexual orientation. I am a lesbian and know that I could in no way identify with what a transgender person might go through but I could say the exact same thing about other gay or straight people. Your sexuality is not a personality trait it is a minor factor in who you are as a whole.

It is just convenient to have L.G.B.T all together in one little box, boxes are comfortable and we should not question which one we are put in……

Rev Hellfire

Surely what defines Lesbian/Gay/Bisexuality is simply a sexual preference.

While transsexual/Transvestite behavior is a combination of gender identity dysfunction and/or fetish behavior. Either the sex/sexuality or medical/Psychology forums would be more appropriate locations for it. Certainly there's no reason not to put a request for a subforum under one of those if you think the interest would be there.

Hmm_Messiah

Rev Hellfire wrote:

Surely what defines Lesbian/Gay/Bisexuality is simply a sexual preference.

a preference? no.

Stark

Rev_Hellfire wrote:

While transsexual/Transvestite behavior is a combination of gender identity dysfunction and/or fetish behavior. Either the sex/sexuality or medical/Psychology forums would be more appropriate locations for it. Certainly there's no reason not to put a request for a subforum under one of those if you think the interest would be there.

According to the charter, the forum is for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender issues. Transvestitism has nothing to do with us.

Rev Hellfire

Stark wrote:

According to the charter, the forum is for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender issues. Transvestitism has nothing to do with us.

I simply included the transvestite in with the transgender since I was under the impression that they where commonly grouped together when referring to the T in LGBT.

Hmm_Messiah wrote:

a preference? no.

Would orientation be a better word? If not, how would you define it in a single sentence out of curiosity?

Hmm_Messiah

hi , the problem I have with preference is it suggests a choice or option.

Is heterosexuality a choice or option ? Orientation works for me .

A one sentence definition ?

A predominant sexual, physical and/or romantic/emotional attract to the same sex or either sex with or without corrsponding sexual behaviour

Stark

Rev_Hellfire wrote:

I was under the impression that they where commonly grouped together when referring to the T in LGBT.

Not the case at all.

Nevyn

It is the whole drag queen cross over tbh,
Sometimes a guy in a skirt is a hetrosexual guy who likes skirts,
sometimes a guy in a skirt is a homosexual guy who likes skirts,
somestimes a guy in a skirt is Trandgendered person who may or may not be hetrosexual or homosexual to thier inner gender.
It can be hard to tell.

moridin

But what about the women in trousers? We have nobody to champion their rights!

Stark

Well we're not adding the Power Dyke initials to our name...

Beruthiel

Hey! that's racialisim and stuff Stark!

Rev Hellfire

Stark wrote:

Not the case at all.

So it would seem here. Although wikiphedia seems to imply that transsexual is used as a more broad brush to cover transexuals, transvestites and genderqueers (never heard of them before) when applied to LGBT.

I like your definition Hmm_Messiah

Filan

The reality is that T is incredibly broad....as broad on it's own as L.G.B I'd say...the same people may exhibit the same outward T behaviour but for completely different reasons...Some men wear womens clothes for sexual reasons with no desire to actually be a woman..others wear the same garments but would prefer to actually be women...there is so many shades...nature is full of diversity..Gender Queer is where one exhibit's behaviour atypical of one's biological gender..but does not necessarily wish to undergo any surrgical procedures..one is therefore Queer of one's conventional Gender role ...feel this is possibly where I belong..but again everyone is different..I blame the binary system..for restricting the remit of males and females..but again even people with the same feelings view them differently.

Hmm_Messiah

Rev Hellfire wrote:

I like your definition Hmm_Messiah

that gym subscription finally pays off.

Being vaguely non-conformist I admit I still like the convention of sentencess rather than fragments.

and all the periods !!! tis one reason I went ghey

Karl Hungus

Thaedydal wrote:

It is the whole drag queen cross over tbh,
Sometimes a guy in a skirt is a hetrosexual guy who likes skirts,
sometimes a guy in a skirt is a homosexual guy who likes skirts,
somestimes a guy in a skirt is Trandgendered person who may or may not be hetrosexual or homosexual to thier inner gender.
It can be hard to tell.

Sometimes a guy in a skirt is a scotsman.

Nevyn

I said skirt not kilt :P

Lemming

Karl Hungus wrote:

Sometimes a guy in a skirt is a scotsman.

People have been thrown out of 1st floor windows for less my boy ....

Filan

There's no doubt in my mind that Gender role's are gradually becoming more fluid...apparently a hundred years ago the idea of women ever wearing pant's was considered an absurdity... Needs as stated in another forum an articulate leader who can communicate the variable Trans position in a concise logical manner that is easily understood. Without investigation the idea of a man wanting to be a woman or visa versa appears absurd. But when explained....such as difficulty fulfilling conventional Gender roles it is to some extent rational. I personally have no desire for breasts or an optical vagina...a lot of people do actually understand my trouble fitting in...people who know me as a person understand quite a lot....again my problem is primarily with the artifical 'Binary Gender System'..not primarily with my body...I can only speak for myself..some Trans people do hate their bodies..I don't hate mine... But no I don't feel there is that much common ground with L.G.B...actually feel more comfortable in a 'regular' pub...as I want to blend in as much as possible..and don't want to isolate myself

Don't personally see any need for L.G.B on Boards to become L.G.B.T, there is plenty of T support sites and I suspect the numbers on Boards are probably too small for a separate T forum. T is quite different from L.G.B...and despite being T myself i don't feel necessarily belongs with L.G. and B....distinctly different in my view

Regards
Alan

PhantomBeaker

Rev Hellfire wrote:

So it would seem here. Although wikiphedia seems to imply that transsexual is used as a more broad brush to cover transexuals, transvestites and genderqueers (never heard of them before) when applied to LGBT.

Actually, no. You're referring to transgender as opposed to transsexual, and there is a difference (for reference, you say transsexual, but your link points to transgender).

For clarity, "transsexual" means someone who wishes to change their body.
"Transgender" can either be the umbrella term to mean transsexuals, transvestites and genderqueers, or it can be a term in its own right separate from transsexualism.

However, transsexual is a well-defined term and isn't used as a broad term.

PB.

Nevyn

Thanks for the clarifcation PhantomBeaker
and nice sig.

Rev Hellfire

Indeed your are correct I mislinked.
But I think the point still stands that there is/was an association with the lgb community (at least as far as internet forums go). That's not to say its appropriate for this forum or indeed relevant, I myself don't see any real connection between the two camps.

LegacyUser

Do you ever get called a fag? A dyke? or other slurs about your sexuality when you're simply walking down the street?

Yes? Well how did that person on the other side of the street know you're gay, lesbian or bi? They didn't. They judged that from your gender expression. Gender expression has a huge root in homophobia. If you 'look like a fag' you look like an effeminate man. Masculine women 'look like' lesbians or maybe you are a femme lesbian and yer sick of people in gay clubs assuming you're a fag hag. We're guilty of the same gender assumptions as the person across the street afterall.
They (and sometimes we) relate (incorrectly) gender and sexuality in todays society. So though gender and sexuality are seperate things, homophobia relates them both which is why there is an LGBT movement - because if everyone accepted LGBT people without andy prejudice at all there wouldn't be need of one. Transphobia is homophobia and vice versa in a loooot of ways.

Not to mention the LGBT movement being STARTED by Trans people in the first place.
Not to mention that Trans people are LG and B as well as being Trans. (I don't stop having sexual urges because I'm trans ok?)

I know you might not understand it and hell you might not even like it but Trans issues have huge overlap with LGB issues. And as I tell all the Transsexual people who may not want to be associated with LGB... we are. It's a simple fact at the end of the day. Deal with it. Should or shouldn't all you want.

Brynn

Hi. Was alerted to this thread on an Irish transgender listserve and thought I'd drop by and respectfully add my 2 cents worth. I'm a female-to-male transsexual (FtM) who lives in Dublin and identifies as queer. That's right, since transition I've loved and been partnered with both men and women. So it will come as no surprise that I feel strongly that LGBQ and T quite naturally belong together.

First, there are a fair number of us trannies who identify as LGB or Q after transition, their inclusion should be a given. Likewise, though, a large number of us identified as LGB or Q before transition. Do we just lose all that history? Do the hormones or surgeries, if we opt for them, wipe our minds of our memories and our hearts of our former passion and alliances?

Take myself, for example. I was born female, still have a partially female body (FtM lower surgery doesn't tempt many of us) and have 40 years of being treated by society as a woman. I lived and was active in the dyke community in San Francisco for a decade before sorting out that I was actually FtM. I’m a mother of a grown daughter. And I remain an outspoken feminist. Say I were only dating women now--looking to the world like a hetero couple. Would you call me straight? Don’t forget, what I do in bed is what dykes do. How about if I’m dating men? My ex-boyfriend and I were as much at risk of being gay-bashed as any gay couple. Was I straight then?

The simple fact of the matter is, no matter who I’m dating now, I will never be straight. (Thankfully!)

Moreover, one could make a strong argument that in a society (ours) founded on the belief that men should sleep with women and women with men, each and every one of YOU who has sex with a same-sex partner is engaging in "trans-gendered" behaviour. I mean, think about it. Men w/men and women w/ women is at least as trans as a man putting on a dress or a woman applying spirit-gum and facial hair!

Finally, and this is a big one, those people out there who hate queers--and there are still many of them!-- don't make fine distinctions. In fact, I'd bet money on the fact that they'd laugh themselves silly--oh, no, that would be "too gay" for them—they’d rub their hands in glee to know that we're spending so much time and energy arguing among ourselves about whether or not to include "T" with LGB. It makes their job of keeping us second-class citizen all that much easier.

Thanks for the chance to have my say….:cool:

Boston

Welcome to this forum. Just like to point out in case it was missed. Transgender posts and Topics have always been welcome on this forum.

Anyway; I agree with a lot of what you say (i'll get to what I don't agree with in a second). I definitely identify with the Queer and Bi-sexual labels, however there is a wide varity of flavours within both groupings that I don't related to at all. You can put everyone under the same label or separate everyone out into a unique on, that doesn't affect how much people are able to relate to one another. I've no idea what it means to be transgendered, I've kinda got an Idea what it's like to be a gay male, and I've again no real idea about what it means to be a lesbian, Yet I'll happily say all the people in these grouping are Queer and so am I. I've more in common with hetrosexual behavioural "norms" then any other grouping.

So yes, society might threat us all the same, but the reality is we're not.

As for what I don't agree with: The meaning of Trans gendered can't be stretched like that. I've had sex with a guy and imho it's probably the most masculine thing a man can do, certainly not effeminate.

Brynn

Boston wrote:

As for what I don't agree with: The meaning of Trans gendered can't be stretched like that. I've had sex with a guy and imho it's probably the most masculine thing a man can do, certainly not effeminate.

Thanks for the welcome!

But are you pulling my chain, Boston? I didn't say gay male sex was effeminate. I said that given society expects you, as a man, to only want sex with women, the fact you're desiring and having sex with a man is "trans-gendered" behaviour.

Trans doesn't mean effeminate...if it did, where would that leave me? It means that your behaviour or identity defies what is considered "normal" for your gender. Men wanting sex with men and women wanting sex with women IS, by its very nature, trans-gendered.

Oh, in some societies by the way, the bottom in gay male sex is considered to be "effeminate." As a feminist, I've long believed that homophobia is, at its heart, founded on misogyny.

Boston

Brynn wrote:

But are you pulling my chain, Boston? I didn't say gay male sex was effeminate. I said that given society expects you, as a man, to only want sex with women, the fact you're desiring and having sex with a man is "trans-gendered" behaviour.

Transgendered to for me is associated with gender role reversal. I don't see anything wrong with that view or anything to contradict it. I also don't see how fits in with being with a member of the same sex. I'm a man, as masculine as any, some magic doesn't happen in the bed room to stop that.

Trans doesn't mean effeminate...if it did, where would that leave me? It means that your behaviour or identity defies what is considered "normal" for your gender. Men wanting sex with men and women wanting sex with women IS, by its very nature, trans-gendered.

Even if I didn't have sex with guys, my sexual behaviour would probably still be outside the norms for your average Irish male.

Oh, in some societies by the way, the bottom in gay male sex is considered to be "effeminate." As a feminist, I've long believed that homophobia is, at its heart, founded on misogyny.

Well all I can say is that men who say that clearly have never had sex with another man.

Rev Hellfire

I must admit I don't really see the connection you're trying to make.
The crux of transgenderism (is there such a word?) is the perceived gender mismatch an individual has between their mental and physical self.

A gay/lesbian/bisexual doesn't have that, they're on the whole quite comfortable with their gender in the same way a straight person is.