The Manhunt 2 Thread.

BlitzKrieg

1. Take Two have put the game on hold so nowhere is getting it for the moment: http://kotaku.com/gaming/breaking/take+two-suspends-manhunt-2-271183.php


2. Interview with the ESRB over how it was rated in the USA: http://kotaku.com/gaming/feature/esrb-head-talks-ao-manhunt-2-and-community-standards-271159.php

I get the impression that it was the Wii version that tipped the scales in this one.

Though I still dislike how people keep pushing the dangers of computer games because of player control. Pick up on any book on films or talk to any filmmaker and they will tell you that a large part of a film's power comes from denying the viewer any control (theorists such as Parker Tyler I think, compare it to mimicking a dream like state so it connects with your sub concious.) There are too many artificial elements surronding video games.

MooseJam

flogen wrote:

I've given my opinion on this in the other threads on the site (in Nintendo, AH and Politics) - so I'm just going to add something here that I didn't see while scanning the 6 pages.

For everyone who's attacking IFCO for being the shadow of the British equivalent, you should be aware that IFCO made their decision prior to the British. It would take some skill for IFCO to follow the lead of the BBFC before even the BBFC themselves.

claps hands for ifco for being nazi before bbfc

Moira OM

Killing is Killing.All those games with guns are worse.Are you more likely to simply pull a trigger and kill someone or rip off someones balls??

At least this game will show you the results of doing something truely awful.For anyone who played Manhunt 1,remember when you could get a guy kneeling on the ground and you would swing the bat at him? You could see his brains and eyeballs everywhere,truely sick.Before this I always thought if a robber broke in,Id give a good wing with a bat and that would be that...but knowing what horrors I could actually do to a person Im much more aware of how frail human life is.

o1s1n

Moira OM wrote:

,remember when you could get a guy kneeling on the ground and you would swing the bat at him? You could see his brains and eyeballs everywhere,truely sick.

Eh, If I remember corrently, the game was nowhere NEAR that detailed.

lego

steviec wrote:

First of all the "average gamer" doesn't have a chipped PS2.

But aside from that, the game is now officially unavailable in Ireland, Britain and Italy. It is also effectively banned in the US, as it was given a rating that neither Nintendo or Sony will allow on their consoles, so they don't have permission to actually produce the game. Australia is all but confirmed to be banning it and other equivalents in other countries may well follow suit too.

So that's pretty much the entire English speaking world out of the picture as well as other countries - no amount of cult following amongst importers on the internet will make up even a tiny percentage of what they've lost out on there. This is way beyond free advertising.

To be honest though I'm glad because the industry doesn't need games like this giving it a bad name, and as far as I can tell from what the various censorship boards have said it really deserves all of this.

Do you really think that take two are not going to release an english language version for sale/export from net stores in european countries to Ireland/UK? They don't need to spend money on localizing the game, the english language version is already finished. Its not like as if its a new market that they are trying to get into. Even better, in future batches they could simply throw in a language select at the beginning of the game like alot of games have, thereby facilitating their distribution accross the entire PAL territory via internet stores or border hopping.

Its quite easy for Germans to go on a shopping trip to one of their neighbouring countries to get the red-blood version of a game instead of the green-blood.

Its pretty cheap to chip a PS2.

Assuming it never gets officially released:
Half life was never officially released for the Dreamcast, yet via file sharing it quickly became one of the most popular games with Dreamcast owners. Censors have very little power in this respect. One way or another, this game will be released, and these bans mean sweet f**k all. If someone really wants it, they can obtain a copy.

MOH

I love this game.

After years of moaning about and showing no interest whatsoever in games of any kind, my gf last night couldn't stop talking about it after reading all the media hype. Led to a long conversation about violence in games which then segued into a rational conversation about games in general. With my gf?! I actually had to end the conversation cos the unreality of it was giving me a headache.

hullaballoo

MOH wrote:

I love this game.

After years of moaning about and showing no interest whatsoever in games of any kind, my gf last night couldn't stop talking about it after reading all the media hype. Led to a long conversation about violence in games which then segued into a rational conversation about games in general. With my gf?! I actually had to end the conversation cos the unreality of it was giving me a headache.

Lol.

User45701

o1s1n wrote:

I'm still holding out for a Dutch PAL release. Holland doesn't ban anything

i didnt have time to read everything on all pages but im kinda getting freaked out here.

I understand why they have ratings on games and movies ye that makes sense and tbh i think i even know why some contries legally blood has to be green. Whatever i get all that but what i dont understand is how is a democratic world any large company or orginisation with enough money can simply decide what people can and cant do?

1.Example 1 is this game

2. Death note, a great anamie - product of the internet, fans from around the world this show spread because of word of month. Its a Japanese show and i one day saw "Death Note, Season 1, Episode 1" and i thought eh its the first episode ill check it out. I got over 100 people hooked on that show and then when it became popular a company called VIZ bought the rights to it.

Two episodes before the end they issued C&D letters to anyone who was translating the show into english.

i read it and basically they used there money to buy this show and make it so that only people legally residing in the US could download it, another example of a large company/organisation deciding what people can/cant watch/play because they have money.

anyway the internet response was amazing! i have never in my life seen someone translated and then uploaded so quickly because people where that pissed off.

The point i am making is that this game will come out, its been made it does not matter if its release is banned it will get out somehow so **** em, let those people ban whatever the internet becomes more powerful and influential each year.

tba

I wrote and angry letter.

o1s1n

User45701 wrote:

i didnt have time to read everything on all pages but im kinda getting freaked out here.

I understand why they have ratings on games and movies ye that makes sense and tbh i think i even know why some contries legally blood has to be green. Whatever i get all that but what i dont understand is how is a democratic world any large company or orginisation with enough money can simply decide what people can and cant do?

1.Example 1 is this game

2. Death note, a great anamie - product of the internet, fans from around the world this show spread because of word of month. Its a Japanese show and i one day saw "Death Note, Season 1, Episode 1" and i thought eh its the first episode ill check it out. I got over 100 people hooked on that show and then when it became popular a company called VIZ bought the rights to it.

Two episodes before the end they issued C&D letters to anyone who was translating the show into english.

i read it and basically they used there money to buy this show and make it so that only people legally residing in the US could download it, another example of a large company/organisation deciding what people can/cant watch/play because they have money.

anyway the internet response was amazing! i have never in my life seen someone translated and then uploaded so quickly because people where that pissed off.

The point i am making is that this game will come out, its been made it does not matter if its release is banned it will get out somehow so **** em, let those people ban whatever the internet becomes more powerful and influential each year.

One of the main problems at the moment being that if it goes ahead and gets an Adults Only rating in America, Sony and Nintendo won't allow it to be released on their systems. I don't know if that will just be isolated in America or effect European countries too. It may mean the game will be completely scrapped.

The other option is of course a PC release. Still, I know I'd much rather play the Wii version myself.
Although, it is possible to get the Wiimote working with your PC now. So maybe that would be an option.

flogen

o1s1n wrote:

One of the main problems at the moment being that if it goes ahead and gets an Adults Only rating in America, Sony and Nintendo won't allow it to be released on their systems. I don't know if that will just be isolated in America or effect European countries too. It may mean the game will be completely scrapped.

As long as the game is unavailable in the US, it won't be launched anywhere else.

The US accounts for 47.68 million of the 117.89 million PS2s sold in the world - that's 40%.
The US accounts for 3.1 million of the 7.9 million Wiis sold in the world - that's also 40%.

How many games are released by American companies for European (and maybe Japanese) only audiences? It rarely, if ever, happens.

It doesn't even matter that the UK and Ireland banned it, but that doesn't help either.

Beelzebub

Bet you didn't know that!
Neither did I 'til I read this:

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=162841

Oh yeah... I'm a fan.

Edit: Correction - Manhunt was nominated but didn't win the BAFTA.
Call of Duty did.

Ciaran500

Hands on preview http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/action/manhunt2/news.html?sid=6172967&page=1

o1s1n

It would seem the Dutch are no longer as liberal as I thought.

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2007/06/dutch_may_join_manhunt_2_ban.php

Ciaran500

Just read the preview and feel even more that the ban was the wrong decision.

From the closing paragraph: "Based on what we played, Manhunt 2 is shaping up to be a solid, intriguing follow-up to the original. The game's violence and gore, which have become the mother of all lightning rods for the title, are in full effect. But, while they've been ramped up from the original game, they're not exactly going to wreck Western civilization any more than, say, the Saw and Hostel movies--or just about any other of the slasher flicks that come in and out of vogue."

Edit:noticed this bit aswell
However, downstairs things become even more extreme, with the human experimentation and torture looking like something out of the movie Hostel. However, there are environmental kills aplenty, with wire cutters and electricity offering some particularly gruesome opportunities to take out the torturers.

Nephew

Its ludicrous banning games. Why not give the game an 18 certificate and enforce the actual law so its not sold to minors. Its up to the parent to ensure their child is not playing games with adult content, especially when there is an 18 cert on the box clearly warning them it is not suitable for persons under a certain age.

I'm strictly opposed to all forms of censorship, if a film or game is too violent or sexual all it needs is to be classified as suitable for 18+, no bans, edits or removal of scenes. Seriously who has the right to tell an adult that certain content is too violent or sexual for them to watch.

wayne040576

User45701 wrote:

i didnt have time to read everything on all pages but im kinda getting freaked out here.

I understand why they have ratings on games and movies ye that makes sense and tbh i think i even know why some contries legally blood has to be green. Whatever i get all that but what i dont understand is how is a democratic world any large company or orginisation with enough money can simply decide what people can and cant do?

1.Example 1 is this game

2. Death note, a great anamie - product of the internet, fans from around the world this show spread because of word of month. Its a Japanese show and i one day saw "Death Note, Season 1, Episode 1" and i thought eh its the first episode ill check it out. I got over 100 people hooked on that show and then when it became popular a company called VIZ bought the rights to it.

Two episodes before the end they issued C&D letters to anyone who was translating the show into english.

i read it and basically they used there money to buy this show and make it so that only people legally residing in the US could download it, another example of a large company/organisation deciding what people can/cant watch/play because they have money.

anyway the internet response was amazing! i have never in my life seen someone translated and then uploaded so quickly because people where that pissed off.

The point i am making is that this game will come out, its been made it does not matter if its release is banned it will get out somehow so **** em, let those people ban whatever the internet becomes more powerful and influential each year.

The death note thing is completely different.
If you were downloading the Death Note fansubs you were technically breaking the law because it is stealing, end of story. The japanese creators of these shows tend to turn a blind eye to subbing of shows until they are licenced by a western company. Usually fansubbers stop translating an anime once it has been licenced in the west as the excuse was always that subs were the only way we could watch them. But as always there are some people who take advantage of the situation and keep subbing after a show is licenced.
You can still purchase the US dvds when they come out. But I am assuming you had no plans in buying them?

Stuxnet

well i have my manhunt 2 ordered from holland 35 euros !!

wayne040576

bobbyc wrote:

well i have my manhunt 2 ordered from holland 35 euros !!

You'll be waiting for a while. Seems Take Two have suspended its shipping date for the time being.

http://www.joystiq.com/2007/06/21/manhunt-2-temporarily-suspended-says-take-two/

stomprockin

I think the main problem is that the government does not have any macinisom in place so that minors or under 18`s cant get there hands on these type of games!
I think it’s just a knee jerk reaction, and it spoils the enjoyment of us adults playing these types of games.....:(

TechnoFreek

I have been following the development of the Manhunt story and this is the first time i feel compelled to post.

A lot of posters seem to beleive that we are being denied a game due to several reasons but mostly because under 18s can get their hands on a violent game and in turn us adults are being denied the experiecne.

It's true that any minors can get their hands on 18s games and I have been in game shops countless times and watched a parent buy the aformentioned for the son/daughter without a thought.

However in the case of Manhunt things are different.
Has anyone listened to John Kellehers interview on RTE radio where he discusses the banning? (It's on the website if you dig around)

He basically states that the main reason for banning the game is due to the constant, incessant and needless violence. He is also quoted as saying that the game "features gross levels of manipulation and torture" and "there was no context and the brutality was unrelenting and gratuitous"

His team that tested the game did so extensively and they also had access to all the cheats (assumably to ensure there was not going to be another "hot coffee" scenario). He also goes on to say that the decision he made was a highly informed one and was not a knee jerk reaction to media pressure.

I would also like to state at this point that I am totally against all forms of censorship and I for one was really looking forward to playing this game. I enjoyed the first one and in particular the dark and adult undertones of the game, the haunting music and gritty visuals.

I have no doubt in my mind that movies are more violent than games, however in movies you will only tend to get several scenes of extreme violence over the duration of the movie.

In Manhunt (and lots more games besides) you play the character executing the violence and killings every few minutes, for the period of the entire game (e.g. 8 hours). The interaction on the users behalf is far greater and I'm sure the Wii's simulation of the violence through its controls really tipped things over the edge.

Plus both sony and nintendo do not allow AO only rated games on their machines so the game was in all likelihood, always going to be under fire.

I have read, listened and watched John Kelleher in the past and I am very confident that he is a liberal man, more so than any previous Irish censor and any decision to ban Manhunt would have been given great consideration.

I suspect however that in 5/10 years time when the ps2/wii graphics look like a piece of pixellated dog turd, we will all be looking back and laughing and get back to playing the "Maxx Hardcore"* Interactive game!!

*check wikipedia if you are unfamiliar with the work of Maxx Hardcore. A true evil of the world.

Beelzebub

TechnoFreek wrote:

I have been following the development of the Manhunt story and this is the first time i feel compelled to post.

A lot of posters seem to beleive that we are being denied a game due to several reasons but mostly because under 18s can get their hands on a violent game and in turn us adults are being denied the experiecne.

It's true that any minors can get their hands on 18s games and I have been in game shops countless times and watched a parent buy the aformentioned for the son/daughter without a thought.

However in the case of Manhunt things are different.
Has anyone listened to John Kellehers interview on RTE radio where he discusses the banning? (It's on the website if you dig around)

He basically states that the main reason for banning the game is due to the constant, incessant and needless violence. He is also quoted as saying that the game "features gross levels of manipulation and torture" and "there was no context and the brutality was unrelenting and gratuitous"

His team that tested the game did so extensively and they also had access to all the cheats (assumably to ensure there was not going to be another "hot coffee" scenario). He also goes on to say that the decision he made was a highly informed one and was not a knee jerk reaction to media pressure.

I would also like to state at this point that I am totally against all forms of censorship and I for one was really looking forward to playing this game. I enjoyed the first one and in particular the dark and adult undertones of the game, the haunting music and gritty visuals.

I have no doubt in my mind that movies are more violent than games, however in movies you will only tend to get several scenes of extreme violence over the duration of the movie.

In Manhunt (and lots more games besides) you play the character executing the violence and killings every few minutes, for the period of the entire game (e.g. 8 hours). The interaction on the users behalf is far greater and I'm sure the Wii's simulation of the violence through its controls really tipped things over the edge.

Plus both sony and nintendo do not allow AO only rated games on their machines so the game was in all likelihood, always going to be under fire.

I have read, listened and watched John Kelleher in the past and I am very confident that he is a liberal man, more so than any previous Irish censor and any decision to ban Manhunt would have been given great consideration.

I suspect however that in 5/10 years time when the ps2/wii graphics look like a piece of pixellated dog turd, we will all be looking back and laughing and get back to playing the "Maxx Hardcore"* Interactive game!!

*check wikipedia if you are unfamiliar with the work of Maxx Hardcore. A true evil of the world.

Computer games have never affected me.
Certain films have.
I have had nightmares from watching certain films but no such effect from playing video games, including Manhunt.
The video game is only a game, but Movies/Films/Video make things seem so much more real than any video game can.
I've never been immersed in a video game to the extent that I have watching certain films.
I believe it is more difficult to separate reality from fiction there due to the more realistic nature of them.
And I believe they have a much stronger psychological effect.
This will change though I believe and they will eventually be indistinguishable from one another one day and maybe from reality.

Ciaran500

TechnoFreek wrote:

Plus both sony and nintendo do not allow AO only rated games on their machines so the game was in all likelihood, always going to be under fire.

Ao is 18+ every else in the world and they have never had a problem releasing the many 18+ games in every region.

TechnoFreek wrote:

I suspect however that in 5/10 years time when the ps2/wii graphics look like a piece of pixellated dog turd, we will all be looking back and laughing and get back to playing the "Maxx Hardcore"* Interactive game!!

Have you every played Manhunt? Its already like that, terrible blood squirt sprites, low res textures and low poly models. Any graphic violence is in your head, not on screen.

Also, have to completely agree with Beelzebub, I have never in my life winced, looked away or even blinked at video game violence. But its not unusual for me me to feel all these in a violent film.

BlitzKrieg

Computer games have never affected me.
Certain films have.
I have had nightmares from watching certain films but no such effect from playing video games, including Manhunt.

What I love is that there are papers...BOOKS even proving your point, that it is the lack of control and the direct one to one connection films make to your sub concious that allow them to have a great effect on you. (In your case nightmares) Video games cannot do that.

Which brings me back to my opinion, The Wii is to blame. If manhunt 2 was only going to the PS2 there would not have been a ban (dont know about the AO rating) but because it was going to the Wii which is the first console to blur the *its only a game* line with the waggle the game recieves a full blown out ban. It just got carpet banned on all machines due to the obvious media backlash if it was banned on one machine and not the other (try explaining to joe soap that its because of the waggle.)

Ciaran500

BlitzKrieg wrote:

Which brings me back to my opinion, The Wii is to blame. If manhunt 2 was only going to the PS2 there would not have been a ban (dont know about the AO rating) but because it was going to the Wii which is the first console to blur the *its only a game* line with the waggle the game recieves a full blown out ban. It just got carpet banned on all machines due to the obvious media backlash if it was banned on one machine and not the other (try explaining to joe soap that its because of the waggle.)

They should be rating each version differently and the ERSB said there choice to make it AO had nothing to do with the Wii version, just the violence.

Crucifix

Ciaran500 wrote:

Ao is 18+ every else in the world and they have never had a problem releasing the many 18+ games in every region.

He's right though, Sony and Nintendo won't allow AO games on their systems, even though they're fine with 18s in other regions. It could be that America is (or is perceived to be) more sensitive about these things, or that an AO rating is a kiss of death anyway since so many big retail chains won't sell them.

MooseJam

I picked up manhunt in game today for 15.00, they must have taken more stock in because of all the publicity, I haven't seen it there before, hope it's decent

MooseJam

TechnoFreek wrote:

*check wikipedia if you are unfamiliar with the work of Maxx Hardcore. A true evil of the world.

I did, there's nothing about him in it ?

Captain Chaos

Crucifix wrote:

He's right though, Sony and Nintendo won't allow AO games on their systems, even though they're fine with 18s in other regions. It could be that America is (or is perceived to be) more sensitive about these things, or that an AO rating is a kiss of death anyway since so many big retail chains won't sell them.

I think an AO rating in the US is 21+.
An R rating is 17+.

Ciaran500

18+