Why no young Catholics in Ireland

PDN

kelly1 wrote:

There was only one Christian Church up to the time of the great schism of 1054. .

Actually there were quite a few Christian churches prior to 1054, but they kept getting persecuted, tortured & burnt as heretics. What happened in 1054 was that the papacy actually recognised that they were facing another church that was, both numerically and militarily, too strong to kill - so they excommunicated them all instead.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote:

Where do you think the bible came from? It came from the Church of course! Was the Church no longer necessary having written the bible?

I think the protestants would say yes, at least when it comes to new revelations from God.

kelly1 wrote:

Do you not accept that Christ founded a Church founded on Peter against which the gates of Hell would not prevail?

Well obviously I don't. But more importantly protestants don't believe that the Church as you understand it is a true interpretation of Jesus' original message to Peter. Just because they claim authority from Peter doesn't mean they have it, does it?

kelly1 wrote:

How can you dispense with Christ's Church and replace it with the bible?

Quite easily by saying that it isn't Christs church.

kelly1

PDN wrote:

Actually there were quite a few Christian churches prior to 1054, but they kept getting persecuted, tortured & burnt as heretics. What happened in 1054 was that the papacy actually recognised that they were facing another church that was, both numerically and militarily, too strong to kill - so they excommunicated them all instead.

As far a Pope Leo IX was concerned he was head of the eastern patriarchs (bishops). They decided the Pope didn't have any authority over them and decided to separate. There were other catalysts such as the dispute over the Nicene creed, veneration of icons, liturgical practices and celibacy.

CiaranC

kelly1 wrote:

Arathorn, that is exactly what's wrong with the world! People who go against God's will are like children who refuse to listen to the good advice of their parents. We are told as children not to play with knives and of course those children who ignore this advice end up getting cut or worse. God didn't give us the commandments because He's a spoil-sport. He gave us the commandments for our own good. God in His goodness wants nothing but our eternal happiness with Him. He has promised eternal joy to those who love Him. Our sole concern should be with doing God's will and to go against God's will is insanity.
Sin brings punishment in this life, in Purgatory and God forbid, in Hell.

Thats all good and well until you hit upon the realisation that for many (most?) young people today the Catholic definition of God becomes so patently absurd given a little education and a little reasoning that it renders every teaching of Catholicism moot.

People can say 'reform the church' all they like, but science and universal education has let the genie out of the bottle, and it aint ever going back in, not without a return to the dark ages anyway.

Asiaprod

colm-ccfc84 wrote:

I may have held some respect for your view if you were not another delusionist. You are an adult with an imaginery friend, says it all. Religion is everything that I previously stated. But don't worry, I won't waste my time here, I have a a wall to go bang my head off.

Banned for 2 weeks, PM me in 2 weeks if you intend to return to the Christianity forum.

BrianCalgary

Sleepy wrote:

In fairness Brian, that's a pretty narrow view of the world's population. As a generalisation it may stand up, but only just. I for one, certainly don't judge success in financial terms and it wasn't Christianity that taught me to view it otherwise.

Success is as subjective as beauty or truth imho.

You bet it is a generalisation.

kelly1

CiaranC wrote:

...the Catholic definition of God becomes so patently absurd given a little education and a little reasoning that it renders every teaching of Catholicism moot.

What definition would that be? What could possibly be absurd about God?

Michael G

fatmammycat wrote:

I'm a flat out agnostic.

What is a flat-out agnostic? It sounds like a bit of a contradiction, like someone who is vehemently apathetic.

Michael G

ned78 wrote:

As the third post stated, one Priest commented that in his Church for a mass devoted to young people studying exams, that there was no one between the ages of 10-40. So there obviously is a decline in young Irish people attending Mass.

Twenty years ago, his predecessor was saying exactly the same thing. Most people who are brought up as Catholics stop practising it as soon as they have a choice. Later, some come back. These can be divided into those who want to get their children into Catholic schools (though in Dublin, Church of Ireland schools are more fashionable among the upper-middles and aspiring upper-middles) and those who come back out of a rediscovered belief.

Michael G

ned78 wrote:

My Uncle is a Parish Priest, and has been for some time, he can't believe the drop off in young people attending services, but he privately laments the decisions made by the Vatican on issues like Virginity before Marriage, and the refusal to accept Condoms. The Bible was written in a time when Condoms were not available, and it's only man's interpretation that they are against the word of God.

With all due respect to your uncle - if your last sentence reflects his view - much of the Church he serves is built on interpretation of Scripture rather than a literal reading of Scripture itself. You (or he) might call it "man's interpretation", but his Church believes that it is an interpretation guided by the Holy Spirit whom Christ promised to send:

"These things I have spoken to you, while I am still with you. But the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you" (John 14:25-26).

I wonder how old your uncle is. Many priest, nuns and brother who are now in their late fifties or their sixties were young when most people in the Church were excited by Vatican II and almost imagined that all the rules were gone and that faith and the world would never again collide with each other. Their time is gone and they are leaving nothing behind, and they are to be pitied because it is hard for any of us to reject what we believed in passionately when we were young. The Church today is dividing between those who are fading into the secular margins of Anglicanism, and those who want to reclaim Tradition and carry it into the future.

If I am wrong, could you persuade your uncle to put his view here?

Sangre

Vegeta wrote:

yeah that's another thing.

How many of the practising Catholics here have tried other religions or did you just stick with the one your parents chose for you?

The concept of 'trying another religion' always confused me. How can you cherry-picked a supernatural deity or creator. He either exists or he doesn't. If you believe if he exists you should probably follow his beliefs whether you accept them or not. I don't see how people say 'xxxx was the right religion for me'. The religion is either true or it isn't, whether its right for you or not seems kind of redundant.

However if you're talking about divisions of a religion with the same deity then that makes more sense.

Owen

Michael G wrote:

If I am wrong, could you persuade your uncle to put his view here?

He's not got long left to be honest, he's in his 80's, and his health has been failing for years. If I asked him to use a mouse, he would assume I was talking about the rodent variety, and at his late stage in his life, and career, I wouldn't ask him to publically put his opinion online.

Call Me Jimmy

Sangre wrote:

The concept of 'trying another religion' always confused me. How can you cherry-picked a supernatural deity or creator. He either exists or he doesn't. If you believe if he exists you should probably follow his beliefs whether you accept them or not. I don't see how people say 'xxxx was the right religion for me'. The religion is either true or it isn't, whether its right for you or not seems kind of redundant.

However if you're talking about divisions of a religion with the same deity then that makes more sense.

I think that the fact that there have been so many religions and different gods worshipped throughout the history of man is proof that no religion is 'the right one' and that all have been fabricated out of our inability to understand the world around us.
Because of the advances in science we are beginning to understand more and are beginning to release ourselves from the shackles of religion.

Sleepy

kelly1 wrote:

The main reason that most peolple don't practice or leave the faith is that they don't understand it.

I'm sorry but I can't let that one slide. Most people who leave the Catholic Church do so for one of two reasons: they don't believe in any deity or they reject the teachings of the Catholic Church which they don't agree with (i.e. decisions which have been taken by fallible men* using their interpretation of scripture).

*Even if one believes that Jesus was the son of god, while scripture might dictate that these men were being guided by the holy spirit, one must remember that it was these men who claimed that, not Jesus. Ergo, the argument that the bible is perfectly correct because it says so in the bible is a pretty absurd argument.

kelly1 wrote:

What could possibly be absurd about God?

To someone such as myself who's not prepared to take the leap of faith required to believe in any god, the very notion of a deity is absurd. There's no logical basis for a belief in God. For me, and many others, believing anything that has no logical basis is a rather incomprehensible thing. Call me Jimmy puts it quite well when he says that for the non-theistic, religions are something "fabricated out of our inability to understand the world around us."

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote:

What could possibly be absurd about God?

That is a joke right? Kelly even theists accept that the idea of God is absurd (this is normally followed by a "But that doesn't mean its not true..." comment)

The idea that there is a super intelligent, super complex, all knowing entity that just some how exists some where outside the known universe on his own for no reason and has some how always just existed for no reason, who has complete power over all everything and who then decided to create a universe 14 billion light years wide so he can plop one small tiny blue planet down into a the middle of a very average solar system in a very average galaxy, so he can create a rather brittle and badly designed life form called a human, along with a million other species that are seemingly pointless and just around for us to look at and hunt, so he can pick a small tribe of these humans living in a small corner of the Euro-Asia about 6,000 years ago to worship him?

Sorry kelly, that is absurd. But that doesn't mean its not true ...

kelly1

Sleepy wrote:

I'm sorry but I can't let that one slide. Most people who leave the Catholic Church do so for one of two reasons: they don't believe in any deity or they reject the teachings of the Catholic Church which they don't agree with (i.e. decisions which have been taken by fallible men* using their interpretation of scripture).

*Even if one believes that Jesus was the son of god, while scripture might dictate that these men were being guided by the holy spirit, one must remember that it was these men who claimed that, not Jesus. Ergo, the argument that the bible is perfectly correct because it says so in the bible is a pretty absurd argument."

Hello Sleepy, I stand by what I said. People who choose to reject the Church's teachings are rejecting God's laws. Jesus gave the Church the Holy Spirit for guidance. The Spirit isn't given to the laity in the same way that He's given to a bishop. Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would teach the first bishops (the apostles) the whole truth and this same gift is passed on from bishop to bishop. That is why the Church has teaching authority on matters of faith and morals. When you say "their interpretation of scripture", please remember that the bible was written by the Church!

Re the fallibility, yes all men are fallible but the Holy Spirit isn't. It was the Holy Spirit who gave the Truth to the Church.

Am I making any sense. Suppose for a minute that what I say is true. Does it make sense to you?

God bless,
Noel.

Spyral

I'm sorry but I can't let that one slide. Most people who leave the Catholic Church do so for one of two reasons: they don't believe in any deity or they reject the teachings of the Catholic Church which they don't agree with (i.e. decisions which have been taken by fallible men* using their interpretation of scripture).

they possibly dont like the rules or dont understand them. In Ireland most people havent a clue about catechisis (sp) or anything which isnt surprising. Confrimation should be made at 21 and done properly

Zombrex

In my experience it is when people actually do understand the teaching of the Bible or the Church that they leave, out of disgust. This tends to happen in the late teenage or early adult years.

SirHenryGrattan

Ivan wrote: »

Unfortunately or fortunately, whatever way you look at it, there seems to be a definite correlation between rising education levels and dropping religious attendances...

Most of the best schools in Australia and the UK have a religious affiliation to either the Anglican or Catholic Churches so it seems that the better educated and better off are voting with their feet and sending their children to Christian Schools. Why Christian? Well invariably the answer from parents is that secular schools have no values and no discipline.

SirHenryGrattan

The answer to the original question is simple. The culture and values of younger people are totally incompatible with the conservative moral values espoused by religions like Catholicism, Islam, Jewish Orthodox etc. In fact any value system that puts limits or standards on personal behaviour is deeply unpopular with young people devoted to hedonism, rampant promiscuity, binge drinking, heavy drug use and violent behaviour. Trying walking the mean streets of Britain on a Friday and Saturday night. Would you invite any of these people to Sunday Church. Not likely.

PDN

SirHenryGrattan wrote: »

The answer to the original question is simple. The culture and values of younger people are totally incompatible with the conservative moral values espoused by religions like Catholicism, Islam, Jewish Orthodox etc. In fact any value system that puts limits or standards on personal behaviour is deeply unpopular with young people devoted to hedonism, rampant promiscuity, binge drinking, heavy drug use and violent behaviour. Trying walking the mean streets of Britain on a Friday and Saturday night. Would you invite any of these people to Sunday Church. Not likely.

I think that's too simplistic. The forms of religion that are attracting young people (both within Christianity & Islam) tend to be those with the strictest codes of personal behaviour.

robindch

SirHenryGrattan wrote: »

[...] rampant promiscuity [...]

Not an option open to you, one must assume.

SirHenryGrattan

PDN wrote: »

I think that's too simplistic. The forms of religion that are attracting young people (both within Christianity & Islam) tend to be those with the strictest codes of personal behaviour.

Correct. But the numbers are small. The mass of young people have no religious affiliation.

Populations become more conservative as they grow older. The other factor is urbanisation. Rural communities are always more conservative. Rural England votes Tory. Rural Australia votes National. Most of the TDs who represent rural constituencies in Ireland are conservative. Ireland's drift towards secular liberalism started with the rapid urbanisation of the country in the late 70s and 80s. If the country were rural with an older population it would be much more conservative.

bennyblanco

Sorry I haven't read the other posts but my 2cents:
Apart from obviously the people who just don't believe in God.

The bad press the Catholic Establishment has recieved in the last 2 decades alone.I prefer the organ of my faith not to be mired in child abuse scandal after scandal.Or to hear of their mistreatment and manipulation of the weakest and most vulnerable members of our society.

The intolerance endemic in Vatican.Not a good look for modern times.

The hypocrisy of an organisation so rich preaching a life of frugality.Also slightly less than flattering to the better educated and more worldly youth of today.

Anyone with even a basic knowledge of european history may have difficulty reconcilling the churches message with it's actions.over the last couple of hundred years say..


But even forgetting those trifling concerns for me it really has to be the severe lack of craic and joy connotated with Catholicism.Heavy on fear and guilt,not huge on the actual message which is to love and accept and forgive (ourselves aswell as others).

I was raised a catholic and although I do recognise that there are plenty of people doing good work for it and for the world at large,the fact remains,I just don't trust any organised religion that I've come across.Certainly none of the Western ones.
I've no real problem with the idea of Christianity.Jesus reportedly had some great messages.I try and fight the good fight.
It's just once he left up to the humans to run the show?Well that's where the problems started IMO.
For young people today being bombarded from a very early age with idolatrous imagery,is it any wonder that Catholicism is wasting away?
Babies in limbo?What a sick idea.
Perhaps if the church went back to basics and revisited Christ's teachings they might find a more receptive audience(?)
Do the powers that be think that the God/Jesus they're exalting is going to be all smiles if he ever gets back here to see what they've done?
He's gonna old testament the heads off them
*Pow

LolaDub

I think a lot of people leave the church when they become adults through rebellion. The church like parents are an authoritarian institution which you have to follow, providing your parents follow it, regardless of how you feel. I know many people are angry at the church the way they are angry at their parents for various reasons, from being forced into attendance to imposing rules they felt they could not follow to just being disappointed with the whole thing. I think there is a lot rebellion against catholicism on boards too tbh.

When you leave the church, its a much harder decision to come back to it. There is a huge sense of being religious=being uncool in irish society today. I'm 25 and go to the gardiner st gospel mass, its full of young adults and feels a very welcome place. Last year on ash wednesday when i went to work with ashes on my head, i had a day long of slagging from most people there. Had it been that they were slagging a muslim over their traditions and beliefs i think there could be have been a court case on their hands!

Húrin

Fallen Seraph wrote: »

I get the impression that as religion declines as a social aspect in peoples lives here in ireland, young people are getting divided into two groups: those who are apathetic towards religious matters and those who aren't.

Obviously the apathetic aren't going to be (catholic) church goers.

Those who aren't apathetic are the again likely to fall into two groups: atheist/agnostic/some alternate spiritual path and christians who read the bible.

Again, obviously, those who aren't bible reading christians will not be catholics.

I also get the impression that there is currently quite the trend for those who believe and read the bible, without preconceptions, to come to the conclusion that catholicism's teachings aren't necessary for salvation. So the catholic church loses patronage in this field too.

I think that this is a good summary of the situation. I think that the rigid format of the Catholic mass no longer appeals to the individualist self-image of most young people.

Sleepy wrote: »

Piety thrives on poverty. When our main pre-occupations in life are the struggles to find/hold onto work, to pay the mortgage/rent, to put food on the table for ourselves and/or our families etc. we have little time for philosophical pondering and go along with what we've has been brought up with. As employment becomes the norm and money more plentiful one spends less time worrying about the base necessities of life and starts to ponder upon the 'big' questions.

Atheism thrives on comfort and prosperity. That's why it is found entirely in the privileged parts of the world. I honestly don't think that most young people are atheists because they have engaged in thought any more critically than previous generations did.

People still worry about base necessities. The difference is that the forces of consumerism have most people thinking that new clothes every month and a car are base necessities.

Now we get to the part of my argument most people won't like: religion doesn't stand up to logical questioning. Unless one is prepared to take a leap of faith one will dismiss religion.

Religion does stand up to logical questioning, if you consider personal experience to be relevant to your beliefs (I think it's ridiculous to declare it irrelevant and unreliable). Faith is a core component of religion; nobody has ever pretended that it can be mathematically proven.

I think the 'logic' reason for the decline of faith you have given is just a cover, since there is abundant evidence that Irish people have gained great faith in equally illogical notions like progress. If people have an experience of faith they will probably become faithful. Most young people have been given little chance to have that, and have been pressured away from trying to experience it, because it is not in the financial interests of business.

I go to a church - Grosvenor Baptist, Grosvenor Road, Dublin 6 if you ever wish to visit - with plenty of young people in it, and plenty of doctors and other well educated proffesionals. However few others among the young people are Irish, that is most of them are foreign students. This indicates that religion does not have a problem standing up to logical thinkers, but that Irish culture has a problem being open about religious beliefs.

Húrin

hairyheretic wrote: »

How about your own sense of right and wrong? After all, thats what all of us have, regardless of what has influenced its formation.

I don't think you can disregard the fact that God is the author of conscience. However, if you don't believe in him, it makes the issue of whether to follow your conscience or self-interest a rather arbitrary choice.

ned78 wrote: »

I think Religion as a whole is holding us back as a species. Can you imagine where we'd be now if the Crusades/Holy Wars/Dark ages hadn't happened?

Wars for other reasons probably. I doubt there would be much of a scientific advance given how recent the science vs religion dichotomy is, the fact that Descartes was a Christian, etc. What good would colonising space do us anyway?

ned78 wrote: »

We don't want to be told Condoms are wrong, or to be told sex before marriage is wrong. Until there's a shift in those tenets of the Catholic Church, we won't appreciate Scripture being shoved in our faces to back up those old fashioned (In our eyes) foundations of the faith. Times change, and Religion needs to move with the pace if it is to have any hope of surviving.

What you want to be told isn't relevant to what is actually right and wrong. Isn't one of the foundations of your argument that Catholicism is false, that it is based on what people used to want to hear? Making an appeal based on what you want to hear doesn't help your implied claim that you are on the side of the facts!

ned78 wrote: »

Humans are worried about dying - religion gives everlasting life.
Humans mourn lost loved ones - religion promises to reunite you with them.
Humans have bad people upsetting their lives - religion sends the bad people to hell.

And etc, ad nauseum. I find it all too convenient to be the truth, and more likely to be made up by people living through a dark period in history to give each other hope, when persecution, early death through disease, and a general short life expectancy was order of the day.

Besides, I have difficulty imagining that you would be any more likely to consider Jesus Christ to be your saviour even if any of the Christian churches endorsed pre-marital sex. That is the foundation of the faith.

Prohibitions on condoms and other lifestyle advice is the result of the faith, not the foundation of it.

I don't see how Christianity changing theology simply due to changing fashions will help its credibility as an explanation for eternal reality. It's not a business that needs to respond to changing market demands.

BTW, just to clarify, my post is talking about Christianity in general, not Catholic church in particular.

Flamed Diving

This is why I am very suspicious of these surveys we see where 90% of Irish people believe in God. Very few Irish people I know in Ireland believe this. Perhaps the way the question is phrased might be the key, leading people to say 'Errah, I guess there has to be something behind it all' meaning a YES in the data collection, which I would not consider the same as saying 'Yes, I believe in God'.

Húrin

Wicknight wrote: »

That is a joke right? Kelly even theists accept that the idea of God is absurd.

Absurdity is not an objective quality. It is a quality dependent entirely on the prejudices of the user of the word. Calling an idea absurd is just a description of your own prejudices. Other people agreeing, depends on their prejudices on the matter being the same as yours.

Sleepy wrote: »

Didn't the census show a proportionate decline in those describing themselves as being of a faith? I was of the impression that outside of Bible Belt America (not exactly the best advert for Christianity imho) and third world countries, religion was on the decline in percentage terms?

The 'third world' is 85% of the world, lol.

SirHenryGrattan wrote: »

Would you invite any of these people to Sunday Church. Not likely.

Maybe you wouldn't, but Jesus would.

SirHenryGrattan wrote: »

Most of the TDs who represent rural constituencies in Ireland are conservative. Ireland's drift towards secular liberalism started with the rapid urbanisation of the country in the late 70s and 80s. If the country were rural with an older population it would be much more conservative.

Jesus owns all your social categories! Thank you!

Sleepy wrote: »

I'm also very skeptical of the notion that a lack of religion is in any way responsible for the high levels of suicide we do have. IMHO, the suicide rate amongst young men in particular is driven by the pressure to succeed and the lack of a defined role for men in modern society.

Every man and woman (to buy buy buy) for him/herself, that's our role. Consumer Capitalism is the new religion, and because it is such a sh!te one people are spiritually dissatisfied.

Húrin

Vegeta wrote: »

As a young male I can say I have no problem at all with Christianity. Jesus and his teachings etc sound reasonable, lead a good decent life and you will be rewarded.

I agree that morality was important to Jesus' teaching, but a demand for moral behaviour in return for a reward is exactly not what Jesus was teaching. All he asked was for faith in his power to reward us with life, and restore our communion with God. Good works are a result of this. You cannot give God any more than he has by doing good works. Jesus taught that we need God's help. I hope this made sense!

The big big problem is the church. Their position on so many topics are man made rules (not devine) which were thought up in a different age and have little or no logic to them.

SO want to attract more young people, reform the church.

I agree that the church has problems, and it is one of the reasons I never found Catholicism especially attractive, but it seems that a lot people assume that the Catholic position on some topics are 'just man made rules' simply because they don't like those positions.

Spyral

I dont like the double standards of it all especially.

kelly1

ned78 wrote: »

We don't want to be told Condoms are wrong, or to be told sex before marriage is wrong. Until there's a shift in those tenets of the Catholic Church, we won't appreciate Scripture being shoved in our faces to back up those old fashioned (In our eyes) foundations of the faith. Times change, and Religion needs to move with the pace if it is to have any hope of surviving.

This is a view that keep cropping up again and again. "We don't want to be told what to do". I think it's at the root of the problem we're discussing.

People keep going on about how the Church must change and get with the times. I don't think people realize what they're saying. Some people seem to have this idea that God is fine with things like fornication and it's just the Church getting it wrong.

Would people flock back to the Church if it permitted artificial birth control or sex before marriage? Not a chance!

The spirit of disobedience is rife in society. Children rebelling against parents, students/pupils against teachers, citizens against the law and now people against the Church which Jesus founded. The Church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, has the God-given authority to decide what is and what isn't sinful! God help those who rebel against her teachings!

John 10:16 He that heareth you [apostles], heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.

Matthew 18:17. And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

Matthew 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Matthew 18:18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.

petestan

Michael G wrote: »

Nothing to do with "rising education levels". People now have many more nominal educational qualifications than ever before. But everything indicates that they are less well educated and less intelligent, sceptical, sophisticated, subtle (or whatever you think they might be) than other people were before them. (This, as you know, is the worldwide phenomenon of dumbing down.) The only real difference now is that most people think that one person's opinion is as good as another's, regardless of their respective education or intelligence or the quality of the information they are processing.

Wrong. First of all, don't try to tell me that I, and all other 'people' are "less well educated and less intelligent...". The opposite is the case. The key here is that education has become much more widespread and accessible ('dumbing up', if you will).

With a much greater proportion of the population receiving more education and cognitive independence and objectivity, the realisation is finally beginning to dawn on people that Catholicism; Christianity; indeed most religious faiths are unnecessary, far-fetched and downright wrong.

I was raised as a Catholic and practiced the faith until I gained the ability to think for myself.

Helix

PDN wrote: »

I have the authority to conduct a wedding, or indeed not to conduct a wedding, for anyone I want. Since the wedding ceremony in our church is geared around the idea of marriage being a covenant created by God, then an atheist would be a total hypocrite to ask me to conduct their wedding, irrespective of whether they believed that Jesus existed or not.

sorry for bringing a post from way back up to the top, but i only saw this thread when it was bumped...

tell me, do you have any qualms along the lines of the above when parents bring babies in to be baptised? the baby cannot make a decision about religion, doesnt understand anything of whats going on, and is in no way able to make a choice about taking part in the ceremony.

if you would refuse to marry an atheist on the grounds of them being hypocritical, i presume you refuse all baptisms on the basis that the child cannot make up its own mind?

kelly1

petestan wrote: »

I was raised as a Catholic and practiced the faith until I gained the ability to think for myself.

It has nothing to do with being able to think for oneself! I would say rather that you knowledge or understanding of the Catholic faith is lacking.

AtomicHorror

kelly1 wrote: »

The spirit of disobedience is rife in society. Children rebelling against parents, students/pupils against teachers, citizens against the law and now people against the Church which Jesus founded. The Church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, has the God-given authority to decide what is and what isn't sinful! God help those who rebel against her teachings!

So after 180-odd posts, I think we can safely say:

"That's why."

Fanny Cradock

Helix wrote: »

sorry for bringing a post from way back up to the top, but i only saw this thread when it was bumped...

tell me, do you have any qualms along the lines of the above when parents bring babies in to be baptised? the baby cannot make a decision about religion, doesnt understand anything of whats going on, and is in no way able to make a choice about taking part in the ceremony.

Not all Christian denominations engage in the baptism of infants. I believe that Evangelicals, Pentecostals and a number of other denominations will only agree to a request for a baptism when they feel the individual making the request is old enough to appreciate the full meaning of the ceremony. Typically, I believe that baptism is not encouraged before mid-teens.

PDN

Helix wrote: »

sorry for bringing a post from way back up to the top, but i only saw this thread when it was bumped...

tell me, do you have any qualms along the lines of the above when parents bring babies in to be baptised? the baby cannot make a decision about religion, doesnt understand anything of whats going on, and is in no way able to make a choice about taking part in the ceremony.

if you would refuse to marry an atheist on the grounds of them being hypocritical, i presume you refuse all baptisms on the basis that the child cannot make up its own mind?

You presume correctly. I refuse to baptise any infant on the basis that the child cannot make up its own mind as to whether it wants to be a Christian or not.

Helix

PDN wrote: »

You presume correctly. I refuse to baptise any infant on the basis that the child cannot make up its own mind as to whether it wants to be a Christian or not.

brilliant, thats really good to hear (if youre not being sarcastic like the bloke in the other thread haha)

i think thered be more young christians in ireland if that was the rule of thumb rather than the exception

Ciaran500

kelly1 wrote: »

It has nothing to do with being able to think for oneself! I would say rather that you knowledge or understanding of the Catholic faith is lacking.

What? So the only reason someone moves away from Catholicism is because they lack the knowledge or understanding of it?

Phototoxin

I moved away because it makes little sense. In addition I dont believe in certain infallible statemets like the immaculate conception assumption. My understanding of the catholic teaching of original sin is nonsensical to me also.

Other chrisitan denominations however make little sense as they are based on a book which they have no reason to know is the right one other than the RCC said so in some councils before it was born so it seems very silly to me.

UU

Maybe it's because young people are now living in a much more open, secular and free society and have the choice what they choose to believe in and what religion to follow or none at all. Like myself, when I was younger like around 13 - 16 I actually tried to be religious. I just disliked the Catholic Church because I felt the way they practiced religion was too lavish, hierarchical and hypocritical so then I actually went to a Protestant Church for a year or two. It was Presbyterian I think. Lovely church though, such nice people and very open-minded and liberal way of thinking. I liked it a lot more but I just lost my faith completely due to many reasons such as becoming interested a lot in science and philosophy mainly existentialism and just I felt it wasn't for me. I was never one of those young types who'd be all like "I'm so cool. I'm an atheist. Look at what a rebel I am". That annoys me because they haven't really though about it. I wouldn't want anyone to hold any position without challenging it and thinking for themselves about it.

I actually think that religion is important to know about and actually should be taught in schools as an overall comprehensive subject. I think by teaching that Catholicism is more important and better and forcing students to go to masses and retreats is not a great way teaching religion as it becomes a closed system. Also I think philosophy should be taught in schools. In France it is taught and is very successful because it actually gets people to think about things, not just religion but their own existence and even moral and political systems. Well that's just my opinion anyway.

PDN

UU wrote: »

Also I think philosophy should be taught in schools. In France it is taught and is very successful because it actually gets people to think about things, not just religion but their own existence and even moral and political systems. Well that's just my opinion anyway.

And an excellent opinion it is too!

I think teaching philosophy in schools would be very sensible.

Dave!

We actually had something similar for religion class.... it alternated from whiney proselytization, to a doss class, to something resembling a useful/interesting class. We all had to buy a copy of Sophie's Choice, for example. Didn't get too far into it, mind you! But we had some interesting discussions spawned from it.

Abraham

Philosophy - the study of - has much to recommend it but tends not to excite younger people as much as those who have had a better range of real life experiences.

One thing I have noticed in regard to the 'changing face of the Irish church' is that more and more of the so-called non-nationals are appearing in our church so much so that the first five rows in the church are taken over every Sunday completely by a great variety of people who are clearly non natives.
Furthermore they usually bring the kids with them and all very well turned out too and on good behaviour. I think I can safely say that they are non-national now with accuracy but that too will change over time as these families integrate with local people.

On the other hand, I can see for myself and have been assured by some who work within parish structures that we have now bred a whole generation of people who treat the RC Church as a facility that should be there for them when they want to marry (sometimes), wish to baptise their children (mostly), hold funeral services (when necessary) and never a concern as to how the same church will remain upright, heated, in reasonable repair, cleaned and maintained from day to day. The cash flow too, I am assured, has diminished very considerably from the disaffected ones leaving the seniors who have now less use for the church functionalities, if I may put it like that, to carry the load.

Before anyone rushes to tell me, I will acknowledge quickly that much of the malaise afflicting the RC Church has been self induced but maybe that's overdone now in terms of the damage to church structures and especially if it threatens the very existence of the church. Should that kind of disaffection continue to the point where it utterly destroys the existence of the church ? Is that what people want ??

There is so much else one could say about this topic and it would be interesting, I'm sure, to hear other views. I'm tightening my seat belt and donning my crash helmet as I write.

kelly1

Ciaran500 wrote: »

What? So the only reason someone moves away from Catholicism is because they lack the knowledge or understanding of it?

No, it's not the only reason but it has a lot to do with it. There's a lot of ignorance about and hostility towards the Church. People freely propagate lies with the intent of doing damage.

Petestan said he practiced the Catholic faith until he was old enough to think for himself. This seems to imply that the Catholic faith is incoherent or plainly false.

I would argue that that is certainly not the case. I would also argue that rejecting Christianity or the Church shows a lack of humility. Many people these days have lost a sense of their own sinfulness and therefore don't believe they need forgiveness and salvation. People have lost a healthy "fear" of God.

Helix

you cant fear something that you dont believe exists. im not afraid of 800 foot tall spiders, for example

challengemaster

Spyral wrote: »

Why are there sow few young catholics ?

I mean anyone in the 18-25 age group who is a catholic is gonna have a hard time finding a spouse considering that so few people attend mass. It's one of my major concerns with religion in Ireland at the minute.

Any thoughts ?

LOL

Who the hell finds a spouse at mass?! I'm sorry to tell you, but the church is not the first place anyone would think of if you said social life, or meeting people. Nightclubs/pubs/etc. People have social lives. That's generally where people meet their OH. Nobody has any hard times finding a spouse, btw. Nobody looks in a church for one being the reason why.

As for why there's no young catholics - Nobody cares about religion anymore. Possibly because its not forced onto people as much anymore - they can and do make their own choices. Possibly because people won't believe claims with no factual evidence to back them up. Possibly because people are just too busy to factor it into their lvies.

Personally, I'll take science over religion any day. But as a young person, there's my opinion. People can choose now, and as far as I can see - nobody really cares anymore. Many people won't believe unless theres factual proof of something. And before you say it, no, the bible is not factual proof for the existance of 'god'.

Many people have better things to be doing. School, College, Study, Socialising, Working, trying to make a living for yourself. In todays world, all of these things will come before religion, and should do in my honest opinion. Having faith is all good and well, but it's not going to feed you or put a roof over your head at night.

Malari

kelly1 wrote: »

I would also argue that rejecting Christianity or the Church shows a lack of humility. Many people these days have lost a sense of their own sinfulness and therefore don't believe they need forgiveness and salvation. People have lost a healthy "fear" of God.

You seem to miss the point that people don't reject the church because of some sort of desire to show defiance to god, they reject it because they don't think there is a god! It says nothing about the need for forgiveness, because that is just irrelevant to them.

Nodin

kelly1 wrote: »

The Church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, has the God-given authority to decide what is and what isn't sinful! God help those who rebel against her teachings!

Considering the activities of members of the church - up to the highest level over the centuries, its rather hard to accept that. Likewise, retribution against those who 'rebel' seems scant.

You are correct in saying that accepting Birth control won't bring anyone back, but then again, not accepting is rather hypocritical, given that a great many catholics in the developed world at least 'carry on regardless'.