Is the French method of Parenting cruel?

kelle

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/global/main.jhtml?xml=/global/2007/06/15/nosplit/ftmaman115.xml

undecided

wow cant believe that! I`m gobsmacked!

IMO this is a cruel way of child rearing. Children are human being not animals to be trained. They should have the freedom to develop their own personalities not programmed llike robots.

In saying that children do need boundries and need to learn respect for others.

The remark about the nine year old at the dinner party ... I have 2 kids (6&4)and can have dinner parties etc. I ask them to go play upstair watch tv etc and they do if they do wish to come in to say something I listen and respond it only takes a few moments and they are content with that.

Dont believe in ..seen and not heard, slapping and try not to shout or swear. Try to listen and explain and talk and i think this works. I do believe that boredom and lack of communication are two of the main things that cause children to misbehave.

***Few children are BOLD...there is a reason why they display this behavour!

mike65

The French are tough, no question. They have the right idea just that they maybe go a bit too far. Nothing wrong with discipline and imparting the fact that you (the child) are not to be pampered and indulged to the point of tyranny.

Mike.

CJhaughey

I would take anything from the torygraph with a large measure of NaCl, saying that I do think that many kids in anglophone countries are spoilt and grow up believing that they are the centre of the universe.
I believe that there is a generation growing up that have never learnt discipline or respect and it shows.

Saruman

Well i believe that society has got more violent and more out of control than 100 years ago when discipline was enforced while growing up. In my dads time you could be caned in school!! What was perfectly normal then would not be grounds for a prison sentence.
The French was is probably a little over the top, however it has a lot of merit. You cant even physically reprimand a child these days and a lot of them need it. They need a physical boundary. I dread to think how i would have turned out if i did not get the wooden spoon or the American baptist style paddle when i was growing up. Im in my late 20's now and perfectly normal and hold no grudges over my parents, or more importantly my dad as the one who tended to do most of the punishment I needed it. Had the only punishment been words i would not have paid attention.
I know there are plenty of people on boards who say they see no reason to ever smack a child and if they can get away with that then fine but not everyone is so lucky.

nesf

mike65 wrote:

The French are tough, no question. They have the right idea just that they maybe go a bit too far. Nothing wrong with discipline and imparting the fact that you (the child) are not to be pampered and indulged to the point of tyranny.

Mike.

Yeah and conversely Irish and British parents are too far in the other direction. Give me an over-disciplined child over an over-spoilt child any day.

WindSock

I hate the namby pambying of kids, almost as much as I hate child abuse.

Nothing wrong with a bit of discipline.

Nevyn

I don't see it as namby pambying tbh I see a lot of that as neglect.
Give the child what ever it wants to distract it and shut it up be it sweets, tv toys, tech, mobile phone etc etc, when the child needs boundaries and discipline and positive inter action with the parents.

I got rid of the jar of sweets as rewards instead they get extra time with me,
for a game of chess or checkers or some other board game and extra reading time with a reward book.

Kids also need responsibilities and chores, to make them part of the house hold and make them respect the house and the work that goes into maintaining it.
These are routine but there are also punishment chores, like washing down all the doors upstairs.

Manners do start in the home as so does respect if children don't' see use using please and thank you then it is hard to make them do it.

pwd

I saw some of this in Paris and Disneyland, but I also saw a group of French kids running a bit wild in front of their parent/minder.
There are an awful lot of spoilt children in Ireland though. I've seen a good few kids throwing tantrums in supermarkets because they want something, and the parent responding by giving it to them, which just teaches them to throw more tantrums really.

dame

Well, whatever they're doing in their educational system seems to be working. I've seen many French engineering students who came to Ireland for 3rd/4th year. They were all hard workers, got everything in on time and got better results than most of the Irish students in their class. They were also nice, friendly, mannerly guys.

nesf

Thaedydal wrote:

Manners do start in the home as so does respect if children don't' see use using please and thank you then it is hard to make them do it.

I completely agree. That and people seem to confuse shouting/giving out to children with disciplining children.

Crea

In this country if your child cries or throws and tantrum in public there is an assumption that the parent isn't doing their job properly. There is an attitiude by some members of the public that the child should be "shut up". This is, I think, why parents are so quick to give in when in public because other people are so intollerant. I would be easier for parents if they could discipline their children and ignore their tantrums without getting comments and dirty looks.

winnie29

Parenting is the most difficult thing I have ever had to do. From reading the article I am very surprised by the attitude of the French, but sometimes I would love to be able to do this with my children. They are really great kids but disciplining them is very tough. I feel they need to realise how much I love them but also that I am the boss.

parsi

Interesting article but does seem to be a tad "damn foreigners".

We holdiay in France and one thing I have noticed is that children are encouraged to participate and welcome in restaurants etc. One of my abiding memories is from our first time when we had just junior. We went into a restaurant and popped him in the high chair which was placed between two tables. Another group came in and I went to move the chair so they could get past and with many waves and smiles i was told to not bother - they took the long way around and regualrly turned around to smile and chat with junior during their meal. Here at home it would be dirty glances and get the chair moved fast.

Its probably a generalisation to say that any one country rears their children the best because we're all just human at the end. I've often felt that German chidlren are let run a bit wild.

The Irish are torn between giving their children the things that our parents couldn't afford and trying to instill a belief that the children aren't the centre of the universe and that some day they'll have to fend for themselves.

Khannie

She recalls taking her five-year-old son to the park and telling him repeatedly not to do something. An elderly woman was eavesdropping and suddenly reached over and pinched the boy's ear until he squealed. "Listen to your mother," she said sternly in French.

HAHAHA.

Im probably in the middle-ground. That article sounds a bit OTT for me, but if my child throws a tantrum in the supermarket they will:
a) not get whatever it is they're throwing the tantrum for
and
b) get properly punished in privacy (assuming they're old enough to understand what the punishment is for).

Too many spoilt arsed kids around these days. They do my head in. I blame the parents.

pickarooney

Guff and nonsense, that article. If French kids are so harshly treated, how come they grow up to be such wusses and Mummy's boys?
The author seemed to be making some point about three months maternity leave being shockingly short from the point of view of an American, but I'd fallen asleep by the time I got half-way through that absurdity.

One thing that does stand out about French mummies is the shockingly low rate of breast-feeding for children in France - barely above 50% (I think there's only one country on earth with a lower figure) - which, to me, is often a conscious way of isolating your offspring from day one.

nesf

parsi wrote:

Interesting article but does seem to be a tad "damn foreigners".

It's the Telegraph and it's about France...

Beruthiel

Say what you want about french parenting, but you don't see a gang of teenagers drinking in every other village in their country.
They have respect for their elders.
I've been to france more then 20 times, longest visit being a month (my sister has lived there for 20 years, she's married with a daughter)
I've seen enough of their lives and culture to know that compared to our own country, they would appear to be doing a better job as a whole when it comes to bringing up your kids. Yes, they are stricter than I personally was with my daughter, but they also show a lot of love towards their children and their lives revolve around the family (I'm talking about the villages and country here, not Paris)

simu

pickarooney wrote:

One thing that does stand out about French mummies is the shockingly low rate of breast-feeding for children in France - barely above 50% (I think there's only one country on earth with a lower figure) - which, to me, is often a conscious way of isolating your offspring from day one.

Ireland?

Currently Ireland has a breastfeeding rate of 41% at discharge from maternity care. This is the lowest rate in Europe and, when compared with rates of 99% in Norway; 64% in the US; 96% in Germany and 71% in the United Kingdom, it is obvious a concerted effort will be needed to achieve similar levels here.

from here:http://www.healthpromotion.ie/breastfeeding/national_breastfeeding_campaign_2005/



That article is rather odd, though. From my time in France, I'd say French parents are a bit stricter than Irish ones but they're not as harsh as the examples given in the article for the most part.

kelle

Beruthiel wrote:

Say what you want about french parenting, but you don't see a gang of teenagers drinking in every other village in their country.
They have respect for their elders.
I've been to france more then 20 times, longest visit being a month (my sister has lived there for 20 years, she's married with a daughter)
I've seen enough of their lives and culture to know that compared to our own country, they would appear to be doing a better job as a whole when it comes to bringing up your kids. Yes, they are stricter than I personally was with my daughter, but they also show a lot of love towards their children and their lives revolve around the family (I'm talking about the villages and country here, not Paris)

wrote:

A New Zealand friend, a mother of three, recently texted me: "I am in the park and just saw a French mother kick her son hard then go on talking to her friends while he cried. What is wrong with these people?"

Beruthiel, I was actually interested in your opinion on this article because I know what your views on smacking are, and from some points in this article it appears smacking is acceptable in France.

nesf

kelle wrote:

and from some points in this article it appears smacking is acceptable in France.

Just like Ireland.

Sangre

Beruthiel wrote:

I've seen enough of their lives and culture to know that compared to our own country, they would appear to be doing a better job as a whole when it comes to bringing up your kids.

This is the country with the riot problems?

pickarooney

I just saw a French mother kick her son hard then go on talking to her friends while he cried. What is wrong with these people?"

Good, sound, empirical research data there.

I'm probably a bit out of touch as I haven't lived there in a while, but are Irish kids generally (as in, not 'this one time I saw this young f'lla'...) badly-behaved and pampered nowadays or is it all just a big load of generalising for no good reason?

nesf

Sangre wrote:

This is the country with the riot problems?

The riots are down to dumping poor immigrants together into ghettos in Paris and creating urban wastelands. It's not white French kids that are doing the rioting.

Beruthiel

Sangre wrote:

This is the country with the riot problems?

Most of which go on in Paris, I even stated in my comment that I was talking about the villages and countryside and not Paris.
The issue of immigrants and their children is a whole other subject.

mountainyman

Beruthiel wrote:

Say what you want about french parenting, but you don't see a gang of teenagers drinking in every other village in their country.

In fairness I was just on holiday in Kusadasi and the level of binge drinking by middle aged and elderly Irish people was disgusting. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

I cannot imagine that it is acceptable to kick 5 year old children.

Further the reason this woman knows so many spoiled children may be that she's rich, she knows rich people and rich people spoil their children.

WRT The dinner party why didn't she tell the univited child to shut up?

Also the Irish hit toddlers; never seen that anywhere else.

MM

luckat

I don't think my gentle French sister-in-law ever slapped her children, much less kicked them! In fact, I never heard her say anything stronger than a slightly impatient "Ca suffit!" to them.

The article is illogical. And you can hear the axe grinding loudly in the background: the writer wants to think that violence towards children terrifies them into good behaviour.

By the way, I wonder if anyone has read a book called Talking to Kids So They'll Listen, Listening So Kids will Talk, or something like that? I'm going to reserve it in the library (not that I have any kids to talk to right now, but apparently it's very useful as a general guide to conversational style.

Limestone1

luckat wrote:

I don't think my gentle French sister-in-law ever slapped her children, much less kicked them! In fact, I never heard her say anything stronger than a slightly impatient "Ca suffit!" to them.

The article is illogical. And you can hear the axe grinding loudly in the background: the writer wants to think that violence towards children terrifies them into good behaviour.

By the way, I wonder if anyone has read a book called Talking to Kids So They'll Listen, Listening So Kids will Talk, or something like that? I'm going to reserve it in the library (not that I have any kids to talk to right now, but apparently it's very useful as a general guide to conversational style.

Talk and Listen - yes a beautiful idea and that is how all parents start out. Unfortunately, kids don't fall into line with this idyllic scenario and they will push boundaries - be disobedient/irritating/unruly etc.

I do not find the article outlandish - I have French friends who shocked us with their treatment of their first born at 3 months e.g. bottle feeding was akin to force feeding at certain times and bedtime entailed locking the child in a dark room at a certain hour ....the inevitable wailing was duly ignored by them .....

Khannie

Limestone1 wrote:

the inevitable wailing was duly ignored by them .....

I dunno that this is such a bad thing (I admit that we don't do it). A friend of mine told me that relations of hers are deaf (mother and father). They had several children and slept soundly every night because they couldn't hear the children. Their children have since grown up healthy and happy.

shrapnel222

i am french and i have to say i recognise a lot of what was said happening in the luxembourg because that is where you find frustrated middle class women who are just stupid bitches and i know exactly what kind of mothers they are. However the article made me laugh, as it is pure telegraph rubbish. Isn't seen and not heard typical of everything the telegraph represents as far as their reading audience goes and the way they bring their children up? My parents were always very lenient and let us get on with our lives as long as boundaries were not crossed, and yes we received the odd smack on the bum etc, which is there to scare you rather to hurt you. French enjoy values and we were brought up to know our manners and be respectful of our elders. We also were instilled family values and meal times were always around the table with the whole family, and to this day, there is still nothing better than sitting around the table with family and friends for a 5 hour lunch on a lovely summer's day.
As far as education systems go, the french one has many flaws on many levels but is still considered the best education system in the world as far as primary and secondary school goes. It's hard but it certainly teaches you a lot.

nesf

Khannie wrote:

I dunno that this is such a bad thing (I admit that we don't do it). A friend of mine told me that relations of hers are deaf (mother and father). They had several children and slept soundly every night because they couldn't hear the children. Their children have since grown up healthy and happy.

It's arguable that (at night) they could be screaming just to block out everything because they are tired rather than because of pain or whatever. Assuming the child is past the stage of needing night feeds etc.