Money = better education?

thefinalstage

College costs a lot of money and people with money send their children to private schools.

The parents are use to paying fees for their kids to go to school so they pay for college. That is why more people from private schools go to college. That and people who go to public schools are often exposed to thing like apprenticeships more than their social counterparts in fee paying schools.

eZe^

JC 2K3 wrote:

No, I my points are the following:
-Private schools don't get better results, it just seems that way as a higher per centage go to college. There are no accurate league tables available in the first place and half the time the "great results" of private schools are all just media influenced exaggeration.(not talking about grind schools here)
-Some public schools have great facilities and charge no fees, and some private schools have none and the price is just paying for prestige and seperation from lower classes.
-The amount of money your parents have should not determine what type of school you go to. Whether paying money means a better education or not is irrelevant, people should not be denied access to certain schools just because they can't afford it.(or at the very least, private schools should have NO support from the government)


Why the need to pay the money in the first place? The attitude of "most people can afford it, therefore it's ok" is flawed. The fact they offer scholorships simply shows they think they're superior to other schools. And it's not about who's a snob or not, I know many people from private schools who are lovely people, but the fact is that charging for an education is wrong and the perception that going to a private school is better is wrong.

From my experience, all my friends who go to public school would have benefitted much much more than the community schools they attend. They will openly admit that. Although the schools in question are Rochestown College and St. Peters . But all jokes aside, I personally feel that you get a better education in a private school. Therefore for me it is worth the money (not that I pay), so Im sure alot of other parents believe it is worth sending there children to private schools.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, you think that public schools are just as good as private schools, fair enough. But its unfair to say people who send there children to private schools only do so for prestige, they do so because they believe its a better education, and for alot of people it GENUINELY is a better education. Not an illusion.


Unfair, most definitely, but the world is an unfair place man. Im sorry if I offended anyone, but everyone has their own opinion and we are all entitled to that!

Agri_trust

thelastangryman wrote:

College costs a lot of money and people with money send their children to private schools.

The parents are use to paying fees for their kids to go to school so they pay for college. That is why more people from private schools go to college. That and people who go to public schools are often exposed to thing like apprenticeships more than their social counterparts in fee paying schools.

You dont have to go to a private school to go to college!! My school isnt private, I only know 6 girls out of 120 that arnt leaving wexford to go to college in another county.

None of my classes have over 20 in them and we have a massive libary, brand new computers and the only sport facilitie we dont have is a pool, we have our own gym and everything. Theres the odd one or two teachers that shouldnt be teaching but you have that every where. Its just management of state funds really and fund raising really.

themont85

cson wrote:

The Government paying private school teachers wages is a disgrace. Wow, isn't that nice of them that some fee-paying schools don't charge too much? Is it fair on the rest of the population who can't afford to pay private school fees? And really there is no need to answer that.

If all private school teachers were paid by the pupils this would increase the gap between the public and private system. Look at it this way the institute pays their teachers out of the loop of the public system and we all know that if any institute like facility some of the best teachers would leave the public sector for the better oppertunities.

cson wrote:

They couldn't afford it? Oh the shame of it all! Sending little Sorcha and Fionn to a public school. Shocking. Private education I think you will find, refers to both grind schools and fee-paying schools. Generally anywhere you have to pay money to get into. Excludes the majority you see.

Sorry, I attended a fee paying schools and my parents were not 'rich'. If teachers salarys were include my parents couldn't afford to send me, simple as. The fees would be astronomical. Look at the Institute their fees are something over 6,000 I think. If you added the cost of extra curricular, which the Institute provides at a bare minimum. I resent you attitude about parents sending their 'Sorcha and Fionn' to fee paying schools, this repersents a complete misunderstanding of parents who make sacrafices to do this.

cson wrote:

lol. But they'd have all the fee-payng school teachers to help! Sure they pay them anyway!

Add the cost of facilities ect which are catered for in school fees and you have an increased cost to the taxpayer.

I also think that paying for education doesn't gurantee results. Education is a two way thing and if you listen you get ahead. Looking at some public schools it is hard to distinguish betwwen public and private because they are run better and have a more driven focus. There is a reason why a school is popular and it doesn't always come down to whether you pay, for instance paying for Blackrock College would probably get the same standard of education as Colaiste Eoin and similarily between Loreto Foxrock and Muckross.

eimear89

I completely disagree that money equals better education. I don't go to a private school. My father is a farmer, so we aren't that well-off. But that doesn't mean that I haven't gotten a good education. Both of my sisters who went to the same school that I did have Cambridge degrees, which last time I checked was the third best university in the world. I think it largely depends on the student themselves to make the best of the education they get. I hear my classmates complain about my school, claiming the teachers are useless. These are the same people who don't bother opening a book and pay no attention to the teacher and get their parents to send them for grinds in every subject. Maybe if people made a bit more of an effort they'd get on better - they're just too damned lazy. Maybe I'm generalising too much but I really do think if people work hard they'll succeed and it doesn't matter what sort of background you come from.

cabla

TBH unless you have been to both a non-paying school and a fee paying school you cannot comment. Fee paying = less pupils which = more time spent on each student...non-paying = perhaps better facilities and wider choice of subjects.

xha1r

cabla wrote:

non-paying = perhaps better facilities and wider choice of subjects.

Fee-paying school's are as such so they can use the money to provide good facilities.

cson

themont85 wrote:

If all private school teachers were paid by the pupils this would increase the gap between the public and private system.

Wait a minute......you're saying there is a gap between the standard of public and private education? That my community school education is inferior to your fee paid private education?

themont85 wrote:

Look at it this way the institute pays their teachers out of the loop of the public system and we all know that if any institute like facility some of the best teachers would leave the public sector for the better oppertunities.

All the more reason to abolish fee paying education and have everyone educated on an equal basis where class or wealth cannot affect it. Then its down to the person themselves you see. Money can't save you then.

themont85 wrote:

Sorry, I attended a fee paying schools and my parents were not 'rich'. If teachers salarys were include my parents couldn't afford to send me, simple as. The fees would be astronomical. Look at the Institute their fees are something over 6,000 I think. If you added the cost of extra curricular, which the Institute provides at a bare minimum. I resent you attitude about parents sending their 'Sorcha and Fionn' to fee paying schools, this repersents a complete misunderstanding of parents who make sacrafices to do this.

No need to apologise. But you're failing to understand that you do not reflect the majority of people. Most students in this country go to public schools because they simply don't have the choice. Like me for instance, my parents can't afford to send me to a private school. I wouldn't want to go anyway. You get a better education in a public school imo.

And if the costs were to become too much you know you could actually go a public school. Believe or not, they don't charge money and they accept everyone.

themont85 wrote:

Add the cost of facilities ect which are catered for in school fees and you have an increased cost to the taxpayer.

Increased from what?

themont85 wrote:

I also think that paying for education doesn't gurantee results. Education is a two way thing and if you listen you get ahead. Looking at some public schools it is hard to distinguish betwwen public and private because they are run better and have a more driven focus. There is a reason why a school is popular and it doesn't always come down to whether you pay, for instance paying for Blackrock College would probably get the same standard of education as Colaiste Eoin and similarily between Loreto Foxrock and Muckross.

Hmmm, if paying for education doesn't guarantee results or furthermore as you say yourself the standard is the same, why do you do it? Are you under some sort of delusion that it's better?

The original argument was about the Govt paying private school teachers wages: Its a nonsense and a disgrace.

EdgarAllenPoo

Are there any fee paying schools in Meath or Dublin which have little or no religious ties?

melekalikimaka

GDM wrote:

Are there any fee paying schools in Meath or Dublin which have little or no religious ties?

St. Conleths's College, Clyde Road, Donnybrook

its a family run school

xha1r

GDM wrote:

Are there any fee paying schools in Meath or Dublin which have little or no religious ties?

Yes.

richguy

O.k, lets clear a few things up. Firstly, cson you're an absolute f.ucking looser, get a life and stop being such a bitter tool. It's true! We are better than people with no money and its unfair but thats life. I go to a private school. (a proper private school unlike that eZe guy, 800 a year, phh try 17000 a year excluding yearly donations). I'm going to do a bcomm in UCD, (easily get in with very little work with thanks to the institute whenever I f.ucking feel like it) and then, of course I'm going straight into my dads business where I'll be learning the ropes then taking that bad boy over. Basically I'm going to f.ucking loaded with little or no efford and your f.ucking b.itching and cat fighting can do nothing about it. Nyway I'm going to get into my mini cooper which most likely costs more than most of your houses, ha and driving up to the K club for a round of golf and maybe a gym session with my 120,000 membership. I hope it makes you f.ucking sick!!
But before I go I'll leave you with some of our school senior cup chants.
WE ARE RICH, WE ARE COOL, WE ARE ___________ AND WE RULE, NA NA, NA NA, NA NA, Na NA, OI OI
____________________,__________________, STRONGER, FASTER, RICHER THAN YOU!!!!!!

cson

Excellent, informed debate there from richguy. Let me quote some Jonathon Swift which I learned in my public school;

"You know the price of everything and the value of nothing"

richguy

I look down on the likes of you

cson

I was going to bother replying but then I remembered;

DON'T FEED THE TROLLS

md99

richguy wrote:

O.k, lets clear a few things up. Firstly, cson you're an absolute f.ucking looser, get a life and stop being such a bitter tool. It's true! We are better than people with no money and its unfair but thats life. I go to a private school. (a proper private school unlike that eZe guy, 800 a year, phh try 17000 a year excluding yearly donations). I'm going to do a bcomm in UCD, (easily get in with very little work with thanks to the institute whenever I f.ucking feel like it) and then, of course I'm going straight into my dads business where I'll be learning the ropes then taking that bad boy over. Basically I'm going to f.ucking loaded with little or no efford and your f.ucking b.itching and cat fighting can do nothing about it. Nyway I'm going to get into my mini cooper which most likely costs more than most of your houses, ha and driving up to the K club for a round of golf and maybe a gym session with my 120,000 membership. I hope it makes you f.ucking sick!!
But before I go I'll leave you with some of our school senior cup chants.
WE ARE RICH, WE ARE COOL, WE ARE ___________ AND WE RULE, NA NA, NA NA, NA NA, Na NA, OI OI
____________________,__________________, STRONGER, FASTER, RICHER THAN YOU!!!!!!

somebody sounds insecure.... :rolleyes:

eZe^

Could someone check this guys IP cos its clearly one of the members taking the piss!

melekalikimaka

sigh, i wish i was a mod in lc... open a can of ban on that mofo

xha1r

richguy wrote:

O.k, lets clear a few things up. Firstly, cson you're an absolute f.ucking looser, get a life and stop being such a bitter tool. It's true! We are better than people with no money and its unfair but thats life. I go to a private school. (a proper private school unlike that eZe guy, 800 a year, phh try 17000 a year excluding yearly donations). I'm going to do a bcomm in UCD, (easily get in with very little work with thanks to the institute whenever I f.ucking feel like it) and then, of course I'm going straight into my dads business where I'll be learning the ropes then taking that bad boy over. Basically I'm going to f.ucking loaded with little or no efford and your f.ucking b.itching and cat fighting can do nothing about it. Nyway I'm going to get into my mini cooper which most likely costs more than most of your houses, ha and driving up to the K club for a round of golf and maybe a gym session with my 120,000 membership. I hope it makes you f.ucking sick!!
But before I go I'll leave you with some of our school senior cup chants.
WE ARE RICH, WE ARE COOL, WE ARE ___________ AND WE RULE, NA NA, NA NA, NA NA, Na NA, OI OI
____________________,__________________, STRONGER, FASTER, RICHER THAN YOU!!!!!!

I have a feeling you didn't make the SCT and so, resigned to failure, went to the Institute. You're prob the guy chanting from the sidelines "go Clongowes!" (I'm assuming Clongowes here) like a wannabe. You were prob rejected by the guys actually on that team and are making yourself feel better with that sh1t you're posting.

You can't go to the Institute, do no work and get Commerce. It's not that good a school.

As for your Mini Cooper. Wow, try a Range Rover dickhead.

richguy

Jealousy will get you nowhere!
HA! Look at the state of you and that bunch of culties!!!!! Jealousy will get you nowhere.

Attractive Nun

TBH unless you have been to both a non-paying school and a fee paying school you cannot comment.

That's just silly. People can form opinions on things about which they have no direct experience - sure, some people might be more 'qualified' than others to comment, but adding your own experiences in public or private schools or just using simple logic can add a lot to the discussion.


My thoughts:
I think it's pointedly obvious that a private school will, in general, provide a better education than a public one. They simply have to, or they would find it very difficult to survive. However, I think the difference between private and public schools in educating the student is exagerrated greatly.

In my experience (I went to a public school), the two most important things that can affect the student's ability to get a good leaving cert and get into whatever third level course he/she wants to are the quality of the individual teacher and the general atmosphere surrounding the student. Private schools will, I would imagine, tend to attract slightly better teachers given that such teachers will probably prefer to teach in 'better' schools, but since all these teachers are paid by the government (I'm assuming at the same rate of pay), the difference is unlikely to be that substantial. And I think it's important to remember that different students react to teachers in different ways; in certain subjects an experienced, greatly intelligent and articulate teachers who believes in 'real education' might benefit some students, while in others a nervous trainee teacher who simply hands out reems of notes for students to learn off might actually be of more benefit for taking the leaving. So I don't think the standard of teaching would be that different between private and public schools - and it is in any case probably close to impossible to quantify.

The general 'atmosphere' of the student's environment is probably another important issue. For whatever reason, students from richer families will tend to be more focussed on the leaving cert than others, I would think. In public schools, it follows that there are more students who simply don't want to be there and have little interest in study. This can lead to indiscipline in classrooms which can really affect other students' education. It can lead to an atmosphere where it's considered 'nerdy' or whatever to spend too much time studying. In certain cases, there are students who can't find a suitable place to study, even at home. I think that's probably the main advantage private schools have over public schools, in that it is easier for students to get into the necessary mindset for getting a good leaving. At the same time, however, in most cases there should be no reason why any student - with some determination - shouldn't be able to achieve their educational potential wherever they study.

So I do think it is easier for private school students to get a good education. The extent to which this is true is probably over-imagined simply due to the fact that people see figures like €4,000 per year or whatever and are shocked. It's probably worth remembering that most of that figure will go into building sports facilities, the building itself and a host of other things which (although their influence on the overall development of the student shouldn't be forgotten) are hardly crucial in getting a good leaving cert. I'm generally a fan of the market and privatisation, I should admit, so I'm hesistant to criticise the existence of private schools. The structure of the CAO does pit students against each other to a great extent, however, so I think a measure of fairness does have to be upheld in the system. But ultimately I do think the final decider in what makes a good student is the student themselves, be it through hard work, talent or sheer determination. At the end of the day, there is no reason why any teenager with the will, a textbook, a quiet place to study and a teacher to explain things when necessary shouldn't be able to get whatever they are capable of in the leaving cert. At the very bottom rung of the public school system, there are undoubtedly a few people who don't have some of these things - and that is a problem which needs to be, and is being, resolved. Aside from these people, I don't think there's all that much wrong with the structure of our education system and if people would stop complaining about the advantages of privately schooled students and just get on with their own education then there are very few excuses for anyone to get whatever education they want.

md99

xha1r wrote:

I have a feeling you didn't make the SCT and so, resigned to failure, went to the Institute. You're prob the guy chanting from the sidelines "go Clongowes!" (I'm assuming Clongowes here) like a wannabe. You were prob rejected by the guys actually on that team and are making yourself feel better with that sh1t you're posting.

You can't go to the Institute, do no work and get Commerce. It's not that good a school.

As for your Mini Cooper. Wow, try a Range Rover dickhead.

lmao @ 'richguy's Mini Cooper...wow...

md99

richguy wrote:

Jealousy will get you nowhere!
HA! Look at the state of you and that bunch of culties!!!!! Jealousy will get you nowhere.

Furthest right richguys' girlfriend? If so he's doing well for himself..

richguy

richguy wrote:

Jealousy will get you nowhere!
HA! Look at the state of you and that bunch of culties!!!!! Jealousy will get you nowhere.

"de boy" on the right has boobies.

cson

md99 wrote:

Furthest right your girlfriend? You're doing well for yourself...

Nope, all friends at my grad mass.

Richguy, Ah the oul personal attacks on my bebo! Gotta love them. See I don't hide behind anything and I'm not ashamed of who I am. Unlike you for instance.

richguy

I have nothing worthwhile to contribute so I'll just get my coat

JackKelly

Right, more bannings. This thread is getting locked. If anyone really want it reopened, PM me

xha1r

Nice investigative work. Surprises are nice though, aren't they? Getting a car for your 19th is pretty sweet.

And a Range Rover is a man's car by the way. Not a bitch's like your Mini Cooper.

JackKelly

Right, as a few people have asked, I'm reopening this thread for strictly ON TOPIC discussion. No personal insults.

Anymore messing and it's getting closed again...for EVER!. Don't feed trolls, just report the post and they'll be .... dealt with.

cson

Right so, SamHamiltons original question was > "Money = Better Education"

A couple of things I take from it are;

1: Education: To me its a whole load of things, personal development, learning, social skills and a whole lot more.

2: Leaving Cert: Money may buy you a better leaving cert imo but it doesn't buy you a better education.

I think its important to class the things we are discussing too, you have;

Private Schools - Clongowes, Blackrock etc

Grind Schools - Institute, Yeats etc

Public Schools - Gaelscoils, Community Schools etc

So basically it boils down to the quality of (i) Education, (ii) Leaving cert at each type of school and from that one can decide whether or not money equals a better education.

My opinion: It may equal a better leaving cert but not a better education.