Advanced Driving Test

nastysimon · 30-06-2007 1:26am

Darragh29 wrote:

My opinion remains that when you have reached a certain level of competency when driving, it really doesn't get any more complicated than that, you are a competent and safe driver. Some people never reach this level of competency, some people never learn to use indicators, some people will never be able to drive in a way which is not agressive. However a lot of people are very safe drivers. In my opinion, what the IAM have done is they have put a particular construction upon certain aspects of motoring theory with a view to making it look like you have to do their course to become an "advanced" driver, so that they can decodify what they have made complicated.

In my honest, humble opinion, if you are a safe and competent driver, you're advanced enough.

I would have to disagree. There are very few safe drivers out there, at least in percentage terms. How many do you see tailgating (less than 2 second gap in the dry, or 4 in the wet is tailgating)? Or not turning on their lights when it is raining or the reasonably wet? Or using fog-lights when there is no fog? Or talking on the phone as they drive? Or gesticulating to their passenger? etc. As for ever being advanced enough, I definitely disagree. One can never be, one always has room to improve and it is a very dangerous trap to slip into. It is this complacency that so many drivers slip into, they feel that they're good enough and don't have much left to learn about how to drive safely. We all know the type as they make up the vast majority of drivers out there. Every mile should help you improve, every journey is one that you must learn from. I'm not saying that one should devote one's life to being a great driver, but just that one should use the time that one does spend behind the wheel and a little of the time one doesn't to improve as it may save your life, or someone else's. Being a safe driver is a skill that you learn and re-learn every time you sit behind the wheel.

MrPudding · 30-06-2007 1:55pm

Darragh29 wrote:

When someone tells me to slow down and create a tailback behind me with a guy driving up my arse and flashing me, I don't think that is wise council either. I also think that driving a car is not as complex as those in the IAM would want us to believe.

I have to say, perhaps you did not have a great IAM experience. Certainly none of the IAM people I know would have said some of the things your guy said. But, the above comment I find interesting.

I don't quite get it. You say earlier that he told you to intentially slow down to build up a tail behind you? Are you sure you have that right? There are reasons for slowing down to below the speed limit and to be honest you should not be overly concerned with what the people behind you think.

Don't get me wrong, you need to be considerate to other drivers, inculding those behind you who may be in a hurry and may genuinely believe that their time is more important than yours but where so you draw the line?

So you are doing 100kph a the guy behind you is tailgating you do you speed up to give yourself some room? So now you are doing 120, he is still tailgating you. What do you do now? 140? 160? Are what if you are simply driving at the speed limit and there are some tight bends coming up? Do you want to take the bends at a speed you are not comfortable with simply because you think you might irritate the driver behind you?

You should drive with respect and accomodation for other road users but not at the expense of your own comfort and safety.

If someone is tailgating you the standard response is to slow down. This is not to irriate the guy behind, it is to give you space ahead should you need to do something in an emergency. It also give the guy behind you a better chance of passing you. The best pleace for a tailgater is in front of you.

I hope you misunderstood what this guy was telling you. It does not make sense to me and it very different from any of the conversations I have had with quite a large number of IAM people. I am sure the other folks here with IAM experience will back me up on this.

MrP

MrPudding · 30-06-2007 2:09pm

Darragh29 wrote:

My opinion remains that when you have reached a certain level of competency when driving, it really doesn't get any more complicated than that, you are a competent and safe driver.

Drivers and riders of muchh higher levels of competency than you or I would disagree with this.

I have recently been dealing with some highly qualified and highly competant drivers and riders. One of the most inpressive was a guy called Grant Goodings. He is the chief instructor with Thames Valley police, RoSPA Chief Examiner, Manx GP winner and one of only a handful of people in the UK qualified to teach the RoSPA diploma. One of the thing that struck me most about him was his attitude towards his skills. He is a very very highly skilled driver and rider, but at the same time fully appreciates that he still has things to learn and he learns more every day. Listening to him talk really brought home to me the fact you never ever reach a level of competency and that is it. It is constantly learning.

From my point of view, even if that is the only thing you take away from advanced training then it would be worth it.

Darragh29 wrote:

Some people never reach this level of competency, some people never learn to use indicators,

Everybody learns how to use indicators. I doubt there is anyone on the road that does not know how to use them. People simply choose not to use them. Attitude.

Darragh29 wrote:

some people will never be able to drive in a way which is not agressive.

Not being aggressive is not something you learn. Again, attitude.

Darragh29 wrote:

However a lot of people are very safe drivers. In my opinion, what the IAM have done is they have put a particular construction upon certain aspects of motoring theory with a view to making it look like you have to do their course to become an "advanced" driver, so that they can decodify what they have made complicated.

To a certain extent I agree with you here. As an organisation they have to have "a company line." The company line they use is their version of RoadCraft. You are under no obligation to do their training. Read Roadcraft, practice and sit the test. Simple.

What IAM does is it takes RoadCraft and the system within and it teaches it to people that want to learn. For me it has been a very enjoyable experience, but then I have not met any IAM people like the guy you did. to be honest that might have out me off as well.

Darragh29 wrote:

In my honest, humble opinion, if you are a safe and competent driver, you're advanced enough.

But you can always be safer and more competent.

MrP

MrPudding · 03-07-2007 10:59pm

Darragh29 wrote:

One example is when I heard an IAM instructor saying that you should slow down your car with the engine and not use the brake until you need to stop, because this is a safer way to brake. The logic being that some day, you might need to use your brakes and you'll put your foot on the brake pedal and there will be no brake there.

I know this a bit sad but I have been giving this bit of thought, this is not normal, I just happen to have my test coming up.

I have to say I do have a bit of a problem with how you say this guy explained things, I don't really agree with it and I do not thnk he is doing IAM any favours explaining things this way.

So, anyway. Slowing down using the engine. Since I started by advance training I use my brakes less and less. When I was thinking about your comments I realised this guy has it the wrong way round.

He should not be saying you need to not use your brakes to be a advanced rider or driver but that as you become an advanced rider or driver you use the brakes less.

I went out for a ride with one of my colleague the other day. When we finished he asked me how come my brake light hardly ever comes on een in the twisties. Trying to be funny I said cos I was always doing the speed I wanted to do for a corner so I didn't need to brake.

When I thought about it is actually true. With the advanced training and using the system you will find that as you are observing better, planning more in advanced you just seem to magically always, or a least nearly always be in the right gear at the right speed. It is quite satisfying really.

Anyway. I hope that explaines things a bit better.

MrP

Darragh29 · 05-07-2007 7:23pm

MrPudding wrote:

So, anyway. Slowing down using the engine. Since I started by advance training I use my brakes less and less. When I was thinking about your comments I realised this guy has it the wrong way round.

He should not be saying you need to not use your brakes to be a advanced rider or driver but that as you become an advanced rider or driver you use the brakes less.

MrP

Sorry, I just don't get advanced driving. If you want to do an advanced course in getting from A to B, find something that is actually complicated, like flying. Don't just take something that is relatively easy for most people to grasp and unnecessarily complicate it and then go around saying that you're more advanced than others on the road who have the same safety and competence record as you have.

Another annoying habit that this "advanced" driver from the IAM had, was passing critical and downright smart arse remarks about every other driver that was to his left, right, in front and behind him. From where I was sitting, it smacked of an unbelievable arrogance, something I reckoned he took up because he had a little badge somewhere that said he was an "advanced" driver.

Wishbone Ash · 05-07-2007 8:48pm

Darragh29 wrote:

If you want to do an advanced course in getting from A to B, find something that is actually complicated, like flying

The most complicated aspect of flying is driving to and from the airport. Up in the air, you're with professionals.

Darragh29 wrote:

Another annoying habit that this "advanced" driver from the IAM had, was passing critical and downright smart arse remarks about every other driver that was to his left, right, in front and behind him

When I was doing lessons for the artic, my instructor used to say "Remember, you are surrounded by muppets out here!" or coming up to a junction/roundabout "Did you do your muppet check!".

nastysimon · 05-07-2007 10:45pm

Darragh29 wrote:

Sorry, I just don't get advanced driving. If you want to do an advanced course in getting from A to B, find something that is actually complicated, like flying. Don't just take something that is relatively easy for most people to grasp and unnecessarily complicate it and then go around saying that you're more advanced than others on the road who have the same safety and competence record as you have.

If it is so simple, why does it seem that most drivers are really bad? I don't mean almost ok, I mean really bad. What percentage of drivers check their mirrors before they brake at all? Every time? Or make sure that if they aren't going to overtake the car in front within the next few seconds that there is enough room for another to overtake them and comfortably pull in in front of them? Use their mirrors correctly? Check their blind spot for cars when turning? Refuse to talk while driving (not just mobile use)? Turn off the radio? Check their tyre pressures, lights, etc. every week? Etc. There are many bad habits that people develop, and just as many things that they should have been doing but never do. None of it is particularly difficult, but people don't do it and it leads to people dying. An IAM member should not only do all of the above but much more besides. It's almost like the difference between a trainee pilot and an experienced and well trained one.

Another annoying habit that this "advanced" driver from the IAM had, was passing critical and downright smart arse remarks about every other driver that was to his left, right, in front and behind him. From where I was sitting, it smacked of an unbelievable arrogance, something I reckoned he took up because he had a little badge somewhere that said he was an "advanced" driver.

Every good driver I know does this to some degree. Much of it is spotting the mistakes that they make and making light of it. It helps deal with it. The only people I know who do not commentate on other drivers are fairly weak drivers and often fail to see what the others are doing wrong. Just putting other drivers down because they are driving an old car, or a slow car, etc. and not for something that they have done wrong is a bit silly. BTW, I also chastise myself when I make a mistake. Even verbally, when there are others around.

MrPudding · 06-07-2007 9:05am

Wishbone Ash wrote:

T

When I was doing lessons for the artic, my instructor used to say "Remember, you are surrounded by muppets out here!" or coming up to a junction/roundabout "Did you do your muppet check!".

My direct access intstructor was a great fan of the muppet check as well.

Darragh, I understand that you do not get Advanced Driving. Believe me, you don't need to tell us, it is very obvious.

I can see that it is not for everyone. Some people are able to see that they are not perfect drivers and want to improve their skills. Some people might even think they are reasonable drivers, but still know they can improve. Some people are actually quite bad and maybe a little dangerous, but unlike many, are actually able to say "fcuk me, that was a but hairy, I better do something about it." Some people simply want to meet other people that enjoy driving a car or riding a bike and if they pick up some pointers along the way, bonus. These are the type of people that take up advanced driving.

Then you have people that believe they are already superb drivers, some of them might actually be right. You have people that think they have nothing to learn and there is no point in even trying. You also have people that are sh1t but don't care. These people will not try to improve and may even go so far as to try to belittle other drivers that want to improve.

I happen to be in the first group.

When I was going out with my observer we would do a section and then stop for a debrief. We would be quite critical of other road users where we had seen poor road behaviour. This is an important part of you development as an advanced driver. Once you pass the test the next goal is to become an observer and pass the skills you have gained onto others.

And yeah, sometimes we do have a laugh at the other road users. Advanced drivers and riders do think they are better than the vast majority of other road users. And the simple fact is that they are. They are more considerate that non advanced road users and they are also a lot less likely to be involved in an incident, this fact is reflected by the fact that Advanced Drivers get discounts on their insurance. For example, in the UK I got a 15% discount off my insurance for simply being a member of IAM. Now I have passed my test this will increase to 20 or 30%. Insurance companies do not give discounts unless their actuaries give them a damn good reason for it.

Even though advanced drivers or riders know they are better than the majority of other road users they still know they can still learn. In my IAM group we have a section for those that have passed the test. This section is designed to further increase you skills. The learning simply never stops.

It is actually a shame that you are dismissing this simply because of a single experience of someone who, TBH, I would have trouble listening to. I have direct experience of about 20 people in my IAM group and none of them are like that.

At the end of the day it is your choice and your loss. If you are willing to give it another go then you will never see the point.

MrP

here.from.day.1 · 13-07-2007 1:52am

MrPudding wrote:

So you are doing 100kph a the guy behind you is tailgating you do you speed up to give yourself some room? So now you are doing 120, he is still tailgating you. What do you do now? 140? 160? Are what if you are simply driving at the speed limit and there are some tight bends coming up? Do you want to take the bends at a speed you are not comfortable with simply because you think you might irritate the driver behind you?

You should drive with respect and accomodation for other road users but not at the expense of your own comfort and safety.

I am new to driving on the road. I have been able to drive for many years but only recently got my licence. (Im 21) This is my pet hate. I cant stand people driving so close behind me. Im not a nervous driver and I do feel im very cautious to all the "muppets"

but I really do feel like im irritating them and they are trying to goud me into breaking the speed limits when they do this.

As for advanced driving I can see Daraghs point - he detests this method for some people to use the course as a way to enlarge their "driving penis"? - "Oh look at me im an "advanced driver" im so much better than you," but it sounds like he had a bad experience with one instructor and he shouldnt base his opinions on this. I myself do think this looks like a worthwhile cause. I mean anything that can make people more aware/curtious/prepared, even in the smallest amount could save a life.

Thanks

*Wanders back to youtube or some other source to try and clearly learn how heel-toe (throttle clicking???) works and is executed, and if it is worth doing. And also to learn the benefits of engine braking Vs brake braking.*

Darragh29 · 13-07-2007 6:58pm

here.from.day.1 wrote:

I am new to driving on the road. I have been able to drive for many years but only recently got my licence. (Im 21) This is my pet hate. I cant stand people driving so close behind me. Im not a nervous driver and I do feel im very cautious to all the "muppets" but I really do feel like im irritating them and they are trying to goud me into breaking the speed limits when they do this.

As for advanced driving I can see Daraghs point - he detests this method for some people to use the course as a way to enlarge their "driving penis"? - "Oh look at me im an "advanced driver" im so much better than you," but it sounds like he had a bad experience with one instructor and he shouldnt base his opinions on this. I myself do think this looks like a worthwhile cause. I mean anything that can make people more aware/curtious/prepared, even in the smallest amount could save a life.

Thanks

Just because there are loads of poor drivers on the road, this doesn't make anyone who is not a poor driver an "advanced" driver, as the IAM seem to believe. Despite what the Insurance companies would have you believe, there are many safe, competent drivers on the road who have been driving safely for years without needing a badge from the IAM. If I was driving as the IAM told me to, over analysing everyone and everything around me, waiting for my brake pedal to fail at any minute, spending an hour driving around with someone else judging how they drive and how I drive, I'd have a fu*kin' nervous breakdown!

MrPudding · 13-07-2007 10:28pm

Darragh29 wrote:

If I was driving as the IAM told me to, over analysing everyone and everything around me, waiting for my brake pedal to fail at any minute, spending an hour driving around with someone else judging how they drive and how I drive, I'd have a fu*kin' nervous breakdown!

Don't worry about it, not everyone can do it.

MrP

FiannaGym.com · 17-07-2007 11:14am

Darragh, the point about IAM is that your not self evaluating. Which it seems you are.

So you might have your eyes opened if you do their course or even read their book.

Importantly, you have quoted an "IAM instructor" who has been talking rubbish and I would question if the guy actually is one. Anyway the conversation here about engine breaking just goes to show why you need to attend the course or read the book.

When having a discussion about a particular techinique, a good driver (one who applies the basics habitually) should begin with:
"What type of car are we talking about?"
"What is the goal of the breaking?"
"What are the conditions?"
and so on. I don't think you asked any of these questions.

So it could be that one person is talking about breaking in a Stiletto and the other in a hybrid and the other an articulated truck and so on.

On another point, if you bothered to read the IAM book, for your own benifit, rather than get defencive over what some guy said, you would know that the IAM absolutely recommend slowing down with the breaks.

Anyway, what makes IAM stuff "advanced" is the amount of effort you put into it. Driving by your recommendations (which are really good) is the basics done correctly, and for most people that is spot on, safe and effective. For others (like myself) they wish to engage themselves completely in driving. They concentrate harder, practice more and study driving to a higher level than most people. More than people who "just" drive safely and respectfully, that is what makes it "advanced".

For me, the observation aspect of IAM is what is most important. Being a cyclist (part of the most vunerable group on the road) I found I had already exceeded the IAM advice. However, when I talk to other people, even very good other drivers, I find their driving can go to a whole new level, even if it is only the observation aspect.

As for the particular techniques, for the most part, yes, thay are basics. But if you were and advanced driver you wouldnt be too concerned about them.

Safe driving everyone!

Peace

Advanced Driving Test

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