Why no young Catholics in Ireland

DeVore

I'm not sure why I need a middle-man in the mix....

DeV.

BrianCalgary

ned78 wrote:

As pointed out, to the majority of Ireland's youth, being quoted scripture is yawn inducing - and seems to indicate a lack of self initiative from our perspective. The thread is titled "Why no young Catholics in Ireland" ... which indicates a call to action to find out what's wrong. We're trying to tell you guys, and the same old routine of throwing Bible verses in our face is what we get back. Don't you know it doesn't work, and is part of the reason for declining Church attendance?



Fair play to you. I was in the Legion of Mary for a few years, and did my fair share of Bible Reading - as you will find the majority of Athiests have also done. It's a lonely furrow you're ploughing these days I'm afraid though.

My question to you ned, is have you ever tried a church outside of Catholicism, if not why? and if so which ones and how many and what was your issue with them?

BrianCalgary

DeVore wrote:

I'm not sure why I need a middle-man in the mix....

DeV.

You don't. Christ is available to all. The purpose of a church is to allow Christians to grow spiritually and have fellowship with other Christians for the purpose of encouragement and edification.

Salvation is not found in a church, it is found in Christ. Spiritual growth is found in the church.

Owen

BrianCalgary wrote:

My question to you ned, is have you ever tried a church outside of Catholicism, if not why? and if so which ones and how many and what was your issue with them?

Good question. To be honest, I don't see the need for any Church. I don't believe in a higher power, or life after death, or reincarnation.

I think Religion as a whole is holding us back as a species. Can you imagine where we'd be now if the Crusades/Holy Wars/Dark ages hadn't happened? We could genuinely be colonising space by now.

Call Me Jimmy

BrianCalgary wrote:

And no you don't need to siy thorugh a mass to be spiritual. Part of the problem with Ireland that I see as an outsider is that people generally equate Christianity with Catholoicism. That is simply not true.

If Catholicism dissatisfies you, try another denomination. Thera re many good churches listed in the find a church thread, and I encourage you to try one out.

Just to clear it up, I was just using mass as an example. Any form of organised religious gathering could have been used.

Orange69

Lets be honest here..

Religion is dying because people are not as dumb/uneducated as they used to be and thus refuse to believe these ridiculous tall tales..

I look forward to the day that logic, reason and science snuff out religion for once and for all..

philologos

ned78 wrote:

Fair play to you. I was in the Legion of Mary for a few years, and did my fair share of Bible Reading - as you will find the majority of Athiests have also done. It's a lonely furrow you're ploughing these days I'm afraid though.

Funny that you say that because not many of those I know who are atheists have ever given the Bible a chance. Meaning they've never tried to read it for long etc.

Owen

Jakkass wrote:

Funny that you say that because not many of those I know who are atheists have ever given the Bible a chance. Meaning they've never tried to read it for long etc.

You obviously have never had a discussion with most of the Athiests on boards.

philologos

I know a lot on the A&A have a decent knowledge of the scriptures. But a lot of atheists, say around my age just don't. I can't help but feeling that they don't know who God is. Then again, they mightn't see it as relevant to them.

Owen

Jakkass wrote:

Then again, they mightn't see it as relevant to them.

Rearrange the following words into a well known sentence or phrase :
head on nail the hit you've the

Spyral

The catholic church has lost that authority, due to its continued covering up of the abuses of its priests. Its actions showed it was more concerned for its own appearance than the harm being done by the priests.

Again I refer you to the fact that they are but men and that even the apostles abandoned jesus at one point.

I think Religion as a whole is holding us back as a species. Can you imagine where we'd be now if the Crusades/Holy Wars/Dark ages hadn't happened? We could genuinely be colonising space by now.

you have to be kidding. Without the jesuits astronomy would be years behind not to mention other things.

Owen

Spyral wrote:

you have to be kidding. Without the jesuits astronomy would be years behind not to mention other things.

One word. Gallileo.

DeVore

"Again I refer you to the fact that they are but men and that even the apostles abandoned jesus at one point."

Precisely my point. Why do I need middle men? Spirtual growth my *ss too, from what i have seen its more like "bank balance growth".

I'm spiritual and reasonably moralistic but I find the idea of being "guided" to spiritual enlightenment or growth by people who are just as human and mortal as I kinda odd as a concept.

Btw, generally not a good idea to lump agnostics and atheists in together. They aren't really groupable given that one believes in some form of higher power and, well, the other doesnt.

DeV.

bug

Spyral wrote:

Why are there sow few young catholics ?

I mean anyone in the 18-25 age group who is a catholic is gonna have a hard time finding a spouse considering that so few people attend mass. It's one of my major concerns with religion in Ireland at the minute.

Any thoughts ?

I think people like to get married in the eyes of God.
People still believe in Christ and God, just not in the catholic church as an entity in itself.

Sleepy

BrianCalgary wrote:

I would like to ask, because your post seems to bear this out, are you saying that well educated people are not Christian because they are too rational to be? In other words only the uneducated will embrace Christianity?

If condensed to such an extent, yes. HOWEVER, I accept that many extremely intelligent people take the 'leap of faith' to believe in religions for many varied reasons (though imho, mostly stemming from a desire to believe or a fear of the unknown).

There is no logical reason to believe in any deity (just as there's no logical reason to believe in the lack of one) and as such, I believe more educated populations who have less need of the spiritual crutch provided by religion in times of poverty are disinclined to follow the teachings of any church.

Sleepy

DeVore wrote:

They aren't really groupable given that one believes in some form of higher power and, well, the other doesnt.

Funny, I'd see those words as having almost the reverse meaning. One group actively believe that there is no form of higher power, whilst the other, without believing it, doesn't rule it out.

Sleepy

Jakkass wrote:

Funny that you say that because not many of those I know who are atheists have ever given the Bible a chance. Meaning they've never tried to read it for long etc.

For most atheists/agnostics, the Bible is utterly irrelevant.

The decision to renounce one's given religion generally starts with the very core belief - that a deity exists. Once this idea is discarded, the institutions built up around that deity and the scriptures associated with him/her/it become nothing more than the writings of someone / some group of people who have founded their writings on a set of axioms that one doesn't accept as true.

As such, quoting scripture at an atheist/agnostic harms rather than furthers your argument.

PDN

ned78 wrote:

Quoting scripture will in no way encourage young people to come to the fold. Just so as you know.

That's strange. Our church quotes Scripture all the time & young people are packing the place out.

PDN

Sleepy wrote:

Didn't the current pope not issue a decree banning this recently?

As an agnostic who was baptised a Catholic by my parents I'd offer this explanation for the turn away from the church in recent years: we've become a wealthy country.

Piety thrives on poverty. When our main pre-occupations in life are the struggles to find/hold onto work, to pay the mortgage/rent, to put food on the table for ourselves and/or our families etc. we have little time for philosophical pondering and go along with what we've has been brought up with. As employment becomes the norm and money more plentiful one spends less time worrying about the base necessities of life and starts to ponder upon the 'big' questions.

Add to this the fact that the majority of our population are now college educated. While there are those in our schools and colleges decrying 'falling standards of education', it is undeniable that the majority of our population are better educated than previous generations (purely from a numerical perspective more of them are finishing school and going onto third level). This not only leads to a better educated population, it also adds to the time one has to question what they've been taught and discuss and debate these things with their peers during their time at college.

Now we get to the part of my argument most people won't like: religion doesn't stand up to logical questioning. Unless one is prepared to take a leap of faith one will dismiss religion.

So, in Ireland at the moment you have a population who have the financial comfort and free time to think about philosophical things with the benefit of an 'educated'* viewpoint. With these benefits this generation is not going to flock to religion.

*While I have many, many issues with the Irish education system, I can't deny that it's better than many others in this world.

As I'm not a Catholic I really don't give a fig what the Pope has banned.

It is true that increased wealth often results in decreased religiosity. However, for different reasons than you give. Increased wealth has not stimulated philosophical thinking in Ireland, but it has produced crass materialism and an obsession with moronic reality TV shows. The population has 'bread & circuses' and this hinders, rather than promotes, any pondering on the biq questions of life.

PDN

Orange69 wrote:

Lets be honest here..

Religion is dying because people are not as dumb/uneducated as they used to be and thus refuse to believe these ridiculous tall tales..

I look forward to the day that logic, reason and science snuff out religion for once and for all..

Actually there are more practising Christians worldwide today than at any previous time in history. However, you are entitled to keep on hoping for the tide to turn.

Owen

PDN wrote:

Actually there are more practising Christians worldwide today than at any previous time in history.

Probably, because the population has expanded. I'd wager there's more Athiests, Buddhists, and Krishnas in the world today than at any previous time in history too.

fatmammycat

PDN wrote:

Actually there are more practising Christians worldwide today than at any previous time in history. However, you are entitled to keep on hoping for the tide to turn.

I wouldn like to see you back that claim up please. I'm a flat out agnostic as are the vast majority of my friends and yet we -most of us -were baptised into the Catholic Faith, ergo we come under the whole Catholic Numbers game, but we are not practising. I think more and more people are opening their eyes up and noticing that A) most religions are mothing more than a crafty tax-free business, and people like Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris an PZ Myers and have made it okay to question the authority that religion has relied on so heavily in the past.
I don't feel it is my place to mock anyone who relies on a god to make him feel whole, but neither do I think my not needing one is anything to be ashamed of.

PDN

ned78 wrote:

Probably, because the population has expanded. I'd wager there's more Athiests, Buddhists, and Krishnas in the world today than at any previous time in history too.

Which is why I would not be so ignorant as to say that atheism, buddhism or hinduism are 'dying out'.

Owen

PDN wrote:

That's strange. Our church quotes Scripture all the time & young people are packing the place out.

Look, no one's saying what you're doing is wrong. But you did ask why there's no young Catholics in Ireland, you asked for answers. We've given our answers as former young Catholics who as you may put it have strayed from the flock. Aren't our answers good enough?

We don't want to be told Condoms are wrong, or to be told sex before marriage is wrong. Until there's a shift in those tenets of the Catholic Church, we won't appreciate Scripture being shoved in our faces to back up those old fashioned (In our eyes) foundations of the faith. Times change, and Religion needs to move with the pace if it is to have any hope of surviving.

Owen

PDN wrote:

Which is why I would not be so ignorant as to say that atheism, buddhism or hinduism are 'dying out'.

This isn't a worldwide discussion though, it's about Ireland. And as the third post stated, one Priest commented that in his Church for a mass devoted to young people studying exams, that there was no one between the ages of 10-40. So there obviously is a decline in young Irish people attending Mass.

Also, as excellent pointed out by fatmammycat, most Athiests were originally baptised as Catholics. I know I was, and am probably still counted on books somewhere as being one. It's very very easy to manipulate stats to suit one's own will.

My Uncle is a Parish Priest, and has been for some time, he can't believe the drop off in young people attending services, but he privately laments the decisions made by the Vatican on issues like Virginity before Marriage, and the refusal to accept Condoms. The Bible was written in a time when Condoms were not available, and it's only man's interpretation that they are against the word of God.

PDN

ned78 wrote:

Look, no one's saying what you're doing is wrong. But you did ask why there's no young Catholics in Ireland, you asked for answers. We've given our answers as former young Catholics who as you may put it have strayed from the flock. Aren't our answers good enough?

We don't want to be told Condoms are wrong, or to be told sex before marriage is wrong. Until there's a shift in those tenets of the Catholic Church, we won't appreciate Scripture being shoved in our faces to back up those old fashioned (In our eyes) foundations of the faith. Times change, and Religion needs to move with the pace if it is to have any hope of surviving.

I certainly didn't ask that question - another poster did.

My point is that churches in Ireland which use Scripture a lot are, almost without exception, growing while the Catholic Church (which uses Scripture less) is declining. Therefore it would seem, to be illogical to blame the Catholic Church's use of Scripture for the decline.

PDN

ned78 wrote:

This isn't a worldwide discussion though, it's about Ireland. And as the third post stated, one Priest commented that in his Church for a mass devoted to young people studying exams, that there was no one between the ages of 10-40. So there obviously is a decline in young Irish people attending Mass.

The OP was about Ireland but, as with most debates on the boards, it has ranged a lot further (Calgary, Canada, for example). Also I was responding directly to a post that said:

I look forward to the day that logic, reason and science snuff out religion for once and for all..

In response to that post it is perfectly logical to point out that worldwide growth in Christianity (and other religions, particularly Islam) is on the increase.

Owen

PDN wrote:

My point is that churches in Ireland which use Scripture a lot are, almost without exception, growing while the Catholic Church (which uses Scripture less) is declining. Therefore it would seem, to be illogical to blame the Catholic Church's use of Scripture for the decline.

So ... let me get this straight. You're comparing the rise in young population in other doctrines, with less history of clerical abuse, and less hypocracy than the Catholic Church, to the absolute farce that sustained this Country for the last few hundred years, where unmarried Mothers were outcast, children were abused, and Mothers of stillborn infants were told their Children were stuck in Limbo?

When you look at the record of the Catholic Church in Ireland, it is easy to see why people would reject their teachings. They have grown tired of the double standards. And the younger population find the rejection of condoms, and sex before mariage farsical in this evolution of society. More younger people find the notion of an invisible God who doesn't say anything even more farsical. And to be told by a believer that because it's in the Bible it must be true, and to have extract upon extract of scripture shoved in our faces to back up those claims, just pushes us further away.

PDN

fatmammycat wrote:

I wouldn like to see you back that claim up please. I'm a flat out agnostic as are the vast majority of my friends and yet we -most of us -were baptised into the Catholic Faith, ergo we come under the whole Catholic Numbers game, but we are not practising. I think more and more people are opening their eyes up and noticing that A) most religions are mothing more than a crafty tax-free business, and people like Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris an PZ Myers and have made it okay to question the authority that religion has relied on so heavily in the past.
I don't feel it is my place to mock anyone who relies on a god to make him feel whole, but neither do I think my not needing one is anything to be ashamed of.

From the Catholic Education Resource Center:

Christian mission, for example, was essentially flat in the twentieth century. There were only 558 million Christians in the world in 1900 and there will be approximately 2 billion Christians by the middle of this year, a huge increase. But as a percentage of world population, Christianity has been treading water for a century: Christians were 34.5 percent of world population in 1900, and will be 33.1 percent in 2002.

You can read the full article at: http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0010.html
Similar figures can easily be found at Wikipedia or simply by googling the relevant words.

I find it interesting that this figures relate to the 20th Century when a large portion of the globe was under the dominion of Communism, a system that did everything in its power to stamp out Christianity. Despite this the total number of Christians increased fourfold, while remaining essentially static as a percentage of world population.

As to your argument that people such as yourself are counted among the Catholics when you are essentially atheist, remember that many millions of Christians are counted as atheists (in China & North Korea) and as Muslims (in Islamic nations) where open profession of their Christianity would be a death sentence. So any skewing of the figures probably underestimates, rather than overestimates, the Christian population.

Of course numbers of adherents has no relevance whatsoever to the truth of a religion's claims.

I don't feel it is my place to mock anyone who relies on a god to make him feel whole, but neither do I think my not needing one is anything to be ashamed of

And I would not dream of trying to make you ashamed for your non-belief. However, if someone makes the blatantly false claim that religion is dying out, then they do deserve to feel ashamed.

PDN

ned78 wrote:

So ... let me get this straight. You're comparing the rise in young population in other doctrines, with less history of clerical abuse, and less hypocracy than the Catholic Church, to the absolute farce that sustained this Country for the last few hundred years, where unmarried Mothers were outcast, children were abused, and Mothers of stillborn infants were told their Children were stuck in Limbo?

Now you're getting closer to the real reasons for Catholicism's decline in Ireland. The things you just mentioned (not use of Scripture) are why young people are deserting the Catholic Church. More use of Scripture, incidentally, would IMHO have reduced or even avoided altogether some of the abuses you mention.

Cyrus

not use, following it.

catholic priests quote scripture daily at mass, shame a lot of them didnt follow their own teachings

Owen

PDN wrote:

Now you're getting closer to the real reasons for Catholicism's decline in Ireland. The things you just mentioned (not use of Scripture) are why young people are deserting the Catholic Church. More use of Scripture, incidentally, would IMHO have reduced or even avoided altogether some of the abuses you mention.

I do agree with you that these are contributory causes, but Scripture can be interpreted pretty much anyway way you want, and was interpreted through the years to condemn unbaptised stillborn babies to Limbo, to burn heretics, and to fuel crusades.

Sleepy

Didn't the census show a proportionate decline in those describing themselves as being of a faith? I was of the impression that outside of Bible Belt America (not exactly the best advert for Christianity imho) and third world countries, religion was on the decline in percentage terms?

Deadalus

There are alot of interesting points being made in this thread. I agree with alot of them and the reasons for declining attendance in Mass amongst Ireland youth. I would also like to think that parents who are having children now have now seen a society that is no longer dominated by the church and wont start bringing their children to mass every Sunday just because they, themselves, are Catholics. Personnally I don't think you are ready to decide what you actually believe in until you are old enough to have done some research and looked at other aspects and different faiths around the world. Then with the information you have if you feel that you do indeed believe and have faith in religion you should persue it and welcome this utterly huge idea and concept into your life and celebrate it as you wish. The idea of heaven and the afterlife is so huge that it should only be committed to after a person has reached a stage in there lives when they are able to make a concious decision to follow this belief and incorporate it into their lives. Not because they have been brought Mass since they where children and its what they have been brought up to believe. Therefore less young people at Mass and a more mature congregation means there may be less people but those who are there at least truely believe in what they are part of.

Spyral

people like Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris an PZ Myers and have made it okay to question the authority that religion has relied on so heavily in the past.

when presed on his belief of evolution he does admit that its really a matter of faith.

We don't want to be told Condoms are wrong, or to be told sex before marriage is wrong. Until there's a shift in those tenets of the Catholic Church, we won't appreciate Scripture being shoved in our faces to back up those old fashioned (In our eyes) foundations of the faith. Times change, and Religion needs to move with the pace if it is to have any hope of surviving.

So a child doesnt want to be told it cant take sweets off a stranger.. its not what s/he wants its what is good for them.
Additionally if gravity was true 1000 years ago isn't it time it changed and updated itself with the times ?

My Uncle is a Parish Priest, and has been for some time, he can't believe the drop off in young people attending services, but he privately laments the decisions made by the Vatican on issues like Virginity before Marriage, and the refusal to accept Condoms. The Bible was written in a time when Condoms were not available, and it's only man's interpretation that they are against the word of God.

Why what is the teaching on virginity before marrage ? Becasue there is none. We are called to be chaste but the church is forgiving and will marry and ordaine people who are not virgins.

My point is that churches in Ireland which use Scripture a lot are, almost without exception, growing while the Catholic Church (which uses Scripture less) is declining. Therefore it would seem, to be illogical to blame the Catholic Church's use of Scripture for the decline.

There is no logical reason to use scripture alone. Nowhere in the bible does it say to use scripture alone, and also most bible only religons have *less* books in them than a Catholic Bible..

So ... let me get this straight. You're comparing the rise in young population in other doctrines, with less history of clerical abuse, and less hypocracy than the Catholic Church, to the absolute farce that sustained this Country for the last few hundred years, where unmarried Mothers were outcast, children were abused, and Mothers of stillborn infants were told their Children were stuck in Limbo?

Firstly the state didn't help them, the general attitude amongst the people was to 'outcast' women to convents where in MOST cases they would be cared for.
Additionally the rate of child abusers in the clergy has been found to be no more significant than in other professions such as teachers.

catholic priests quote scripture daily at mass, shame a lot of them didnt follow their own teachings

Again I refer you to the fact that they are human, make mistakes and that the collar doenst make them superhuman.

Owen

Spyral wrote:

Why what is the teaching on virginity before marrage ? Becasue there is none. We are called to be chaste but the church is forgiving and will marry and ordaine people who are not virgins.

Of course there's teaching on virginity before Marriage. Sex outside of Marriage is a sin, it's carnal, and base in the eyes of the Catholic Church.

Spyral wrote:

Firstly the state didn't help them, the general attitude amongst the people was to 'outcast' women to convents where in MOST cases they would be cared for.

Where do you think the attitude of the general public came from? That's right, the Pulpit, with Priest ranting and frothing at the mouth about the eternal fires and damnation of hell.

Spyral wrote:

Additionally the rate of child abusers in the clergy has been found to be no more significant than in other professions such as teachers.

Proof of that statistic please?

smashey

Spyral wrote:

Again I refer you to the fact that they are human, make mistakes and that the collar doenst make them superhuman.

They are indeed human and prone to mistakes like all others. These mistakes shouldn't have been covered up, nor should certain priests have been moved away. Whatever about forgiveness, the priests are still subject to the law as is everybody else.

PDN

Sleepy wrote:

Didn't the census show a proportionate decline in those describing themselves as being of a faith? I was of the impression that outside of Bible Belt America (not exactly the best advert for Christianity imho) and third world countries, religion was on the decline in percentage terms?

The census you refer to was, I assume, in Ireland? I seem to remember another poster saying that only 900 people described themselves as atheist, although there has certainly been a decline in religiosity in Ireland due to the falling away from Catholicism. Most other forms of religion in Ireland are increasing quite rapidly (although some of that is due to immigration).

Most of the growth in world population is in the developing world (what used to be called third world countries). There is also massive growth in Christianity in Eastern Europe (where previously atheism was enforced) and in China (where up to 100 million are now Christians).

PDN

ned78 wrote:

I do agree with you that these are contributory causes, but Scripture can be interpreted pretty much anyway way you want, and was interpreted through the years to condemn unbaptised stillborn babies to Limbo, to burn heretics, and to fuel crusades.

Scripture can be misinterpreted to support almost any position, including the proposition that God doesn't exist, if you take it out of context. However, theology and biblical exegesis are recognised academic disciplines that strive to interpret the Bible objectively. Incidentally the Catholic Church has provided some of the best theologians and biblical scholars, but they have not always been heeded by the hierarchy where, in the past, tradition and expediency trumped Scripture when it came to inventing limbo or justifying violence.

Owen

PDN wrote:

Scripture can be misinterpreted to support almost any position

The decision on whether Scripture has been interpreted, or misinterpreted changes over time. I'm sure when the Crusades were happening, they were fully convinced they were doing the right thing by referencing passages in the Bible. In comparisson, the Catholic Church at the moment probably thinks it's doing everything okay at the moment too, and will look back in 50 years with a different viewpoint.

Sangre

PDN wrote:

The census you refer to was, I assume, in Ireland? I seem to remember another poster saying that only 900 people described themselves as atheist, although there has certainly been a decline in religiosity in Ireland due to the falling away from Catholicism.

900 sounds about right but there was a big increase on those who ticked the 'no religion' box. Somewhat a point of contention for the A&A forum on what people should tick (and who is doing the ticking for them).

Sleepy

Based on figures taken from last year's census: http://www.cso.ie/census/Census2006_Principal_Demographic_Results.htm

| 2002 | 2006 | Change | % Changge
Total Number of Christians*|3653749|3915655|261906|7.17%
Total Number of Non-Religious|218886|259084|40198|18.36%
Total Number of Other Religions|44568|65109|20541|46.09%


I've grouped all the following as Christian but am open to correction: Roman Catholic, Church of Ireland (incl. Protestant), Christian (unspecified), Presbyterian, Orthodox, Methodist, Apostolic or Pentecostal, Lutheran, Evangelical, Baptist, Lapset Roman Catholic, Brethren

So, while the number of Christians is technically growing, it's falling as a percentage of population when you look at how much faster the non-religious and 'other' religions are growing. So, while the numbers describing themselves as 'atheist' or 'agnostic' may seem low, it would appear that more of the population are moving away from the Christian faiths. Incredible given the fact that most of the Eastern Europeans (approx 200,000 people) are Catholic or another form of Christian.

robindch

Sleepy wrote:

Incredible given the fact that most of the Eastern Europeans (approx 200,000 people) are Catholic or another form of Christian.

Slightly off-topic, but in my experience, people from Eastern Europe seem to use religion as a tribal marker more than we're used to in Western Europe (northern Ireland notwithstanding). That's why you get quite a high proportion of people from the east who are functionally and ideologically atheist, but will self-describe as christian. Seems to have to do with the traditional linkage in slavic countries between the church and the state, and living alongside muslim countries.

Sleepy

Interesting robindch, because I've often thought that most Irish people use Catholicism in the same fashion. Most Catholics I know disagree with so many of the tenets of their church that their beliefs are actually far closer to different forms of Christianity (e.g. don't believe in transubstantiation, the Vatican's authority on religious issues etc). For most Irish "Catholics" it seems more a brand of republicanism or not being English than a genuine faith in their church.

Tim Robbins

Sleepy wrote:

Interesting robindch, because I've often thought that most Irish people use Catholicism in the same fashion. Most Catholics I know disagree with so many of the tenets of their church that their beliefs are actually far closer to different forms of Christianity (e.g. don't believe in transubstantiation, the Vatican's authority on religious issues etc). For most Irish "Catholics" it seems more a brand of republicanism or not being English than a genuine faith in their church.

A good point which I would agree with. I would say less than 5% of Roman Catholics belief in transubstantiation, the other 95% don't know what it is.

One of the biggest philosophical questions for any human is "Who am I?"

This results in all sorts of identidy branding: nationalism, organised religion with indoctrination etc. All of which one could argue is entirley irrational.

Note: You left out Free Presbyterian in your list. They are a different (and much more fundamenatlist) Church than the Presbyterian Church. You have also left out the Unitarian Church.

PDN

Sleepy wrote:

So, while the number of Christians is technically growing, it's falling as a percentage of population when you look at how much faster the non-religious and 'other' religions are growing. So, while the numbers describing themselves as 'atheist' or 'agnostic' may seem low, it would appear that more of the population are moving away from the Christian faiths. Incredible given the fact that most of the Eastern Europeans (approx 200,000 people) are Catholic or another form of Christian.

I don't find the fall in religiosity in Ireland to be incredible at all. I think it is very natural given the decline of cultural Catholicism. Also, as a Christian, I think that the collapse of nominal adherence to churches is one of the healthiest and most beneficial aspects of the new Ireland.

Tim Robbins

PDN wrote:

I don't find the fall in religiosity in Ireland to be incredible at all. I think it is very natural given the decline of cultural Catholicism. Also, as a Christian, I think that the collapse of nominal adherence to churches is one of the healthiest and most beneficial aspects of the new Ireland.

I think judging by the increase in the amount of suicides, homicides though one could make an argument that people are finding reality without religion a difficult excercise.

I would prefer people move from one religion to another, a religion to reform or people to accept and enjoy reality without religion rather than to be left in a situation when they have no tools to deal with harder aspect of life.

Sleepy

I'm unsure as to how much the suicide rates have increased tbh Tim Robbins, until very recently many suicides would have been put down as 'death by misadventure' or similar on death certs due to the stigma associated with suicide (partially influenced by the Catholic Church tbh). As such, it's very difficult to gauge whether the numbers are increasing or not.

I'm also very skeptical of the notion that a lack of religion is in any way responsible for the high levels of suicide we do have. IMHO, the suicide rate amongst young men in particular is driven by the pressure to succeed and the lack of a defined role for men in modern society (in the sense that for most of us our fathers/grandfathers had the set role of family breadwinner which doesn't exist any more).

Sleepy

Tim Robbins wrote:

Note: You left out Free Presbyterian in your list. They are a different (and much more fundamenatlist) Church than the Presbyterian Church. You have also left out the Unitarian Church.

The list of religions as per the census:

Roman Catholic
Church of Ireland (incl. Protestant)
Muslim (Islamic)
Christian (unspecified)
Presbyterian
Orthodox
Methodist
Apostolic or Pentecostal
Buddhist
Hindu
Lutheran
Evangelical
Jehovah's Witness
Baptist
Jewish
Pantheist
Agnostic
Latter Day Saints (Mormon)
Atheist
Quaker (Society of Friends)
Lapset Roman Catholic
Baha'i
Brethren
Other stated religions
No religion
Not stated

Presumably the Unitarians and Free Prebyterians are grouped into the 'Other stated religions' which I included in the 'Other religions' grouping in my table above.

From the numbers of people I know who put down either Jedi or Pastafarian on the census I'm guessing that the numbers would counterbalance one another for the purposes of contrasting the population in terms of Christians / non-religious

Tim Robbins

Sleepy wrote:

I'm unsure as to how much the suicide rates have increased tbh Tim Robbins, until very recently many suicides would have been put down as 'death by misadventure' or similar on death certs due to the stigma associated with suicide (partially influenced by the Catholic Church tbh). As such, it's very difficult to gauge whether the numbers are increasing or not.

I'm also very skeptical of the notion that a lack of religion is in any way responsible for the high levels of suicide we do have. IMHO, the suicide rate amongst young men in particular is driven by the pressure to succeed and the lack of a defined role for men in modern society (in the sense that for most of us our fathers/grandfathers had the set role of family breadwinner which doesn't exist any more).

Well you are right to question my hypotheisis as it is simply an opinion and not one backed by any research.
One point is quite simple: Religion whether it be true or not, provides a emotional crux for people.
* Can't pay the rent - say some prayers
* Can't deal with guilt - go to confession
* Feeling lonely - go to mass
* Need to sing some songs to let the emotions go - go to mass
* Need to be in a nice building with some stain glass windows - go to mass
* Need to hear some philosophical spiel - go to mass

There are countless other benefits to religion.
It serves basic human needs and this is the reason why it is in every society since society began.

Now if people reject the Church they are left with a few gaps to fill.
Personally I fill this by an interest in philosophy, politics, science and in religion (even though I don't participate).

I really like the way Buddhism includes atheists and agnostics, I would like to see Christianity and Catholism go down this road perhaps by separting the supernatural element from the philosophy.

My fear is if humans don't get basic needs, they get depressed. Sometime this basic needs are harder to see.