Atheism is "no-fun"?

Hivemind187

Why is it that Atheists are perceieved to be humourless, passionless and generally missing out on the wonder of the world?

From Richard Dawkins' website (with respect) "Life is joyful," he says, going into one of his flights of evolutionist ecstasy, "and it becomes even more joyful when you know it's finite, because you've got to make the most of it while you've got it. You don't have to regard existence as this 'vale of tears,' a preparation for a better life to come where you have to live in misery in this life because you're going to reap your reward in heaven - not a bit. This is it, so you better make the most of it."

Similar tones can be found in the Atheistic (though dogmatic) religion espoused by the Church of Satan where the celebration of the carnal and the fulfilling is encouraged as opposed to the drab and joyless act of abstinence.

So many people who have found they have no need for the vaguaries and grostesquaries of religion, are also people who take great pleasure and joy from existance, who are as often as not felled by the majesty of reality and the intricate complexity of life itself and the sheer scope of the universe and the knowledge it contains.

What I don't get is why so many people believe that people are incapable of finding beauty and joy in life without some so-called intelligent deisgner?

Personally I find the idea of giving up all the pleasures of life to prepare for some flimsy half-metaphor of life-after-death playing cum-by-yah for enternity to be a lot less attractive than sex, drugs and rock&roll.

JC 2K3

Different strokes.....


What definately is no fun is analysing others' choices in life and constantly questioning others' religion.

EDIT: 3000 POSTS BABY!!!

Hivemind187

JC 2K3 wrote:

Different strokes.....


What definately is no fun is analysing others' choices in life and constantly questioning others' religion.

EDIT: 3000 POSTS BABY!!!

Really?

I personally find it fascinating that people can believe things that are clearly nonsense. That it causes many people no cognitive dissonence at all to look at the world in which friction, gravity, electricty etc exist and are used on a daily basis and can still say "I believe in the inane ramblings of a two millenia old book of proverbs and social commentary rather than the physical evidence".

But I suppose if you just HAD to get your 3000th post then you are likely to say anything.

JC 2K3

Hivemind187 wrote:

I personally find it fascinating that people can believe things that are clearly nonsense. That it causes many people no cognitive dissonence at all to look at the world in which friction, gravity, electricty etc exist and are used on a daily basis and can still say "I believe in the inane ramblings of a two millenia old book of proverbs and social commentary rather than the physical evidence".

I did. Then it started to get tiresome.

In any case, since these are your sentiments, a world without religion would leave you devoid of this fascination

Hivemind187

JC 2K3 wrote:

I did. Then it started to get tiresome.

In any case, since these are your sentiments, a world without religion would leave you devoid of this fascination

Either way, it doesnt answer the question. Why is it implicit that we must have religion and gods in order to enjoy the universe?

And

Why is it a good thing to abstain from everything good in life to prepare for some intangible "after life" that has no evidence in support of it? It seems a little odd.

Tim Robbins

Hivemind187 wrote:

Either way, it doesnt answer the question. Why is it implicit that we must have religion and gods in order to enjoy the universe?

And

Why is it a good thing to abstain from everything good in life to prepare for some intangible "after life" that has no evidence in support of it? It seems a little odd.

Humans are irrational or else theists are right and we are wrong.

Hivemind187

Tim Robbins wrote:

Humans are irrational or else theists are right and we are wrong.

Humans are irrational? LOL ... Amen to that.

Zombrex

Hivemind187 wrote:

Why is it implicit that we must have religion and gods in order to enjoy the universe?

Sorry I'm not following this ...

Who says that it is "implicit that we must have religion ... to enjoy the universe?"

I enjoy the universe perfectly well without religion thank you very much, so who ever said that is wrong.

JC 2K3

^Exactly.

Religious people might believe it implicit to be a member of a certain religion, but no one else does.

Tar.Aldarion

Wicknight wrote:

Sorry I'm not following this ...

Who says that it is "implicit that we must have religion ... to enjoy the universe?"

I enjoy the universe perfectly well without religion thank you very much, so who ever said that is wrong.

He is simply quoting some religious peoples opinions and asking why they believe this.

PDN

Hivemind187 wrote:

Why is it a good thing to abstain from everything good in life to prepare for some intangible "after life" that has no evidence in support of it? It seems a little odd.

I guess there may be a religion out there somewhere that insists you must abstain from everything good in life (possibly the infamous garbage eaters: http://www.apologeticsindex.org/169-roberts-group-garbage-eaters/2/

I personally find that abstaining from mind altering toxins is a good idea for this life, never mind the next. I also find that abstaining from extra-marital sex makes my own marriage much happier & more secure, which is a growing rarity in the light of Ireland's climbing divorce rate. I find that abstaining from financial dishonesty etc. helps me enjoy my financial resources without living in fear of being caught by the VAT man. In fact, if I decided tomorrow that there was no life but this then I can't think of a single practice which I would cease abstinence from.

I think Dawkins, for once, has a very good point. If this is the only shot at life you've got, and if this is the only world there is, then surely you would want to abstain from all the things that make it more miserable and unhealthy?

I'm sure there are atheists out there who are noted for their joyfulness and happiness. I just haven't met any yet.

Hivemind187

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

He is simply quoting some religious peoples opinions and asking why they believe this.

Exactly.

This is one of the things theists fall back on and point to. That they some how have a greater understanding or appreciation of the world and th beauty it manifests because of their faith. I just want to knowwhy they feel that way and how other atheists feel about it.

Dades

TBH I don't find atheism much fun.

It can make for very interesting debate, but it's not a lifestyle choice that influences how joyous or not your life is.

PDN wrote:

I'm sure there are atheists out there who are noted for their joyfulness and happiness. I just haven't met any yet.

I'd say Douglas Adams was good fun to be around. (And 'tis a shame he is around no more.)

Hivemind187

PDN wrote:

I guess there may be a religion out there somewhere that insists you must abstain from everything good in life (possibly the infamous garbage eaters: http://www.apologeticsindex.org/169-roberts-group-garbage-eaters/2/

I personally find that abstaining from mind altering toxins is a good idea for this life, never mind the next. I also find that abstaining from extra-marital sex makes my own marriage much happier & more secure, which is a growing rarity in the light of Ireland's climbing divorce rate. I find that abstaining from financial dishonesty etc. helps me enjoy my financial resources without living in fear of being caught by the VAT man. In fact, if I decided tomorrow that there was no life but this then I can't think of a single practice which I would cease abstinence from.

I think Dawkins, for once, has a very good point. If this is the only shot at life you've got, and if this is the only world there is, then surely you would want to abstain from all the things that make it more miserable and unhealthy?

I'm sure there are atheists out there who are noted for their joyfulness and happiness. I just haven't met any yet.

While I aknowledge that many of the things you mentioned abstaining from are good (in your case I suppose more than others) but what about other things like indulging homosexual desires, indulging in pre-marital sex, not sucumbing to the dictum of getting married, eating meat on a friday (other than rabbit or fish), dancing, prancing and general romancing which, regardless of your arguments, the majority of major Abrahamic religious sects frown upon as base revelries and tarnishing your soul for the afterlife.

Abstaining from things that are deemed unhealthy or things that actually ARE unhealthy.

Tim Robbins

Hivemind187 wrote:

While I aknowledge that many of the things you mentioned abstaining from are good (in your case I suppose more than others) but what about other things like indulging homosexual desires, indulging in pre-marital sex, not sucumbing to the dictum of getting married, eating meat on a friday (other than rabbit or fish), dancing, prancing and general romancing which, regardless of your arguments, the majority of major Abrahamic religious sects frown upon as base revelries and tarnishing your soul for the afterlife.

Abstaining from things that are deemed unhealthy or things that actually ARE unhealthy.

I like shopping on a Sunday. Many Christians feel they can't do this or play sport on Sunday. I would feel that was oppresive to 1 /7 of my only life.

Hivemind187

Tim Robbins wrote:

I like shopping on a Sunday. Many Christians feel they can't do this or play sport on Sunday. I would feel that was oppresive to 1 /7 of my only life.

Al-a-carte religion much?

pinksoir

PDN wrote:

I think Dawkins, for once, has a very good point. If this is the only shot at life you've got, and if this is the only world there is, then surely you would want to abstain from all the things that make it more miserable and unhealthy?

I'm sure there are atheists out there who are noted for their joyfulness and happiness. I just haven't met any yet.

You are absolutely right. However, I would also quote the maxim; everything in moderation. My mother runs a psychiatric ward and tells me many stories about people who have drunk themselves retarded, literally. However, we enjoy a glass of wine together quite often.

I don't know if you would consider marijuana mind altering, but Paul Simon and Paul McCartney wrote some of their best material whilst stoned. Furthermore, with the Beatles, Sgt. Pepper was inspired by the LSD they were taking at the time.

Not all mind-altering drugs result in a miserable and unhealthy life. In many instances they can, in fact, result in something quite beautiful that the whole world can enjoy.

Tim Robbins

Hivemind187 wrote:

Al-a-carte religion much?

Well I haven't got caught yet.

Zombrex

Hivemind187 wrote:

I just want to knowwhy they feel that way and how other atheists feel about it.

Yes but it is kinda hard to know why "they" feel that way unless one knows who "they" actually are.

Discussion about how a hypothetical group of people may or may not feel is rather pointless, is it not?

So who are we actually talking about?

Hivemind187

Wicknight wrote:

Yes but it is kinda hard to know why "they" feel that way unless one knows who "they" actually are.

Discussion about how a hypothetical group of people may or may not feel is rather pointless, is it not?

So who are we actually talking about?

"They" as in the pejoritive for the majority of religious folks. Espeicially the "you cant enjoy life because you havent had a valid experience with God like I have" mob.

Zombrex

PDN wrote:

I'm sure there are atheists out there who are noted for their joyfulness and happiness. I just haven't met any yet.

Seriously...? You haven't been looking very hard ...

Douglas Adams - Author and screen writer - "Hitchhikers" series
Matt Groening - Screen writer - Creator of "The Simpsons" and "Futurama"
Ricky Gervais - Comedian and screen writer - Creator of "The Office"
Sir Ian McKellen - Actor - Gandalf in the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy
Eddie Izzard - Comedian - Last seen in "Oceans 13"
Rodney Dangerfield - Comedian - "Caddy Shack"

etc etc (from http://www.celebatheists.com/?title=Main_Page)

Though I suppose you are technically correct in that you probably have yet to meet any of them

Zombrex

Hivemind187 wrote:

"They" as in the pejoritive for the majority of religious folks. Espeicially the "you cant enjoy life because you havent had a valid experience with God like I have" mob.

What "mob"?

Examples Hivemind, examples.

I get uncomfortable debating against a position that we think they hold. It is far more sensible to debate a position they actually do hold.

Otherwise the tendency is to form the position already with inherent problems. Shooting fish in a barrel as it were.

Hivemind187

Wicknight wrote:

Seriously...? You haven't been looking very hard ...

Douglas Adams - Author and screen writer - "Hitchhikers" series
Matt Groening - Screen writer - Creator of "The Simpsons" and "Futurama"
Ricky Gervais - Comedian and screen writer - Creator of "The Office"
Sir Ian McKellen - Actor - Gandalf in the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy
Eddie Izzard - Comedian - Last seen in "Oceans 13"
Rodney Dangerfield - Comedian - "Caddy Shack"

etc etc (from http://www.celebatheists.com/?title=Main_Page)

Though I suppose you are technically correct in that you probably have yet to meet any of them

Don't forget George Carlin!

Hivemind187

Wicknight wrote:

What "mob"?

Examples Hivemind, examples.

I get uncomfortable debating against a position that we think they hold. It is far more sensible to debate a position they actually do hold.

Otherwise the tendency is to form the position already with inherent problems. Shooting fish in a barrel as it were.

Its not specific individuals that I am targeting, but the attitude of others that in order to perceive the joy/beauty etc of the world it requires some kind of deity or organized religion.

I'm not saying every theist believes it, I'm not saying it applies in all circumstances. I am saying that there is a preconception among theists in this sense in a "broader" sense.

Its a similar attitude that leads to the idea that atheism is a group in the same way as Islam, Christianity etc.

JC 2K3

But I mean, these people also believe in God. Surely their opinion on anything relating to philosophical concepts such as enjoying life or the meaning of existance should be a matter of indifference to an atheist.

Zombrex

Hivemind187 wrote:

Its not specific individuals that I am targeting, but the attitude of others that in order to perceive the joy/beauty etc of the world it requires some kind of deity or organized religion.

I'm not saying every theist believes it, I'm not saying it applies in all circumstances. I am saying that there is a preconception among theists in this sense in a "broader" sense.

Its a similar attitude that leads to the idea that atheism is a group in the same way as Islam, Christianity etc.

Ok, fair enough

I suppose if we are keeping it general, then I find that some people (and I stress that this is not a universal generalisation) often like to think that what ever feeling they have is some how special to them, or more special that what other people are feeling.

You see this with teenagers who are convinced the love of their first girlfriend who they have been snogging for a week behind the chipper is more "powerful" than say their parents marriage.

Or the woman having her first child who is convinced no one has ever felt this strongly towards their baby (and then goes on to write a column for a local newspaper about how amazing it is).

I would imagine the same holds for some theists. They want to feel that their experience is validated by being a really powerful experience. If you said to them "Oh everyone feels like that some times, it will pass" they would no doubt get quite upset.

They particularly would particular not like the idea that someone who doesn't claim to experience a connection with God can also feel as wonderful or in awe of things. Of the feeling is used as a feed back loop to justify the belief in God that is supposed to be causing the feeling in the first place. Its a kind of I believe in God and therefore I'm feeling amazing. Because I'm feeling amazing proves that there is a God

Again I stress this is a very non-descript assessment. Without have a particular person or group tying down a reason is near impossible. It might be because of above, or it might not

pinksoir

I agree with a lot of what you said above. I was religious from the age of ten until about sixteen and I can quite vividly remember the feeling. It is quite difficult to explain the exact feeling, but suffice it to say, it is incredibly powerful and engrossing. It is like a connectedness with something greater than yourself, and also something outside of yourself.

However, I still come across this feeling regularly enough. I'm a musician and when I write songs or play music, or indeed listen to music (both sacred and secular) I experience the feeling of connectedness with something greater than myself, as indeed do many people. Which is why listening to music is so often described as a religious experience.

I know, though, that this connectedness is with something that does not exist in and of itself. I cannot explain what music is, or where it comes from, other than that it is a general concept of a fantastic, beautifully incidental byproduct of human evolution. Throughout history people have created music, and innumerable regional styles have become ingrained in the culture and tradition of different areas, in much the same way as religions have.

I also get extreme comfort from music. I know that no matter what happens to me in my life I have music to fall back on. I am never alone when I have a guitar to play. It reminds me of a line in the Paul Simon song 'Duncan';

"I was playing my guitar
lyin' underneath the stars
just thankin' the Lord
for my fingers,"

It might be hard for someone who believes whole-heartedly in God to accept that the exact same feelings that were experienced in them for religious reasons could be experienced by someone else, but not as a result of God or religion. But one thing I will say is that the feeling that someone gets from a belief in God can severely impair their judgement. Whilst I get the same feeling from music, I am aware that music does not exist outside of the human sphere of existence. Without us to experience it, it would just be empty waveforms floating around.

If musical traditions are like religions, then music is like God. Neither music nor God would exist if there were no humans to experience them.

Sapien

PDN wrote:

I'm sure there are atheists out there who are noted for their joyfulness and happiness. I just haven't met any yet.

Perhaps you have a way of putting them in a bad mood.

Tar.Aldarion

I can't think of anybody I have met that is noted for their joyfulness and happiness. Maybe if I meet the pope?

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote:

Seriously...? You haven't been looking very hard ...

Douglas Adams - Author and screen writer - "Hitchhikers" series
Matt Groening - Screen writer - Creator of "The Simpsons" and "Futurama"
Ricky Gervais - Comedian and screen writer - Creator of "The Office"
Sir Ian McKellen - Actor - Gandalf in the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy
Eddie Izzard - Comedian - Last seen in "Oceans 13"
Rodney Dangerfield - Comedian - "Caddy Shack"

etc etc (from http://www.celebatheists.com/?title=Main_Page)

Though I suppose you are technically correct in that you probably have yet to meet any of them

Just to let you know wicknight, one of the ones that you have mentioned above, in person is not joyful and not really a very happy person. And I do know so from personal experience.

Tim Robbins

PDN wrote:

I'm sure there are atheists out there who are noted for their joyfulness and happiness. I just haven't met any yet.

One must not forget: 'Ignorance is bliss'.