All Benoit Discussion In Here

Vince135792003

Benoit News: Hometown paper quotes forensic psychiatrist, explains murder-suicide mentality
By Wade Keller, Torch editor
Jun 27, 2007, 02:34


In the Edmonton Sun, Dr. John Bradford, associate chief of the integrated forensic program for the Royal Ottawa Health Care Group, said murder-suicides that wipe out a family are most often carried out by the father who believes his family will be "better off in heaven" than alive.

"The most usual cause is a major depression, normally a severe one with psychotic features," said Bradford, also a professor of forensic psychiatry at the University of Ottawa.,

Murder-suicides are often referred to as "extended suicides," when the killer decides life is not worth living him for himself or his loved ones. Bradford said steroid usage carries "a lot of baggage" because they alter both body and brain chemistry. "People that abuse steroids carry with them an increase risk of rage and rage attacks. There’s also an increased risk of depression, so it’s kind of a double whammy," he said.

He said smothering children is a common way death is caused by parents who believe there is less suffering.

Full story: http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/World/2007/06/26/4292416.html

Dragan

"People that abuse steroids carry with them an increase risk of rage and rage attacks. There’s also an increased risk of depression, so it’s kind of a double whammy," he said.

I'm actually so curious that he has found a peer reviewed study that i haven't been able to find that i have e-mail his offices!

nacho libre

Ph3n0m wrote:

aye his son Daniel suffered from Fragile X syndrome (more info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fragile_X_syndrome)

"Canadian female Pam Winthrope told News 1130 in Canada that Chris Benoit's son had a genetic condition called Fragile X syndrome.

According to WebMD, "Fragile X Syndrome is a defect of the X chromosome which causes mild mental retardation. The disorder occurs more frequently and severely among males than females. This condition is the leading known familial cause of mental retardation in the United States. Language delays, behavioral problems, autism or autistic-like behavior (including poor eye contact and hand-flapping), enlarged external genitalia (macroorchidism), large or prominent ears, hyperactivity, delayed motor development and/or poor sensory skills are among the wide range of symptoms associated with this disorder."

Winthrope, whose son also suffers from the condition, told the Canadian news outlet that her husband reached out to Benoit five years ago in an attempt to increase awareness about Fragile X.

She told News 1130, "We talked to him because I was trying to set up a support group in BC and in Canada, we only have a couple of them. My husband was struggling when we got diagnosed with our son, and Chris was struggling with his. They talked for a few minutes and then he said he didn't want to be a public face for Fragile X, he just wanted to keep it really, really quiet."

Winthrope noted that the lack of support for those affected by the disorder can tear families apart. Nonetheless, "she couldn't believe the news that Benoit had taken his life along with his wife and 7-year-old son," wrote News 1130."

So in his ill state he probably thought he was doing the child a favour.

nacho libre

Fozzy wrote:

The PWTorch brought up a point that was mentioned in one of the big tv stories on the case, that all the concussions Chris would have had during his career could have played a role. To me, that sounds like a far more likely cause than "roid rage". One of the big tv channels had Superstar Billy Graham on, and he took steroids to the point where his body has basically given out on him, but he said he never experienced "roid rage". I think that's something the media like to jump on, but the stress of not seeing your family, not getting enough sleep, being beat up and doing a lot of travelling always seems to me to be a bigger cause of any rage

But I would be inclined to side with WWE on their statement that this wasn't as a result of rage. It was deliberate, which would suggest some sort of insanity, which is why the concussions angle makes more sense to me

I'm just feeling more pity than anger about the whole thing

This post just reinforces what Marcello said on hardcore radio last night.
The wrestling culture, in particular the WWE's schedule is not conducive to family life and a wrestlers physical and mental well-being. It begets a vicious circle of painkillers, sleep deprivation, steroids, stress, and in some cases depression. I know people will say but this sort of tragedy has never happened before but i believe his wrestling lifestyle contributed to what happened. In many cases it's lead to wrestlers being divorced and being burnt out. Wrestlers are not machines they deserve an off-season too and it may give a chance to others to make a name for themselves. There are too many pay per views as it is.

MikeHoncho

nacho libre wrote:

This post just reinforces what Marcello said on hardcore radio last night.
The wrestling culture, in particular the WWE's schedule is not conducive to family life and a wrestlers physical and mental well-being. It begets a vicious circle of painkillers, sleep deprivation, steroids, stress, and in some cases depression. I know people will say but this sort of tragedy has never happened before but i believe his wrestling lifestyle contributed to what happened. In many cases it's lead to wrestlers being divorced and being burnt out. Wrestlers are not machines they deserve an off-season too and it may give a chance to others to make a name for themselves. There are too many pay per views as it is.

I agree. Its time that the WWE in particular take a look at the amount they expect from their workers. The whole lifestyle must be incredibly stressfull and the wrestlers dont seem to get the support they need. I think WWE are going to need to seriously take a look at the amount of travelling and shows they do as well as better ways to help the wrestlers deal with stress and pressure. If it means less money in Vinces pockets so be it. The real price is being payed with incidents like Eddies death and what has happened here.

fatal

nacho libre wrote:

Wrestlers are not machines they deserve an off-season

There's no doubt that they do deserve one but in a business like wrestling I don't really think that an off season would work.Even rotating superstars as was suggested on the radio show last is good in theory but in reality I do not think that it will work

fatal

fatal wrote:

There's no doubt that they do deserve one but in a business like wrestling I don't really think that an off season would work.Even rotating superstars as was suggested on the radio show last is good in theory but in reality I do not think that it will work

Any reason for that? Wrestlers work injuries to go and rehab genuine injuries all the time....why not work a fake injury so a guy can take some RandR?? The real problem is the pushing of the huge guys meaning everyone goes on the roids so as they can be huge in the hope that Vince will make em champ

Double C

TBH I can't see how rotation wouldn't work. I'm not familiar with the WWE's exact schedule, but surely there could be a rota of sorts arranged where workers work for say 9 months of the year that could tie in with storylines. As was mentioned on that radio show last night, it would also help to keep wrestlers fresh if they are off tv for 3 months. For all the Cena haters out there, I'm sure you would all love to not see him for a few months each year.

As I have stated before, the number of PPV's needs to be cut down to one a month. Also the brand split needs to be enforced, and I think it will now when things settle down again. I have no idea how much WWE need the revenue from house shows, but the number of these should be reduced too.

Edit: Good point Neil, I forgot to mention that. Surely now Vince will stop pushing the chiselled physiques, he should go for the ones with talent! If you look at Benoit, he has gotten a lot bigger since joining from WCW, not that he needed to because he was that damn good.

RebelRockChick

Reading this on Rajah:

FAYETTEVILLE, Ga. (AP) -- Two days before he and his family were found dead in an apparent murder-suicide, pro wrestler Chris Benoit told co-workers his wife and son had food poisoning and were throwing up, according to World Wrestling Entertainment.

Benoit strangled his wife, suffocated his 7-year-old son and placed a Bible next to their bodies before hanging himself with a weight-machine pulley, authorities said Tuesday.

Authorities offered no motive for the killings, which were spread out over the weekend and discovered Monday. No suicide note was found.

On Saturday, Benoit called a co-worker to say he had missed a flight and would be late for a wrestling event in Texas, WWE said in a timeline posted Tuesday on its Web site. The co-worker said Benoit sounded tired and groggy and said "I love you," which the co-worker found "out of context," WWE said.

When a co-worker who usually travels with Benoit called him later from the Houston airport, Benoit told the co-worker his wife, Nancy, was throwing up blood and that his son, Daniel, also was throwing up. Benoit said he thought it was food poisoning, according to WWE.

After Benoit talked to a WWE Talent Relations representative, the representative suggested Benoit try to make it to a pay-per-view event in Houston since he would not be able to make it to the live event in Beaumont, Texas.

But early Sunday, two co-workers received a series of text messages from the cell phones of Benoit and his wife. Most stated his home address in Fayetteville, about 20 miles south of Atlanta. One message from Benoit's phone said: "The dogs are in the enclosed pool area. Garage side door is open," according to WWE.

The text messages led WWE to ask authorities to check on Benoit and his family.

District Attorney Scott Ballard said the messages appeared to be an attempt by Benoit to get someone to the home to find the bodies after his suicide.

Investigators found anabolic steroids in the house and want to know whether the muscle man nicknamed "The Canadian Crippler" was unhinged by the bodybuilding drugs, which can cause paranoia, depression and explosive outbursts known as "roid rage."

"In a community like this it's bizarre to have a murder-suicide, especially involving the death of a 7-year-old," Ballard said. "I don't think we'll ever be able to wrap our minds around this."

He said Benoit's 43-year-old wife was killed Friday in an upstairs family room, and her feet and wrists were bound and there was blood under her head, indicating a possible struggle. Daniel was probably killed late Saturday or early Sunday, and his body was found in his bed, the district attorney said.

Benoit, 40, apparently hanged himself hours later, Ballard said. His body was found in a downstairs weight room hanging from the pulley of a piece of exercise equipment.

The prosecutor said it appeared the wrestler remained in the house for up to a day with the bodies.

The boy had old needle marks in his arms, Ballard said. He said he had been told the parents considered him undersized and had given him growth hormones.

"The boy was very small, even dwarfed," Ballard said.

Toxicology test results may not be available for weeks or even months, Ballard said. As for whether steroids played a role in the crime, he said: "We don't know yet. That's one of the things we'll be looking at."

Benoit received drug deliveries from a Florida business that sold steroids, human growth hormone and testosterone on the Internet, according to the Albany County, N.Y., District Attorney's Office, which is investigating the business, MedXLife.com.

Six people, including two of the pharmacy's owners, have pleaded guilty in the investigation, and 20 more have been arrested, including doctors and pharmacists.

The WWE, based in Stamford, Conn., issued a statement Tuesday saying steroids "were not and could not be related to the cause of death."

"The physical findings announced by authorities indicate deliberation, not rage," the company said, adding that Benoit tested negative April 10, the last time he was tested for drugs.

Steroids have been linked to the deaths of several professional wrestlers in recent years. Eddie Guerrero, one of Benoit's best friends, died in 2005 from heart failure linked to long-term steroid use.

The father of Curt "Mr. Perfect" Hennig blamed steroids and painkillers for Hennig's drug overdose death in 2003. Davey Boy Smith, the "British Bulldog," died in 2002 from heart failure that a coroner said was probably caused by steroids.

fatal

Double C wrote:

Surely now Vince will stop pushing the chiselled physiques, he should go for the ones with talent

We thought that was the case when rey mysterio became champ but our dreams were short lived

fatal

thanks for the article rebel.Its a tragedy no matter what way you look at it-whether you are a wrestling fan or not:(

Dragan

This is actually having such a big impact that it made the Celeb Gossip section on Vodafone live!

fatal

Dragan wrote:

This is actually having such a big impact that it made the Celeb Gossip section on Vodafone live!

It has been mentioned twice on the fm104 phoneshow. The first time that it was mentioned,alot of the big news stations in America didn't even have it on their websites.I do expect alot of people to email and text fm104 to talk about it,possibly tonight

fatal

fatal wrote:

We thought that was the case when rey mysterio became champ but our dreams were short lived

Or maybe the fact that Mysterio dedicated everything from tying his shoelaced to taking a piss to Eddie EVERY week on Smackdown became a joke and the fans got sick of him so Vince mistook that to mean that small guys couldnt be champ.....

blackbelt

I haven't posted here in a very long time as my interest for wrestling had declined in the last three years.

I think it is very sickening to read people condemn Benoit having not known the state of mind Chris Benoit was in when he murdered his family and then himself.

Chris Benoit could have been going insane with those close to him not realising what he was going through.He had done things out of character before he died like telling his friends that he loved them and the nature of Benoit putting Bibles beside the bodies indicates that his sanity was very much in question as he wasn't known for being religious.It could have even been temporary insanity although its only a small possibility.I just find it strange that his son and wife died a day or two before he did.

I am no psychiatrist but the gradual events over the last year or so could have led to his downfall.I'll list some possible contributing factors

1.The death of Eddie Guerrero making him depressed.
2.Possible marriage breakdown.
3.His career,he only had a short reign as champ and has not been involved in real high priority matches or storylines.Add to this work schedule,travelling and being in constant pain made him more depressed.He was passionate about wrestling and may have been v unhappy and even depressed about his career.
4.Possible that the prescription drugs may have altered his state of mind.

I believe Benoits manic depression was the key reason.I don't believe he would have done this if he was in the right mental condition.The normal person he usually was would not have done this in my opinion.

I just hope people take this into account before judging him and also realise what he gave to wrestling fans and all the sacrifices he made to entertain us.

MikeHoncho

blackbelt wrote:

I haven't posted here in a very long time as my interest for wrestling had declined in the last three years.

I think it is very sickening to read people condemn Benoit having not known the state of mind Chris Benoit was in when he murdered his family and then himself.

Chris Benoit could have been going insane with those close to him not realising what he was going through.He had done things out of character before he died like telling his friends that he loved them and the nature of Benoit putting Bibles beside the bodies indicates that his sanity was very much in question as he wasn't known for being religious.It could have even been temporary insanity although its only a small possibility.I just find it strange that his son and wife died a day or two before he did.

I am no psychiatrist but the gradual events over the last year or so could have led to his downfall.I'll list some possible contributing factors

1.The death of Eddie Guerrero making him depressed.
2.Possible marriage breakdown.
3.His career,he only had a short reign as champ and has not been involved in real high priority matches or storylines.Add to this work schedule,travelling and being in constant pain made him more depressed.He was passionate about wrestling and may have been v unhappy and even depressed about his career.
4.Possible that the prescription drugs may have altered his state of mind.

I believe Benoits manic depression was the key reason.I don't believe he would have done this if he was in the right mental condition.The normal person he usually was would not have done this in my opinion.

I just hope people take this into account before judging him and also realise what he gave to wrestling fans and all the sacrifices he made to entertain us.

Nothing excuses what he did. He killed a 7 year old child for gods sake. Although he clearly wasnt in a right state of mind you can not excuse these types of actions.

MikeHoncho

MikeHoncho wrote:

Nothing excuses what he did. He killed a 7 year old child for gods sake. Although he clearly wasnt in a right state of mind you can not excuse these types of actions.

Yea I gotta agree. theres no such thing as a child murderer of sound mind

Spud83

what happened to this thread being about how the WWE is going to move on from this. Now its more arguments about Benoit!!

Fozzy

The New York Times has an article here: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/27/us/27wrestler.html?_r=3&ref=us&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin which has quotes from Kevin Sullivan (who was married to Nancy years ago) and Chris Nowinski. Nowinski says he's trying to get the coroner to allow a brain exam which could tell what role concussions played in what happened, but it's been refused so far

Article on Brian Christopher being interviewed on tv here: http://www.pwinsider.com/ViewArticle.asp?id=25145&p=1. The media is really coming down hard on steroids being to blame for all this

Dublin1983

after all the dusts settles, benoit is no different than, the stories where reading in the papers with this sick trend of parents taking there children’s lives then there own... sadly enough, Chris wont be remembered as a champ, he will be remembered as other things(no need for me to say) i just find it hard getting my head around it, i was watching, his "Hard Knocks DVD" he seemed really quiet and they type of guy who was a passionate family man. we will never know why he did it.
what makes the deaths more harder to take in, the murderess where done over a few day period, if it had of being a momentarily lapse of madness, you could come to understand that something snapped, he shot them within a 3min period, then killing him self. but know it wasn’t.....it was more sinister.

blackbelt

I am not trying to excuse what Benoit did but I think comments like "good riddance" are sad.I mean come on,a life is a life and the man gave a lot to the fans.He wasn't totally evil and his mental state might have been out of his control.I don't think WWE realised the issue of mental state of mind after Eddie Guerrero passed away.They just concentrated on the immediate issue ie drugs policy and substance abuse.If Benoit had passed away like so many other wrestlers have,I would not have been surprised so much but the fallout of Eddie Guerreros death goes further than the aforementioned issue.WWE would have done their employees a great service by providing counselling.

Instead Benoit continued working and beating himself up.I think people should go back to the aftermath of Eddie's passing and look at Chris Benoits body language and sorrow on WWE.COM when he talked about Guerrero.He was going on a downward spiral and nobody realised this.

The whole situation is very tragic.

Dragan

Fozzy wrote:

The media is really coming down hard on steroids being to blame for all this

Of course they are, it's America. They have gone through 5 years of blaming steroids for pretty much everything and it has gone so far the even Congress got involved when frankly it is not their role to do so.

The simple fact is that roids are an easy target plain and simple. The public view of them is that they turn people into raging monsters when there is very little or NO material evidence to suggest that this the case.

As a fan of the sport i want to see further investigation into the lifestyle that these guys end up leading. Endless time on the road, constant matches and shows, time apart from loved ones, endless pressure to perform and of course physical damage sustained over the course of working that leads to all kinds of substance abuse ( from alchohol to painkillers to street drugs and indeed steroids ).

Dragan

Dublin1983 wrote:

what makes the deaths more harder to take in, the murderess where done over a few day period, if it had of being a momentarily lapse of madness, you could come to understand that something snapped, he shot them within a 3min period, then killing him self. but know it wasn’t.....it was more sinister.

Exactly, i don't know that many people in history who has sustained a 72 hour rage?

cance

Chris clearly lost it, which is a huge shame. What he did was aweful, no denying it. I only wish he had gotten some help.

I prefer to remember him as i do, the hero he was when i watched him on TV.

Ill say no more.

funloving

blackbelt wrote:

He was going on a downward spiral and nobody realised this.

that's rich coming from you....

Dublin1983

im really finding it hard to respect Chris at the moment, if he took his own life he would be a hero. he would be in wwe hall of fame on t-shirts, but no, Chris took the life of 2 innocent people.. he is no hero..... a poor innocent little 7 year old has being killed for no reason, he was taking from the world coz someone, took there depression and hate towards world and made it there decision, 2 innocent people are coming down with me. its a shame.

blackbelt

Thats the point I was thinking,

It is strange that they died in a two-three day period.Different reports say Nancy died on Saturday,Daniel on Sunday and Chris on Monday.Other reports state both mother and son died on Sunday and Benoit on Monday.It looks like a possibility that after Benoit went insane and killed his wife and son that he regained a certain amount of his sanity and being shocked,upset and scared by what he did,killed himself.It could have been a combination of emotions and panic that led him to kill himself.

He could have been in his house walking around not knowing what to do or how to handle the situation and chose that way out.

Other incidents suggest it was pre-meditated,such as the Bibles,the text messages etc.People who say "good riddance" are sort of sadists.Things like rape,child molestation are things that are not associated with being insane.Taking your families lives and then your own are associated with insanity.

I don't think its entirely down to Chris Benoit and his personality.He always did strike me as a guy who has very quiet but still a normal decent family man.I just think his personal issues,the loss of friends etc and his lifestyle are to blame for his downfall.

Ph3n0m

Sorry? He would be a hero if he just killed himself? How do you figure that one out?

The fact is, as previously stated by me and others - no one knows for absolute certainty what went through Benoit's mind, and if it was medical or related to any kind of drug intake, it wont be known for several weeks. Or if he killed them in cold blood - no one knows for a fact. Anyone who has studied the human mind or criminal psychology knows that we are absolutely capable of anything - but to do such things, there has to be a trigger.

I think its all too easy for people to condem the guy without knowing the full facts - I mean, in the case of someone having a psychotic breakdown and killing people - would that person be vilified in the same manner or would they and the dead be in reciept of more sympathy then anything else?

Personally this is the last I am going to say on it - mostly because I dont want to get drawn into a slagging match (which can and has previously happened).

My thoughts are with the remaining members of the all families affected and somehow in dealing with their grief, that they can begin to heal.

5starpool

There may be reasons for what he did, but there are no acceptable excuses.

oneofakind32

Did anyone else see the ridiculous article in The Star today which suggests Benoit may have used the crippler crossface to kill his family? Im surprised it didn't make the back-page of the Indo (International News)

fatal

Dublin1983 wrote:

im really finding it hard to respect Chris at the moment, if he took his own life he would be a hero. he would be in wwe hall of fame on t-shirts, but no, Chris took the life of 2 innocent people.. he is no hero..... a poor innocent little 7 year old has being killed for no reason, he was taking from the world coz someone, took there depression and hate towards world and made it there decision, 2 innocent people are coming down with me. its a shame.

Although obviously if Chris had only killed himself the media outburst would have not been anywhere as big as it is now.However I don't think that he would have been seen as a hero if he had only committed suicide.
Yes drugs are a problem is wrestling.There is NO denying that.However I don't think that the drug problem has gotten worse than what it was years ago where the full effects of alot of drugs were not known and it was wrestlers from that era that were the guinea pigs.
What has changed immensely from years ago is the gruelling schedule and consequently the injuries that these guys pile on top of each other.About 3 years ago I looked at the WWE schedule and it was 320+ days a year on the road----away from home.With the WWE touring the world like it never has before the schedule must consist of even more days on the road.
No matter how built these guys are,the only way they will get through such a schedule while they are battering their bodies and aggrevating previous injuries is through painkillers(and that is only the pain side of it).How about all of the family problems,travelling and backstage politics?
Human beings were not made to work through the conditions that these guys work through.Sooner or later it will all take its toll on any human being.
Until the industry as a whole figures out a way to do something to reduce the stress,pain and agony that these guys go through on a nightly basis year around this is and will not be the last wrestling death that we hear about.
They tried to address the drug side of things after Eddie died and I think that it is about time that they look at other problems of the business to address because the drug side alone clearly didn't do much

Fozzy

oneofakind32 wrote:

Did anyone else see the ridiculous article in The Star today which suggests Benoit may have used the crippler crossface to kill his family? Im surprised it didn't make the back-page of the Indo (International News)

That's the sort of thing that's gotten people banned from here (the newspaper quote, not yours). I wouldn't expect anything else from papers like that though

Spud83

Fozzy wrote:

That's the sort of thing that's gotten people banned from here (the newspaper quote, not yours). I wouldn't expect anything else from papers like that though

you believe the post????

fatal

Ph3n0m wrote:

Sorry? He would be a hero if he just killed himself? How do you figure that one out?

The fact is, as previously stated by me and others - no one knows for absolute certainty what went through Benoit's mind, and if it was medical or related to any kind of drug intake, it wont be known for several weeks. Or if he killed them in cold blood - no one knows for a fact. Anyone who has studied the human mind or criminal psychology knows that we are absolutely capable of anything - but to do such things, there has to be a trigger.

I think its all too easy for people to condem the guy without knowing the full facts - I mean, in the case of someone having a psychotic breakdown and killing people - would that person be vilified in the same manner or would they and the dead be in reciept of more sympathy then anything else?

Personally this is the last I am going to say on it - mostly because I dont want to get drawn into a slagging match (which can and has previously happened).

My thoughts are with the remaining members of the all families affected and somehow in dealing with their grief, that they can begin to heal.

I agree 100%.Im not on here to give out to Chris for doing what he is accused of doing.Im here because we lost a great wrestler....one of the best.Quite frankly im sick of every ****ing week hearing about another wrestler that I watched as a kid or only a few days ago dying because of problems in the wrestling business that have yet to be addressed because its a "fake sport".

Fozzy

alanmurphy83 wrote:

you believe the post????

From The Star? They've written worse things before

ShawnRaven

You think the Star is bad? Yesterday the English Sun had the headline:
"Chris Benoit spent the weekend killing his family"


Granted it's truth but at the time of print the details were still very sketchy.
VR!

Mossy Monk

oneofakind32 wrote:

Did anyone else see the ridiculous article in The Star today which suggests Benoit may have used the crippler crossface to kill his family?

Are you serious?

Fozzy

The DA on the case did a radio interview today which can be read here: http://www.pwinsider.com/ViewArticle.asp?id=25148&p=1

He seems to think it was an "extended period of rage". I think that's bordering more on insanity

Prufrock

I don't really know what to say about Benoit. I can hardly believe what has happened.

I know wrestlers have to deal with a lot of pressure on the road and Benoit has had a hard time of it reticently but to do what he did...

I really am lost for words. I didn't think he was capable of such a thing.

Leon11

article here which pretty much places the deaths of wrestlers on roids, although he tries other angles also

http://prowrestling.about.com/od/whatsrealwhatsfake/a/wrestlersdeaths.htm

Vince135792003

nacho libre wrote:

This post just reinforces what Marcello said on hardcore radio last night.
The wrestling culture, in particular the WWE's schedule is not conducive to family life and a wrestlers physical and mental well-being. It begets a vicious circle of painkillers, sleep deprivation, steroids, stress, and in some cases depression. I know people will say but this sort of tragedy has never happened before but i believe his wrestling lifestyle contributed to what happened. In many cases it's lead to wrestlers being divorced and being burnt out. Wrestlers are not machines they deserve an off-season too and it may give a chance to others to make a name for themselves. There are too many pay per views as it is.

5 Star post.

After all the tragedies there's been in wrestling, nothing changes. And things need to change. The Wellness Policy (although well meaning I believe) was/is nowhere near enough. It didn't go any way near far enough and then there are a list of issues too like head trauma, the schedule , being in the public eye etc...

Ands that why I hope the media do put WWE in the spotlight regardless of whether its valid or not in this case.

Because maybe, just maybe things might change a little for the better.

Also I think we as fans expect too much sometimes.

Just for the record, I'm not not condoning what he done at all. The details are horrific.

One more point, for all those saying a rotated schedule wouldn't work, I disagree. At least try it and even from a purely business perspective, if done correctly, it could work.

Doctor J

Leon11 wrote:

article here which pretty much places the deaths of wrestlers on roids, although he tries other angles also

Here's an interesting read
http://www.wrestleview.com/info/faq/deaths.shtml

The amount of overdose/suicides and heart attacks is shocking. It's far easier for the wrestling organisations to add some excitement to the same old story lines and shift tickets when you've got the biggest, meanest looking freaks out on a stage, it's seldom anyone of a "normal" athletic build has ever been a big draw because it makes it all the more implausible for the little guy to beat a guy twice his weight even though everyone is aware it's all scripted. People pay top dollar to see hulking great freaks and, as long as that is the case, steroids will be rife. Look at professional boxers to see what genuine fitness and strength looks like, wrestling sadly seems to go for sculpted bulk.

None of that takes away from what is a tragedy, two innocents murdered and a guy taking his own life after killing his wife and kid, it's truly terrible. Sadly, I'll wager it's not too long until the next pro wrestling related fatality occurs.

Vince135792003

Doctor J wrote:

It's far easier for the wrestling organisations to shift tickets when you've got the biggest, meanest looking freaks out on a stage, it's seldom anyone of a "normal" athletic build has ever been a big draw because it makes it all the more implausible for the little guy to beat a guy twice his weight even though everyone is aware it's all scripted. People pay top dollar to see hulking great freaks and, as long as that is the case, steroids will be rife.

In the UFC, which has a cross over of fans who like wrestling, Chuck Lidell is/was their biggest draw. He's a fit, athletic, talented guy but he had a bit of a belly on him in his last fight. His last 2 fights have been over 1 million buys in ppv. Nobody cares about the belly. They care about Chuck. Theres a lesson there for WWE.

I think people, or more specifically promoters need to be more open in 2007 as to what draws and what doesn't.

And if people only accept a "certain look" of wrestlers, is it not because we have been conditioned by people like Vince McMahon for the last 20 years that a wrestler must look a certain way?

Look at Benoit. He, like Eddie knew the game which is why he had to pack so much weight on small frame through constant substance use. Shouldn't a guys talent in 2007 be enough?

I mean would anyone here have thought anything less of Chris Benoit if he weighed 30 plus pounds less in an idylic situation where EVERYONE made the conscious decision to get off the juice? I don't think so.

Fozzy

Doctor J wrote:

The amount of overdose/suicides and heart attacks is shocking. It's far easier for the wrestling organisations to shift tickets when you've got the biggest, meanest looking freaks out on a stage, it's seldom anyone of a "normal" athletic build has ever been a big draw because it makes it all the more implausible for the little guy to beat a guy twice his weight even though everyone is aware it's all scripted. People pay top dollar to see hulking great freaks and, as long as that is the case, steroids will be rife.

That's obviously the main view in WWE, but I think it's completely flawed and has been proven not to be true plenty of times. The current WWE's world heavyweight champion is Edge, and he just looks like a normal tall athletic guy, but most fans recognise him as the sort of guy they'd pay to see. In TNA and on the indy circuit, there aren't many guys who you'd suspect of being on steroids. I see it as a WWE problem mainly, but there are plenty of precedents of less hulking guys being major draws. Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels to name two more. The problem usually arises when a guy tries to make up for his lack of talent with increased size. That wasn't a problem for Benoit though, he was incredibly talented. I just don't think that people actually do pay money to see huge guys, it's just something that Vince McMahon has ingrained in his head

Doctor J

Vince135792003 wrote:

And if people only accept a "certain look" of wrestlers, is it not because we have been condition by people like Vince McMahon for the last 20 years that a wrestler must look a certain way?

Exactly. The whole thing is built upon these great big fellas looking like they've been inflated with a bicycle pump. It's not exactly natural and supposedly fit guys are having heart attacks in their 30s and 40s because of it.

Doctor J

Fozzy wrote:

The current WWE's world heavyweight champion is Edge, and he just looks like a normal tall athletic guy, but most fans recognise him as the sort of guy they'd pay to see.

True, but he's definitely in the minority in recent times. When I used to watch it around the time of Wrestlemania III and the following few years, the really sculpted bodybuilder types were the minority, though obviously there were quite a few. As it has grown, the big names have usually been the ones you'd suspect of steroid abuse, excuse my ignorance but the few names I know of the modern era, the likes of HHH, Guerrero, Cena, Angle all bulked up considerably during their time in the limelight and their careers seemed to get bigger as their biceps did.

Apologies though, kinda dragging this off topic.

Vince135792003

Doctor J wrote:

Exactly. The whole thing is built upon these great big fellas looking like they've been inflated with a bicycle pump. It's not exactly natural and supposedly fit guys are having heart attacks in their 30s and 40s because of it.

I don't think it needs to be built on that in 2007.

Now I'm not saying that if the freakish phyisques disappeared, WWE wouldn't take a short term hit. They did in 1994 after the drug trial where everyone had to be squeaky clean. And I'm sure Vince remembers that better than anyone.

But like I said, in 2007, I don't believe bodies are the huge driving force behind drawing people like it once was. Look at Austin. His body never mattered a dam. It was the character that drew the fans, not the body. If he had weighed 20 lbs less and EVERYBODY was off the juice, it still would have worked. Same with the Rock.

EDIT: Dave Meltzer on http://www.hardcoresportsradio.com/ right now. Sounds very sad. Just click "listen now".

Guy:Incognito

blackbelt wrote:

I am not trying to excuse what Benoit did but I think comments like "good .

Turn off the fact he was a wrestler and famous. Why does he deserve any more respect than anyone else who does similar. Do you have any problems with people posting similar things about the guy in New York that killed the 2 kids?

People need to take off the rose tinted specs. His profession shouldnt shield him from the treatment anyone else gets in the same circumstances. It doesnt make a difference whether he's a taxi man or a wrestler.

Vince135792003

Stekelly wrote:

People need to take off the rose tinted specs. His profession shouldnt shield him from the treatment anyone else gets in the same circumstances. It doesnt make a difference whether he's a taxi man or a wrestler.

I don't think the majority are. People aren't trying to make execuses for him. How could anybody do that?

However, explainations are not excuses.

Speculating that Benoit had brain injuries or some other issue that may have led to this isn't giving him a pass, it's not forgiving him, it's looking for a flipping reason. Because people just don't DO this kind of thing out of the blue most of the time without something at least in part being wrong with them.

Explainations are not excuses.

tribulus

http://www.powerliftingwatch.com/node/5346

More discussion of the whole roid rage thing.

I found this amusing.

Article wrote:

you know there are 178 registered sex offenders in my county alone,2 of which are child murderers, and 69 of which are deemed child predators (more than one conviction).
Our state park is used as a hook up spot for fags to bugger each other and they have a tent pitched not far from our property where they go to do their deeds.
But what really keeps me up all night are all these wrestlers and they're performance enhancing drug use. It's all I can think about, and I am so glad that uncle sam is finally going to look into this so that decent god fearing people can rest easy.
God bless the usofa!!!