Dabbling in 'black' arts

ladybirdirl

So I've been reading a few recent threads which speak of things like conjuring a demon and werewolves etc and it got me thinking

Does anyone actually have any concrete experience of 'dabbling' or indeed fully participating in any ritual/ceremony/spell casting from a 'dark' art.

Let me be quite clear I mean absolutely NO DISRESPECT to anyone's belief, it just strikes me that there's lots of advice being given out and I'm wondering what are we basing that on, other than the archetypal attitudes/fears we all have about these things.

SO does anyone have any experiences they would like to share?

For myself - I have no such experience

Ladybird

witchywoman

hi, i think that many people are confusing alternative beliefs with the black arts, example wicca, paganism etc.ive met a couple of people who claim to practice voodoo etc, but in reality, i imagine that its just wishful thinking on their part!!!:)

Sapien

witchywoman wrote:

hi, i think that many people are confusing alternative beliefs with the black arts, example wicca, paganism etc.ive met a couple of people who claim to practice voodoo etc, but in reality, i imagine that its just wishful thinking on their part!!!:)

*ducks under the table*

ladybirdirl

Completely agree with you Withcywoman - that's the purpose of my question - to seperate fact from fiction:D

Nevyn

Define 'Dark Arts' and lets see if you can manage it with out referencing JK Rowling.

6th

witchywoman wrote:

hi, i think that many people are confusing alternative beliefs with the black arts, example wicca, paganism etc.ive met a couple of people who claim to practice voodoo etc, but in reality, i imagine that its just wishful thinking on their part!!!

Do you think that voodoo is not a valid or practiced religion/belief system?

Check out this thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054922672

Sapien

ladybirdirl wrote:

Completely agree with you Withcywoman - that's the purpose of my question - to seperate fact from fiction:D

Not to be facetious or obtuse, but what do you expect is fiction, and what do you, at present, believe to be credible.

And yes, as Thaed mentions, the term "Dark" or "Black Arts" is extremely loaded. Do you mean any kind of magic, or specifically magic you perceive to have some kind of evil aspect?

Do you agree with witchywoman's apparent impression that Voodoo is "dark"?

po0k

Thaedydal wrote:

Define 'Dark Arts' and lets see if you can manage it with out referencing JK Rowling.

Cerebral beatdown!

Steyr

So has anybody ever met a demon..?

Aisling&M

I have never actively invited a negative experience but have encountered a couple of 'tricky' spirits. On first 'appearance' you would think they were 'evil' but I've learned that isn't always the case. The only 'darkness' or 'evil' I've encountered is that of the soul, both in the living and the after-living.

If it's not going off topic, or if it is and you will permit me to say this, true good/evil, light/dark etc are not things I have found to be separate from the soul. They are essences within us that some choose to use ritual to re-acquaint themselves with the power of either or both and attract similar energies from the world around them.

kshiel

I think this one is really hard to define, as one person's perception of evil is not anothers. I think with the other thread "conjure a demon" it was clear that he/she was looking for something he/she saw as evil.

Ladybird are you asking has anyone called upon or conjured something to use against someone/something for the purpose of harm, or maybe accidently called upon someone/something that caused them harm?

I haven't dabbled in anything like that but have come accross negative energy and entity through been un-educated and through ignorance in a situation. But I would also like to say that I think sometimes we can jump to quick to believing that something is negative or evil through this ignorance or mis-guided perception of what is Good and what is Evil.

ladybirdirl

I guess my question is all encompassing - I don't in fact really know what would be considered 'dark' (you're right Thaed - JK Rowling was right on the tip of my tongue;) )

Do I consider voodoo dark - don't know enough about it to comment

Kshiel - I suppose I'm asking about both in fact. I would hope that people don't conjure/experience things ot harm others and I realise that sounds niaive and I'm ok with that but I would also wonder if people find these things by accident or by other encounters as Aisling suggests. You're absolutely right though one person's perception is not another's

Sapien you do raise a very valid point as to what's bad but the simplest division I can think of is where someone does conjure/do something to harm another. I'm open to suggestions/opinions though

Nevyn

I would want to know what you personally would consider 'dark arts';
cos for some people it is anything that could be considered magical or related to any forum of witchcraft or divination regardless of who was doing it and for what ends.

Voodoo is seen as dark because it is visceral and deals in sex and death and excess
and sure no good upstanding moral Christian would have anything to do with such things.

ladybirdirl

Thaedydal wrote:

I would want to know what you personally would consider 'dark arts';
cos for some people it is anything that could be considered magical or related to any forum of witchcraft or divination regardless of who was doing it and for what ends.

Thaed, I don't know is the very honest answer. As I said above the only thing I can think is where someone sets out to do another harm for no reason.

I think I see where you're coming from re the magical/divination/witchcraft being seen as dark and no I would definetly NOT be in that camp.

I really don't have a lot of knowledge in the area hence my question

Ladybird

Nevyn

I don't think this is really that suited to this forum but anyway.

ladybirdirl wrote:

Does anyone actually have any concrete experience of 'dabbling' or indeed fully participating in any ritual/ceremony/spell casting

Yes I do, I am a witch and use various magical practices some for personal use and some with others, some for religious reasons and observances and for other reasons if there is a need.

ladybirdirl wrote:

from a 'dark' art.

'dark' or 'black' is a moral judgment call,
I will say that I would not use 'the craft' or 'the arts' such things or with out just cause or with out doing what practical things first or in tandem.

I have had 'the arts' used against me and have dealt with it and the fall out afterwards.

ladybirdirl wrote:

Let me be quite clear I mean absolutely NO DISRESPECT to anyone's belief, it just strikes me that there's lots of advice being given out and I'm wondering what are we basing that on, other than the archetypal attitudes/fears we all have about these things.

If someone wants to willingly undertake something I think is daft and a danger to themselves well then I'll warn them but people have free will and it is their wryd and some people only learn by experience.

I will say that they need to learn more about it and them self and give a few suggestions as to limiting any fall out and make them aware of what factors can come into play and after that it is not my responsibility.

I keep an eye on this forum due to such threads like the deamon one popping up. Before this forum became so popular most of the occult threads were started in the paganism forum.

Sapien

Steyr wrote:

So has anybody ever met a demon..?

A few.

ladybird wrote:

Sapien you do raise a very valid point as to what's bad but the simplest division I can think of is where someone does conjure/do something to harm another. I'm open to suggestions/opinions though

I have summoned and created some scary things, and performed magic that could have worked at other people's expense, but rarely at the same time. I have never cursed anybody, per se.

ladybird wrote:

Does anyone actually have any concrete experience of 'dabbling' or indeed fully participating in any ritual/ceremony/spell casting from a 'dark' art.

There are few magickal paradigms that self-describe as "dark", and of those that do few would intend dark to mean evil, rather chthonic. The exceptions would be esoteric forms of Satanism which are, for the most part, complete bosh.

Stoner

Thaedydal, I guess you are right in all you have said.
I wouldn't know what to call a lot of the activities that are discussed here. From my point of view and maybe even from ladybirds ? black arts have always been something that is very interesting and there is a label stuck on them that we just use without thinking about it, and people want to know if there is substance behind the stories.
I guess by dark we can mean possibly difficult to see and unknown and you'd have to agree that stories of secret meetings in the Dublin mountains etc do get peoples attention, I know that some religions were driven to these secret rituals, but that's is what makes them so interesting.

I guess it's similar to Chief Wiggums. "What IS your fascination with my forbidden closet of mysteries?"

I think that these forums and your open willingness to discuss things makes it easier for everyone to understand.

Nevyn

All of the above aside the paranormal for me is instresting as I have an instrest in how engery can make it's self manifest and if it is possible to scientifically measure and record it.

and that side of things seems to be lacking in the forum of late.

witchywoman

6th wrote:

Do you think that voodoo is not a valid or practiced religion/belief system?hi 6th, i do know that voodoo is a belief system , however,my view of it is that it is something that instantly comes to mind when dark arts are mentioned, i mean no disrespect to anyone.:)

Check out this thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054922672

ladybirdirl

Thanks Stoner - think you hit the nail on the head completely there. For me it's exactly that- a lot of people talk about 'dark' but what is in fact 'dark'

And Thaed I'm also attempting to open up something you mentioned - if something is 'dark' (for want of a better word) can it be measured and scientifically discussed.

Thanks Thaed for being so open re your practices:)

Ladybird

Nevyn

Why would it being dark be a factor in it being possible to measure rather then those which are not maligned ?

ladybirdirl

oh it wouldn't necessarily - I just wonder would 'dark' possibly be more measurable because it might be more intense & tangible, then again maybe not.

As I said I claim no real knowledge or understanding hence the question.

Red Hand

ladybirdirl wrote:

Thanks Stoner - think you hit the nail on the head completely there. For me it's exactly that- a lot of people talk about 'dark' but what is in fact 'dark'

And Thaed I'm also attempting to open up something you mentioned - if something is 'dark' (for want of a better word) can it be measured and scientifically discussed.

Thanks Thaed for being so open re your practices:)

Ladybird

If something becomes scientifically measureable, (and thus, falsifiable) it would naturally move out of the Paranormal/Religion category, and become just another field of science. Religion and "the paranormal" thrive on unprovable speculation, hence are very popular.

ladybirdirl

Hmm....see where you're coming from, not sure that I agree

Ladybird

Sonnenblumen

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote:

If something becomes scientifically measureable, (and thus, falsifiable) it would naturally move out of the Paranormal/Religion category, and become just another field of science. Religion and "the paranormal" thrive on unprovable speculation, hence are very popular.

science= a given set of circumstances will always give same result. That's proof not false.

On the otherhand, religion (including dark variants) are nothing more than people struggling for better times. Religion particularly potent where sometimes ignorance prevails, but sometimes also fear of the unknown. Dark practices on the otherhand tend to be maleovolent and appeal to freaks and non-conformists.

Why inspires/encourages some to be maleovolent is to be condemned.

I'm glad Alistair Crowley died how he did.

Sapien

Sonnenblumen wrote:

science= a given set of circumstances will always give same result. That's proof not false.

On the otherhand, religion (including dark variants) are nothing more than people struggling for better times. Religion particularly potent where sometimes ignorance prevails, but sometimes also fear of the unknown. Dark practices on the otherhand tend to be maleovolent and appeal to freaks and non-conformists.

Why inspires/encourages some to be maleovolent is to be condemned.

I'm glad Alistair Crowley died how he did.

The "dark arts" being discussed on this thread don't necessarily have very much in common with religion.

I realise that the conception that magickal thinking only flourishes in ignorance and superstition is common and generally unquestioned these days. You must realise though, that from the point of view of people here who have studied aspects of the occult, you are ignorant, and your condemnation of "dark arts" akin to superstition in terms of its invalidity.

Or am I wrong? Have you studied in the occult?

Sonnenblumen

Sapien wrote:

The "dark arts" being discussed on this thread don't necessarily have very much in common with religion.

I realise that the conception that magickal thinking only flourishes in ignorance and superstition is common and generally unquestioned these days. You must realise though, that from the point of view of people here who have studied aspects of the occult, you are ignorant, and your condemnation of "dark arts" akin to superstition in terms of its invalidity.

Or am I wrong? Have you studied in the occult?

Enough to convince me you know very little of very much.

Sapien

Sonnenblumen wrote:

Enough to convince me you know very little of very much.

I'm not sure what that means.

Spyral

that statements means that you know a little bit about a lot of different things, as opposed to one or two things in great detail

Sapien

Spyral wrote:

that statements means that you know a little bit about a lot of different things, as opposed to one or two things in great detail

Is that what you meant, Sonnenblumen? And what could have given that impression?

Stoner

This is one confusing exchange, the "black" arts indeed


Knows and Knows Not
He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool; avoid him.
He who knows not and knows that he knows not is a student; teach him.
He who knows and knows not that he knows is asleep; wake him.
He who knows and knows that he knows is a wise man; follow him.

He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool. Shun him.
He who knows not, and knows that he knows not is simple. Teach him.
He who knows, and knows not that he knows, is asleep. Wake him.
He who knows, and knows that he knows is wise. Follow him