Advanced Driving Test

djfattony2000

Im thinking of doing the Institute of Advanced Motorists test. Does anyone one know about it? Is it worth doing? Do you get a document to say you have it?

Darragh29

djfattony2000 wrote:

Im thinking of doing the Institute of Advanced Motorists test. Does anyone one know about it? Is it worth doing? Do you get a document to say you have it?

First I heard of this was when Hibernian were peddling this around the place during their "Ignition" driver training program. What exactly is "advanced" driving??? To me, driving doesn't get any more "advanced" than driving properly with courtesy for other road users. I don't get "advanced" driving. It makes me cringe when you get people like the over rated taxi drivers from the Advanced Driving Institute trying to inflate their own role in the world by harping on about being "advanced" drivers and using all this sexy terminology when it comes to driving. Just get in the car, drive safety and have respect for other road users. I can't for the life of me see how it can be made any more complicated than that.

They teach you useful things like how to regain control of a car in an accident and stuff like that.

Darragh29

Deleted User wrote:

They teach you useful things like how to regain control of a car in an accident and stuff like that.

Surely an "advanced" driver would not be in an accident, or would not find themselves in a situation where they had lost control of a car they were driving???

You must expect the unexpected when driving., Be prepared, and the rest of those sayings apply. Someone may crash into you. S*** happens no matter how prepared or careful you are when driving. Advanced driving courses teach you to react properly when things go wrong. Im definately going to do one.

squishywishy

Have never eveb heard of it! can somebody explian what it is and how it benefits you??

Well they are not run by the goverment if thats what you mean by never hearing of them. They are not compulsory, but some of the insurance companies give discounts if you take and pass an advanced driving course.

Wishbone Ash

All the info here: Irish Advanced Motorists

squishywishy

oh so its just the same as the ignition thing??

Anan1

Darragh29 wrote:

Surely an "advanced" driver would not be in an accident, or would not find themselves in a situation where they had lost control of a car they were driving???

It's not quite that simple, Darragh...

OP - It is worth doing. You'll find driving both more relaxing & safer afterwards.

Darragh29

<SNIP>

Edit: Steady on Darragh - no need for offensive language!

Darragh29

<SNIP>

Offensive post removed. Consider that a yellow card Darragh29

SouperComputer

squishywishy wrote:

oh so its just the same as the ignition thing??

The ignition is based on it alright, but the IAM test is longer and much more varied. It has nothing to do controlling skids or whatnot, the focus of it is to avoid getting into situations like that in the first place. Basically scanning, looking for clues/hazards and buying yourself as much time as possible in a given situation.

I'd reccomend it, if nothing else you can save on insurance. Anything that gets you into a habit constantly of re-evaluating your driving is good. The fact that you seem interested in doing it is a good start.

Darragh29 wrote:

just get in the car, drive safely and have respect for other road users.

All valid points. However they are subjective terms. What seems safe or respectable varies amongst drivers. Based on proven techniques the IAM can help ensure that your driving meets these criteria.

IIRC drivers who have passed their advanced test are 60% less likely to be involved in a accident. I think that statistic is from either the Irish or Brittish site, so it would be fair to say it is beneficial.

Darragh29

SouperComputer wrote:

The ignition is based on it alright, but the IAM test is longer and much more varied. It has nothing to do controlling skids or whatnot, the focus of it is to avoid getting into situations like that in the first place. Basically scanning, looking for clues/hazards and buying yourself as much time as possible in a given situation.

I'd reccomend it, if nothing else you can save on insurance. Anything that gets you into a habit constantly of re-evaluating your driving is good. The fact that you seem interested in doing it is a good start.

All valid points. However they are subjective terms. What seems safe or respectable varies amongst drivers. Based on proven techniques the IAM can help ensure that your driving meets these criteria.

IIRC drivers who have passed their advanced test are 60% less likely to be involved in a accident.

I wouldn't put a shred of weight behind this statistic, in particular because it is their own statistic on their own website. Looking at what is ahead of you and looking for oncoming risks is something that any driver should be doing constantly. You don't need to do an advanced driving course to start doing this. From what I saw with my own eyes, the IAM like using fancy jargon and creating all sort of psuedo risky scenarios to make themselves look important when they are telling you to do this and that.

One example is when I heard an IAM instructor saying that you should slow down your car with the engine and not use the brake until you need to stop, because this is a safer way to brake. The logic being that some day, you might need to use your brakes and you'll put your foot on the brake pedal and there will be no brake there. The only way I can see you putting your foot on the brake pedal and there being no brake there to stop you is if you do not get your car regularly serviced and maintained.

To me, this is just stupidity at it's absolute worst. What this guy was saying to me was, "I'm an advanced driver, I don't get my car serviced regularly so God only knows how much of a danger I am to other road users, but I'm going to preach to everyone how to be a safe driver!". Furthermore, how is a car behind you supposed to know you are slowing down, (but are not using your brakes), if your brake lights don't come on, as your brake lights won't come on if you are slowing down to a crawl using your engine and going through the gears??? This prolonged braking using the engine will ultimately damage your gearbox and also will cause your clutch to wear faster than it should.

When I heard this coming from an so called "advanced" driver, I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.

I've no problem with people trying to improve their driving skills, but I have a problem with people who quote chapter and verse and make wild roving statements that are obviously not based on fact. When I asked this IAM driver how he considered that the whole braking system can fail without warning and the car would be out of control in the context of him being an advanced driver and understanding the importance of vehicle servicing and maintenance, (which is actually almost impossible as manufacturers have designed redundancy systems into the braking system so you cannot be left with no braking ability, even if you don't get your car looked after), I was told I "didn't understand the technical aspects of a motor vehicle, which IAM members are fully and comprehensively trained in". This would be grand if I wasn't a qualified motor mechanic. I think the point is obvious...

ninty9er

^^^^

For one an advanced driver has no way of knowing if they may need to regain control of their car. hazards may not be explicit until the risk occurs. (i.e black ice, another driver losing control and hurtling at you etc...)

also, engine braking is taught by all good instructors, advanced or not!! It's best practice, but to be used in conjunction with the brake pedal. You'll notice a difference in driving an auto box because you can't use engine braking and this is generally why they go through brake pads faster too.

Wishbone Ash

ninty9er wrote:

engine braking is taught by all good instructors, advanced or not!! It's best practice, but to be used in conjunction with the brake pedal

Perhaps in a car, but it's considered a 'no-no' in heavier vehicles.

"Gears to go, brakes to slow" is the truck drivers motto. An articulated truck can easily be 'jack-knifed' if slowed using the engine as the brakes on the trailer, where most of the weight is, are not activated. (Normally when braking in an 'artic' the trailer brakes a fraction of a second before the tractor unit to ensure stability).

ninty9er wrote:

You'll notice a difference in driving an auto box because you can't use engine braking and this is generally why they go through brake pads faster too.

Yup.

SouperComputer

So Darragh29 are you basing your authoritive opinion on your experience with a single IAM instructor?

Have you actually attended the IAM? Reason asking is that at no stage do they proclaim that it is special knowledge, but common sense for the most part. Somewhat agreeing with your POV

Darragh29 wrote:

(which is actually almost impossible as manufacturers have designed redundancy systems into the braking system so you cannot be left with no braking

This would be grand if I wasn't a qualified motor mechanic

Although its highly unlikely that you will have a full system failure, the redunancy that you speak of isn't really effective. If you suffer sudden fluid/pressure (busted seal/damaged pipe) loss in the front circuit for example you still have the rear but the braking action is next to worthless in an emergency situation. IMO its almost as good as having a brake failure.

Not a big fan of engine braking myself, tend to use heel-and-toe.

/edit I probably should say that I agree that the guy you talked to from the IAM sounds full of it.

nastysimon

djfattony2000 wrote:

Im thinking of doing the Institute of Advanced Motorists test. Does anyone one know about it? Is it worth doing? Do you get a document to say you have it?

Financially it can be worth it, but from a safety point of view, it is most definitely. There are some who will not benefit from it, some because they are already as good as the IAM course can help them be (those very few), but the majority that don't really benefit are too closed minded to accept that it will help and that they have a lot to learn (all drivers do).
It won't teach you how to drive like Alonso, but it will teach you how to avoid accidents and still make good progress. They will teach you how to recognize, prioritize and handle hazards and how to deal with dangerous situations. All that said, unless you realise that your driving can be improved significantly, there is nothing that they can do for you.
I would suggest reading "Roadcraft: The Police Driver's Handbook" as a starting point and unless you gain absolutely nothing from it, the IAM will have a lot to teach you, if you want to learn.
BTW, there are some "advanced" drivers who let it get to their heads, and there are many criticisms that can be leveled at the IAM. Nonetheless, I have far more respect (as a driver) for someone who is willing to try it to learn, and still fails to pass the test than someone who is unwilling because they think that it offers them nothing at all.

Mitch Connor

Wishbone Ash wrote:

All the info here: Irish Advanced Motorists

just had a look at the site there a minute ago - looks very interesting. Would love to do the course (would definately have to go for the mentor approach) but i think i'll have to wait a while - don't think i'd be up to it yet; i consider myself to be a fairly safe driver, but not all that good, there are some basics i have still to master. For instance, i can't parallel park (though at this point i don't even attempt it cause i don't want to hit anyones car by accident).

Might pick up the book the recommend in the mean-time, should be an interesting read.

MrPudding

Darragh29 wrote:

Surely an "advanced" driver would not be in an accident, or would not find themselves in a situation where they had lost control of a car they were driving???

So is there such a thing as an advanced driver or not?

I have not deon advanced driving but I have done advanced riding, of a motorbike that is. Though some might say......:D

I would say do it if you can. It has opened my eyes and make me a much better rider. Some things are very obvious but until they are pointed out as "a good thing" you might not do them.

I would say that the vast majority of drivers or riders, assuming they approach it with an open mind with the the belief that they still have something to learn will get huge benefit from it.

MrP

Darragh29

SouperComputer wrote:

So Darragh29 are you basing your authoritive opinion on your experience with a single IAM instructor?

Yip. Once was enough for me...

SouperComputer wrote:

Although its highly unlikely that you will have a full system failure, the redunancy that you speak of isn't really effective. If you suffer sudden fluid/pressure (busted seal/damaged pipe) loss in the front circuit for example you still have the rear but the braking action is next to worthless in an emergency situation. IMO its almost as good as having a brake failure.

Not a big fan of engine braking myself, tend to use heel-and-toe.

The only reason I can see for sudden and complete/almost complete brake failure is a complete lack of maintenance on the part of the driver.

Your brakes are there to slow or stop your vehicle. Your engine is there to accelerate. This guy was slowing down from 80MPH to 15MPH using his engine and then using the brakes at the last minute, in my opinion this is downright dangerous, because the driver behind you doesn't know what you are doing, whereas if you were using your brakes, they would know exactly what you were doing. Another load of crap I heard from this guy was deliberately slowing down to below the speed limit in the area to build up a tail of traffic behind you. Obviously people cop that you are not keeping up with the flow of traffic and start tailgating you and flashing headlights at you. In this guys opinion, this is fine because if they crash into you, they are completely in the wrong and you have "time and space in front of you"...

nastysimon

Darragh29 wrote:

The only reason I can see for sudden and complete/almost complete brake failure is a complete lack of maintenance on the part of the driver.

Your brakes are there to slow or stop your vehicle. Your engine is there to accelerate. This guy was slowing down from 80MPH to 15MPH using his engine and then using the brakes at the last minute, in my opinion this is downright dangerous, because the driver behind you doesn't know what you are doing, whereas if you were using your brakes, they would know exactly what you were doing. Another load of crap I heard from this guy was deliberately slowing down to below the speed limit in the area to build up a tail of traffic behind you. Obviously people cop that you are not keeping up with the flow of traffic and start tailgating you and flashing headlights at you. In this guys opinion, this is fine because if they crash into you, they are completely in the wrong and you have "time and space in front of you"...

The IAM emphasizes the value of car maintenance and encourages people to do basic checks on their car before they set out on each and every journey, things like checking that you have enough fuel, oil, coolant, wash fluid, that your lights work and your tyres and wipers are in good condition. They also suggest testing your brakes are at least basically functional before you might need them. That said, mechanical failure can happen through no fault of the driver/owner. The IAM does not expect you to be an expert mechanic and the last time the car was serviced, it may not have been put back together properly, or there may be a design flaw, etc.
What you describe is not the general attitude of all IAM members I have met. They value making progress and while they may place their own safety ahead of others, they also place other's safety ahead of everything else. I can see how what they were doing might be misinterpreted by you to mean the above. For instance, using engine braking is generally encouraged, but only for gentle braking. This is done to preserve you brakes and it also means that you aren't slowing so quickly as to pose a risk to drivers behind you. That said, whenever I do so, I also gently rest my foot on the brake pedal which lights up the brake lights without actually pressing the brake pad against the disc (this only works on some cars). When you have to resort to using your brakes in earnest on primary rural roads, you are not driving as smoothly as you can.
One must always give oneself sufficient space and time to be able to drive smoothly and safely and if this means driving below the speed limit, so be it. You should never have to do an emergency maneuver. If this means that you will have a queue of cars behind, that may be to only safe course of action, though my opinion is that one should not only give oneself space and time in front but also do one's best to have it behind too so that those who follow you will be able to avoid you if you do need to brake hard (sometimes even the best drivers make mistakes). This is why I think that one should make sure that there is enough room behind too and this usually means letting those behind you pass if you are likely to hold them up for a significant length of time. Any IAM members I know agree that it is less than ideal to have others driving behind you, especially if they are anxious to pass.
BTW, if driving with the flow of the traffic is dangerous, then you shouldn't do it. If you want to be a lemming and do so, that's your choice, but it is not the safe one.

MrPudding

Darragh29 wrote:

in my opinion this is downright dangerous, because the driver behind you doesn't know what you are doing,

IAM follow Roadcraft. Roadcraft uses the system of motorcycle / car control. The most important section of the system in information. This is gathering information and, where appropriate, giving information.

If there is no one behind you then there is no need to show you are slowing down. If there is a driver behind you and you feel they would benefit from the information, even if you are using engine breaking, then a light touch on the brakes will let them know.

The subject of engine breaking versus using you brakes is where I find Roadcraft and IAM slightly at odds. Roadcraft tells us we should really only use engine braking where there is a high risk of skidding, for example in icy conditions. IAM kind of prefer engine breaking.

I think this difference is due to what each is trying to do. Roadcraft is designed for the police. it is a very practical, efficient and safe method of driving a car or riding a bike.

IAM are looking for similar things, but they place a lot of emphasis on smoothness. By being in the correct gear and using engine breaking it is possible to have an incredibly smooth journey. I have no doubt that the same can be achieved with brakes, but it seems to be a lot easier without them.

I was out with my one to one observer last night and we were covering some very nice twisty country roads and I have to say I get an huge amount of satisfaction from doing a 2 or 3 miles section of road, with speeds varying from 20mph for some corners right up to the speed limit, without using my brakes. Don’t get me wrong, if I need to I will not hesitate to use them, but if you look far enough ahead and plan things correctly rolling off the throttle can be enough to get to the right speed. It really is very enjoyable.

Some people in IAM really like the engine braking thing, but at the end of the day you won’t fail the test for using them.

MrP

R.O.R

Darragh29 wrote:

Furthermore, how is a car behind you supposed to know you are slowing down, (but are not using your brakes), if your brake lights don't come on, as your brake lights won't come on if you are slowing down to a crawl using your engine and going through the gears???

Just had to take issue with this.

If, as you post, you are constantly observing all that is going on around you then you would notice that the distance between yourself and the car in front is decreasing and also take your foot off the accelerator to do the same as the car in front. If you aren't tailgating them then this works. Works especially well on motorways if people do this, cuts down the instance of traffic jams with everyone breaking just slightly more than the car in front so eventually everything comes to a complete halt - although this does presume that people are taught to drive by someone who knows what they are doing, rather than jumping in a car by themselves and guessing :rolleyes:


I haven't done the IAM course, but my Dad who's driving I observed for years before getting behind the wheel myself was a long time advanced motorist. I'd like to think I picked up a good amount of the techniques he used.

BrianD3

As R.O.R and Pudding say, "engine braking" happens anytime you lift your foot off the throttle with the drive engaged. Engine braking doesn't have to involve slamming down through the gears.

If you are looking ahead you can often determine that you will need to slowdown/stop well before you actually do. Lifting off the throttle a time before you brake will do a lot for fuel economy and brake pad life and probably reduces traffic conjestion (less domino effect from brake lights) and stress for everyone. And as you're slowing down more gradually if you come across oil/ice etc. there is much less chance of losing control.

A big problem with many drivers is they go straight from the throttle to the brake and have no concept of smooth and progressive use of controls. The amount of feckin eejits I see flying up to T junctions with the throttle on the floor then at the last minute braking so hard that the ABS kicks in. They get away with it on a dry road but when they try to apply the same technique on ice they sail straight on

Darragh29

nastysimon wrote:

The IAM emphasizes the value of car maintenance and encourages people to do basic checks on their car before they set out on each and every journey, things like checking that you have enough fuel, oil, coolant, wash fluid, that your lights work and your tyres and wipers are in good condition. They also suggest testing your brakes are at least basically functional before you might need them.

This isn't advanced motoring, this is ELEMENTARY motoring. This is my issue with these guys. They are really ELEMENTARY motorists who just like to talk a lot in my opinion.

MrPudding

Darragh29 wrote:

This isn't advanced motoring, this is ELEMENTARY motoring. This is my issue with these guys. They are really ELEMENTARY motorists who just like to talk a lot in my opinion.

There is slightly more to it than checking your car. :rolleyes:

That said, i doubt a large number of drivers even do what you think is elementary.

And Darragh, don't worry, we get it. You are an excellent driver and anyone even trying to improve or help other improve is an idiot.

Will you teach me? Please?

MrP

Idleater

MrPudding wrote:

And Darragh, don't worry, we get it. You are an excellent driver and anyone even trying to improve or help other improve is an idiot.

Will you teach me? Please?

tee hee.

The first rule of advanced motoring is to acknowledge the fact that you are in fact not a good driver.

You learn, every day, every journey, whether driving or not, from all your experiences.

Applying these experiences again out on the road is applying advanced driving methodologies.

nastysimon

Darragh29 wrote:

This isn't advanced motoring, this is ELEMENTARY motoring. This is my issue with these guys. They are really ELEMENTARY motorists who just like to talk a lot in my opinion.

I would agree that it is quite basic stuff, as is most of what the IAM teach. Even still, can you honestly say that every single time you set out on a journey that you have done all these checks? If you can, very few other drivers do and this is one area in which there is a difference between advanced and ordinary drivers. It is also one of the simplest such. There are a great many other areas in which they do things that most drivers do not (such as evaluating each and every hazard and making sure that they give themselves adequate time and space). This is why they are advanced, it is all relative and I'm sure you will accept that the vast majority of drivers are appalling, so to be comparatively advanced does not require any genius or particularly great skill, just a little applied common sense. The IAM does a lot of applying common sense.
BTW, if what they teach is not advanced driving, what is?

Darragh29

MrPudding wrote:

And Darragh, don't worry, we get it. You are an excellent driver and anyone even trying to improve or help other improve is an idiot.

Will you teach me? Please?

MrP

No, I'm not an excellent driver, but I'm a safe driver. I also don't think that folks who want to improve their driving skills are idiots either. I do however take exception to individuals who appear to hold seriously questionable views with regard to how to drive, telling me how to drive. When someone tells me to use an engine to bring a car to a near stop instead of a brake, I don't think that is safe. When someone tells me that someday I might go to use my brakes and there will be no brakes there, what I hear is that this guy doesn't know what he is talking about. When someone tells me to slow down and create a tailback behind me with a guy driving up my arse and flashing me, I don't think that is wise council either. I also think that driving a car is not as complex as those in the IAM would want us to believe.

Darragh29

nastysimon wrote:

I would agree that it is quite basic stuff, as is most of what the IAM teach. Even still, can you honestly say that every single time you set out on a journey that you have done all these checks? If you can, very few other drivers do and this is one area in which there is a difference between advanced and ordinary drivers. It is also one of the simplest such. There are a great many other areas in which they do things that most drivers do not (such as evaluating each and every hazard and making sure that they give themselves adequate time and space). This is why they are advanced, it is all relative and I'm sure you will accept that the vast majority of drivers are appalling, so to be comparatively advanced does not require any genius or particularly great skill, just a little applied common sense. The IAM does a lot of applying common sense.
BTW, if what they teach is not advanced driving, what is?

My opinion remains that when you have reached a certain level of competency when driving, it really doesn't get any more complicated than that, you are a competent and safe driver. Some people never reach this level of competency, some people never learn to use indicators, some people will never be able to drive in a way which is not agressive. However a lot of people are very safe drivers. In my opinion, what the IAM have done is they have put a particular construction upon certain aspects of motoring theory with a view to making it look like you have to do their course to become an "advanced" driver, so that they can decodify what they have made complicated.


In my honest, humble opinion, if you are a safe and competent driver, you're advanced enough.