Money = better education?

SamHamilton

We should also get rid of expensive cars, because that's not fair, if Anto the pillhead can only afford to run a cinquecento, then by god we should force everyone else to. thats only fair.

Putting cars and education in the same boat. Nice. Education is a right. Cars are a luxury.

Tomlowe

luxury cars are a luxury, so too is luxury education. I dont think we should stop giving out free education/health etc, but i do think we should stop trying to beat everyone down to the same basic level.

Killaqueen!!!

JC 2K3 wrote:

I feel for you.


What are you basing that on?

I dunno if you were sarcastic or not on that first comment but thank you .

I'm basing that on the fact that i have friends all around dublin who go to public schools and from what I've heard, they get a worse education than I do. These schools are in Knocklyon, Tallaght, Swords, Greenhills, Cabra, kilnamanagh, etc. I'm not saying my friends are stupid but I can tell that the edcuation is worse.

Also, take a look at the average grades from fee paying schools, and the average grades from public schools and you will see the difference.

It depends on the person though. I think that I would do all the same if I went to a public school.

JC 2K3

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

Also, take a look at the average grades from fee paying schools, and the average grades from public schools and you will see the difference.

That's been addressed thoroughly in this thread. And please tell me where I can obtain a list of the average grades from every school in the country.

JC 2K3

Tomlowe wrote:

luxury cars are a luxury, so too is luxury education. I dont think we should stop giving out free education/health etc, but i do think we should stop trying to beat everyone down to the same basic level.

Why should someone who hasn't earned a luxury education be entitled to one?

(If you missed my last post btw, read it)

cson

@Tomlowe: I certainly don't think its beating everyone down to the same level. My ideal wold be of an education system that is of a high standard but the same across the board. That is that wealth or background make no difference.

Theres a lot of negative thinking "it can't be done we're a capitalist state" etc etc, I say why not change it? Why not incorporate some socialist principles into our education system? Why can't Ireland be the standard bearers of educatio in the world?

jaydigity

cson wrote:

Theres a lot of negative thinking "it can't be done we're a capitalist state" etc etc, I say why not change it?

Seconded!
"beating everyone down to the same level"? The idea is that it would offer equal opportunities to all, irrespective of wealth. People would still excel, there'd be those who have an aptitude for a particular subject, or work their arse off. The principle is to enable everyone to reach those targets if they want to.

SamHamilton

Why not incorporate some socialist principles into our education system? Why can't Ireland be the standard bearers of educatio in the world?

I'm in as well. We should start a petition and send letters to the President.

xha1r

cson wrote:

@Tomlowe: I certainly don't think its beating everyone down to the same level. My ideal wold be of an education system that is of a high standard but the same across the board. That is that wealth or background make no difference.

Theres a lot of negative thinking "it can't be done we're a capitalist state" etc etc, I say why not change it? Why not incorporate some socialist principles into our education system? Why can't Ireland be the standard bearers of educatio in the world?

Why not introduce world peace?

ZorbaTehZ

xha1r wrote:

Why not introduce world peace?

Idd, it seems this thread is where all the irrational idealists hang out.

SamHamilton

Why not introduce world peace?

Idd, it seems this thread is where all the irrational idealists hang out.

It's people like you that prevent world peace.

xha1r

SamHamilton wrote:

It's people like you that prevent world peace.

Oh really, how's that?

And to be perfectly honest, I couldn't give a sh*t what I do as long as I'm alright.

SamHamilton

Oh really, how's that?

By assuming it's impossible.

xha1r

SamHamilton wrote:

By assuming it's impossible.

Where did I say that?

I hate people that assume. I really do.

JC 2K3

xha1r wrote:

Oh really, how's that?

And to be perfectly honest, I couldn't give a sh*t what I do as long as I'm alright.

Heh, that moral standpoint seems all good and logical, but it's rather hard to implement without seeming hypocritical and the very concept fallable.

I tried it, and apply it to a certain extent in my life, but in the real world we are all human and humans generally accept that equal oppertunity from birth is the root of all logic in ethical issues.

And anyway, the mere fact that you are arguing in this thread seems to be you wanting to justify your lack of regard for such equality, why the need to justify it if you could have just said you didn't care as long as you were all right in the first place?

JackKelly

the topic at hand people!

fionated7

it may provide a better education in the sense better conditions, facilities, teachers and so on but does not determine a student's level of achievement in my opinion.

themont85

cson wrote:

Theres a lot of negative thinking "it can't be done we're a capitalist state" etc etc, I say why not change it? Why not incorporate some socialist principles into our education system? Why can't Ireland be the standard bearers of educatio in the world?

Why change something that will cost more and deliver the same class system which exists everywhere.

I only hope that after college your socialist idealogy will have been erased by the reality of the world we live in.

cson

^

Exhibit A of the narrow minded, negative thinking that permeates through some of the posts in this thread.

What do you care of my "socialist ideals" as you put it? Do you feel threatened by them? Are you afraid that someday wealth won't matter in education?

sxcbbz

it is tru hunis!!!

~~~~~~lOoF yHoO!~~~~~~

XxXxXxMwAhXxXxXxLoVsYaXxXxXxBeXyXxXxXx

melekalikimaka

if there was no private school, public school would have nothing to aspire to...not in the arrogant way but i find that private will in GENERAL have better facilities and hugely improved teacher/student relationships(no jokes please). I find that(from my experience) your treated more as a equal than a child.

themont85

cson wrote:

^

Exhibit A of the narrow minded, negative thinking that permeates through some of the posts in this thread.

What do you care of my "socialist ideals" as you put it? Do you feel threatened by them? Are you afraid that someday wealth won't matter in education?

Socialism/Communism doesn't work as shown in countless countrys that I could name. I think your head is so far up your arse that you would do something so ideotic on a point of principle, which would cost more.

BTW I think it should be pointed out that parents pay their taxes which includes an option of free education. These parents have already paid for teachers salarys. Excess money that amounts fro fee paying schools not receicing grants is poured into the free system helping the education system.

It is not a perfect system but one which does give an oppertunity for those willing to learn.

cson

themont85 wrote:

Socialism/Communism doesn't work as shown in countless countrys that I could name. I think your head is so far up your arse that you would do something so ideotic on a point of principle, which would cost more.

BTW I think it should be pointed out that parents pay their taxes which includes an option of free education. These parents have already paid for teachers salarys. Excess money that amounts fro fee paying schools not receicing grants is poured into the free system helping the education system.

It is not a perfect system but one which does give an oppertunity for those willing to learn.

Top right of the drop down menus, click 'sys', when it drops down go to the very end and click 'thunderdome', you'll find the fight you're looking for in there.

Im not going to bother quoting you ad finitum and rebuting your foolish arguments. Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference.

themont85

cson wrote:

Top right of the drop down menus, click 'sys', when it drops down go to the very end and click 'thunderdome', you'll find the fight you're looking for in there.

Im not going to bother quoting you ad finitum and rebuting your foolish arguments. Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference.

Haha, yes a fool who got a first on this very subject in college but hey you obviousely know more than I do!:D

JC 2K3

themont85 wrote:

Socialism/Communism doesn't work as shown in countless countrys that I could name. I think your head is so far up your arse that you would do something so ideotic on a point of principle, which would cost more.

Socialism and Communism are two completely different things though. I mean there are some socialist policies in place here already, and looking at who got elected, it looks like there'll be more socialist policy on the way.

themont85 wrote:

BTW I think it should be pointed out that parents pay their taxes which includes an option of free education. These parents have already paid for teachers salarys. Excess money that amounts fro fee paying schools not receicing grants is poured into the free system helping the education system.

Now that's a good point, however, the economics of the situation aren't everything.

One of my main arguments against private schools is that it segregates lower and middle class children. The main point is not really how good the education is, but the segregating effect it has.

E92

I went to a fee paying school, not a grind 'school' for all of my 14 years in school. Its a school where the 'image' was key, we had to wear uniforms during the exams, because heaven help us if our school could even be seen to let us not wear a uniform. I had the most useless Irish and English teacher for my Leaving Cert, 2 German teachers cause the one that thought me during school time used out of date German, and was in spite of being completely fluent in German completely unable to impart his knowledge of the language to us. He would refuse point blank to tell us what a word meant if you were stuck. Fortunately the other German teacher came to the rescue after school time,along with actually telling us what words meant auf Deutsch, that teacher loved using lots of modern words and modern German, and was up for a bit of a laugh too. That teacher was fantastic.I had a lazy Accounting teacher too, but that problem was solved by going to Kev O'Callaghan in Bruce, and as I mentioned in the Accounting thread, the whole of Cork seems to go to Kev for Accounting grinds.

I did Maths, Physics and Business in the schoool, and while I didnt like Business, I had a great teacher, and brilliant Physics and Maths teachers.

So overall, I did well with my teachers in that school, there are some useless teachers, and some amazing teachers in my school, and plenty of good ones. We seem to have more good ones than bad ones though. I would say that my school was a lot better than going to a non fee paying school alright. We do have better facilities than a non fee paying school alright I think.

I dont think you can call a grinds school better than a normal school though. I was told by a few teachers that what happens if you go to a grinds school is that when you get to college, because you're so used to being forced to do study and stuff, that you go completely wild and find the course impossible, because you don't have someone to spoonfeed you anymore. Apparantly the number of drop outs from people who went to grinds schools is disproportionally high.

If people are too lazy, then thats their problem, thats what annoys me about grinds schools really, that they can(and usually do) get people who just dont bother to work. As my old pair kept telling me its not their Leaving Cert, its MY Leaving Cert, and if I wanted to work at it, then they were all for it, but if I didnt then that wasnt their problem, cause they did their LC already. Like in my school I knew a fair few people who left at the start of the year, most were lazy, and went because they reckoned grinds schools would solve all their problems.

If people go because they got rubbish teachers, because they'll work hard whether they are in a grinds school or not, or because they are repeating etc then I'm all for people going to them and have no problems with it. And in my experience, having gone to 2 different Grinds schools, one because I'm doing Applied Maths outside of school,and the other for a grind in Accounting, they have unreal teachers.

So to answer the question directly, yes, more money gets you better RESULTS, but no, I dont believe you get a better EDUCATION for it sometimes. In short I do think going to a fee paying school, which essentially a public school(though not a public school the way the English mean the term) but the taxpayer doesnt pay the Capitation Grant that they pay every other school, is worth going to. We had to keep the same hours as everyone else, the teachers are paid by the department of Education etc. In my experience, the reputation my school has, which is that of academic achievement is well deserved. We had the facilities, like some teachers used the internet to show us online demos of this and that for instance, and there was something no money can buy, an atmosphere productive to learning when in the classroom, because for the most part, the students whilst very relaxed, used to listen, well at least they didnt disrupt the teacher(too much ) when they wanted to get work done .


Its inevitable that some public schools are better than others, in the same way some grinds schools are better than others. Two of the best schools in Cork are Saint Angelas and Coláiste An Phiarsaig, neither is a private school.

JC 2K3

Can someone please explain to me what the phrase "better facilities" actually means?

Like, I think most public schools have computer rooms and the internet.

And most have an adequate sports hall.

And unless they're really unfortunate, they'll have labs and the necessary equipment to perform experiments.

Like, what more do you want?

themont85

JC 2K3 wrote:

Can someone please explain to me what the phrase "better facilities" actually means?

Like, I think most public schools have computer rooms and the internet.

And most have an adequate sports hall.

And unless they're really unfortunate, they'll have labs and the necessary equipment to perform experiments.

Like, what more do you want?

Better coaches, gym facilities, music rooms ect. You will find that fee paying schools would have better equipment for science rooms, language areas before a public school.

I think I'll just agree to disagree with you on this one, you believe in your principals which I can respect but don't agree with:p

cson

Whats wrong with wanting equal opportunities for every student? Do you have something against it?

JC 2K3

But are all those extra facilities really beneficial?

I mean leave sports aside for a second and focus on academics. Do facilities such as these really facilitate learning or are they simply "nice to have"?

(by the way, I know I'm arguing about 3/4 different aspects of private schools vs public schools here, so sorry if my posts are inconsistant)