Shopping Center - The size of Liffey Valley and 260 Houses!

Marcais

When did this go from 1/3 the size of Dundrum to being the size of Liffey Valley? and when did 210 homes (168 plus social housing of 42 per local representatives) become 260?

We are still waiting for Zapi to fulfill it's obligations in Charlesland under their approved planning application e.g. a furnished community centre.

Combine this with the marina plans, apartments and houses at the west end of Charlesland and we are looking at living in a massive building site for a long time.

http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=IRELAND-qqqm=news-qqqid=24633-qqqx=1.asp

Dunne, Mulryan team up in €1.5bn deal
24 June 2007 By Neil Callanan

Multi-millionaire property developers Sean Mulryan and Sean Dunne are planning to build a shopping centre in Greystones, Co Wicklow, roughly the same size as the Liffey Valley Shopping Centre in west Dublin.

The centre, which is planned for a site of almost 80 acres at Charlesland, is part of a major new development that industry sources said could be worth up to €1.5 billion on completion. The plan also includes homes and offices.

If approved by Wicklow County Council, the shopping centre would be built on two levels with three restaurants, a food court and a creche, and would cover 41,000 square metres.

Mulryan and Dunne are planning their centre through a company called Zapi Properties, which has already built homes in Charlesland.

The developers are also planning nine retail warehouse units, measuring 20,000 square metres. This will be 50 per cent larger than the Royal Liver retail park on the Naas Road in Dublin.

They are planning more than 32,000 square metres of offices, built in nine blocks of three to four storeys.

The men want to build more than 3,700 square metres of car parking spaces to cater for shoppers and workers in the offices. Their plans also include five motor showrooms, a petrol station, 260 homes, nine business units and a Garda station.

The whole development will be built on just under 80 acres, five of which will be earmarked for a school.

Mulryan and Dunne are selling a smaller shopping centre they developed in Charlesland, where the anchor tenant is Superquinn. They are seeking €30 million for the centre.

The two property developers built the Whitewater shopping centre in Newbridge in Kildare. Dunne later sold his 50 per cent stake to Warren Private Clients for €197 million.

Mulryan owns Ballymore Properties, which has projects worth €22 billion at a planning stage or under construction, making it one of the biggest property companies in Europe.

It has interests in eastern Europe and has invested in the United States, India and China.

In April, An Bord Pleanala refused planning permission for a €2 billion residential and retail complex in Bray, not far from Greystones.

Pizarro Developments, a consortium that included Paddy Kelly, Durkan New Homes and Pierse Construction, wanted to build a 50,000 square foot shopping centre, with an eight-screen cinema, hotel, apartments and offices, in a scheme that had been promoted as a rival to the Dundrum Shopping Centre

Hammiepeters

God knows the Charlesland shopping centre has been such a success.

Tomato

Thats not good news. How long until its built?

Sat in traffic to get into Dundrum today and slowly lost the will to live. If I had to go thru that just to get to my own front door I would go insane.

eleMental

article in the irish indo yesterday mentioned something like a 10 year plan? there was also mention of a footbridge into greystones!! :rolleyes:

loyatemu

bah - the wicklow planning site is down.

afaik - some of this stuff already has planning permission - eg the petrol station, the motor showrooms. The rest is all subject to planning permission, though the land has been rezoned (courtesy of Mssrs Jones and Mitchell's burning desire to be able to buy washing machines in Greystones)

Whatever does get built, something will be built - the purpose of building the Southern Access Road was to open up land for development.

In April, An Bord Pleanala refused planning permission for a €2 billion residential and retail complex in Bray, not far from Greystones.

afaik this was rejected on engineering grounds relating to flood defences, they'll probably get it through the second time around.

future_plans

They do not have planning permission yet. The land was rezoned, but is all.

I am sure that they will argue that the shopping centre has to be of that magnitude in order to attract shoppers and make it a success.

Marcais

future_plans wrote:

They do not have planning permission yet. The land was rezoned, but is all.

I am sure that they will argue that the shopping centre has to be of that magnitude in order to attract shoppers and make it a success.

I'd say that people understand that it does not have planning permission yet, but why were we told by local representatives that the application was to be for 210 houses definitely and for a shopping center 1/3 the size of Dundrum definitely? There is no attempt at proper public consultation in any development, probably a complete waste of time to seek this.

One of the points made at the time was that once the rezoning goes through, the developers could and probably would increase the housing density etc. as there was nothing binding thenm to anything other than the "type" of development be in line with the rezoning.

jdivision

It depends on whether you look at gross or net retail space. The net retail space is just over 20,000 square metres which is about one-third of the retail space in Dundrum's first phase.

Mitch Connor

jdivision wrote:

It depends on whether you look at gross or net retail space. The net retail space is just over 20,000 square metres which is about one-third of the retail space in Dundrum's first phase.

first phase is an important point too - Dundrum isn't even finished yet - there is still a lot more to go in, so something the size of Liffey Valley is still going to be small in comparrison to a completed Dundrum. Whether that is 1/3 i don't know - but that could also be what they are refering to.

Marcais

jdivision wrote:

It depends on whether you look at gross or net retail space. The net retail space is just over 20,000 square metres which is about one-third of the retail space in Dundrum's first phase.

We were told that it would be 1/3 the size of Dundrum, net, gross, whatever, it is gross misrepresentation! and could cover 41,000 square metres.

lakeroad

I think its great, just what Greystones and surrounding areas need. Once again negativity stirred up by a few!!!

Marcais

I'm sure you do think it is great when you are not living right next door to it. As to negativity, this is an open forum in which anybody is entitled to express opinions, negative, positive or otherwise. You may as well express them here because our local representatives pay no heed to them.

As for "a few", you are the only ONE so far who has said this massive development is a good thing and you don't live close to it from what I can tell. So are you representing the "silent majority" ?!

The planning application signs are now up. You probably haven't been advised of this in any rushed newsletters from local representatives or Zapi, unlike the time and money spent on the misrepresentations in promoting the rezoning.

Greystones may indeed need a quality shopping centre but people in Charlesland also have the right to a decent quality of life.

lakeroad wrote:

I think its great, just what Greystones and surrounding areas need. Once again negativity stirred up by a few!!!

future_plans

I have to say I am unsure whether I am for or against this yet. This would be by far the biggest development in Greystones since Charlesland and I would urge all residents to view the plans...

@Marcais - are they on show yet? I do not see the pp on the Wicklow Coco website.

I suppose on the positive side, the shopping centre would bring more jobs to the area and I think, once it is not an ugly monstrosity, it would also add value to the Charlesland area.

lakeroad

Marcais - Once again you have something to complain about. If you don't like whats going on in Greystones please move!!

Marcais

future_plans wrote:

I have to say I am unsure whether I am for or against this yet. This would be by far the biggest development in Greystones since Charlesland and I would urge all residents to view the plans...

@Marcais - are they on show yet? I do not see the pp on the Wicklow Coco website.

I suppose on the positive side, the shopping centre would bring more jobs to the area and I think, once it is not an ugly monstrosity, it would also add value to the Charlesland area.

Maybe add value, maybe not, depends on traffic generation, noise disruption etc. and whether people would want to live close to this. I wouldn't like to live close to Liffey Valley for example.

I am mostly disappointed at the scale in comparison to what we were told and of course the inadequacy of provision of services for Charlesland which should have been addressed before 260 more houses and 91 apartments etc. were given the go ahead. We would of course prefer if it were set back with green area in front....who knows maybe it is but I don't expect so.

I'll have a look at the sign tonight and see if there is any clue as to where the plans can be accessed. Unless anyone else has information?

Eoin

lakeroad wrote:

Marcais - Once again you have something to complain about. If you don't like whats going on in Greystones please move!!

That's not helpful at all, constructive comments please.

Wineman

I think a lot of people would give their right arm to live next to Dundrum centre even though traffic is a problem, our road infrastructure seems a lot better than Dundrums also. All I can say is if it has a multiplex cinema and a pub bring it on !!

Eoin

Wineman wrote:

I think a lot of people would give their right arm to live next to Dundrum centre even though traffic is a problem, our road infrastructure seems a lot better than Dundrums also. All I can say is if it has a multiplex cinema and a pub bring it on !!

I dunno - Dundrum seems to have a lot more roads going into it than Charlesland does.

And what's wrong with the Father Ted cinema in the village?!

heyjude

Wineman wrote:

I think a lot of people would give their right arm to live next to Dundrum centre even though traffic is a problem, our road infrastructure seems a lot better than Dundrums also. All I can say is if it has a multiplex cinema and a pub bring it on !!

But getting planning permission for a shopping centre/development that includes a multi-screen cinema isn't the same as actually getting a multi-screen cinema, there is no requirement for the developer to actually open the cinema, they just have permission to build/include one in their development.

The Whitewater Shopping Centre in Newbridge included in its application for planning permission, plans for a multi screen cinema within the shopping centre, which was a major reason why planning permission was granted initially. But after gaining planning permission, they reneged on opening a cinema within the centre and have sought permission several times to change the cinema space to retail use.

The Whitewater has now been open for 14 months, during which Newbridge has been left without a cinema, as the existing cinema in the town closed in anticipation of the new cinema opening.

Planners should try to ringfence all parts of these developments together and if possible make it obligatory for all parts of the submitted plans to be completed before it can be opened. Otherwise developers may develop the most profitable parts and forget about the community amenity sections of the plans.

For what its worth, the current Whitewater owners claim that still want to build a cinema in Newbridge, but on a separate site in the town. But whether it gets permission or not, it will be a long time before Newbridge has a cinema again.

So residents of Greystones and elsewhere beware, what is promised may not necessarily be what is delivered.

sportbilly

At least it will break the petrol station monopoly!

Wineman

heyjude wrote:

The Whitewater Shopping Centre in Newbridge included in its application for planning permission, plans for a multi screen cinema within the shopping centre, which was a major reason why planning permission was granted initially. But after gaining planning permission, they reneged on opening a cinema within the centre and have sought permission several times to change the cinema space to retail use.

The Whitewater has now been open for 14 months, during which Newbridge has been left without a cinema, as the existing cinema in the town closed in anticipation of the new cinema opening.

Thats not good news because as far as I am aware the developer of this shopping centre is the same guy who built Whitewater. Anyway, I didnt read anywhere that a cinema was proposed for this development, Its just a presumption.. and wishful thinking.:rolleyes:

Tomato

Marcais wrote:

Maybe add value, maybe not, depends on traffic generation, noise disruption etc. and whether people would want to live close to this. I wouldn't like to live close to Liffey Valley for example.

I am mostly disappointed at the scale in comparison to what we were told and of course the inadequacy of provision of services for Charlesland which should have been addressed before 260 more houses and 91 apartments etc. were given the go ahead. We would of course prefer if it were set back with green area in front....who knows maybe it is but I don't expect so.

I'll have a look at the sign tonight and see if there is any clue as to where the plans can be accessed. Unless anyone else has information?

Agreed Marcais.

I think people have moved to Greystones because it represents a slower pace of life, nice village, fair enough underdeveloped for the number of people now living in the area, but a huge shopping complex etc etc is the other extreme. Greystones is a much more peaceful place to live in comparison to Blanchardstown or Lucan ( I have lived in both) and I think people choose to live here somewhat due to the appeal of the place and that fact that it is not a developed commercial zone or a concrete jungle. I suppose developers are going to take advantage where they can and it is inevitable that they will get their hands on a prime area such as where we live, it is a pity though and will change the profile of Greystones - personally I dont think for the better but I can see why many can see the potential in what is going to happen.

Marcais

Tomato wrote:

Agreed Marcais.

I think people have moved to Greystones because it represents a slower pace of life, nice village, fair enough underdeveloped for the number of people now living in the area, but a huge shopping complex etc etc is the other extreme. Greystones is a much more peaceful place to live in comparison to Blanchardstown or Lucan ( I have lived in both) and I think people choose to live here somewhat due to the appeal of the place and that fact that it is not a developed commercial zone or a concrete jungle. I suppose developers are going to take advantage where they can and it is inevitable that they will get their hands on a prime area such as where we live, it is a pity though and will change the profile of Greystones - personally I dont think for the better but I can see why many can see the potential in what is going to happen.

The closing date for submissions is July 26. The reference no is 07/1352.

Probably a case of submit as outrageous a plan as possible and we should end up ahead of what we want or close to it.

future_plans

Here is the planning permission application. There's a lot to it but worth a read!

10 year permission for development on 31.7 ha of land.

1. a district shopping centre with 19,953 sqm net retail floor space (40,889 sqm gross floor area retail and related floorspace) on two floors with basement plant rooms and signage including: 28,438 sqm gross of retail, 3 no restaurants 210 sqm 189 sqm and 95 sqm, a food court - 433 sqm 2 no class 2 offices units - 188 sqm and 137 sqm, a medical clinic - 526 sqm, management suite - 419 sqm, creche - 309 sqm, mall, circulation and toilet space (totalling 9955 sqm).

2 a single storey retail warehouse development containing 9 units totalling 15,988 sqm net retail floorspace (19985 sqm gross floor area) with an adjoining single storey cafe of 242 sqm.

3. 2010 basement and 415 surface car parking spaces to serve the retail proposals.

4. 32218 sqm of offices in 9 blocks (ranging in height from 3 - 4 storeys) and over 2 of the motor showrooms (both 4 storeys over 2 storey motor showroom buildings). Total of 1210 car parking spaces for the offices, 10 at ground level, 600 provided in 2 semi basement areas, 600 spaces in multi storey car park over 6 levels in a building of 15500 sqm.

5. 8100 sqm enterprise units in 9 units, accommodated in 2 x 3 storey blocks (5300 sqm and 2800 sqm). There are 138 surface car parking spaces provided for the enterprise units.

6. 3 no 2 storey motor showrooms of 1470 sqm, 1595 sqm and 1786 sqm, 130 surface and basement car parking spaces.

7. 2 single storey light industrial units of 1040 sqm with 3 floors of ancillary offices of 2466 sqm with 100 surface car parking spaces.

8. Single storey petrol station of 603 sqm.

9. 260 residential units comprising 138 3 storey 5 bed houses, 30 3 storey 4 bed houses, 18 2 storey 3 bed duplex units over 18 ground floor 2 bed apartments in 3 3 storey blocks, 36 3 bed apartments and 20 2 bed apartments in 2 5 storey blocks. There are 2 off street car parking spaces provided for each dwelling, 153 communal spaces for the duplex and apartment accommodation.

10. A single storey creche of 475 sqm with 12 no drop off and car parking spaces.

11. pedestrian footbridge of 475 sqm with 12 drop off and car parking spaces.

12. 2.02 ha site for primary school.

13. 4046 sqm site for garda station.

14. 3,000 sqm site for recycling centre.

15. Demolition of 3 semi derelict former dwellings (555 sqm) and 2 agricultural buildings (1165 sqm).

16. 2 new vehicular left in / left out access points off the dual carriageway.

17. 3 single storey ESB substations of 5.06 sqm each, 18 no single storey ESB substations and adjoining switch rooms of 22.75 sqm each, 2 single storey ESB substations and adjoining switch rooms of 48 sqm each, 4 single storey back up generators of 28 sqm each.

18. All associated site development works including foul, surface water and water supply connections

loyatemu

blimey.

anyone know how the size of the shopping centre compares with others in the Dublin area?

Marcais

Local councillors [FF] AND [FG] in promoting this rezoning told us there would be 168 houses, not estimated, guaranteed. I guess they were being truthful because there are 168 houses! 9. 260 residential units comprising 138 3 storey 5 bed houses, 30 3 storey 4 bed houses,


18 2 storey 3 bed duplex units over 18 ground floor 2 bed apartments in 3 3 storey blocks, 36 3 bed apartments and 20 2 bed apartments in 2 5 storey blocks. There are 2 off street car parking spaces provided for each dwelling, 153 communal spaces for the duplex and apartment accommodation. Hopefully these are not behind our houses.

Zapi's glossy literature said 210 houses and did not mention any apartments. Submissions on the rezoning were made on this basis, surely this cannot be ethical and in breach of planning i.e. rezoning applied for on a pretence?

Appalling.

Mitch Connor

Wineman wrote:

I think a lot of people would give their right arm to live next to Dundrum centre even though traffic is a problem, our road infrastructure seems a lot better than Dundrums also. All I can say is if it has a multiplex cinema and a pub bring it on !!

a cinema in charlesland was mooted a good while ago, and fomr memory the rent they were asking for it was massively high, even in comparison to other mutiplex cinemas.

future_plans

Tauren wrote:

a cinema in charlesland was mooted a good while ago, and fomr memory the rent they were asking for it was massively high, even in comparison to other mutiplex cinemas.

There is no cinema or pub in those plans...

Lumbarda

We went down to Wicklow Co. Council yesterday and had a look at the plans. Unfortunately, it was after 3 when we arrived down (the counter closes at 3.30) so we didn't have enough time to look in detail but what we did see has really worried us.......

We are in Charlesland Park and will back on to the proposed houses which are ALL 3 storey houses of approx 12 metres in height (being built on an existing higher elevation to Charlesland) and the gardens are TINY, some of them are only 6 metres in length i.e. the 12 metre houses will loom over our gardens set only 6 metres back from our end walls..... It will have a severe impact on light into our gardens and invasion of privacy.

Other good news is that the style of the houses is completely different to Charlesland (no brick facade on the back of the houses which is what we'll be seeing but what they refer to as "self coloured monocouche") and will not be in keeping with the character of the area.

They have also planned a pedestrian bridge to link with the shopping centre which looks like it will go exactly where the old house currently is behind us (Unfortunately this house is being demolished which is a surprise as we were told by the builders last year that it was protected). The access to the bridge is a tall glass structure on either side so everyone using it will be looking into our gardens. It also looks like the idea is to have open access between Charlesland (through the green area between Grove and Park), the new houses and the shopping centre etc. with this bridge being the main link which surely has security issues and safety implications for children in the area.

They also mention a proposed 6 storey building at each roundabout - we didn't have time to see what these are exactly but again they will overlook our houses.

As I said, we're VERY concerned with what we've seen and are working on a submission at the moment. While some of us will be more directly affected than others, everyone in Charlesland (and even Greystones with the obvious increase in traffic etc) should be concerned at the scale of the development and the negative impact it will have on the area and on the value of our houses and should have a look at the plans themselves.

And I thought I was being cynical when I mentioned in an earlier thread that they'd probably try to sneak the planning permission through over the summer months!!

Lumbarda

Should have also mentioned for those in south row of Charlesland Grove, from what we could see yesterday, there are no plans yet for the space behind most of you - the houses start just before the Green Belt between Grove and Park so the last few houses in the Grove before this green area will back onto a side elevation of a new house (right up against the Grove back walls). Could be wrong as to plans for the rest of this area as we were very rushed for time yesterday and concentrated on the proposed housing behind the Park.

Also am nearly sure that we saw a reference to the fact that planning permission for the school is still to be applied for - wasn't that meant to be the first thing to be built, in fact I thought it was to open in September???!!!! What's the betting it'll never get built as it's obviously not the high priority our local reps have led us to believe it is.

Tomato

Marcais wrote:

The closing date for submissions is July 26. The reference no is 07/1352.

Probably a case of submit as outrageous a plan as possible and we should end up ahead of what we want or close to it.

Forgive me - I'm new at this - how do you go about submitting an objection? Thx.