Money = better education?

JC 2K3

SamHamilton wrote:

Any suggestions on how to fix this?:)

Perhaps a number of bonfires which might, for some unfathomable reason, burn out of control and destroy certain schools?:D

Or a simple law outlawing the charging of fees for entry to a school.

SamHamilton wrote:

If it's all about class then who cares? If the education you get in a private school is the same in a public school, which you are suggesting it is, then what's the problem? Anyone worrying about whether or not they are keeping up with the Jones' is worrying about nothing if that's the case.

You're dividing people of different socio-economic backgrounds, which is awful. One's school years are vital to forming a young person's opinions and mindset.

SamHamilton wrote:

That's not the case though. Private schools offer more than public schools and that's undisputable.
Whether this is more subject options, better libraries (or even a library, we don't have one!:o ), better sports equipment, computers etc. there are better facilities in private schools so it's not "all about class".

Not necessarily. I happen to be in a privilaged public school that has all those things and there are some private schools that are absolute dumps.

genericgoon

LOL. Stupid french. We just cant be arsed in this country. We'd all end up in the pub anyways.

JC 2K3

genericgoon wrote:

If you wanna stop it start a communist revolution or something.

Ugh, it's got nothing to do with Communism in the slightest. It's about Capitalism on a level playing field. Everyone should have the same level of education available to them, not be seperated from any of their peers due to class and then be able to go into the world at 18 and allowed compete in a Captalist system, set up private enterprise etc.

A socialist school system - yes. Communism - no.

xha1r

JC 2K3 wrote:

I feel for you.


What are you basing that on?

Results I'd imagine?

Cue I go to Coláiste Eoin and we....

cson

Install Stalin as Minister for Education ftw.

SamHamilton

Everyone should have the same level of education available to them, not be seperated from any of their peers due to class

But you said this:

All you're paying for in an average private school(not a grind school) is for your children to be seperated from those who can't afford it. It's all about class.

Which suggests that the education is the same if all you're paying for is class and not better education.

???

I'm not really able to say much because I have no experience with private schools while you seem to but I believe that there are more opportunities available to people who pay fees - the money has to go somewhere. Into facilities probably so better education, no?

On a not entirely unrelated topic, how would one go about becoming the ruler of the country?:)

Steve01

SamHamilton wrote:

Starting to sense a hint of bitterness here he he he:



is this jealousy in disguise suggesting that, if you had the chance, you'd go?

Not in the slightest. Why would I want to go to a grind school? At the end of the day whether you're in a grind school or a regular school you're gonna find yourself in the same situation - either you do the work or you don't bother.

I feel sorry for all the idiots who seem to think that if they put enough money into something, the work will miraculously get done with minimum effort. I know lots of people who under-performed in the Leaving last year because they put all their confidence in the 'professionals' and not in their own abilities. I'm just delighted I wasn't that stupid

JC 2K3

xha1r wrote:

Results I'd imagine?

Since there are no accurate league tables available, it's impossible to judge properly. The only league tables we have are ones saying what percentage of a school's pupils went to university. Two points here:

-Due to class, the parents of someone from a richer background will urge them to go to college, whereas lesser well off parents would be less bothered if their child did an apprenticeship or something else.
-Therefore someone from a private school could just do Arts, not give a fúck, and get by on Mammy and Daddy's money and yet still be counted in that league table, as opposed to someone of similar intelligence in a public school who decided to do an apprenticeship or something else.

At the end of the day, people from better off backgrounds will inevitably go to college, not because of the school they go to, but because of what their parents expect from them. Private schools just group all such people together and make it seem like they're offering a higher standard of education, which isn't necessarily true.

SamHamilton

At the end of the day, people from better off backgrounds will inevitably go to college, not because of the school they go to, but because of what their parents expect from them.

Yup. My parents never went to college. They all came from large families - I mean freakishly large 9 kids God can you imagine - and their parents never even mentioned college. They never even considered the possibility.
But then my mother's youngest sister went to college. the family were in a more stable state wit economic stability and it was only then that the family started to hear about college.

Yeah, that's years ago but it's no different now.

Private schools just group all such people together (the people that intend to go to college) and make it seem like they're offering a higher standard of education, which isn't necessarily true.

Interesting point. A lot of my classmates don't intend to go to college. They'll get more than enough points to go to college but want to do apprenticeships or whatever instead. As a result, our school doesn't make it in the tables as a top feeder school for college. Doesn't mean we're idiots and uneducated.:o

JC 2K3

SamHamilton wrote:

Which suggests that the education is the same if all you're paying for is class and not better education.

No it suggests that whether a school is fee paying or not does not denote whether it is a good school or not.

SamHamilton wrote:

Into facilities probably so better education, no?

Well some private schools don't have facilities and some public ones do. I'll admit that private schools on average tend to have more facilities, but does that mean a better education? If you say that facilities add to the quality of someone's education then I say that the mix of people in a school adds to the quality of someone's education more than any facilities ever could.

SamHamilton

No it suggests that whether a school is fee paying or not does not denote whether it is a good school or not.

But you said the only difference is class. If that's the only difference then the education must be the same. Maybe I'm being too analytical.

I'll admit that private schools on average tend to have more facilities, but does that mean a better education?

Yes. More access to resources - libraries, internet etc.

If you say that facilities add to the quality of someone's education then I say that the mix of people in a school adds to the quality of someone's education

Of course it does. There are many things that add to one's education. Better facilities is one of these.

JC 2K3

SamHamilton wrote:

But you said the only difference is class. If that's the only difference then the education must be the same. Maybe I'm being too analytical.

The only common difference between 100% of public schools and 100% of private schools is class.

SamHamilton wrote:

Yes. More access to resources - libraries, internet etc.

There are public libraries everywhere and everyone has the internet. Please don't try to argue that facilities benefit one's academic capabilty, because they don't. Facilities help schools offer more sports etc. , that's all.

SamHamilton

Please don't try to argue that facilities benefit one's academic capabilty, because they don't.

:eek:

Are you serious? I have a friend who goes to a private school and they have access to critical writings on poets etc. This is a huge help for English. I can't find them in my local library and it's a lot more bothersome for me to get to my library than it is far a student to walk into theirs.

I have another friend who goes to a private bording school and they have a large computer room and braodband. They use the internet once a week in biology class and he says it helps him immensely in understanding the subject.

Plus, they have equipment - which was bought with the money from fees as stated in their newsletter - to help with language learning.

Please don't try to argue that facilities benefit one's academic capabilty

The facilities don't effect one's academic capability but they effect one's education immensely.

The only common difference between 100% of public schools and 100% of private schools is class.

So the education's the same.

sezconz

i think the level of education basically comes down to what your teachers are like!! non fee paying schools and fee paying schools alike have some exceptional teachers and its through them that we recieve the best education! For me personally, if i have a woeful teacher then that subject suffers and trust me a have a few! Then there's the teachers that are truly meant to teach n can actually teach..its one thing knowing a subject inside out but being capable of teaching it, is a different ball game altogether!

JC 2K3

SamHamilton wrote:

Are you serious? I have a friend who goes to a private school and they have access to critical writings on poets etc. This is a huge help for English. I can't find them in my local library and it's a lot more bothersome for me to get to my library than it is far a student to walk into theirs.

Let's take Sylvia Plath for example:
http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&q=critical+writings+on+sylvia+plath&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

The internet helped me immensly in English, getting critiques on poets and poems. In this day and age libraries just aren't that special anymore.

SamHamilton wrote:

I have another friend who goes to a private bording school and they have a large computer room and braodband. They use the internet once a week in biology class and he says it helps him immensely in understanding the subject.

As does my school and tbh, using the computers during a class is of no benefit whatsoever.

And everyone has the internet at home anyway.

SamHamilton wrote:

So the education's the same.

No, lol, you're not getting it.

Of all the schools in Ireland, public and private, some offer a great education, others do not. However, this is not necessarily affected by whether the school is public or private. The only common difference between public and private schools in general is that private schools have people of a higher class.

themont85

cson wrote:

Touché. Its an absolute disgrace that teachers salaries in fee-paying schools are paid for by the government.

I hate this argument over the Government paying fee paying schools teachers. Look at it this way, not all private schools chare over the top fees considering the facilities and extra curricular activities. If you add the cost of paying the core group of teachers to this many parents couldn't afford the fees because they would be ridiculous. Private education would refer to the uber rich and those parents who wish for private education for their children will pay for further Institute type 'schools' where learing is key and extra curricular activities are very much at a minimum.
As well as this many parents would send their children through the public system putting further strain on this service because the Government would still pay these teachers and the extra schools needed would put a further cost on the taxpayer. Imagine if VHI healthcare was stopped tomorrow the public health system simply couldn't cope!

JC 2K3

themont85 wrote:

I hate this argument over the Government paying fee paying schools teachers. Look at it this way, not all private schools chare over the top fees consider, ing the facilities and extra curricular activities. If you add the cost of paying the core group of teachers to this many parents couldn't afford the fees because they would be ridiculous.

Yes, but why should some students get to go to schools with great facilities and others not? Why should students of different classes be seperated?

And in any case, as I've said, some public schools have excellent facilities and they don't seem to need extra funding....

themont85 wrote:

As well as this many parents would send their children through the public system putting further strain on this service because the Government would still pay these teachers and the extra schools needed would put a further cost on the taxpayer. Imagine if VHI healthcare was stopped tomorrow the public health system simply couldn't cope!

No, if private schools were abolished, the private schools would become public schools. And it's nothing like the health system. Like you said, the teachers are already payed by the government. If students wanted to do extra curricular activities then they could just pay for them themselves.

eZe^

JC, youve basically spent the entire thread arguing that better results and facilities doesnt make a better education? Could I ask what qualifies as a good education? Extra curricular activities? Strong friendships that youll keep for life? Being able to look back on your time at school and feel they were the best times of your life? (btw, not trying to sound bitter here, just curious)


I mean seriously, people here have prided themselves on putting all students who go to a private school into a box, labelled as snobs and people with rich parents... Its actually ridiculous, its like someone in a private school labelling all people in community schools as monkeys who can tie there own shoe laces... Its just not true...


I think it costs around 800 euro a year to go to my school, thats not alot of money man, especially the the prosperity of Ireland over the recent years. If money is really the issue, and the child is academically/ athletically gifted he has a chance at a scholarship. Out of 120 students in my year there is about 10 snobs, youd find that anywhere, there is also a good few from lower class social backgrounds. I just dont understand how people can be so bitter towards private schools!


I moved to Spain for a year and when I came back I changed schools because the location was more convenient. I went there for a month and absolutely hated it, the teachers were crap in comparison, the only subjects it had that my old school didnt offer were woodwork and metalwork. There was alot less extra curricular activities and there was too many segregated groups. I couldnt stand it so I moved back to my old school. I have to admit, 6th year has been one of the best years of my life, everyone is just so relaxed and everyone is friendly with eachother. Besides the whole LC its been my favourite year, such good pranks too, but thats a little off topic!

(apologies for the lack of apostrophes, that button doesnt work on my keyboard! )

JC 2K3

eZe^ wrote:

JC, youve basically spent the entire thread arguing that better results and facilities doesnt make a better education? Could I ask what qualifies as a good education? Extra curricular activities? Strong friendships that youll keep for life? Being able to look back on your time at school and feel they were the best times of your life? (btw, not trying to sound bitter here, just curious)

No, I my points are the following:
-Private schools don't get better results, it just seems that way as a higher per centage go to college. There are no accurate league tables available in the first place and half the time the "great results" of private schools are all just media influenced exaggeration.(not talking about grind schools here)
-Some public schools have great facilities and charge no fees, and some private schools have none and the price is just paying for prestige and seperation from lower classes.
-The amount of money your parents have should not determine what type of school you go to. Whether paying money means a better education or not is irrelevant, people should not be denied access to certain schools just because they can't afford it.(or at the very least, private schools should have NO support from the government)

eZe^ wrote:

I mean seriously, people here have prided themselves on putting all students who go to a private school into a box, labelled as snobs and people with rich parents... Its actually ridiculous, its like someone in a private school labelling all people in community schools as monkeys who can tie there own shoe laces... Its just not true...

I have not done this. I simply ask, why the need for segregation?

eZe^ wrote:

I think it costs around 800 euro a year to go to my school, thats not alot of money man, especially the the prosperity of Ireland over the recent years. If money is really the issue, and the child is academically/ athletically gifted he has a chance at a scholarship. Out of 120 students in my year there is about 10 snobs, youd find that anywhere, there is also a good few from lower class social backgrounds. I just dont understand how people can be so bitter towards private schools!

Why the need to pay the money in the first place? The attitude of "most people can afford it, therefore it's ok" is flawed. The fact they offer scholorships simply shows they think they're superior to other schools. And it's not about who's a snob or not, I know many people from private schools who are lovely people, but the fact is that charging for an education is wrong and the perception that going to a private school is better is wrong.

I'm not bitter, I just have principles and opinions.

euwwy deuwwy

I attend a private school and I can assure you that my parents dont fork out E15000 a year to feel superior to others or to obtain a false sense of superiority. My parents, and in the case of most others aswell sent me to a private with the belief that I would have better opportunities to obtain a high standard of education. They both attended university and they tend to believe that its important for me to the same. My local school has a low rate rate of students who attend third level education so sending me to my current school seemed like a good idea. Im sure if their was a higher standard of academics in my local school I would be sent their but according to the figures theres not.

SamHamilton

If you add the cost of paying the core group of teachers to this many parents couldn't afford the fees because they would be ridiculous. Private education would refer to the uber rich and those parents who wish for private education for their children will pay for further Institute type 'schools' where learing is key and extra curricular activities are very much at a minimum.

See, when it means that going to a private school would be out of your means, there is a problem. Well going to a private school now is out of my reach and out of the reach of very many people.

Nehpets

euwwy deuwwy wrote:

Im sure if their was a higher standard of academics in my local school I would be sent their but according to the figures theres not.

Proving that private schools aren't that great

haha, joking

SamHamilton

some offer a great education, others do not. However, this is not necessarily affected by whether the school is public or private.

Some public schools have great facilities and charge no fees, and some private schools have none and the price is just paying for prestige and seperation from lower classes.

some public schools have excellent facilities

You're dealing with minorities for the most part.

I'll admit that private schools on average tend to have more facilities

This is more like it.

xha1r

JC 2K3 wrote:

No, I my points are the following:
-Private schools don't get better results, it just seems that way as a higher per centage go to college. There are no accurate league tables available in the first place and half the time the "great results" of private schools are all just media influenced exaggeration.(not talking about grind schools here)

If there are no accurate league tables, how can you say private schools don't get better results? You can't.

JC 2K3 wrote:

-Some public schools have great facilities and charge no fees, and some private schools have none and the price is just paying for prestige and seperation from lower classes.

I'd like you to give an example of a private (not "grind") school that has no facilities. This "separation from the lower classes" argument is foolish and untrue.

JC 2K3 wrote:

-The amount of money your parents have should not determine what type of school you go to. Whether paying money means a better education or not is irrelevant, people should not be denied access to certain schools just because they can't afford it.(or at the very least, private schools should have NO support from the government)

Why not? What's wrong with paying to go to school? Nothing. One reason students do well in private school's is because they appreciate their parents paid money for them to go there and they don't want to waste it. While in a public school one of the reason's for higher drop out rates (I'm assuming here, as I've rarely heard of someone in a private school dropping out) and worse results is because it's free - nobody is affected except the person leaving.

JC 2K3 wrote:

Why the need to pay the money in the first place?

People pay for better health care do they not? I'd say this is more important than education, but you probably haven't thought about that...

JC 2K3 wrote:

The attitude of "most people can afford it, therefore it's ok" is flawed. The fact they offer scholorships simply shows they think they're superior to other schools.

Oh ffs. Don't be an idiot. The reason they offer scholarships is to allow people who otherwise would have been in a difficult situation to get a better education. Or else they're rewarding somebody for good work. Scholarships have factors that must be met. This encourages the student to continue working to keep the scholarship and thus get good results.

JC 2K3 wrote:

And it's not about who's a snob or not, I know many people from private schools who are lovely people, but the fact is that charging for an education is wrong and the perception that going to a private school is better is wrong.

It's not wrong.

JC 2K3 wrote:

I'm not bitter, I just have principles and opinions.

You may not be bitter, you're just stubborn.

SamHamilton

Why not? What's wrong with paying to go to school? Nothing. One reason students do well in private school's is because they appreciate their parents paid money for them to go there and they don't want to waste it. While in a public school one of the reason's for higher drop out rates (I'm assuming here, as I've rarely heard of someone in a private school dropping out) and worse results is because it's free - nobody is affected except the person leaving.

So they have extra motivation along with better facilities...seems unfair to me.

And is it fair that if that person was given the money to go to a private school that he probably wouldn't drop out? ("I've rarely heard of someone in a private school dropping out")

There are advantages to going to a private school. That's evident. The problem is that this gives more advantages to the rich, leaving the less well off, but equally capable, at a disadvantage.

xha1r

SamHamilton wrote:

So they have extra motivation along with better facilities...seems unfair to me.

And is it fair that if that person was given the money to go to a private school that he probably wouldn't drop out? ("I've rarely heard of someone in a private school dropping out")

So we should therefore outlaw private schools, thus increasing drop out rates and contributing negatively to the overall number of people attending college?

SamHamilton wrote:

There are advantages to going to a private school. That's evident. The problem is that this gives more advantages to the rich, leaving the less well off, but equally capable, at a disadvantage.

The use of "rich" in this entire argument is ridiculous. There are a lot of parents who spend quite a considerable percentage of their annual income to send their son/daughter to private schools. I don't see private schools as being less available to that much of society; parents just don't see a difference/don't care what school they send their kids too, which is fine.

It's a fact that private school's send more people to third-level than public school's. If a parent wanted their child to go to college they put them into a private school. That's not to say you have to go to a private school to go to college, but it helps... It's far less to do with money as it is wanting the best for your child...

cson

themont85 wrote:

I hate this argument over the Government paying fee paying schools teachers. Look at it this way, not all private schools chare over the top fees considering the facilities and extra curricular activities.

The Government paying private school teachers wages is a disgrace. Wow, isn't that nice of them that some fee-paying schools don't charge too much? Is it fair on the rest of the population who can't afford to pay private school fees? And really there is no need to answer that.

themont85 wrote:

If you add the cost of paying the core group of teachers to this many parents couldn't afford the fees because they would be ridiculous. Private education would refer to the uber rich and those parents who wish for private education for their children will pay for further Institute type 'schools' where learing is key and extra curricular activities are very much at a minimum.

They couldn't afford it? Oh the shame of it all! Sending little Sorcha and Fionn to a public school. Shocking. Private education I think you will find, refers to both grind schools and fee-paying schools. Generally anywhere you have to pay money to get into. Excludes the majority you see.

themont85 wrote:

As well as this many parents would send their children through the public system putting further strain on this service because the Government would still pay these teachers and the extra schools needed would put a further cost on the taxpayer.

lol. But they'd have all the fee-payng school teachers to help! Sure they pay them anyway!

themont85 wrote:

Imagine if VHI healthcare was stopped tomorrow the public health system simply couldn't cope!

Do the doctors in the blackrock clinic ét al have their salaries paid for by the Govt.?

JC 2K3

xha1r wrote:

If there are no accurate league tables, how can you say private schools don't get better results? You can't.

You can't say private schools do. I withdraw the remark on the basis of semantics.

xha1r wrote:

This "separation from the lower classes" argument is foolish and untrue.

Honestly, it's not. You're foolish if you don't think there's any sense of elitism in this country.

xha1r wrote:

Why not? What's wrong with paying to go to school? Nothing.

Because not everyone can afford it. That's all there is to it that makes it wrong.

xha1r wrote:

One reason students do well in private school's is because they appreciate their parents paid money for them to go there and they don't want to waste it. While in a public school one of the reason's for higher drop out rates (I'm assuming here, as I've rarely heard of someone in a private school dropping out) and worse results is because it's free - nobody is affected except the person leaving.

Firstly, kids in private schools in a lot of cases aren't all that appreciative of their parents spending money on them.

Secondly, ever think that coming from a well off background means that your parents will be more likely to encourage you to go to college and not entertain the notion that you might not want to? Private schools just group all these sort of people together. The school doesn't turn more people into college goers, it simply attracts students from backgrounds that are far more likely to be encouraged to go to college.

xha1r wrote:

People pay for better health care do they not? I'd say this is more important than education, but you probably haven't thought about that...

Yes, and the two tier health system is wrong also.

SamHamilton

The use of "rich" in this entire argument is ridiculous. There are a lot of parents who spend quite a considerable percentage of their annual income to send their son/daughter to private schools. I don't see private schools as being less available to that much of society

I consider my family as a family of moderate means. We don't struggle to make a living but we're not wealthy enough to have all the luxuries. Still, my parents would not have been able to afford to send me to a private school. My family is an average family - not poor and not rich - and is probably similar to the majority of Irish households. The fact that my family couldn't afford to send me to a private school shows that they ARE less available to a considerable part of society.

parents just don't see a difference/don't care what school they send their kids too, which is fine.

This is not true. Just because they don't have loads of money doesn't mean they're idiots! My parents know full well that private schools offer better facilities and that I would have been able to avail of the wide range of subjects they offer there. They wanted to send me but they just didn't have the €€€ to do so. "parents just don't see a difference/don't care what school they send their kids too, which is fine."[/ This is extremely insulting.

cson

xha1r wrote:

It's a fact that private school's send more people to third-level than public school's. If a parent wanted their child to go to college they put them into a private school.

So in order for a child to succeed and go third level they must have private education? Further proves JC 2K3s argument that it is indeed a class based system.

xha1r wrote:

That's not to say you have to go to a private school to go to college, but it helps... It's far less to do with money as it is wanting the best for your child...

Ah now we're talking, we don't have to go to private schools but hey, if you're parents have the money, then go. You get a better shot at third level. Apparently.

My parents I'm sure want the best for me, can they afford to send me to a private school? No.