Homophobia in Christianity

Zombrex

Jakkass wrote:

He think that is it favourable to be celibate. For some people it is, for others it isn't. That's what the point is. He finds it favourable to be celibate.

Except that is actually what Paul says.

"It is good for a man not to marry. But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband."

"Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion."

Paul very clearly says to the crowd that if you are already married you should not become unmarried because doing so would break a commandment to God

Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.

"Keeping God's commands is what counts. Each one should remain in the situation which he was in when God called him."

He is also clearly saying he wishes that those who are not already married (ie everyone born after around 50AD) should not get married, but recognizes that because of sinful nature we should get married rather than fall into sin.

Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

The one thing that Paul is NOT saying is that getting married is as good as being celibate. You should remain in the state that you were in when you were called. If you are not already married you should not get married if you can fend off sin

Nevertheless, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches.

robindch

After the stories in the last month or two about the stone throwing, arrests and assaults at the gay march in Moscow, the orthodox church's "cleansing" of the river Moskva after a gay cruise passed down the river, the Israeli police catching a jewish bomber on his way to a gay march in Jerusalem, there comes this unpleasant story:

http://www.click2houston.com/news/13516694/detail.html
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4968717.html

...in which a guy is alleged to have gone to a gay bar in Houston TX, picked up a gay guy, returned to his flat, stabbed him with a six-inch blade, then apparently burned the corpse and dumped it. The alleged killer is quoted as saying that he "planned on sending him to hell,", that he believed "with all my heart that I was doing the right thing", that he studied the bible for "thousands and thousands and thousands of hours", and finally, saying "It's not that I'm a bad dude, [...] I love God."

Do any christians reading this story feel that there is any possible linkage between the traditional christian message that the actions of gay guys are morally repugnant, and this nutcase murdering a guy he met in a bar?

philologos

Jewish theology suggests that people are judged on earth for their actions. That is probably why this man thought that it was acceptable. Or that he was carrying out the capital punishment described in the Law of Moses.

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote:

Nevertheless, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches.

And for some it is a married life that God has called them to.

BrianCalgary

robindch wrote:

After the stories in the last month or two about the stone throwing, arrests and assaults at the gay march in Moscow, the orthodox church's "cleansing" of the river Moskva after a gay cruise passed down the river, the Israeli police catching a jewish bomber on his way to a gay march in Jerusalem, there comes this unpleasant story:

http://www.click2houston.com/news/13516694/detail.html
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4968717.html

...in which a guy is alleged to have gone to a gay bar in Houston TX, picked up a gay guy, returned to his flat, stabbed him with a six-inch blade, then apparently burned the corpse and dumped it. The alleged killer is quoted as saying that he "planned on sending him to hell,", that he believed "with all my heart that I was doing the right thing", that he studied the bible for "thousands and thousands and thousands of hours", and finally, saying "It's not that I'm a bad dude, [...] I love God."

Do any christians reading this story feel that there is any possible linkage between the traditional christian message that the actions of gay guys are morally repugnant, and this nutcase murdering a guy he met in a bar?

No. As much as the linkage between goths and the murder of a family in Medicine Hat (a 12 year old girl and her 23 yr old boyfriend murdered the girls family, the killers were involved in th egoth lifestyle), or the gamers who shot up Columbine.

These people who do such things are mentally ill and if it wasn't for the Bible he would have done it for some other reason.

Sapien

robindch wrote:

After the stories in the last month or two about the stone throwing, arrests and assaults at the gay march in Moscow, the orthodox church's "cleansing" of the river Moskva after a gay cruise passed down the river, the Israeli police catching a jewish bomber on his way to a gay march in Jerusalem, there comes this unpleasant story:

http://www.click2houston.com/news/13516694/detail.html
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4968717.html

...in which a guy is alleged to have gone to a gay bar in Houston TX, picked up a gay guy, returned to his flat, stabbed him with a six-inch blade, then apparently burned the corpse and dumped it. The alleged killer is quoted as saying that he "planned on sending him to hell,", that he believed "with all my heart that I was doing the right thing", that he studied the bible for "thousands and thousands and thousands of hours", and finally, saying "It's not that I'm a bad dude, [...] I love God."

Do any christians reading this story feel that there is any possible linkage between the traditional christian message that the actions of gay guys are morally repugnant, and this nutcase murdering a guy he met in a bar?

Also, two lesbians were raped and executed in Soweto, SA last week. The culprits had not been apprehended last I heard, so there can be no certainty about whether the murders were motivated by religion, though many believe it was part of a backlash reaction against the recent introduction of marriage for same-sex couples in South Africa

interestinguser

These people who do such things are mentally ill and if it wasn't for the Bible he would have done it for some other reason.

I really don't get how you can say this when it states quite clearly in the OT that gay people should be put to death.

JimiTime

interestinguser wrote:

I really don't get how you can say this when it states quite clearly in the OT that gay people should be put to death.

Mosaic Law! We are not under Mosaic Law. We are not the nation of Israel. the Mosaic Law was for a nation. So in the context of 'all' the scriptures, we are not entitled to put anyone to death. End Of! We are 'Christians', not Israelites!

robindch

brianCalgary wrote:

robindch wrote:

Do any christians reading this story feel that there is any possible linkage between the traditional christian message that the actions of gay guys are morally repugnant, and this nutcase murdering a guy he met in a bar?

No. As much as the linkage between goths and the murder of a family in Medicine Hat (a 12 year old girl and her 23 yr old boyfriend murdered the girls family, the killers were involved in th egoth lifestyle), or the gamers who shot up Columbine.

Well, is it a fundamental tenet of the "goth lifestyle" that the activities of families are morally repugnant in the same way that it's a fundamental tenet of christianity that the activities of homosexuals are morally repugnant? If goths don't say anything about the moral evil of families, then you're comparing apples and oranges -- the two cases are completely different.

BrianCalgary wrote:

These people who do such things are mentally ill and if it wasn't for the Bible he would have done it for some other reason.

Really? I don't think so -- the guy was certainly unbalanced, but he understood what he had to do and had a simple religious justification for his murder, which is identical to what posters here have said (and even you, on one occasion, have told me that I'll be going to hell, but I know you're not going to kill me. Well, I hope anyway )

BTW, I came across this story which is fairly local to you -- a preacher wrote an open letter to a newspaper which called for people to "take whatever steps are necessary to reverse the wickedness" of the "homosexual machine." Following this, there was apparently a hate attack on a gay boy. Do you still believe that there is no linkage between public preaching of the moral repugnance of gays, and the fact of gay hate crimes?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20070717.RIGHTS17/TPStory

CelloPoint

robindch wrote:

BTW, I came across this story which is fairly local to you -- a preacher wrote an open letter to a newspaper which called for people to "take whatever steps are necessary to reverse the wickedness" of the "homosexual machine." Following this, there was apparently a hate attack on a gay boy. Do you still believe that there is no linkage between public preaching of the moral repugnance of gays, and the fact of gay hate crimes?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20070717.RIGHTS17/TPStory

I wonder do those statistics take misinterpretation of the preacher into account? Probably not. It's idiotic gurriers who go around bashing homosexuals outside the George. There will always be those who are easily manipulated into criminal acts, whether it's bashing homosexuals or opposing football supporters, the criminal element is the same. It is not the case that people who preach that homosexual acts are disgusting and immoral are responsible for criminal activity. The violence by such gurriers would happen anyway.

On "Homophobia in Christianity": The RCC is akin to a club - our club, our rules. Just like Portmarnock golf club.

BrianCalgary

robindch wrote:

Well, is it a fundamental tenet of the "goth lifestyle" that the activities of families are morally repugnant in the same way that it's a fundamental tenet of christianity that the activities of homosexuals are morally repugnant? If goths don't say anything about the moral evil of families, then you're comparing apples and oranges -- the two cases are completely different.Really? I don't think so -- the guy was certainly unbalanced, but he understood what he had to do and had a simple religious justification for his murder, which is identical to what posters here have said (and even you, on one occasion, have told me that I'll be going to hell, but I know you're not going to kill me. Well, I hope anyway

The gothlifestyle is anti establishment which would include families. The Christian teaching is definitely against killing.

The point being that criminals have placed the blame on outside influences for their crimes, God included, instead of taking responsibility for their own actions.

Don't worry I wouldn't dream of killing you, I still hold out hope that you will come to know the Christ that I know and we'll share a nice cuppa in Heaven one day.

robindch wrote:

BTW, I came across this story which is fairly local to you -- a preacher wrote an open letter to a newspaper which called for people to "take whatever steps are necessary to reverse the wickedness" of the "homosexual machine." Following this, there was apparently a hate attack on a gay boy. Do you still believe that there is no linkage between public preaching of the moral repugnance of gays, and the fact of gay hate crimes?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20070717.RIGHTS17/TPStory

With this story, I hav enever seen the whole letter just snippets of it. The only part that is seemingly ever quoted is this bit: "take whatever steps are necessary to reverse the wickedness" of the "homosexual machine."

Then it is linked to this particular crime. I don't know if the kid ever said that the letter spurred him to do it.

I do think though that there are two influences here. One is the militant gay lobby itself (I really don't like militant lobbyists of any stripe) and the one line that the pastor wrote. So yes it coul dhave some influence. But I woul dsurmise that the pastor was thinking political methods of stopping the gay agenda. Through letter writing and influence in the schools and the public office.

robindch

BrianCalgary wrote:

The goth lifestyle is anti establishment which would include families.

You're rather uninformed about the goth lifestyle, not to mention inaccurate in saying that they are "anti-family" (whatever that means). For your info, the wikipedia entry on goth philosophy, as far as there is such a thing, is pretty accurate:

Wikipedia wrote:

Many in the media have incorrectly associated the Goth subculture with violence, hatred of minorities, white supremacy, and other acts of hate. However, violence and hate do not form elements of goth ideology; rather, the ideology is formed in part by recognition, identification, and grief over societal and personal evils that the mainstream culture wishes to ignore or forget.

...and it's certainly my experience of goth-dressing people that they are thoughtful, careful, decent people, even if they have crappy taste in clothes and music.

So, you haven't really shown that there is any connection with the goth lifestyle and the murders you mentioned.

BC wrote:

The Christian teaching is definitely against killing.

We've shown many instances in the bible where murder is permitted and even encouraged. And while your personal interpretation of christianity may disagree, there are plenty of christians who think that murdering people is a pretty good idea -- George Bush springs to mind. Wouldn't you agree?

BrianCalgary wrote:

So, yes it could have some influence.

Yes, I agree with you (obviously enough!) So given this, would you agree that saying things like which may be construed as calling for violence is a bad idea? No matter how strongly you feel about whatever it is that you don't like?

BrianCalgary wrote:

But I would surmise that the pastor was thinking political methods of stopping the gay agenda. Through letter writing and influence in the schools and the public office.

Perhaps, but if it's the case, then he certainly didn't seem to say it. And that's a worrying omission.

Just to make my position clear -- I don't have any problem with people disliking one group or another. I may not like them doing so, and generally don't, but there's nothing I can do about it and I expect them to extend the same respect towards my likes and dislikes. What I have a terminally serious problem with is guys like this preacher who, while claiming to speak on behalf of the creator of the universe, calls for "whatever steps are necessary" to be taken to remove an alleged threat delivered by whatever group he personally finds offensive. I find it far too reminiscent of the Germany of the 1930's. It should surprise nobody that some fools take them at their word and go and carry out what they have been instructed to do. It smacks of irresponsibility of the highest order, not helped by the attitude of the religious preacher concerned to cry foul and claim that he's the one being offended, and not the unfortunate minority group whom he's wished total eradication upon.

Red Hand

BrianCalgary wrote:

The gothlifestyle is anti establishment which would include families. The Christian teaching is definitely against killing.

To be honest most "movements" and "sub-cultures" whether they be hippys, Goths, Metallers, or whatever are mostly about posing, and going with the flow. Boards.ie itself is a subculture, and as far as I can see, is not against families. I myself am a poser here.:) The Thunderdrome (methinks it goes against family values? Its a pretty unkind place tbh, and quite nasty) on this website is equivalent to those few Goths who are obsessed by things morbd, or claim to be-every subculture will have extremes. Yet, methinks that you will not post there, and neither will for that matter. Those that do-well, you get them in every culture, religion, whatever...its their claim to fame whether that be just immaturity, ignorance or just being "extreme".

interestinguser

Mosaic Law! We are not under Mosaic Law. We are not the nation of Israel. the Mosaic Law was for a nation. So in the context of 'all' the scriptures, we are not entitled to put anyone to death. End Of! We are 'Christians', not Israelites!

So it is perfectly acceptable for Israelis to kill homosexuals? You don't see anything wrong with people from Israel killing gays? You don't see anything wrong with the idea of your god telling people that they should put homosexuals to death?

PDN

Sapien wrote:

Also, two lesbians were raped and executed in Soweto, SA last week. The culprits had not been apprehended last I heard, so there can be no certainty about whether the murders were motivated by religion, though many believe it was part of a backlash reaction against the recent introduction of marriage for same-sex couples in South Africa

Maybe that could be better phrased to: "not the slightest hint as to whether the murders were motivated by religion".

I would certainly disagree with anyone, religious or otherwise, who makes comments designed to whip up violence or hatred against any group of people.

There is, of course, a world of difference between teaching that practicing homosexuality is incompatible with practicing Christianity, and advocating hatred against homosexuals. Christians have, in the past, been killed for their views on homosexuality. However, I am not so stupid or hysterical as to suggest that all those who criticise Christianity are somehow guilty of contributing to violence against Christians.

robindch

PDN wrote:

I would certainly disagree with anyone, religious or otherwise, who makes comments designed to whip up violence or hatred against any group of people.

Ah yes, but would you condemn people who do this? Or do you just disagree with them?

PDN

robindch wrote:

Ah yes, but would you condemn people who do this? Or do you just disagree with them?

Of course I would condemn any statement that is designed to promote violence or hatred (although then, by some people's logic, my condemnation might incite someone to murder them).

BrianCalgary

robindch wrote:

Just to make my position clear -- I don't have any problem with people disliking one group or another. I may not like them doing so, and generally don't, but there's nothing I can do about it and I expect them to extend the same respect towards my likes and dislikes. What I have a terminally serious problem with is guys like this preacher who, while claiming to speak on behalf of the creator of the universe, calls for "whatever steps are necessary" to be taken to remove an alleged threat delivered by whatever group he personally finds offensive. I find it far too reminiscent of the Germany of the 1930's. It should surprise nobody that some fools take them at their word and go and carry out what they have been instructed to do. It smacks of irresponsibility of the highest order, not helped by the attitude of the religious preacher concerned to cry foul and claim that he's the one being offended, and not the unfortunate minority group whom he's wished total eradication upon.

And here we agree. What is also very disturbing about it is that a pastor writes the letter, stating his view, someone acts on it and we blame all Christians for the act? That is also frightening in that now Christians are portrayed as evil murderous thugs bent on the elimination of all that is good and decent.

robindch

BrianCalgary wrote:

What is also very disturbing about it is that a pastor writes the letter, stating his view, someone acts on it and we blame all Christians for the act?

I must say that I find it a strange a decent guy like you can seem to support the preacher's violent and inflammatory letter -- I certainly can't imagine you writing what the preacher wrote -- and even worse, then washing your hands of it when the preacher's call to action actually happens. I find that disingenuous and unbecoming. You either disagree with the preacher and reject his call to action, or you do not. And at the moment, you seem to agree with him and his call for eradication, and that's unsettling.

Or, to put it another way, how would you feel if I were to publish a letter calling for christians to be eradicated, and some hotheads took me at my word and started attacking christians? Do you think that it would be fair of me to say that it was nothing to do with me, even if the guys claimed me as a motivating factor? Do you really think that one need show no responsibility when saying things in public?

PDN

robindch wrote:

I must say that I find it a strange a decent guy like you can seem to support the preacher's violent and inflammatory letter -- I certainly can't imagine you writing what the preacher wrote -- and even worse, then washing your hands of it when the preacher's call to action actually happens. I find that disingenuous and unbecoming. You either disagree with the preacher and reject his call to action, or you do not. And at the moment, you seem to agree with him and his call for eradication, and that's unsettling.

Or, to put it another way, how would you feel if I were to publish a letter calling for christians to be eradicated, and some hotheads took me at my word and started attacking christians? Do you think that it would be fair of me to say that it was nothing to do with me, even if the guys claimed me as a motivating factor? Do you really think that one need show no responsibility when saying things in public?

Is there any way we can know what was actually in the letter (sorry if a link has already been posted, but I can't see it)? So far all we have is two quotes "take whatever steps are necessary to reverse the wickedness" and "homosexual machine." Now, maybe he did write something inflammatory, but what we have so far in no way equates with calling for people to be eradicated.

For example, I could understand it if a secularist, annoyed at attempts to teach creationism in schools, wrote a letter saying, "We must do everything in our power to stop the Christian machine". A bit of context would help.

robindch

PDN wrote:

Is there any way we can know what was actually in the
letter

The first article I posted quoted bits and pieces of it and I took just a couple of those. Something claiming to be the full letter appears on a website belongong to somebody claiming to be the preacher concerned:

http://canadianpastor.blogspot.com/

Some short quotes to give some flavor of what this chap is going on about:

canadianPreacher wrote:

"I cannot pity you", "My banner has now been raised and war has been declared", "With me stand the greatest weapons that you have encountered", "your grandchildren are being strategically targeted, psychologically abused and brainwashed by homosexual and pro-homosexual educators", "Our children are being victimized by repugnant and premeditated strategies, aimed at desensitizing and eventually recruiting our young into their camps.", "children as young as five and six years of age are being subjected to psychologically and physiologically damaging pro-homosexual literature", "Your children are being warped", "It's time to stand together and take whatever steps are necessary to reverse the wickedness that our lethargy has authorized to spawn. Where homosexuality flourishes, all manner of wickedness abounds.", "the militant homosexual agenda isn't rooted in protecting homosexuals from "gay bashing."", "They are perverse, self-centered and morally deprived individuals who are spreading their psychological disease", "Homosexual rights activists ... are just as immoral as the pedophiles, drug dealers and pimps", "The homosexual agenda gaining ground simply because you, Mr. and Mrs. Heterosexual, do nothing to stop it.", "how bad do things have to become before you will get involved?", "It's time to start taking back what the enemy has taken from you."

Does anybody feel that the website's claim that this letter is "written in love" is perhaps less than accurate?

Ibjiba

One of the main problems lies with the long standing traditions within Christianity, where homosexuality has been a big no no. I can't see how that can be justified with the modern interpretations we have of the bible today. In my opinion, homophobia within Christianity is just a relic of the past.

Sapien

PDN wrote:

Maybe that could be better phrased to: "not the slightest hint as to whether the murders were motivated by religion".

Being of a less diplomatic disposition than robin, I am not inclined to entertain any efforts to draw the blame for societal homophobia away from religion in general, or Christianity where it is dominant.