There's not many of us left...

daedalus2097

Alanstrainor wrote:

I'm a learner at the moment and i'm shocked by the complete lack of indicating, but what's worse, and i saw it twice in the last week, is when someone will indicate left and turn right:p, it's insane,

Yup, it's one of those things that learners seem to be better at. The people driving for 20 years seem to have forgotten they had them, or else thing they're too experienced to need them or something. I don't understand it anyway...

peasant

There is a flipside to the story.

Imagine a t-junction and you want to turn left. from your right there is a car approaching, indicating left. so you think its going to turn into your road and you pull out ...crash ....because the oncoming vehicle never turned but drove straight ahead.

Who's at fault?

You are !

Same goes for roundabouts. You have no come back just because somebody indicated wrongly or not at all.

So for junctions and roundabouts its actually safest to ignore any and all indicators diplayed (or not , as the case may be) and only act if and when you're absolutely SURE where the other vehicle is going.

Eoin

Tauren wrote:

fair enough, i'm just saying what i was told.

That's also what I was told: unless I have to pull out into the oncoming lane, I don't need to indicate. But sometimes I will still indicate if passing a cyclist or pedestrian etc that the driver behind me may not be able to see immediately.

I am very anal about indicating also - more so since I bought a 3 series, just because of all the bmw driver bashers out there. In my experience, the worst have been people in vans, taxis (probably the worst offenders). I haven't noticed any particular makes being particularly bad, though I've noticed that blokes are worse than women.

daedalus2097

peasant wrote:

There is a flipside to the story.

Imagine a t-junction and you want to turn left. from your right there is a car approaching, indicating left. so you think its going to turn into your road and you pull out ...crash ....because the oncoming vehicle never turned but drove straight ahead.

Who's at fault?

You are !

Same goes for roundabouts. You have no come back just because somebody indicated wrongly or not at all.

So for junctions and roundabouts its actually safest to ignore any and all indicators diplayed (or not , as the case may be) and only act if and when you're absolutely SURE where the other vehicle is going.

Yeah, that's true - and anyone who has recently been instructed how to drive will tell you that too. All an indicator really tells you is that their indicator is working. I'd never make a move in front of someone who looked like they'd turn in because obviously if they didn't make the turn they're into your side. I'm getting at the point however, that if someone wasn't indicating to make that left turn into a T-junction, you'd be more inclined to assume they're not going to make that move. Indicating one thing and not doing it is very annoying, but not nearly as dangerous as doing something you didn't indicate.

voxpop

Kadeshh wrote:

iwhat is even worse is those poeple on roundabouts in the wrong lane (outside lane for 2nd turnoff etc)

You should be in the outside (left) lane if taking the second turnoff. The inside lane is for 3rd and subsequent exits

daedalus2097

voxpop wrote:

You should be in the outside (left) lane if taking the second turnoff. The inside lane is for 3rd and subsequent exits

Ah here we go again If it's a 2-lane roundabout and there is traffic in the outside lane, you can use the inside lane for taking the second exit as well. Though in Ireland there are many, many exceptions to the standard roundabout rules - these are usually painted or signposted near the roundabout, sometimes quite badly. 2 of the 3 roundabouts I pass on my way to work have odd arrangements, requiring you to be in the inside lane to take the second exit. Which leaves the left lane open for all those twats who skip the queue and cut across you half way around :mad:

Edit: Sorry, Voxpop, reading that sounds like I'm having a go at you... I'm not Kadeshh, maybe you meant 3rd exit? Either that or you were going too far around in the outside lane...

spank_inferno

agree with daedalus, inside lane users can take the 2nd exit.
ie: the 9 & 12 oclock exits eg: loughlinstown roundabout on the N11.

But yeah indicator use is random and poorly executed by many road users.
I dont want to point especially at the White van drivers of Ireland but... I just gotta!

Isnt this an indicating oditity:
You approach a roundabout with 3 exits:
9, 12 & 3 oclock
You indicate left for the 9 oclock exit of course, & indicate right for the 3 oclock exit. But you also indicate right for the 12 oclock exit too.
Odd considering your essentialy going straight ahead.
Add to this that you can take the 2nd exit in the inside lane imagine the shock of someone in the outside lane taking the same exit seeing to their left
seeing them indicating to the right, scary

... but thats according to my driving instructor , havent seen it happen in real life

peasant

Driving around roundabouts properly can only be done by either creatues of habit or clearvoyants.

All this inside lane/outside lane stuff only works if and when you know FOR SURE what the exit at the other end of the roundabout looks like ...are there two lanes or aren't there?

Fine, if you drive the same ones every day and you KNOW what to expect, not so easy if you don't. whatever yo udo, there's a fifty percent chance of getting it wrong.

I've long since given up ..I stay in the outside lane at all times

Andrewf20

I have noticed that it seems to be getting worse too. While waiting to come onto a roundabout, if a car comes around it, without indicating I get quite vocal out the window with hand gestures as well. It really gets on my nerves.

daedalus2097

spank_inferno wrote:

Isnt this an indicating oditity:
You approach a roundabout with 3 exits:
9, 12 & 3 oclock
You indicate left for the 9 oclock exit of course, & indicate right for the 3 oclock exit. But you also indicate right for the 12 oclock exit too.
Odd considering your essentialy going straight ahead.
Add to this that you can take the 2nd exit in the inside lane imagine the shock of someone in the outside lane taking the same exit seeing to their left
seeing them indicating to the right, scary

... but thats according to my driving instructor , havent seen it happen in real life

That's not the case... For 12 o'clock exits you should NOT indicate when entering the roundabout. You only indicate left when you're about to leave the roundabout and have passed the exit prior to the one you want to take, just like any other exit. 9 and 3 o'clocks you're right though.

I see it the odd time (hehe, maybe it's you ) on the Loughlinstown roundabout - I'd be in the right hand lane, going straight through, and the driver on my left indicates right. Makes me slow down and give him loads of room, just in case he decides to turn right in the outside lane and drives into the side of me! Generally seem to just take the 12 o'clock exit, tis a little scary though...

voxpop

daedalus2097 wrote:

If it's a 2-lane roundabout and there is traffic in the outside lane, you can use the inside lane for taking the second exit as well.

I didnt realise that was the case - do you mean 2 lanes exiting the roundabout. Ive been on many a roundabout with 2 lanes entering and one exiting and no lane markings at all on the roundabout itself - makes for good fun. I would always go with the outside for 1 and 2 with the inside for all others unless I know there are two exiting lanes.
The king of all roundabouts has to be walkinstown - the guy designing that must have been off his tits

daedalus2097

Well, actually meant where there's 2 lanes on the approach... Thing is though there shouldn't be any roundabouts with 2 lanes in and one lane out for that reason... Usually what they're doing recently is having a short run of a couple of car lengths after the roundabout wide enough for two lanes, then merging them, but yeah, it's fun when that's not there alright - I'll stick to the left lane anyway unless I know the roundabout. Hehe, yeah, it's a bit of a nightmare of a roundabout alright. The deer hunter one in Sallynoggin is another nightmare one!

Vikings

spank_inferno wrote:

Isnt this an indicating oditity:
You approach a roundabout with 3 exits:
9, 12 & 3 oclock
You indicate left for the 9 oclock exit of course, & indicate right for the 3 oclock exit. But you also indicate right for the 12 oclock exit too.
Odd considering your essentialy going straight ahead.
Add to this that you can take the 2nd exit in the inside lane imagine the shock of someone in the outside lane taking the same exit seeing to their left
seeing them indicating to the right, scary

... but thats according to my driving instructor , havent seen it happen in real life

Woah woah woah... eh no you don't do that. If you are going straight through a roundabout you do not indicate right, ever! You do not signal until you are past the first exit and then and only then do you indicate left.

My friend failed his driving test because his instructor told him the same thing, completely wrong!! I wonder how many driving instructors could and should be stung for the cost of resitting the test?

su_dios

Kalashnikov_Kid wrote:

Not sure about that. Think you have to indicate right whenever an obstruction forces you to intrude onto the opposite carraigeway, regardless of any oncoming traffic.

Then again, I failed my test last christmas

When indicating when slightly moving to pass by parked cars is it not more to alert those driving behind you of this obstruction that they may not spot? You won't always cross the centre line when overtaking a parked car but if the car behind in moving at speed or travelling too close they may not react in time to the obstruction.

Lord Nikon

This ranks up there with people not turning their indicators off.

Wishbone Ash

tc20 wrote:

your driving should not force other traffic to change their position or speed.

It depends on the vehicle. When driving a truck or bus, the driver is expected to make cars and other small vehicles change their position on the road to compensate for the greater width of the truck or bus.

My employer had all drivers analysed recently. Although my driving was generally good, I was told that I was driving too near the left on narrow roads/streets and that I should be maintaining a position about 50cms over the white line and encourage car drivers to move over.

Looking back, that's exactly how I was taught to drive large vehicles but, over the years, I had developed the habit of keeping inside the lines.

peasant

Wishbone Ash wrote:

My employer had all drivers analysed recently. Although my driving was generally good, I was told that I was driving too near the left on narrow roads/streets and that I should be maintaining a position about 50cms over the white line and encourage car drivers to move over.

Looking back, that's exactly how I was taught to drive large vehicles but, over the years, I had developed the habit of keeping inside the lines.

S'cuse me ?????:eek:

You were tought to do what?

That's bloody bullying by tonnage and size ...mine's bigger than yours, get the fcuk out off the way - behaviour.

Crossing a centre line (or any continous marking on the road, like painted-on traffic islands and lane separators for example) was an instant driving test failure in the organisation where I got my HGV licence.

coolmoose

have to agree with wishbone, the teaching recently seems to be more along the "get away from the left kerb" and keep your bus/truck out a bit. all with due consideration for oncoming traffic obviously!

i wouldn't say it's bullying by tonnage and size! i was driving a bus recently, about 1' inside the white line when a corsa crossed over and smashed into the side of me!

no matter which side ur nearer to these days it makes no difference, the standard of driving has declined so much!

[/rant]

Wishbone Ash

peasant wrote:

Crossing a centre line (or any continous marking on the road, like painted-on traffic islands and lane separators for example) was an instant driving test failure in the organisation where I got my HGV licence.

Don't shoot the messenger peasant. I'm merely describing what I was taught and I have passed the driving test in all categories. My driving was described under analysys as 'not assertive enough'.

Most roads have a left leaning camber. Many telegraph poles, road signage and bus stop signs are placed at the edge of the kerb. If driving a high sided vehicle on a narrow soad/street, it is virtually impossible to maintain a position inside the lines without colliding with one of these obstacles. (Next time you see a double deck bus note the damage at the front nearside corner).

If a road is 5 metres wide, it is more appropriate that the truck/bus utilises 3 metres and the car utilises 2 metres. I'm often is situations where I'm using every cm available to me when meeting a car while the car driver has a metre to spare at their nearside.

peasant

I know exactly what you're talking about re camber and leaning telegraph poles etc. And yes ...it's not always possible to stay within the line without getting into trouble on the far side, so you do have to cross over occasionally.

But I 'm surprised that it is being taught as a rule now to be generally over and be more "assertive".

Just ten minutes ago I was almost flattened by one very "assertive" driver. Artic truck bombing along at 80 or more kmh on a road restricted to 60 for the very reason that it is too narrow and bendy. That idiot was so "assertive", half the truck was on my lane. I had to hit the brakes fully, climb into the ditch and the trailer still only missed my mirror by about 10 cm:eek:

I'm still shaking ...pity I didn't get time to look for his reg, otherwise I'd show him "assertive"

tc20

Wishbone Ash wrote:

It depends on the vehicle. When driving a truck or bus, the driver is expected to make cars and other small vehicles change their position on the road to compensate for the greater width of the truck or bus.

Looking back, that's exactly how I was taught to drive large vehicles but, over the years, I had developed the habit of keeping inside the lines.

Wishbone, i can see your point with regard to camber/high sided vehicle, but i agree with peasant here on the 'mine's bigger than yours, get outta me way'
train of thought.
However, and this is a point drivers will only gain with road experience (not something that is generally thought to beginners) - that larger vehicles obviously need more room (duh!) but how often have you seen a truck pass a parked car when there is clearly oncoming traffic, and forcing the smaller car, who should have priority, into taking evasive action?
An experienced driver will notice the oncoming truck, and the obstruction, and generally hold back to let the truck make the pass. But the 'bullying' tactics by drivers of larger vehicles is bang out of order.
In many cases, a novice driver, fresh with knowledge on correct road procedure, might expect the truck driver to hold back, and so not alter their speed or position, before having the bejebus scared out of them by 20tonnes of metal coming towards them.

Curran

If large artics are driving "aggressively", and sometimes on the other side of the road - should they, perhaps, drive with their indicators on all the time??

fozzle

Wishbone Ash wrote:

If a road is 5 metres wide, it is more appropriate that the truck/bus utilises 3 metres and the car utilises 2 metres. I'm often is situations where I'm using every cm available to me when meeting a car while the car driver has a metre to spare at their nearside.

Ugh, I have that, it's invariably middle aged women who seem to think they're driving tanks. YOU DON'T NEED FIVE FEET OF CLEARANCE ON EITHER SIDE OF YOUR CAR! Mind you, since most of them probably got their licences in the amnesty I probably shouldn't be suprised. :mad:

gbh

Yep noticed it as well...going home the other evening and behind a chancer with an L plate on and all his friends in the car. His first mistake was to go into the wrong lane (the turn off lane for a right turn). I then go into the left lane as normal. Then this guy suddenly veers off into my lane without bothering to indicate or look in his rear or wing mirror. He nearly ran me off the road. This guy is a danger to himself but more importantly to others.

gbh

fozzle wrote:

Ugh, I have that, it's invariably middle aged women who seem to think they're driving tanks. YOU DON'T NEED FIVE FEET OF CLEARANCE ON EITHER SIDE OF YOUR CAR! Mind you, since most of them probably got their licences in the amnesty I probably shouldn't be suprised. :mad:

I've noticed that women in SUVS are usually the most arrogant drivers and tend to use their vehicle to take over the road, and never let you edge in front of them if you are coming from a slip road.

Kadeshh

daedalus2097 wrote:

Kadeshh, maybe you meant 3rd exit? Either that or you were going too far around in the outside lane...

sorry, meant that the other way round. as in i'm in outside lane turning at second exit, guy inside me from same turn on, coming across me. (only single lane exit)

i

OKenora

I think we are confusing "defensive" driving and "correct" driving. In the case of a HGV crossing the divider for any reason when not needed it is a fail point in your test, but the driving out from the kerb is a defensive driving technique which is being taught to drivers AFTER they pass their test but not as part of it.

It is designed to protect the vehicle (tele poles bad verges etc) and pedestrians who wobble off or near the edge of the path.

What is a shame is the fact that driving professionals feel the need to drive like this (or at least are being instructed to) I think it's a large indictment on the standard of driving generally in the country.

Enygma

Has anyone noticed that some people (taxi drivers) are just using the blinkers instead of indicators lately? It's like they're saying "I'm going to turn soon, but I'll leave the direction as a surprise!"

I've seen a fair bit of it lately. Is it just me?

Rovi

Enygma wrote:

...are just using the blinkers instead of indicators lately?

Um... pardon me for being dense, but what's a 'blinker' as opposed to an 'indicator?'

Stark

Blinker is in what horses wear I guess. ie: driving around with head locked in forward position and not so much as the odd glance in any other direction.