Would compulsory military service sort out Ireland's social problems?

red_ice

i read the first 3 replies and decided to get to the meat and veg of my argument.

I think its an excellent idea. People need direction in life, and for a good 50% of youths (lets face it) in Ireland it will give them something productive to do. You cant deny it, stuff like what the op has said works and anyone who doesn't agree is talking sh1te. Its blatant that the scumbags who love their cars, but cant be arsed to work for one, would get into the mechanical side of things in the army. Kids who play computer games or play paint ball would LOVE The firearms lark - i mean cmon, styer augs are a serious piece of kit.

Other than that, they would get dicipline and noone can deny that our country is in desperate need of it with all the scum thats going around the streets here.

Im all for it, im 23, and if they brought it in for the 18 year olds i would take a year out after college and take part if i could - provided it means i don't have to sign up for anything afterwards and its just for some sort of training and a feel for different areas of trade/work - without a doubt i would. I would have said 'no chance' when i was 18, but looking back i can see myself benefiting from it.

SimpleSam06

PeakOutput wrote:

besides everything else we need an army to fulfill our obligations to the international agreements we have signed up to.......like peacekeeping for example.............if the army do nothing else besides peacekeeping it is a worthwhile investment imo

International agreements can and have changed many times in the past, and there wouldn't be a great deal of repercussions if we were to pull out of "peacekeeping", which is largely toothless in any case. If you want to build a global police force, build a global police force, not part time volunteers who can be withdrawn any time their parent government feels like it.

PeakOutput

SimpleSam06 wrote:

International agreements can and have changed many times in the past, and there wouldn't be a great deal of repercussions if we were to pull out of "peacekeeping", which is largely toothless in any case.

well im sure mairt will give you the specific reasons why but im sure the people of the lebanon and congo would disagree with you

i know for a fact the people of the lebanon would as i worked with a few of them and they all knew how beneficial peacekeeping was particularly the irish peacekeepers

muletide

PeakOutput wrote:

i think he meant the amount of officers only not the general number of the defence forces

I understood his post perfectly. I too am talking about the amount of officers

SimpleSam06

PeakOutput wrote:

i know for a fact the people of the lebanon would as i worked with a few of them and they all knew how beneficial peacekeeping was particularly the irish peacekeepers

I'm not saying peacekeeping is completely useless, just that its a bit of a half assed effort. I know there are lots of people in Rwanda who would agree with me.

muletide

SimpleSam06 wrote:

I'm not saying peacekeeping is completely useless, just that its a bit of a half assed effort. I know there are lots of people in Rwanda who would agree with me.

Lets try and stick to Irish involvement and I know alot of people in Liberia who would disagree with you. Funny how no one ever speaks of the successful missions

Jumpy

Im ex army reserve. It sorted me out.
Although primarily the antisocial situation in Ireland is under 18's. So I cant see it helping too much.

SimpleSam06

muletide wrote:

Lets try and stick to Irish involvement and I know alot of people in Liberia who would disagree with you. Funny how no one ever speaks of the successful missions

There was no mission in Rwanda, although there should have been. My point in any case is we don't need an army, its an outdated burden on the country and should be replaced with a more modern approach. In fact the Rwandan situation underlines the need for a detached global police force more than anything else, and fairly proves my point.

Despite specific warnings and requests from UNAMIR's commanding officers in Rwanda, before and during the genocide, the UN Security Council refused to send additional support, declined UNAMIR's request for authorization to intervene, and even scaled back UNAMIR's forces and authority. The only foreign entity to directly intervene was the French government, which sent troops not to stop the genocide, but rather to protect the genocidal Rwandan armed forces from the invading rebels that ultimately ended the bloodshed.

Alot of teenagers might move to Canada!

theTinker

I do believe that a large part of the anti social problems we have in Ireland/Dublin are from youths below 18 years of age, however I think they would be less likely to start trouble and also far less likely to get away with it - if most of the young men/women around them have been disicplined/trained in the army. They would get thier asses kicked fairly fast. People would be alot more likely to stand up to a bunch of sh*tf*cks.

I also think it would be alot more beneficial to general society. I think a year of hard work would stop alot of lazy fecks who don't do anything.
It should also be implemented that long term users of the dole have to sign up to it to recieve training.
They could also be put to work tackling some problems in the city.

pclancy

How about using the billions spent on military funding to try and attend to the social problems that make those youths want to annoy general society? Maybe regenerate the areas where they're from, stomp out the criminal element, give them a chance at a good education or get skilled at a trade? Being bored, getting addicted to crack/heroin and feeling like society doesnt want you would be a large cause of antisocial behavior, why not try and make a difference there instead of handing them an aug and makeing them learn how to march...

Sleepy

I think an army run bootcamp would be fantastic as a rehabilitation tool for gougers. 6 months drilling, marching etc. No weapons training, just hard fitness training military style.

Stark

pclancy wrote:

How about using the billions spent on military funding to try and attend to the social problems that make those youths want to annoy general society? Maybe regenerate the areas where they're from, stomp out the criminal element, give them a chance at a good education or get skilled at a trade? Being bored, getting addicted to crack/heroin and feeling like society doesnt want you would be a large cause of antisocial behavior, why not try and make a difference there instead of handing them an aug and makeing them learn how to march...

Yeah, because throwing money at scumbags really works.

Giving people all the facilities and opportunities in the world isn't going to work if their attitude is one of entitlement, rather than earning their piece.

Drill the concept of hard work into people and you're more likely to see better results. Who knows, they might actually try looking for apprenticeships and the like when they come out, rather than sitting around waiting for a bleeding heart to sign them up.

seamus

I'd love to hear how you'd enforce this.

How do you get a 17 year old scumbag into the barracks? How do you keep him there?
Half of them aren't even getting arrested for the crimes they've committed never mind something as tiny as avoiding military service.

pclancy

Where did i mention "throwing" money at "scumbags" in that paragraph? Maybe "use" money to give people in crap areas a better chance at life and then not end up becoming "scumbags" and annoy all us lovely nice normal people? But naaah. An army is cooler and handy for '16 celebrations or escorting the banks precious money.

PeakOutput

pclancy wrote:

How about using the billions spent on military funding to try and attend to the social problems that make those youths want to annoy general society?

Maybe regenerate the areas where they're from

already being done

,

stomp out the criminal element

how exactly???

give them a chance at a good education

already done

or get skilled at a trade?

already done

Being bored, getting addicted to crack/heroin and feeling like society doesnt want you would be a large cause of antisocial behavior

lack of respect of others in general is what is causing the problem tbh

why not try and make a difference there instead of handing them an aug and makeing them learn how to march...

its called discipline which they probably have not had in their 18 years.........just my opinion

How do you get a 17 year old scumbag into the barracks?

The devil is in the details but we are talking about weather it is a good idea in general

pclancy

Ok fair enough so according to you everything that the lower end of society needs to have done to help it get off its feet has been done and the best option is to put them in the army, they'll do a year of training and come out ready to be integrated into our workforce and start being good, not bold.

Very black and white, id turn that argument around then and wonder is someone that wont do what a garda or their parents tells them to do, suddenly going to do what their sergant does just cos hes got a uniform? With todays rules of discrimination and harrasment, they cant be hit or barely shouted at? so we give them weapons and train them how to kill people? WTF?

Crazy idea, wouldnt change people that dont want to be changed and would probably turn more people AGAINST authority IMO.

seamus

PeakOutput wrote:

The devil is in the details but we are talking about weather it is a good idea in general

True.

In reality I don't think it's all that good an idea. I've yet to see any claims anywhere that compulsory military service has had a significant effect on crime rates. You can say that military service knocks some sense into some people, but then the same can be said for going to college or getting a normal job. Some people will cop on. Other won't.

Despite what movies would teach us, the army doesn't turn people into robots. There's an initial stage that knocks people into the disciplined structure, but once they get back into the real world, they're likely to resume their former roles.

It would be at most as effective as throwing money at the Gardai and hiring more of them, which is the real problem. While I'll say no, it's not really a good idea, overwhelmingly I believe it would be a pointless endeavour in our current set up.

PeakOutput

pclancy wrote:

Ok fair enough so according to you everything that the lower end of society needs to

<snip>

dont want to be changed and would probably turn more people AGAINST authority IMO.

its not the only solution or even the best solution but it is a solution

i think the main people it will benefit are the "follower" types who are just succoming to scumbag peer pressure and therefore being a scumbag themselves.........i happen to believe these are the majority

i think it would also help the "upper class" cop the **** on and learn to appreciate how lucky they are lets not get bogged down with the scummers here

watsgone

Sleepy wrote:

I think an army run bootcamp would be fantastic as a rehabilitation tool for gougers. 6 months drilling, marching etc. No weapons training, just hard fitness training military style.

I like this idea more, a form of punishment with a moral.

seamus

watsgone wrote:

I like this idea more, a form of punishment with a moral.

That's actually more like something I can get behind. Have prisoners doing hard work, learning useful skills (even the most basic ones) and basically getting no time to think from morning to night.

Those who actually enjoy the lifestyle could then be sponsored when their jail term ends, for entry into the armed forces (depending on their crime, and what the prison officers think), to spend a minimum amount of, say five years in the army.

Those who don't enjoy the lifestyle won't go back.

DublinWriter

pclancy wrote:

How about using the billions spent on military funding to try and attend to the social problems that make those youths want to annoy general society? Maybe regenerate the areas where they're from, stomp out the criminal element, give them a chance at a good education or get skilled at a trade?

Last time I looked, Vocational Education in Ireland was free, so training for a trade is not a problem if you want to do it.

As for regenerating the areas where they are from? People never appreicate what they get for free. Even the Neil Mellon Township Trust 'sells' the homes they build to Shantytown residents for that one reason.

If it's your community, your neighbourhood, you feckin maintain it. Half the problem in those areas is that people expect so much to be done for them when the rest of us mugs are paying four-figure sums to so-called private management companies to have our grass cut once a year.

Secondly, I worked in a lot of European Countries that had, or still have National Service. I'm not staying that there's a direct corelation, but there wasn't the same scumbag underclass in those places (Germany, Belgium) that you find in Ireland and the UK.

For those that think the army is all about weapons training, square-bashing and going out and killing people, the army teaches you basic life skills, like how to make yer feckin bed and iron your own shirt without mammy doing it for you.

It also encourages and trains in trades, teaches you how to work as part of a team, and gives you experiences of other nations and cultures that you wouldn't get as an average 20-something year old.

'Bring back National Service!' used to be a common mantra in the UK in the 60's and 70's. I kinda see why now.

irishgeo

perhaps i may have over complicated the matter by going into too much detail regarding the exact type of training etc people might get.

I was aiming for more of a general idea of getting people into the army.As one poster said it gives people basic life skills and some discipline.

Another poster said how you going to keep people from defecting i know one sure way of doing it. No dole to defectors would keep a lot of people there.

I think it would be a good way and it wont stop peple going to college perhaps we could have an extra grant to people who do military service and go to college after.

Perhaps weapons training need not be in it. But i do think trainee's could help guard money transfers and etc along with a team of fully trained soldiers.

I mean we have the garda reserve working fully trained guards so why not the army.

i should have added a poll.

DublinWriter

irishgeo wrote:

I mean we have the garda reserve working fully trained guards so why not the army.

Great idea, except that you're about 50 years too late. They are called the FCA.

Takeshi_Kovacs

Hmmm, maybe we should strive to be like Switzerland... All males are required to perform some form of military through their lives, and crime and gun crime is especially low. Granted, Ireland is a different country historically culturally e.t.c., but it is a system which could have major benefits for the country. Although, i would think it would take a good while before any meaningful results would be achieved. The problem needs to be tackled at grassroots level, in the family.
http://pages.prodigy.net/vanhooser/the_swiss_and_their_guns.htm

Yet we can't be too lenient on all these 'skangers' and 'scumbags' and let them have free roam. They must know discipline, and i do believe some form of basic military training should be an option to those repeat offenders of minor crimes.

We just can't sit back and moan and whinge about these problems. Tackle them now, before they continue to fester and eat at the core of society.

I am also displeased at some peoples attitude of our national army. We have very fine officers and soldiers who do do a very professional job, who are well regarded around the world, and to see some posts with 'we don't need an army, shure who's going to invade us' type attitude, is just, well, pathetic really. You know, being a soldier isn't necessarily all about being a killing machine.

muletide

irishgeo wrote:

.

I mean we have the garda reserve working fully trained guards so why not the army.

i should have added a poll.

Ahh we have.. check your facts before posting

Manic Moran

Danish lass I was talking to did her mandatory time in the Civil Defense Flood Control section. It seems that although Israel is the only country to enforce military conscription on both men and women, other countries will force women to some form of national service outside the military.

I don't have too much of a problem with it. I just don't think that anyone should be in the Army who doesn't want to be. Feel free to make the Army tours shorter, as it's probably a harder year than some other possible positions, but don't make it mandatory. As a troop, I'm less than enthralled about trying to train with someone who really has no desire to be there. Means he might not learn something, and might get me killed when he needs to put it into effect.

NTM

Zillah

Manic Moran wrote:

I don't have too much of a problem with it. I just don't think that anyone should be in the Army who doesn't want to be.

Even though democracy needs military force to maintain it? Are you happy letting other people serve that role for you?

Judt

Ooo, you leave for five minutes and somebody is calling for conscription.

Re: Military conscription, I always love this notion that the military would be happy to receive society's problems. Look at world trends: Conscripted armies are crap, and the likes of the French have gone all professional, and the German Army is only made up to a small degree by national service types. The majority are professional.

Conscripts don't make good soldiers, and the army doesn't nessecerally make good people - many of the things on the OP's list one could name as big features of military life, for example. Binge drinking? Ever been near the PDF? Three pubs to a barracks, minimum. We could laugh about the fattest men in the army and suchlike... But basically it's not a magic machine. You don't come out after 24 weeks of training (less for conscripts, one would imagine) and suddenly be a shining light of society.

As to the idea of making everyone do non-military service - working in hospitals, civil defence (flood work and suchlike). Now that I can buy into. You're not going to change peoples habits, but you can put them to good use. Besides, I actually think that for example a year working with an NGO overseas as part of your service - something that could be quite popular? - would have a more profound effect on you than spending a year pissing around a barracks pulling duties.

nobodythere

OP, something tells me old age is gonna like you.

McSandwich

seamus wrote:

I'd love to hear how you'd enforce this.

How do you get a 17 year old scumbag into the barracks? How do you keep him there?
Half of them aren't even getting arrested for the crimes they've committed never mind something as tiny as avoiding military service.

Make attendance a condition for reciept of social welfare. Also, provide training courses which might lead to jobs afterwards.

McSandwich

Zillah wrote:

Wow. You do realise that a large amount of people don't even do the leaving cert, and a much larger proportion don't go to college? We want people to go to college. Lets not delay them with mandatory military service.

Getting in is one thing but the difficult part is getting people to stay in college. A year of training would be beneficial in terms of disipline and maturity (many school leavers aren't ready for college). It might've shortened my own route through college

Saruman

I do not think it should be complsory for everyone no.. however it should be used instead of a prison sentence for certain types... like the ASBO's that have it been issued yet.

Can you imagine the cost to the taxpayer if very person had to spend a year or so in the military?

Sangre

Zillah wrote:

Even though democracy needs military force to maintain it? Are you happy letting other people serve that role for you?

You do realise you just quoted someone who is in the army?

Ruen

DublinWriter wrote:

If it's your community, your neighbourhood, you feckin maintain it. Half the problem in those areas is that people expect so much to be done for them when the rest of us mugs are paying four-figure sums to so-called private management companies to have our grass cut once a year.

Haha fools, one of the perks of living in a gated community I suppose. I cut my own grass for free....it's really easy:D

Ruen

McSandwich wrote:

Make attendance a condition for reciept of social welfare. Also, provide training courses which might lead to jobs afterwards.

And what if the scumbags daddy is rich and he doesnt need social welfare, how would they make him go?

arybvtcw0eolkf

muletide wrote:

Tell me you are joking about our strength at the moment beng comparable to the Emergency. Do you have a full compliment in Galway? (I already know the answer)

Are you talking about officers (commissioned officers) or Enlisted per's?.

Plus what 'emergency' are you talking about, WWII (when Ireland had an 'emergency' and the rest of the world had a world war) of the 'emergency' strenght and power's of the early 70's?.

I think you should also read exactly what I wrote again.

spooiirt!!

National service in germany is a joke, first of all its discrimination against males because only men are forced to do it, but discrimination against men is ok I suppose.

Secondly its extremely inefficient because you are delaying peoples entry into their colleges and careers by a whole year. Having potential doctors, engineers and other important contributors to society spending a year of their youth wiping old peoples asses or rolling around in the mud with a gun on their backs is ridiculous, seeing as they could be in college.

Third, its anti-freedom. If a man knows whe he wants i.e. to go straight to college after school he shouldnt be forced to do otherwise.

sunnyjim

Easy solution

Penal Battalions.

muletide

Mairt wrote:

Are you talking about officers (commissioned officers) or Enlisted per's?.

Plus what 'emergency' are you talking about, WWII (when Ireland had an 'emergency' and the rest of the world had a world war) of the 'emergency' strenght and power's of the early 70's?.

I think you should also read exactly what I wrote again.

Tell me you are joking about officer strength being comparable to the 70's. do you have a full compliment in Galway (I know the answer)

I read your post and understood it perfectly and you are wrong we do need extra officers - alot of them


I was talking about officers, as you were.

And for your information when people use the phrase "emergency" they are normally referring to WWII.

strength strength strength - not strenght ( sorry that was just bugging me - you learn something new everyday)

Judt

muletide wrote:

Tell me you are joking about officer strength being comparable to the 70's. do you have a full compliment in Galway (I know the answer)

I read your post and understood it perfectly and you are wrong we do need extra officers - alot of them


I was talking about officers, as you were.

And for your information when people use the phrase "emergency" they are normally referring to WWII.

strength strength strength - not strenght ( sorry that was just bugging me - you learn something new everyday)

We do???? Thanks for informing us, here was most of the military establishment thinking we had too many. Well aren't we all glad that we have folks like you to tell us that we need even more bigwigs. Pretty soon we can have sections, and maybe even platoons, where everyone is an officer! Maybe we can get rid of those dirty enlisted men altogether? Now wouldn't that be fun....

Anyways, back to conscription. The German thing isn't discriminatory in that anyone can opt out of the military and go do real social work - give something back to society before they head off for that wonderful four year piss up at the states extent (or, even better, drop out after one year at the states expense.)

Still, I hold the view that military conscription 1. Doesn't solve many problems with the "troubled youth" and 2. It certainly doesn't help the military to do its job.

Social conscription? Maybe. But I'd love to see how they'd do it in Ireland...

arybvtcw0eolkf

muletide wrote:

Tell me you are joking about officer strength being comparable to the 70's. do you have a full compliment in Galway (I know the answer)

I read your post and understood it perfectly and you are wrong we do need extra officers - alot of them


I was talking about officers, as you were.

And for your information when people use the phrase "emergency" they are normally referring to WWII.

strength strength strength - not strenght ( sorry that was just bugging me - you learn something new everyday)

Ok, well lets see. Ermmmmmmmmmm, lets create more one officer appointment oversea's to keep promotion moving back home and look after jobs for the boys.

Oh yea, and lets not use NCO's to fly our aircraft like most other armies & airforces, because then we could actually reduce our officer numbers.

Strenght or strength, big deal :rolleyes: .. FCA or RDF which one are you?

muletide

Mairt wrote:

Ok, well lets see. Ermmmmmmmmmm, lets create more one officer appointment oversea's to keep promotion moving back home and look after jobs for the boys.

Oh yea, and lets not use NCO's to fly our aircraft like most other armies & airforces, because then we could actually reduce our officer numbers.

Strenght or strength, big deal :rolleyes: .. FCA or RDF which one are you?

I didnt come here to compare penis sizes with you or to try and compare service. I know what I am talking about and you admitted you were wrong in your initial point so lets just leave it at that.

And your feelings towards officers are well noted from previous postings. I wonder if you are as vocal about them face to face.

muletide

Judt wrote:

We do???? Thanks for informing us, here was most of the military establishment thinking we had too many. Well aren't we all glad that we have folks like you to tell us that we need even more bigwigs. Pretty soon we can have sections, and maybe even platoons, where everyone is an officer! Maybe we can get rid of those dirty enlisted men altogether? Now wouldn't that be fun....

I am merely pointing out that we do. The second half of your point is just facetious so I wont address it.

arybvtcw0eolkf

muletide wrote:

I didnt come here to compare penis sizes with you or to try and compare service. I know what I am talking about and you admitted you were wrong in your initial point so lets just leave it at that.

And your feelings towards officers are well noted from previous postings. I wonder if you are as vocal about them face to face.

My feelings re. officers?.

I've the height of respect for officer's, in fact my father is a retired officer.

As regards comparing penis size, pal your the one to make this one stupid.

I just think its a little desparate to try belittle someone on a spelling mistake to make yourself up good.

constitutionus

ha ha oh sorry but this thread is so funny.

the only thing worse than a scumbag is a military trained scumbag

Judt

muletide wrote:

I am merely pointing out that we do. The second half of your point is just facetious so I wont address it.

Alright, break it down for me - where do we need them?

muletide

In every single unit that the army has.

Show me one Infantry Battalion that has a full compliment of Capts or Lts or Comdts and I will back down. If you are in the army you will realise that there is no unit without offr vacancies.

Anyway we are taking this off topic so we should just leave it. I just wanted to point out an inaccuracy in an earlier post.

Dr Strange

spooiirt!! wrote:

National service in germany is a joke...

Secondly its extremely inefficient because you are delaying peoples entry into their colleges and careers by a whole year. Having potential doctors, engineers and other important contributors to society spending a year of their youth wiping old peoples asses or rolling around in the mud with a gun on their backs is ridiculous, seeing as they could be in college.

First of all, the German military service is open to women and men. The National Service is undertaken by men. The Service is there for to train every man at a certain age to be able to defend their country in times of conflict and not to boost military personnel numbers. There is a difference in what National Service Personnel does (basic training and specialistion) to what an enlisted full-time soldier does. That is why the term "Conscript" is not the right term to use in comparison to German National Service.

Also, if someone started a University course, apprenticeship etc before their call to the National Service arrived, they will be allowed to complete the course/apprenticeship etc and, depending on their age at the end may be called again. People who are already in a job when called for National Service will not loose it if it is a permanent contract job.

Best,
P.

the_syco

irishgeo wrote:

7. Self Defence - they would pick up some self defence training as well as training on firearms, which would i think benefit them later in life.

Invaluable if you live in Limerick:D