Money = better education?

genericgoon

Also think about the people who go to the institute. People dont go to the institute just for the craic of it. They go to do well in exams. Therefore the results will be skewed as the usual quota of lazy people who dont care about the LC wont be at the places like the institute

cson

xha1r wrote:

Well first of all, I go to the Institute, so I'm in a position to comment on the standard of teaching there. And as such, I can say that I haven't heard one person complain about a teacher; except once. That teacher subsequently "left" the school.

As for the course being the same argument; I can't think of a great metaphor, but a suitable one would be that of a car. Two cars will share similar components, all necessary to make that car function. It's how they're put together and the quality of those components that define the better car.

It's the same with the Leaving Cert course. How it is presented and the quality of the notes covering the course are what differentiate one school from another.



Those "fantastic" notes are that "something extra special."

Which theoretically means that the institute is academically better than your normal public school. Somewhat proving the original question right that money does indeed equal a better 'education'.

Personally I don't agree, money may equal a better leaving cert but if you want a proper education look no further than a public school imo.

thefinalstage

As my english teacher use to say to me.

"The institute is a crutch for people who are really nervous about the exam and cannot stand on their own."

xha1r

thelastangryman wrote:

As my english teacher use to say to me.

"The institute is a crutch for people who are really nervous about the exam and cannot stand on their own."

You're English teacher is a tool.

genericgoon wrote:

Also think about the people who go to the institute. People dont go to the institute just for the craic of it. They go to do well in exams. Therefore the results will be skewed as the usual quota of lazy people who dont care about the LC wont be at the places like the institute

That's not true. A lot of people go to the Institute because of the freedom it offers the student, their friends going there and because of it's higher social class reputation.

There were more wasters in the Institute than I could believe.

cson wrote:

Which theoretically means that the institute is academically better than your normal public school. Somewhat proving the original question right that money does indeed equal a better 'education'.

Personally I don't agree, money may equal a better leaving cert but if you want a proper education look no further than a public school imo.

What's your definition of education? Social skills, etc? That's a pretty hard area to go into and come out of with a correct answer. I think social skills are more dependent on the person that the school environment. A lot of the life skills one learns, or things that affect the development of those skills come from primary school and their parents; I don't think secondary school or third level would change a person to that different a degree.

Of course you may not have meant social skills but whatev.

cson

xha1r wrote:

A lot of people go to the Institute because of the freedom it offers the student

Steve01

thelastangryman wrote:

"people who are really nervous about the exam and cannot stand on their own."

I prefer the term 'grind whores' myself

cson

Steve01 wrote:

I prefer the term 'grind whores' myself

Lol. +1

SamHamilton

Starting to sense a hint of bitterness here he he he:

I prefer the term 'grind whores' myself

is this jealousy in disguise suggesting that, if you had the chance, you'd go?

cson

SamHamilton wrote:

if you had the chance, you'd go?

And more or less abandon any friends you had or semblance of normality?

Edit: Spelling corrected, courtesy of xh1er for kindly pointing it out.

xha1r

cson wrote:

Yes?

xha1r

cson wrote:

And more or less abandon any friends you had or semblence of normality?

Semblance*

SamHamilton

And more or less abandon any friends you had or semblence of normality?

Ha!:D

cson

"Freedom? Its just a word. If I had to die for a word it'd be poontang"

cson

xha1r wrote:

Semblance*

Ah yes the petty spelling and grammar corrections.

xha1r

cson wrote:

Ah yes the petty spelling and grammar corrections.

You've done it before, no? If not, I apologise.

jaydigity

Here's ,my perspective:
I was in a public school, changed for 6th year to a grind school.Mainly because I was having some problems not related to school and thought it could help sort it out (don't ask!).
1)I completely disagree with the concept of a two tier education system (yes I'm a hypocrite).It's absolutely appalling that's accepted as a norm for people to pay in the hope of getting better leaving results
2)As for getting "spoonfed notes" and as a result being unable to handle college, I wouldn't agree.The LC system is geared towards uncritical, mindless learning, irrespective of which school you go to.
3)Facilities?What facilities.Going to an all girl school (the public one),PE was a joke,pointless computer classes,and directionless religion classes.So,I really don't miss this aspect of my old school.(but i think extra cirricular stuff is really important before senior cycle)
4)Bizarrely,in my grind school,in a year bigger than my last school ( 120ish), only THREE people do both honors maths,english and Irish.Virtually every1 did in the public school
5)I found teachers a lot better in the grind school, though I'd say that 3 teachers in my old school were Absolutely brilliant.However, this makes very little difference, with the exception of a few subjects.Ultimately,it's up to the student to do the work.
6)Results wise,the grind school is not more succesful than my last school

By the way, does anyone else think that theres some, intangible thingmajig that allows students in a particular school to get good results.My old school does not,in my opinion, have good teachers.Yet,we have extremely high exam results.(We played host to one of the 900 pointers!)But a school, literally 20 minutes walk away (also a public school) has a poor reputation for results,even though its class sizes etc are smaller.Anyone know how to explain a disparity like that?

cson

xha1r wrote:

You've done it before, no? If not, I apologise.

No, as a matter of fact, I haven't. I don't need to resort to such tactics.

SamHamilton

By the way, does anyone else think that theres some, intangible thingmajig that allows students in a particular school to get good results.

The students?
I got to an okay school. Nothing fancy, not a great choice of subjects but a great atmosphere. That's probably it. I can talk to 3 of my teachers like friends and there's only one teacher that I wouldn't approach with a problem. What does that have to do with exams? I suppose you have more confidence in your ability. And confidence is everything - especially for maths. I think the only reason I've been able to do maths is because I go in with a big head thinking that there's nothing I can't do. This confidence is promoted by good relationships between students and teachers (and other students).

Ah yes the petty spelling and grammar corrections.

As a sidenote, please don't get started on the whole "you spelt a word wrong therefore you're below me" thing and grow up. This behaviour makes people seem pathetic.

genericgoon

SamHamilton wrote:

I got to an okay school

What is this? Only slaggin' :P

SamHamilton

I got to an okay school
What is this? Only joking with you. :P

Know you are joking but I might as well answer, I'm so bored. Have agscience left but I refuse to do any study.

Most students in my school are average, i.e. they get between 300 and 350. there are some exceptions - quite a few get less than 300 and a few get 500 each year.

There's not a great choice of subjects - metalwork or home ec, art/woodwork/business, agscience/biology and they're all the choices.

2/3's of the class don't want to be there.

BUT if a student wants to do well, he is given the opportunity to do so. I got all A's in the JC for example and going to my school didn't hinder me at all.

Very little extra-cur. activities. Football or walks. That's about it.

Can't think of anything else right now. But that's a normal school I think.

genericgoon

i was referring to the use of got rather than go but an interesting piece in any case.

ashyle

I don't go to a fee-paying school. It's been good enough I think. It's not the prettiest school to look at but we have a very high standard when it comes to lc results. I hate those snobby kids who change school in 5th year and go to grinds schools. they miss out on debs and graduation etc..

JC 2K3

xha1r wrote:

Yes, they do. There's a big difference between teacher's in the Institute compared to some of those in your average public school, i.e., the proportion of quality teacher's in private schools is greater than that in public school's.

No, not at all.

Maybe grind schools, but not your average private school.

xha1r wrote:

That last part is idiotic; they send them to private schools because they want them to receive the best education. I would say the majority of students in private school's come from middle-class families with parents who have above-average paying jobs and a house with a mortgage. Not all, in fact, not many parents are rich enough to "have nothing else to spend their money on".

I'd be willing to bet that were there the option of an equally good public school and fee paying school in close proximity that most of these parents would still send them to the private school. It IS abouyt prestige in a LOT of cases.

Of course, grind schools like the institute are completely different to normal private schools.

SamHamilton

i was referring to the use of got rather than go but an interesting piece in any case.

Oh, whoops! I could say that that was done deliberately considering the rest of my post but that would be a lie and "lying makes baby Jesus cry.":D

SamHamilton

I'd be willing to bet that were there the option of an equally good public school and fee paying school in close proximity that most of these parents would still send them to the private school. It IS abouyt prestige in a LOT of cases.

I disagree. They'd send them to the private school in the belief that it's better. Arguably, there would be more prestige in saying "My Jonathan managed to get 600 points in a public school. Yes Cherie, can one imagine that? He is an absolute genius darling" than in him going to a private school and getting 600 points.

JC 2K3

Exactly, the belief that it's better due to the prestige associated with paying money to get your child educated.

SamHamilton

the belief that it's better due to the prestige associated with paying money to get your child educated.

Did you read my post? That's not what I said.

They'd send them to the private school in the belief that it's better

That's what I said. It has nothing to do with prestige. Usually you get what you pay for. If you buy a pair of runners in Dunnes they'll last about a month. Nike runners will last at least three months. Parents just assume that, because they're paying for it, it must be better. They don't do it to say that their child is going to a great school, they do it because they believe their children are getting a better education.

spudington16

Well, you can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink: my experience in the Institute over the past 2 years was that many parents saw it as a babysitting service.

That is, they assumed the teachers would lead their darling children to 6+ A1s, with little to no work on the student's part, and that it was the teacher's failing if the student didn't make the grade. It became apparent that whenever people weren't good at a subject (either through lack of work, or not being up to it) the teacher would be blamed.

Admittedly, this was more the case in 5th Form than 6th, but it was still there. I think you only get out of something what you put into it; a good student could arguably get 600 points in a "bad" school, just as a lazy person in the Institute or another grind school is not guaranteed success.

But there are other issues to education than academic success, in my opinion: there was little or no sense of camaraderie in the Institute in 6th Form, as most people forgot that it was simply another year of school, and took themselves far too seriously, with little or no socialising between classes etc.

So, it's hard to pin down whether a private education is a better one, because there are so many sides to it, and it's based on the student as much as the institution in question...

JC 2K3

SamHamilton wrote:

Usually you get what you pay for. If you buy a pair of runners in Dunnes they'll last about a month. Nike runners will last at least three months.

That's not empirically true and only assumed due to the status or "prestige" associated with the Nike brand.

SamHamilton wrote:

Parents just assume that, because they're paying for it, it must be better. They don't do it to say that their child is going to a great school, they do it because they believe their children are getting a better education.

And why do they believe their children will get a better education there? Prestige associated with paying for it.

Corruptedmorals

ashyle wrote:

they miss out on debs and graduation etc..

Not in my school, they were all allowed tickets for grads and debs.

SamHamilton

And why do they believe their children will get a better education there? Prestige associated with paying for it.

No. I had a feeling you were going to answer with this. I don't understand what kind of connotation of "prestige" you are using.

The higher the cost, the better the quality. This is the attitude that the parents sending their children to fee-paying schools believe.

the prestige associated with paying money to get your child educated

I really don't understand what you mean by this. This suggests to me that you are saying the parents feel that they are better than others because they are paying to educate their children.

If this is the case then their children's education is not what they have in mind and that

they (do not) believe their children will get a better education

they believe they will be regarded as well off or whatever.

Please clarify what you mean.

JC 2K3

They feel their children will get a better education based soley on the fact that they are paying money for it and without looking at what they're paying for.

SamHamilton

They feel their children will get a better education based soley on the fact that they are paying money for it and without looking at what they're paying for

That's what I was saying. I think you used prestige incorrectly. Prestige is usually linked with reputation above anything else but correct me if I'm wrong. Actually, don't even bother, it's not important.

But yeah, and it's the same in all walks of life. If it has a high price tag it must be better than the thing with the lower price tag. This isn't alays true however but this topic is multifaceted. We'd have to ask what education is. What a good education is.

Killaqueen!!!

If people think there is no sense of prestige associated with private schools you need to open your eyes. I go to a private school and I hate it. People are nice but they're so stuck up. I grow up in what I'd call a normal area, it's not too rough but you wouldn't want to be alone after dark. I am not slagging people who go to private schools because of their neighbourhood but most of the people who go to my school are rich, spoilt, stuck-up poshies from the d4 invaded areas of south dublin - and those are my friends! They would look down on people who wear tracksuits that aren't cantos, and if you look like you're not a d4.

But you can't doubt that the education is better than public schools. At the very worst it is only slightly better than the very best public schools (if that makes sense). You get what you pay for, and (in my school at least) the extra curricular activities is there too. However, subject choice is limited and I would say that there are less extra curricular activities available than in public schools. I don't think that private schools are necessary for a good education though - it depends what public school you go to and it depends on the student.

JC 2K3

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

If people think there is no sense of prestige associated with private schools you need to open your eyes. I go to a private school and I hate it. People are nice but they're so stuck up. I grow up in what I'd call a normal area, it's not too rough but you wouldn't want to be alone after dark. I am not slagging people who go to private schools because of their neighbourhood but most of the people who go to my school are rich, spoilt, stuck-up poshies from the d4 invaded areas of south dublin - and those are my friends! They would look down on people who wear tracksuits that aren't cantos, and if you look like you're not a d4.

I feel for you.

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

But you can't doubt that the education is better than public schools. At the very worst it is only slightly better than the very best public schools (if that makes sense). You get what you pay for

What are you basing that on?

SamHamilton

If people think there is no sense of prestige associated with private schools you need to open your eyes

I'm not questioning that there is a sense of prestige associated with private schools. Of course there is. Private school's have reputation and distinction. What I didn't understand was this:

Prestige associated with paying for it

?

the prestige associated with paying for it? Prestige suggests respect resulting from achievements or high quality.

But whatever, I'm a word nerd and I apologize.

most of the people who go to my school are rich, spoilt, stuck-up poshies from the d4 invaded areas of south dublin - and those are my friends! They would look down on people who wear tracksuits that aren't cantos, and if you look like you're not a d4.

They may be rich but they're not proper human beings if they "look down on people who wear tracksuits." Plus, they tend to be so materialistic that it makes me ill. They are immensely superficial. A generalisation I know but hey, shoot me.

JC 2K3

SamHamilton wrote:

the prestige associated with paying for it? Prestige suggests respect resulting from achievements or high quality.

Prestige just implies a good reputation arising from something. Private schools tend to get this automatically simply due to the fact that they charge fees, which normal schools don't do.

It's a ridiculous mindset IMO. All this "you get what you pay for" bullshít písses me off. It's totally untrue. All you're paying for in an average private school(not a grind school) is for your children to be seperated from those who can't afford it. It's all about class.

SamHamilton

All you're paying for in an average private school(not a grind school) is for your children to be seperated from those who can't afford it. It's all about class.

Any suggestions on how to fix this?:)

Perhaps a number of bonfires which might, for some unfathomable reason, burn out of control and destroy certain schools?:D

It's a ridiculous mindset IMO. All this "you get what you pay for" bullshít písses me off. It's totally untrue. All you're paying for in an average private school(not a grind school) is for your children to be seperated from those who can't afford it. It's all about class

If it's all about class then who cares? If the education you get in a private school is the same in a public school, which you are suggesting it is, then what's the problem? Anyone worrying about whether or not they are keeping up with the Jones' is worrying about nothing if that's the case.

That's not the case though. Private schools offer more than public schools and that's undisputable.
Whether this is more subject options, better libraries (or even a library, we don't have one!:o ), better sports equipment, computers etc. there are better facilities in private schools so it's not "all about class".

genericgoon

If you wanna stop it start a communist revolution or something.

SamHamilton

It's strange how easy-going we are. If this was France we'd be having riots right now!

JC 2K3

SamHamilton wrote:

Any suggestions on how to fix this?:)

Perhaps a number of bonfires which might, for some unfathomable reason, burn out of control and destroy certain schools?:D

Or a simple law outlawing the charging of fees for entry to a school.

SamHamilton wrote:

If it's all about class then who cares? If the education you get in a private school is the same in a public school, which you are suggesting it is, then what's the problem? Anyone worrying about whether or not they are keeping up with the Jones' is worrying about nothing if that's the case.

You're dividing people of different socio-economic backgrounds, which is awful. One's school years are vital to forming a young person's opinions and mindset.

SamHamilton wrote:

That's not the case though. Private schools offer more than public schools and that's undisputable.
Whether this is more subject options, better libraries (or even a library, we don't have one!:o ), better sports equipment, computers etc. there are better facilities in private schools so it's not "all about class".

Not necessarily. I happen to be in a privilaged public school that has all those things and there are some private schools that are absolute dumps.

genericgoon

LOL. Stupid french. We just cant be arsed in this country. We'd all end up in the pub anyways.

JC 2K3

genericgoon wrote:

If you wanna stop it start a communist revolution or something.

Ugh, it's got nothing to do with Communism in the slightest. It's about Capitalism on a level playing field. Everyone should have the same level of education available to them, not be seperated from any of their peers due to class and then be able to go into the world at 18 and allowed compete in a Captalist system, set up private enterprise etc.

A socialist school system - yes. Communism - no.

xha1r

JC 2K3 wrote:

I feel for you.


What are you basing that on?

Results I'd imagine?

Cue I go to Coláiste Eoin and we....

cson

Install Stalin as Minister for Education ftw.

SamHamilton

Everyone should have the same level of education available to them, not be seperated from any of their peers due to class

But you said this:

All you're paying for in an average private school(not a grind school) is for your children to be seperated from those who can't afford it. It's all about class.

Which suggests that the education is the same if all you're paying for is class and not better education.

???

I'm not really able to say much because I have no experience with private schools while you seem to but I believe that there are more opportunities available to people who pay fees - the money has to go somewhere. Into facilities probably so better education, no?

On a not entirely unrelated topic, how would one go about becoming the ruler of the country?:)

Steve01

SamHamilton wrote:

Starting to sense a hint of bitterness here he he he:



is this jealousy in disguise suggesting that, if you had the chance, you'd go?

Not in the slightest. Why would I want to go to a grind school? At the end of the day whether you're in a grind school or a regular school you're gonna find yourself in the same situation - either you do the work or you don't bother.

I feel sorry for all the idiots who seem to think that if they put enough money into something, the work will miraculously get done with minimum effort. I know lots of people who under-performed in the Leaving last year because they put all their confidence in the 'professionals' and not in their own abilities. I'm just delighted I wasn't that stupid

JC 2K3

xha1r wrote:

Results I'd imagine?

Since there are no accurate league tables available, it's impossible to judge properly. The only league tables we have are ones saying what percentage of a school's pupils went to university. Two points here:

-Due to class, the parents of someone from a richer background will urge them to go to college, whereas lesser well off parents would be less bothered if their child did an apprenticeship or something else.
-Therefore someone from a private school could just do Arts, not give a fúck, and get by on Mammy and Daddy's money and yet still be counted in that league table, as opposed to someone of similar intelligence in a public school who decided to do an apprenticeship or something else.

At the end of the day, people from better off backgrounds will inevitably go to college, not because of the school they go to, but because of what their parents expect from them. Private schools just group all such people together and make it seem like they're offering a higher standard of education, which isn't necessarily true.

SamHamilton

At the end of the day, people from better off backgrounds will inevitably go to college, not because of the school they go to, but because of what their parents expect from them.

Yup. My parents never went to college. They all came from large families - I mean freakishly large 9 kids God can you imagine - and their parents never even mentioned college. They never even considered the possibility.
But then my mother's youngest sister went to college. the family were in a more stable state wit economic stability and it was only then that the family started to hear about college.

Yeah, that's years ago but it's no different now.

Private schools just group all such people together (the people that intend to go to college) and make it seem like they're offering a higher standard of education, which isn't necessarily true.

Interesting point. A lot of my classmates don't intend to go to college. They'll get more than enough points to go to college but want to do apprenticeships or whatever instead. As a result, our school doesn't make it in the tables as a top feeder school for college. Doesn't mean we're idiots and uneducated.:o

JC 2K3

SamHamilton wrote:

Which suggests that the education is the same if all you're paying for is class and not better education.

No it suggests that whether a school is fee paying or not does not denote whether it is a good school or not.

SamHamilton wrote:

Into facilities probably so better education, no?

Well some private schools don't have facilities and some public ones do. I'll admit that private schools on average tend to have more facilities, but does that mean a better education? If you say that facilities add to the quality of someone's education then I say that the mix of people in a school adds to the quality of someone's education more than any facilities ever could.