Is the French method of Parenting cruel?

pickarooney

shrapnel222 wrote:

As far as education systems go, the french one has many flaws on many levels but is still considered the best education system in the world as far as primary and secondary school goes.

Only by the French. The Nordic countries and East Asians are far ahead, with France very much in the middle, more or less level with Ireland.

luckat

What's the basis on which education systems are judged against each other, pickarooney?

When I look at Leaving Cert Irish papers today, for instance, they seem far less difficult that 30 years ago - but we're told that the Leaving standard hasn't changed.

My only knowledge of the French system is being shown a kindergarten at some stage, where the kids looked happy and were doing nice Montessori-ish things at a much older age than Irish kids would - and hearing of my nephew's French Language essay in his Bac, which was set on something like 'Sophocles' philosophy on ontology' or something - far more complex a subject for a 17-year-old, anyway, than the Leaving Cert equivalent. (He did well, apparently.)

shrapnel222

pickarooney wrote:

Only by the French. The Nordic countries and East Asians are far ahead, with France very much in the middle, more or less level with Ireland.

isn't the leaving cert an SAT style exam with questions and 4 answers where you tick a box? in France, every exam for every discipline is a 4 hour dissertation on an assigned subject, and everyone does every single discipline. It is just well recognised and well documented that France's education system is incredibly difficult and creates a well rounded education. From the age of 5 you go to school from 9am to 530pm every day, and in some schools even saturday morning.

simu

shrapnel222 wrote:

isn't the leaving cert an SAT style exam with questions and 4 answers where you tick a box?

No. Give this country some credit! There's a lot of essay writing, you have to study about 7 different subjects including maths, English, Irish and another language, usually.

nesf

shrapnel222 wrote:

isn't the leaving cert an SAT style exam with questions and 4 answers where you tick a box? in France, every exam for every discipline is a 4 hour dissertation on an assigned subject, and everyone does every single discipline. It is just well recognised and well documented that France's education system is incredibly difficult and creates a well rounded education. From the age of 5 you go to school from 9am to 530pm every day, and in some schools even saturday morning.

Ireland doesn't really have anything to compare to the Écoles but the secondary school systems are fairly comparable.

pickarooney

shrapnel222 wrote:

isn't the leaving cert an SAT style exam with questions and 4 answers where you tick a box?

If you're going to proclaim the French education system as the world's best, it might be useful to learn even the most basic thing about one other, for example the country you live in.

shrapnel222 wrote:

in France, every exam for every discipline is a 4 hour dissertation on an assigned subject, and everyone does every single discipline.

Everybody does not do every single discipline in the bac - you choose which type of bac to do and what subjects. Do you think all students doing a bac-S sit exams in all 20+ language subjects?

It is just well recognised and well documented that France's education system is incredibly difficult and creates a well rounded education. From the age of 5 you go to school from 9am to 530pm every day, and in some schools even saturday morning.

..and in those same cases you have Wenesday free and two-hour lunch breaks. Long hours do not necessarily equate to a good education. History, geography and foreign language skills, for example, among French secondary graduates are atrocious, whereas in other subjects French students are far more competent.

Again, this is not to say that Irish students are better educated (they're about equal), but comparing like with like, France is way down the list.

kelle

nesf wrote:

Just like Ireland.

But is smacking actually acceptable in Ireland? Anytime I've seen a child being slapped, I always see looks of horror from onlookers.

greenkittie

shrapnel222 wrote:

From the age of 5 you go to school from 9am to 530pm every day, and in some schools even saturday morning.

I'm sure this really adds to children's education :rolleyes: making sure their entire day is structured. Learning through unstructured play is in my opinion extremely important. By the time the 5 year old has got home and had dinner it would be bed time, not much of a childhood.

Jesus Wept

This would explain why the people of Paris are the biggest bunch of arseholes I've ever encountered.

shrapnel222

pickarooney wrote:

If you're going to proclaim the French education system as the world's best, it might be useful to learn even the most basic thing about one other, for example the country you live in.

it is my understanding that when one puts a question mark at the end of a sentence, it's usually because he is asking a question rather than making a statment.



Everybody does not do every single discipline in the bac - you choose which type of bac to do and what subjects. Do you think all students doing a bac-S sit exams in all 20+ language subjects?

what a ridiculous answer. no one does the 20+ languages. the subject is foreign language and even in bac S you do those. My point was that regardless of which bac you do, you still do all the subjects. French, foreign language, maths, history, philosophy, geography, art, sports, etc...


..and in those same cases you have Wenesday free and two-hour lunch breaks. Long hours do not necessarily equate to a good education. History, geography and foreign language skills, for example, among French secondary graduates are atrocious, whereas in other subjects French students are far more competent.

hence why they have now introduced foreign languages in the primary schools. history and geography? i'm surprised to hear we're atrocious.

Again, this is not to say that Irish students are better educated (they're about equal), but comparing like with like, France is way down the list.

my original post was about parenting, not about education. let's keep it at that considering my education has been deemed poor

pickarooney

Ah, the famous French retreating tactic

shrapnel222

sorry pickarooney, i just realised i inserted my answers within your quote so that it looks like i gave a one line answer but in fact i answered every line of yours but it's all in the blue area. make sense?:)

Heinrich

..and in those same cases you have Wenesday free and two-hour lunch breaks. Long hours do not necessarily equate to a good education. History, geography and foreign language skills, for example, among French secondary graduates are atrocious, whereas in other subjects French students are far more competent.

Wednesday in winter in the Haute Savoie is for skiing! The foreign language skills of the french Savoyards, at any rate, is superior to the Irish with their language skills. Most of the colleagues with whom I worked (tradesmen) in that area could carry on a decent conversation in English! The pathetic efforts "as Gaeilge" that I encounter are a sad indictment on our language teaching/learning skills.

However, back to the OP. I lived beside the Haute Savoie for 23 years and seldom encountered that sort of parenting. Those rags which pass for newspapers are not even good enough for the fireplace. One might look at child neglect here in our beloved Ireland and when we are satisfied that there are not only laws but actions to protect our children from brutal parents we can have a go at the French.

pickarooney

it is my understanding that when one puts a question mark at the end of a sentence, it's usually because he is asking a question rather than making a statment.

Sure. Just like "Isn't your mother a whore?" is just a question :P

what a ridiculous answer. no one does the 20+ languages. the subject is foreign language and even in bac S you do those. My point was that regardless of which bac you do, you still do all the subjects. French, foreign language, maths, history, philosophy, geography, art, sports, etc...

Your point is that in France, like everywhere else, you do about seven or eight subjects?

hence why they have now introduced foreign languages in the primary schools.

A great idea, but the teachers are invariably people who don't speak the language. Rather like Irish class back home.

history and geography? i'm surprised to hear we're atrocious.

Yep, right up there with the Americans in terms of knowledge of his-geo (one subject in France, like phys-chem) outside l'héxagone, from experience. I've yet to meet someone who knows what exactly what/where the United Kingdom is.

Anyway, enough of that. Back on topic - are the Frenchies kid-beating bastards? Hardly.

Hagar

I live in France and do you know what.. French kids have manners and so do their parents.
Ireland has a lot to learn.

Get the hump if you like but their system works.

Eyeofthetiger

shrapnel222 wrote:

isn't the leaving cert an SAT style exam with questions and 4 answers where you tick a box? in France, every exam for every discipline is a 4 hour dissertation on an assigned subject, and everyone does every single discipline. It is just well recognised and well documented that France's education system is incredibly difficult and creates a well rounded education. From the age of 5 you go to school from 9am to 530pm every day, and in some schools even saturday morning.

I spent 18 months in a Grande Ecole in Normandy. It was an engineering school so obviously I had contact with guys in the main but I have to say I was shocked at the lack of well roundedness (sorry if that's not a real word) education wise. In terms of history and geography all they knew about was France. Same for other subjects...limited knowledge if any.

I have to say I love the Irish system...yes we have the leaving cert and it is stressful and it would be a bit better if it was structured differently but I loved the way I could pick 4 other subjects apart from Irish, English and Maths and they could be completely different subjects.

Parenting wise...the school was fee paying with a number of apprenticeships and you could really see the difference between the people who had gone there because their parents had paid for it and the ones who were working as well. I think spoilt rotten must have been invented for some of the former.

/me hides now

babichou

Being a (happy) french daddy, this article sounds to me like...like it doesn't bring anything new. Saying the french are strict is as stupid and pointless as saying the spanish are hairy or the irish are eating spuds. Whenever i take me kiddies to the parc i encounter different sorts of behaviour from the parents, from those who let the beast loose and wait 'til he's hurt someone or smashed his skull open on the ground to Hitler wannabes that would remain behind the child every bloody second.

I know a few friends of mine who i dub laxist which probably means i am one of these strict, mean, french daddies . For them, the kid is indeed the center of the world, would the little rascal rampage my house, they'd be in admiration.
Hey, we have manners here haha ! But not all of us of course...

I laughed a lot reading about that posh mother strolling ahead with the pram, leaving the desperate kid behind. These are the kind of cliché people love, Paris, France, chic mothers. Hey dude, France is not Paris. There are other things to France than just bloody Paris !

These were my 2 cents, as a frenchman AND caring daddy.
A southerner (whose sense of education might be closer to spanish or italian people).

nesf

kelle wrote:

But is smacking actually acceptable in Ireland? Anytime I've seen a child being slapped, I always see looks of horror from onlookers.

I disagree, light taps don't seem to draw any attention. To get looks of horror you'd have to put the boot in or similar. There is a segment of the community who are, for whatever reason, against slapping and some of them are quite vocal. It's similar on the pro-slapping side. The reality is that most people don't really fall into either category and don't seem to hold a strong opinion either way, or at least not in respect to other people's children.

shrapnel222

Eyeofthetiger wrote:

I spent 18 months in a Grande Ecole in Normandy. It was an engineering school so obviously I had contact with guys in the main but I have to say I was shocked at the lack of well roundedness (sorry if that's not a real word) education wise. In terms of history and geography all they knew about was France. Same for other subjects...limited knowledge if any.

I have to say I love the Irish system...yes we have the leaving cert and it is stressful and it would be a bit better if it was structured differently but I loved the way I could pick 4 other subjects apart from Irish, English and Maths and they could be completely different subjects.

Parenting wise...the school was fee paying with a number of apprenticeships and you could really see the difference between the people who had gone there because their parents had paid for it and the ones who were working as well. I think spoilt rotten must have been invented for some of the former.

/me hides now

it seems to me that there is a consensus agreeing that french are crap at history and geography, i'll agree to that but so far as public and private go, i don't agree at all. I'm a parisian, so i'll speak about what i know. The best schools are all state run schools. people are queueing up to get into those schools, but if you live in that arrondissement you are automatically accepted. If you live elsewhere, if your grades are good enough they will take a number of new students every year. Private schools in France are good but take on students who have been kicked out of the said lycees, because of they're disciplinary records and whose parents are well off and willing to pay. State education is the best education in France but with zero tolerance. This as stated is true in cities, country education is very different

babichou

What the hell has Geography got to do with slapping kids and/or parenting ?

Eyeofthetiger

shrapnel222 wrote:

it seems to me that there is a consensus agreeing that french are crap at history and geography, i'll agree to that but so far as public and private go, i don't agree at all. I'm a parisian, so i'll speak about what i know. The best schools are all state run schools. people are queueing up to get into those schools, but if you live in that arrondissement you are automatically accepted. If you live elsewhere, if your grades are good enough they will take a number of new students every year. Private schools in France are good but take on students who have been kicked out of the said lycees, because of they're disciplinary records and whose parents are well off and willing to pay. State education is the best education in France but with zero tolerance. This as stated is true in cities, country education is very different

This was 3rd level I experienced not 2nd level so I wasn't commenting on that.
I don't mean to offend it's just my experience

Babichou:
I quoted the post of Shrapnel222 regarding education for a reason

pickarooney

babichou wrote:

What the hell has Geography got to do with slapping kids and/or parenting ?

My old Geography teacher used to always threaten us with

"If you don't whisht I'll bate yis into Sierra Leone" or "do ye want to wake up in Ouagadougou"

luckat

Well-rounded? Heck, I've taught students with degrees and even masters in Ireland, and many of them don't know the difference between it's and its!

Those who live in, have lived in or are from France, what would be the most popular child-rearing books over there?

I had a quick look on the bestsellers list on amazon.fr, but didn't notice any in the first 50, though slimming (maigrir!) seemed popular:

http://www.amazon.fr/gp/bestsellers/books/402-2387653-6093755

nesf

luckat wrote:

Well-rounded? Heck, I've taught students with degrees and even masters in Ireland, and many of them don't know the difference between it's and its!

You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink and all that.

babichou

luckat wrote:

Well-rounded? Heck, I've taught students with degrees and even masters in Ireland, and many of them don't know the difference between it's and its!

Those who live in, have lived in or are from France, what would be the most popular child-rearing books over there?

I had a quick look on the bestsellers list on amazon.fr, but didn't notice any in the first 50, though slimming (maigrir!) seemed popular:

http://www.amazon.fr/gp/bestsellers/books/402-2387653-6093755

Well, Karl Marx's "Les Luttes de classes en France" is not yet a bestseller among our youths but i'm sure it'll quickly become a hit !
Much to my dismay, Harry Potter is amazingly popular here among children aged 8-13...

Check this out :

http://www.amazon.fr/gp/bestsellers/books/301137/ref=pd_ts_b_nav/403-1139333-6694807?pf_rd_m=A1X6FK5RDHNB96&pf_rd_s=left-1&pf_rd_r=1044E8QXF6Y5K4ETC6ZN&pf_rd_t=2101&pf_rd_p=108886791&pf_rd_i=235564011

Well Le petit prince is an all-time classic...
Harry is number one but the little prince can never be killed !

babichou

nesf wrote:

You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink and all that.

I'm working (thus swapping e-mails) with people (engineers) from England. Many of them use "their" instead of "they're" or "there" (and vice versa)...
I am a poor frenchman who only did learn english in high school and yet i know the difference.

mental07

I'm not a parent but I've au-paired in France. Child gets dropped to school at 8.30am, finishes at 4.30pm, parents arrive home at 7pm, child goes to bed at 8.30pm. Child has Wednesdays off but spends day with au-pair.

Seems like it's school-teachers that bring up French kids....

shrapnel222

babichou wrote:

Well, Karl Marx's "Les Luttes de classes en France" is not yet a bestseller among our youths but i'm sure it'll quickly become a hit !
Much to my dismay, Harry Potter is amazingly popular here among children aged 8-13...

Check this out :

http://www.amazon.fr/gp/bestsellers/books/301137/ref=pd_ts_b_nav/403-1139333-6694807?pf_rd_m=A1X6FK5RDHNB96&pf_rd_s=left-1&pf_rd_r=1044E8QXF6Y5K4ETC6ZN&pf_rd_t=2101&pf_rd_p=108886791&pf_rd_i=235564011

Well Le petit prince is an all-time classic...
Harry is number one but the little prince can never be killed !

why to your dismay? the thought of children between the ages of 8 and 13 tackling a 700 page book is a great success in my mind- and means that in the future they will never be afraid of opening a book as they are aware of the magic of the written word. I personally think Harry Potter is a great success and deservedly so. I think the story is getting a bit boring and certainly the last 2 have not been as good as the others but we've reached the end of the line with this one and i hope it ends with a bang!!!

shrapnel222

mental07 wrote:

I'm not a parent but I've au-paired in France. Child gets dropped to school at 8.30am, finishes at 4.30pm, parents arrive home at 7pm, child goes to bed at 8.30pm. Child has Wednesdays off but spends day with au-pair.

Seems like it's school-teachers that bring up French kids....

Sign of the modern era, and certainly not specific to France. 2 parents working and children in school. it's the same all over the world. at least in France with the 35 hour week, it means they get from 6 weeks to 10 weeks off a year on holiday to spend with their kids.

shrapnel222

Eyeofthetiger wrote:

This was 3rd level I experienced not 2nd level so I wasn't commenting on that.
I don't mean to offend it's just my experience

Babichou:
I quoted the post of Shrapnel222 regarding education for a reason

no offense taken. Third level education is incredibly ellitist. The best of the best go to the best state run grandes ecoles- the no so best can go to 2nd tier very good ecoles, many of which are private. Most private universities are business schools though where the dollar buys you a diploma. Universities in France are also very good and free, but the degrees you get there don't have much value in France, however are very well respected and sought after as soon as you leave france and go abroad.