The horror of North Korea

Dudess

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article2679480.ece

I've just read this article. It's profoundly disturbing.

Sand

Well, thats communism for you. Hand over your property, your individuality and trust in the benevolent party to provide. Or not.

the_syco

Meh. The Chinese only seem bad because people can talk about it. People don't leave NK, they escape. If they leave, they have a reason to return.

J.S. Pill

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/07/09/news/korea.php

More on this from the International Herald Tribune

Akrasia

Sand wrote:

Well, thats communism for you. Hand over your property, your individuality and trust in the benevolent party to provide. Or not.

That's totalitarianism. Communism was originally supposed to be a collection of autonomous collectives, the stalinist and Leninist 'central planning' and 'democratic centralism' are not the only kinds of socialism

jjbrien

i was watching something on yourtube 2 days ago about this. How the US aid is nopt getting to where its needed and the children are going starving. Pretty bad. Also the industy in north korea has ground to a hault. It was a discover channel programme but pretty bad.

Mick86

jjbrien wrote:

... How the US aid is not getting to where its needed and the children are going starving...

That has a familiar ring to it.

Colonel Sanders

Surely the US, as self proclaimed guardians of world peace, are preparing an invasion force as we speak.

Oh wait a minute.....

Mick86

Colonel Sanders wrote:

Surely the US, as self proclaimed guardians of world peace, are preparing an invasion force as we speak.

Oh wait a minute.....

Not likely. North Korea can field about 80 divisions.

Also the NKs make a lot of noise but it's just in the way of reminding both the US and South Korea to send more rice.

Attractive Nun

I can't believe this has turned into an America-bashing thread so quickly. Well, maybe I can, but it's still a little sad.

It's unbelievable that a government like that in North Korea can even exist. A pertinent question that I think everyone must try answer, but especially those who were and are so unflinchingly angry about the war in Iraq (and I admit that Iraq is a total disaster btw), is what exactly does the international community do about humanitarian situations like this? Military action certainly isn't popular. Negotiations don't seem to work. Do we do nothing?

wes

Attractive Nun wrote:

I can't believe this has turned into an America-bashing thread so quickly. Well, maybe I can, but it's still a little sad.

It's unbelievable that a government like that in North Korea can even exist. A pertinent question that I think everyone must try answer, but especially those who were and are so unflinchingly angry about the war in Iraq (and I admit that Iraq is a total disaster btw), is what exactly does the international community do about humanitarian situations like this? Military action certainly isn't popular. Negotiations don't seem to work. Do we do nothing?

Well one would hope the leaders of the free world would put on there thinking hats and come up with a better method than the current "Liberal Intervention", while well intentioned blew up in there faces. I don't think the current bunch are competent enough to liberate North Korea using force.

Its an interesting question however of what to do with a situation like North Korea, its a horrible regime and something needs to be done, but the question is what needs to be done. Also, another question is whether the current people who can do something are competent enough to do so.

Sand

A pertinent question that I think everyone must try answer, but especially those who were and are so unflinchingly angry about the war in Iraq (and I admit that Iraq is a total disaster btw), is what exactly does the international community do about humanitarian situations like this?

I think some hand wringing and vague statements like "someone ought to do something" is in order.

Of course, action risks consequences so in the interests of retaining the high moral ground a calculated balance of handwrining, vague calls to arms and inaction is the best course. Because if you dont do anything, you cant do anything wrong - and isnt that the important thing?

mike65

Repeat to fade - North Korea, Zimbabwe, Dafur...

The failure of Iraq after the first 3 weeks has scared off leaders for a generation which is great news for the leaders of NK, Zimbabwe etc.

Mike.

nacho libre

Mick86 wrote:

Not likely. North Korea can field about 80 divisions.

ah yes as Dick Cheney famously delcared "iraq is do-able" North Korea on the other hand is not- at least not without a hefty price....

nacho libre

Sand wrote:

I think some hand wringing and vague statements like "someone ought to do something" is in order.

Of course, action risks consequences so in the interests of retaining the high moral ground a calculated balance of handwrining, vague calls to arms and inaction is the best course. Because if you dont do anything, you cant do anything wrong - and isnt that the important thing?

I agree.
America regardless of the difficulty involved should take action against North America not just engage in hand-wringing and seeking to bribe this vile regime. It seems you are aghast at the situation in North korea and you want definitive action, not pious grandstanding and abhor the duplicity shown from America so far in their dealings with a vile dictator. A dictator who once threatened to sell his WMD to the highest bidder.

monosharp

Right.

First of all. Kim Jung is a bad fecker and NK is a bad place for its people. Thats not really disputable by anyone. Is it as bad as we are led to believe ? Probably but again, we're relying on media info which can and probably is, largely manipulated.

As appeared in a certain roll of toilet paper masquerading as a newspaper here not so long ago. Kim Jung is not an idiot, he doesn't like Donald Duck etc and he doesn't spend his days watching american movies or whatever other crap was written.

The mans actually quite intelligent and constantly gets the better end of the deal in negotiations with SK, China and the US. Do any of you know that NK has tourism ? I assume not from earlier comments.

Most of you read the story about the lad in the prison for a crime his parents committed, oh god says you all, thats terrible. I agree its terrible, looking at it from our perspective, from our culture and from our laws. Then again, why don't you show a North Korean how the American penal system works and see what they think of it and would they prefer that. The American system is a disgrace, once people become prisoners in america, unless your rich, you aren't a human being anymore.
If charges are brought against you then whether or not you actually are guilty or not and will be convicted is directly related to the size of your wallet.

Is that system better ?

What people here fail to realise is we're being fed a pack of crap most of the time and anything we hear or see in the media is being manipulated.

For example, how many of you know that South Korea signed a contract with the US after the Korean war which meant that SK had to pay the Americans a small fortune to stay and "protect" them ?

Fair enough you say. Ok, well how many of you know that the president of South Korea has stopped paying Mr Bush his "protection" money and has asked American forces to leave South Korea. And then how many of you know that George and company have refused to leave and have actually being squeezing SK's economy in an attempt to change the presidents mind ?

Oh if you look hard enough you'll find articles about this, its there for you to see. The problem is you have to look for this information and the vast majority of people couldn't be bothered. They think by listening to the latest broadcast on sky news they're getting the full story. Complete rubbish.

Also to the people in the thread proposing George and co invade NK. For what purpose ? Why ? Is there oil there ?

p.s > Can anyone guess who started all this trouble in Korea in the First place ? The Koreans ? Some sort of korean national revolution ?

The USSR/China and USA did.

swiss

monosharp wrote:

Ok, well how many of you know that the president of South Korea has stopped paying Mr Bush his "protection" money and has asked American forces to leave South Korea. And then how many of you know that George and company have refused to leave and have actually being squeezing SK's economy in an attempt to change the presidents mind ?

Oh if you look hard enough you'll find articles about this, its there for you to see.

I am intrigued by this but like the vast majority of people I don't have the time or inclination to look hard enough. I don't suppose you have any links to information or articles to this effect?

Incidentally, how would I even trust those links seeing as we are, as you put it, being fed a pack of crap and what we see and hear is being manipulated?

monosharp

I am intrigued by this but like the vast majority of people I don't have the time or inclination to look hard enough. I don't suppose you have any links to information or articles to this effect?

I'll have a look and get back to you. I didn't get the info from the media but i have seen articles about it before as well.

Oh and just for something else that might intrigue you, did you know that South Korea is trying to prosecute the Americans for warcrimes ? We never hear that here do we.

http://www.kimsoft.com/2001/ica.htm
http://www.kimsoft.com/kr-mass.htm

You could also search wikipedia for "The Bridge at No Gun Ri".

"In the early days of the Korean War, as defeat began sliding into disaster, inexperienced, poorly commanded U.S. troops received higher orders to stop, by force if necessary, civilian movement through their lines. They responded, the journalists found, by massacring a number of South Korean civilians near the village of No Gun Ri over a period of three days."

"A number" is at least in the hundreds.

Heres a nice little link from 2002 which i'm sure noone has heard before either.
http://www.ipsnewsasia.net/bridgesfromasia/node/38

I just find it really interested the way the media is controlled and manipulated for the people and the region thats reading it. i.e > We never hear about American/British "badness" yet if Kim Jung or Saddam farted they'd have an article about it the next day.

Sand

Most of you read the story about the lad in the prison for a crime his parents committed, oh god says you all, thats terrible. I agree its terrible, looking at it from our perspective, from our culture and from our laws. Then again, why don't you show a North Korean how the American penal system works and see what they think of it and would they prefer that. The American system is a disgrace, once people become prisoners in america, unless your rich, you aren't a human being anymore.

"Some time within the next year a pro-Hitler reaction within the left wing intellegentsia is likely enough.There are premonitory signs of it already. Hitler's positive achievement appeals to the emptiness of these people, and, in the case of those with pacifist leanings, to their masochism. One knows in advance more or less what they will say. They will start by refusing to admit British capitalism is evolving into something different, or that the defeat of Hitler can mean anymore than a victory for the British and American millionaires. And from that they will proceed to argue that, after all, democracy is 'just the same as' or 'just as bad as' totalitarianism. There is not much freedom of speech in England; therefore there is no more than exists in Germany. To be on the dole is a horrible experience; therefore it is no worse to be in the torture chambers of the Gestapo. In general, two blacks make a white, half a loaf is the same as no bread.
George Orwell; The Lion and the Unicorn.

I love my signature, I recognised the mentality that Orwell denounced in so many of the posts I read on this forum. I dont know if Ill ever find a better one to be honest.

Though this statement has tempted me....

"Distinguished professors, gifted poets and influential journalists summoned their talents to convince all that would listen that modern tyrants were liberators and their unconcionable crimes were noble, when seen in the proper perspective. Whoever takes it upon himself to write an honest intellectual history of twentieth-century Europe will need a strong stomach"
Mark Lilla; The Reckless Mind: Intellectuals In Politics

What people here fail to realise is we're being fed a pack of crap most of the time and anything we hear or see in the media is being manipulated.

You are being fed a pack of crap - thats very clear from your confused, contradictory and misguided posts tbh. I think they can be summarised as "a pack of crap". Happily though, your utterly convinced you alone have the direct line to THE TRUTH. So Im sure youre right.

I agree.
America regardless of the difficulty involved should take action against North America not just engage in hand-wringing and seeking to bribe this vile regime. It seems you are aghast at the situation in North korea and you want definitive action, not pious grandstanding and abhor the duplicity shown from America so far in their dealings with a vile dictator. A dictator who once threatened to sell his WMD to the highest bidder.

No, I cant complain. The worst anyone can say about the international communities position is that its supporting and funding the systematic oppression of human beings.

But thankfully, that wont be news so it wont really happen. Theyll suffer and die quietly. Darfur is starting to get the message too.

El Stuntman

Sand wrote:

I think some hand wringing and vague statements like "someone ought to do something" is in order.

lol - 'the Bertie technique'

NK will eventually implode (as will Zimbabwe), hopefully this can be contained and managed without causing regional destabilisation.

The best thing the US (why does everyone here have a fixation with telling the yanks what to do? ) can do is very little, just play along with Kim and make sure he doesn't fire off any rockets at Seoul or Japan

monosharp

Sand wrote:

You are being fed a pack of crap - thats very clear from your confused, contradictory and misguided posts tbh. I think they can be summarised as "a pack of crap". Happily though, your utterly convinced you alone have the direct line to THE TRUTH. So Im sure youre right.

Do explain, what have i said thats a "pack of crap" ?

MoominPapa

Monosharp:

Given the choice between Kims gulag and Uncle Sams penal system I'll risk a shanking and a b*ggering in Oz every time

You seem to think that because nowhere is perfect everywhere is as bad as the worse place imaginable

mike65

Tin Foil hat alert I think.

Mike.

monosharp

MoominPapa wrote:

Monosharp:

Given the choice between Kims gulag and Uncle Sams penal system I'll risk a shanking and a b*ggering in Oz every time

You seem to think that because nowhere is perfect everywhere is as bad as the worse place imaginable

Nah thats not my point at all. My point was that most of the people on this thread see things in black and white, America good, North Korea bad. I'm simply trying to point out that its not good vs evil, its not that black and white and it shouldn't be thought of like that.

Not that long ago a certain Irish newspaper had a large article about Kim Jung being a physchopathic lunatic who loved American cartoons and films etc etc.
That was complete rubbish.

My main point was that we're only getting part of the story and even that part is being manipulated.

You talk about Kim Jung and his regime, what about the Americans and their war crimes ?

wes

monosharp wrote:

You talk about Kim Jung and his regime, what about the Americans and their war crimes ?

I am no fan of the US and they have done some bloody f***ed up stuff lately, but there nothing compared to North Korea. North Korean's are starving due to the failed regime. One of the main reasons we can't there side of the story is that they won't let us, its a totalitarian regime and they control the information flow. We don't know how bad things really are, we only have an inkling from information that has leaked out and from what little we know it pretty bad. The North Korean regime wants to keep how bads things are from us and there doing a very good job at the moment.

El Stuntman

monosharp wrote:

Not that long ago a certain Irish newspaper had a large article about Kim Jung being a physchopathic lunatic who loved American cartoons and films etc etc.
That was complete rubbish.

or was it?

also, get his name right please, it might add some scintilla of credibility to your statements

Sand

Do explain, what have i said thats a "pack of crap" ?

Nah, not biting. Theres two options as to what lies behind your positing of such rubbish. One of them is that you actually believe it. Neither implies its worth my time.

I know enough to know tackling your posts would be like bouncing a ball of a concrete wall. You've already completely ignored the points and criticism of your posts so far by myself and others.

You talk about Kim Jung and his regime, what about the Americans and their war crimes ?

/me reads thread topic.

Yeah, what about the Americans and their war crimes? Jesus tapdancing christ.

Here, heres something to look at whilst you post about Kim not being as bad as not supporting the Kyoto treaty or some other bull****.

El Stuntman

nice link Sand, thanks

monosharp

wes wrote:

I am no fan of the US and they have done some bloody f***ed up stuff lately, but there nothing compared to North Korea. North Korean's are starving due to the failed regime. One of the main reasons we can't there side of the story is that they won't let us, its a totalitarian regime and they control the information flow. We don't know how bad things really are, we only have an inkling from information that has leaked out and from what little we know it pretty bad. The North Korean regime wants to keep how bads things are from us and there doing a very good job at the moment.

North Koreans are starving from the failed regime, some Americans are starving or can't get basic health care because they're too poor.

I agree though, North Korea does need to change but i sincerely doubt force is going to do it any good.

wes

monosharp wrote:

North Koreans are starving from the failed regime, some Americans are starving or can't get basic health care because they're too poor.

I agree though, North Korea does need to change but i sincerely doubt force is going to do it any good.

It doesn't compare. There is not enough food for anyone, we are talking 3rd world poverty due to there idiot leader. The US lack of health care is messed up, especially for a 1st world country, but North Korea is in another league of bad. Being poor in the US sucks to be sure, but in North Korea almost everyone is poor and things are far far worse.

monosharp

Sand wrote:

Nah, not biting. Theres two options as to what lies behind your positing of such rubbish. One of them is that you actually believe it. Neither implies its worth my time.

and yet you still haven't said what i've posted thats "rubbish".

I agree, North Korea = bad, Kim Jong = bad, Kim Jong having nukes = bad.

My simple point is that a lot of what you read in the media is being manipulated and don't believe everything you hear.

Since your clearly not reading what i'm saying why don't you go back and read my first post again. It starts like this ..

First of all. Kim Jung is a bad fecker and NK is a bad place for its people. Thats not really disputable by anyone. Is it as bad as we are led to believe ? Probably but again, we're relying on media info which can and probably is, largely manipulated.