Posters who think they're customers

DeVore

ecksor wrote:

Don't do that. The last time you did this we banned you and you went and had a moan to paypal to get your money back. Don't subscribe thinking that it gives you immunity from being a muppet. Just stop acting like a twat.

Or I'll have a chat with your boss.

Again.

DeV.

Anti

Beruthiel wrote:

Some boss you'd make.
€14 an hour is slave labour!

I wouldnt get out of bed for that !

6th

Anti wrote:

I wouldnt get out of bed for that !

Yeah but I heard you'll get into bed for a lot less! Curry chips and a smile according to the reports

Anti

6th wrote:

Yeah but I heard you'll get into bed for a lot less! Curry chips and a smile according to the reports

You always shave to get the inside scoop on me

BrianCalgary

OTK wrote:

Posters generate the content that represents the value of the site. Posters contribute and they receive. You can look it as a contra deal..

Not really a contra deal, because that indicates that you have two sides. As far as I'm concerned there is only one side, people who are interested in this discussion board as a place to meet others with like minded interests.

OTK wrote:

Your point being here that we are not customers because we are not customers. I'm guessing you're not a theologian...

Actually I am a theologian. Your not a customer because you are not paying for the privelege of posting on the board. You are being able to because it is public. And as with anything public there are rules set up for the overall enjoyment of all who choose to post.

OTK wrote:

Being a volunteer doesn't exempt you from criticism. The owners aren't paid either but they are getting what horny investors call 'capital appreciation'..

You're correct. As a mod I will happily take constructive criticism. To date I have had only two incidents that I can recall where I was heavily criticised for pople that I banned. Even on sending them a PM as to why. One is back on the board and we are all friends.

OTK wrote:

Surely, the truly good-hearted might spend their time visiting the sick and the lonely rather than revoking access permission for naughty users in internet groups? I think it's more likely that mods do their jobs out of a reasonable desire for self-esteem. .

I don't regularly visit the places you mentioned, yet I do put back into my local community in other ways as I put back into this community by being a mod, and leaving myself open to criticism. It goes with the territory.

OTK wrote:

Complaints are of value to any organisation - if its members can find the humility to listen and then to change. Putting all your energy into angrily beating down any dissenters leads you to become a group that can't improve and that can't stop abuse..

I agree.

OTK wrote:

If you want to be a good-hearted mod, toiling away for the love of your community, maybe you should just turn the other cheek when a customer complains to you- or even about you. Stop and think: maybe the other guy has a point and maybe you don't have all the answers. Maybe it's possible that there could be a better way of doing things around here that might help boards rather than blocking your ears and taking out your animal pictures..

I do.

OTK wrote:

So I disagree with everything you had to say.

You may.

amp

Gordon wrote:

Got a link? The mods that I know that do that (myself included sometimes) do it for the reason that if someone is being an absolute muppet then they don't deserve the time it takes to get a nice response saying that they are banned. If someone is being an arse then they should do the legwork to get back in to the forum that they are privileged to post on.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are cases of lazy mods, just as there are lazy users; but the reasons that I have seen for not contacting the posters are/come from what I said above.

Me! I'm one of those mods. No mercy for the banned.

WhiteWashMan

seamus wrote:

I don't think I'll ever find myself moving towards the "all users are customers" viewpoint. In my head now, it's a large club. Everyone involved in the club, uses the club, including the guys at the top. People are free to come and go from the club whenever they want - they don't even have to pay subs if they don't want to. Members have a right to have their grievances and suggestions heard, but nothing else, and they're not guaranteed to be satisfied, only to be heard. If they are unhappy with the actions of other members or don't feel they are being listened to, they're free to leave..

#
i think thats probably becuase we have different views on what boards.ie is.

i no longer view boards as a club. i view it as a community, and yes, people are free to come and go, but that doesnt mean that you have to treat people badly, just becuase they are free to not be here.
I also dont see where one person who has lots of friends here, and has been here a few years has a say thats more important than someone who has been here a week.
but thats me.
perhaps i am looking at it from a business perspective, and not as long haired tree hugging hippy?

and if this really is a tree hugging hippy commune, i want to know who the communal breeding vassel is!

randylonghorn

r3nu4l wrote:

That's true but so is this...
If you voluntarily choose to have access to the S&S forum and get a custom avatar, having made that choice you are obliged to pay for them. The argument stands.

Ah, but you see I would look at it the other way round ... I think most people choose to subscribe to Boards for the sake of it, and are happy to be offered the custom avatar etc. as a small "thank you" (a bit like the daffodil on Daffodil Day, as I said earlier) ... rather than choosing to have access to the S&S forum and get the custom avatar, and being prepared to pay for them. And given the tiny proportion of subscribers vs. regular users, surely the scenario which applies to the latter might be considered the "dominant" ethos of Boards?

Anyway, I guess it's a matter of the individual's perspective, and it's interesting to see how different people look at it.

WhiteWashMan wrote:

i view it as a community, and yes, people are free to come and go, but that doesnt mean that you have to treat people badly, just becuase they are free to not be here.

I agree completely. I suppose what I'm not so clear on is why you would see that as "looking at it from a business perspective"?

I will admit that I have a bit of a bee in my bonnet about everything being about "consumers" and "customers" these days (I'm not talking specifically about Boards here), and companies bleating on about "customer service" (which is increasingly becoming an oxymoron), and everything in life becoming commodified. There are things you can't put a price on ... there are things it is very bloody dangerous to put a price on, or they will fade away and die simply from being conceptualised in that way.

I think you're right with community, WWM, and the whole essence of community is that people try to get along, and keep an eye out for one another, and treat one another halfway decently ... not because a member pays for a service and therefore has a right to make demands and complain about bad service, but because that's what being part of a community means.

And mabbeh that makes me a long-haired tree-hugging hippy ... though I can think of other things I'd much rather hug!

Asiaprod

r3nu4l wrote:

BTW, While I am making these arguments, I don't necessarily see myself as a customer of boards.ie. I view it as a web forum I chose to donate to.

Goes for me too. I donate my money gladly, all I expect in return is to see Boards IE continue to operate and grow as a community.

Boston

aidan_walsh wrote:

Wasn't that particular username previously perma-banned for muppetry, or am I thinking of someone else?

No, it's him, and about 15 accounts prior to that one as well. Though I can't remember the full story.

OTK

BrianCalgary wrote:

OTK wrote:

Posters generate the content that represents the value of the site. Posters contribute and they receive. You can look it as a contra deal.

Not really a contra deal, because that indicates that you have two sides. As far as I'm concerned there is only one side, people who are interested in this discussion board as a place to meet others with like minded interests.

I see two sides: the owners (and their mods) and the users.

Content is supplied by the users, quality is maintained by the mods. Physical infrastructure and software for the service are provided by the admins. Boards would be nothing without users and content. It would be nothing without quality control and it would be nothing without dedicated software and hardware.

So this is the model. Everyone gives something, everyone gets something.

There is no reason that all parties should not attempt to do their best in their respective roles as if they were bing paid. Users should contribute the most thoughtful and helpful posts, admins should maintain the service as if it were paid for and mods should behave with integrity. Why not?

When the users see themselves as customers it's really a compliment to all that they consider boards.ie as good as something commercial rather than a jumble sale or a cake fair.

randylonghorn

OTK wrote:

When the users see themselves as customers it's really a compliment to all that they consider boards.ie as good as something commercial rather than a jumble sale or a cake fair.

Except that just as I think that the standards of customer service have gone more and more to the dogs, the more the concept is hyped up as a buzz word, so I think standards of "customer" behaviour generally has degraded also.

Personally I would lean towards a model with a bit less cynicism on both sides ...

tbh

OTK wrote:

So this is the model. Everyone gives something, everyone gets something.

I don't really think that's true tho - in purely practical terms, what do the admins get out of the site? Nothing really. I mean, lets say everybody stopped coming to boards tomorrow. What would the admins have lost? If anything, they would have easier lives, and if it's a sense of community they are after, there are thousands of other boards they could join.

I see more of a comparison to a situation where someone who owns a house is happy to let all of their friends congregate in their house. Some of those guests may drop them a few quid from time to time to cover the costs of tea and coffee, but that doesn't give them the right to start asking for changes, or for expecting the door to always be open, for example. It doesn't give them the right to act inappropriately, according to the house owners definition of the word, and it certainly doesn't entitle them to carry out activities which could land the home-owners in legal jeopardy.

It always surprises me, the few users who seem to constantly complain and moan about how they are being treated, or that they can't talk about certain issues. vBulletin is a cinch to download and install, boards isn't the only place on the internet you can express yourself. If you don't like it, buy your own damn house!

Shabadu

Surely the whole appeal of Boards is the number of people with diverse opinions who use it? It shouldn't be a case of user vs. customer; we're all members of Boards.ie irrespective of subscription, postcount, modship etc.

Sure some people get chucked out every now and then, but the vast majority of Boards users are just putting along with everybody else, having a big, occasionally puerile conversation.

Besides, no one takes the odd fight the powah thread as symptomatic of some sort of Boards malaise, so why are we even talking about defining member status?

Also, It's almost noon in Vancouver and I still haven't had any coffee so sorry if this is waffle of the highest degree.

faceman

tbh wrote:

I see more of a comparison to a situation where someone who owns a house is happy to let all of their friends congregate in their house. Some of those guests may drop them a few quid from time to time to cover the costs of tea and coffee, but that doesn't give them the right to start asking for changes, or for expecting the door to always be open, for example. It doesn't give them the right to act inappropriately, according to the house owners definition of the word, and it certainly doesn't entitle them to carry out activities which could land the home-owners in legal jeopardy.

Its a public forum (in the sense its free to register and post), not a private dwelling! The forum's success is built on the strength of its members/mods/admins/active users.

I also donate because i enjoy boards but lets be honest, if the site went to the doghouse due to poor moderation of muppetry or poor performance issues or over-moderation etc etc, i would no longer donate (as would many others im sure) and would probably not visit again. Therefore the active community would decrease too. As boards.ie is a business to the owners, im they want boards to have as many users as possible and increase advertising revenues as high as possible.

So while we are customers in one sense and i do subscribe, i dont believe subscribers are any more special a 'customer' than non subscribers. But subscribing does show that extra committment to the community and hopefully add to the longer term success of boards.ie. (extra as is spinal tap's nigel tuffnel: "these go all the way to 11" )

Wow 76 posts on a thread in feedback and no poxy cats yet? WTF???

tbh

faceman wrote:

Its a public forum (in the sense its free to register and post), not a private dwelling!

it's OPEN to the public, but the admins can kick anyone out, at any time, for any reason.

The forum's success is built on the strength of its members/mods/admins/active users.

I also donate because i enjoy boards but lets be honest, if the site went to the doghouse due to poor moderation of muppetry or poor performance issues or over-moderation etc etc, i would no longer donate (as would many others im sure) and would probably not visit again. Therefore the active community would decrease too. As boards.ie is a business to the owners, im they want boards to have as many users as possible and increase advertising revenues as high as possible.

yeah, but that's only valid if the aim of the admins is to make as much money as possible, in which case it's in their interest to treat us as customers. However, I don't believe that is their aim, so it doesn't really apply. But that's just based on my assumptions, I could be wrong.

faceman

tbh wrote:

it's OPEN to the public, but the admins can kick anyone out, at any time, for any reason.

Yes but for being a muppet generally

yeah, but that's only valid if the aim of the admins is to make as much money as possible, in which case it's in their interest to treat us as customers. However, I don't believe that is their aim, so it doesn't really apply. But that's just based on my assumptions, I could be wrong.

I didnt say it was about making as much money as possible, i said it was a business - be it profit or non profit. If the admins didnt care about boards.ie and the userbase, they wouldnt have gone through the major techie upgrades (sorry im IT illiterate!) to improve site performance. When they did improve performance it made us all happier, its a win/win scenario. They also did the satisfaction survey aswell.

So what do you believe is their aim? They obviously want the site to be a success? if not would they put so much effort into it?

tbh

faceman wrote:

I didnt say it was about making as much money as possible, i said it was a business - be it profit or non profit. If the admins didnt care about boards.ie and the userbase, they wouldnt have gone through the major techie upgrades (sorry im IT illiterate!) to improve site performance. When they did improve performance it made us all happier, its a win/win scenario. They also did the satisfaction survey aswell.

See my point is tho, what do the admins gain? I think they did it because they get a kick out of being responsible for this site, rather than an effort to raise more money. I'm aware I could be naive tho, I'm not really arguing with you..

So what do you believe is their aim? They obviously want the site to be a success? if not would they put so much effort into it?

it depends on your definition of success. If you view success as earning the max amount of money possible, then it makes sense to treat all posters as potential customers, and subscribers as customers. That is something the admins have always been careful to stress is not the case.

Again, and not wanting to speak for them, obviously, I think it's a case of them saying "if you think your money gives you a say in how we run this place, we'd rather not have your money". Which is the worst business plan EVER.

solas

aidan_walsh wrote:

Wasn't that particular username previously perma-banned for muppetry, or am I thinking of someone else?

I'm developing a kind of affection for misbehaved naughty muppets

DeVore

I don't really think that's true tho - in purely practical terms, what do the admins get out of the site? Nothing really. I mean, lets say everybody stopped coming to boards tomorrow. What would the admins have lost? If anything, they would have easier lives, and if it's a sense of community they are after, there are thousands of other boards they could join.

The reason I do this and what I get out of it is watching the interconnections form and seeing events happen simply because we offered this space for common communication. Look at the recent Firefly showing for charity, we facilitated that. The SSF is another good example. Fnck it, we have Boards Babies now... actual little PEOPLE wallking about who perhaps wouldnt be if we hadnt created this place. Thats a bit of a mad feeling tbh!

I dont know why the other admins do it and I know that most of the admins would like to do it for their full time job but not until the site can support that without changing what it is.

The people who read and post on Feedback are a very small portion of Boards (I coined the word "Boardserati" for us in fact), were all keenly interested in the ethics and manner of how boards works and grows. But the vast vast majority of Boards users, simply dont care. They want to talk about Poker or ask about a PI or show off their Photography or or or or ...

Remember that the recent survey (election?) expressed a very high level of satisfaction with the site from 3500 people. That gave me a great deal of comfort about how things are running. Perfect? No, but we're doing something right.

DeV.

tbh

ok, so that was my point - basically, if the site continues to run forever, and you never make a penny out of it, it's a success, right? So there's no need to treat users like customers if that means you have to surrender some control.

DeVore

Basically thats my point of view on it yes, the site has already been a monumental success looking at it the way we did when we started it. I personally wanted to create (or recreate) Usenet but without the ability for spammers to ruin it for everyone.

Now what we've basically achieved everything I ever wished for the site, its time to dream some new dreams for it. My next wish would be that it maintains its growth rate while becoming self sufficient both in terms of money and in terms of governance.
I think the admins will always be there to step back in and take control if any group kinda "took over" Boards but I think in the next few years we'll see some sort of organic growth of self-governance and self-rules-setting by the community.

I suppose it will be the same as electing a local county council and setting down a constitution for a small country. We are getting old enough and experienced enough to be able to determine what we, as a community, might want enforced on us...
Thats a while away but I think its on the cards, dont ask me in what way though.
I'd also like to broaden our scope and functionality.

Right now I'll be happy when we get everything back on an even keel but frankly Regi and the lads are just pulling techno-magic out of their asses at the moment and I'm very confident for the platform for the future now.

DeV.

hullaballoo

DeVore wrote:

Regi and the lads are just pulling techno-magic out of their asses at the moment

Dr LektroCloud and Regi van Helden. I Techno.

Jesus Wept

WhiteWashMan wrote:

#
i think thats probably becuase we have different views on what boards.ie is.

i no longer view boards as a club. i view it as a community, and yes, people are free to come and go, but that doesnt mean that you have to treat people badly, just becuase they are free to not be here.
I also dont see where one person who has lots of friends here, and has been here a few years has a say thats more important than someone who has been here a week.
but thats me.
perhaps i am looking at it from a business perspective, and not as long haired tree hugging hippy?

and if this really is a tree hugging hippy commune, i want to know who the communal breeding vassel is!

When was your exorcism?