Why is LoI failing to attract fans.

GuanYin

Now, the big question should be "Why don't we compete with the english and scottish leagues" and many people have asked it on boards.

There are plenty of reasons. We don't have a full professional league is the first and foremost issue - clubs don't have the money to compete with scottish teams, we don't have the same level of support for players and our football association is, by and large a shambles. We don't have quality stadia, facilities or resources - we don't even have a national stadium.

Soccer teams are successful based on two things, community and business. People support the community clubs because the clubs reach out to the community, they actively engage in activities that pull the public in. The community factor includes families of course, and much like religion, the tendency is to support the predominant club in your community/family. Secondly, the big clubs market well. Soccer is a business, every EPL team recognises that, even sunderland, who had supporters when they ran their business badly. Soccer is a business and your teams are products. If you can't sell your product to the punters, it's your fault, not the peoples fault, its YOUR fault. It's exactly the same with LoI. The product their selling is inferior to the a very local product of much superior quality. Or if not inferior, the business and marketing strategy makes it seem so.

That aside, there is more to it than just money. Look at the geographical distribution of teams from the Irish league. 11/20 teams come from the "Dublin Commuter Zone" - with the remaining 9 teams covering 3 provences. Look closer and see that most of those 11 teams are in the top flight. How do create a level of community support more than 5,000 fans strong when there aren't that many soccer supporters in the locale? How does a 15 year old from Nenagh or Youghal get to a match? So these kids pick another sport, or watch the PL on tv and so do their friends and the eL loses fans by the thousands like this.

In Dublin, you have the opposite problem. Too many clubs competing for too few supporters. Lets not forget the large amount of soccer fans in Dublin that don't come from Dublin, so you only have the local community. Unlike the rest of Ireland, communting to matches isn't a problem. Someone from Stillorgan could quite easily make it to Dalymount for a match. But as it is, the area is saturated with maybe 3-4 teams he/she could go to. *IF* there were only 2-3 teams in Dublin, then *perhaps* we might see more support at them, we may see them financially sound enough to build something akin to Celtic Park and yes maybe Irish clubs as big as Celtic or Rangers. As it is, geographically, too few fans spread too thin.

Soccer is built on the fans, the fans make communities, the fans support communities and as I said soccer teams are part of communities. In Ireland you either have soccer clubs that cover too wide an area or too small an area. Although I don't think at this stage it would work, the only way Irish Soccer will ever compete is if the league was expanded, professionalised and financed. Hell, even sell the rights to sky if it improves the game (or is that already done?).

So what are we left with? I'd say the way to go is to invest heavily at grass roots level, expanding the leagues, maybe by another division or two and having more clubs outside the Dublin area. To be honest, I think there are too many Dublin based clubs - if one or two were to re-locate, perhaps Dublin soccer would have a better chance.

Finally, Irish infrastructure would need to change, people would need means of getting to and from stadia, we'd need better stadia, better facilities, and more money inthe game itself.

As it is, with the countries infrastructure, the way the clubs market themselves to the community and the way LoI is sold as a product, the League of Ireland Soccer is set up to fail.

therecklessone

psi wrote:

How does a 15 year old from Nenagh or Youghal get to a match? So these kids pick another sport, or watch the PL on tv and so do their friends and the eL loses fans by the thousands like this.

Alternatively he could watch any of the following* domestic games on TV...why is it that the assumption is attend domestic games in the flesh or take to the armchair to watch the EPL? I ask that as one of the first to defend the right of fans to choose to support a foreign side BTW...

*thanks foot.ie

psi wrote:

the way the clubs market themselves to the community and the way LoI is sold as a product, the League of Ireland Soccer is set up to fail.

I've been saying for ages that the domestic game needs to target the next generation of supporters, the 20-somethings and older are in the main lost to the game. Grab kids and teenagers now and convince them that football needs to be experienced in the flesh. I'd start by offering free tickets to games for local schools and schoolboy clubs, running coaching sessions like the GAA's summer schools (which are hugely popular) with the emphasis on the domestic game providing the opportunities to local kids, not a dusting of celebrity faces who earn their crust across the water.

Back on topic...

Hated my brother, so ManYoo were out. Most of my school were Liverpool, so chose to stand out...picked Spurs, probably because of Ardiles and Villa, though two FA Cups and a UEFA Cup in four years helped...:D UEFA Cup final 2nd leg against Anderlecht in 1984 sealed it for me, a great game with an amazing atmosphere obvious from ITVs live coverage...the sight of the Shelf and Park Lane swaying mesmerised a 6 year old up way past his bed time, the crowd's reaction to the unfortunate Danny Thomas who missed his peno in the shootout still gives me goosebumps, chanting "one Danny Thomas" as Eidur Gudjohnsen's dad stepped up to take Anderlecht's last peno. Magic stuff.

Unfortunately for the domestic game, it wasn't until an FAI Cup final during Rovers' 3 in a row in the 80s that I was exposed to Irish soccer on TV, and not until the early 90s before I started regularly attending Tolka Park to see Shels. By then my heart was won by Spurs, so it will always be Spurs first Shels second.

GuanYin

therecklessone wrote:

Alternatively he could watch any of the following* domestic games on TV...why is it that the assumption is attend domestic games in the flesh or take to the armchair to watch the EPL? I ask that as one of the first to defend the right of fans to choose to support a foreign side BTW...

True, but in fairness most people who only watch the games do so because they can't afford the time or money to regularly cross the water to attend. I think ideally, all able bodied fans would like to make it to their teams game and in terms of LoI they really want and need the revenue from fans at matches. Plus, of course, you have the support for the team on the pitch.

Attractive Nun

seansouth wrote:

All I want to say, to all Irish people who support teams in other countries, nice one, thanks very much. Irish football is dieing on it's knees. You get what you deserve from the FAI and the National Team.

Maybe if there wasn't this attitude of "support the LOI for the good of Irish football", people might consider it. Seriously, time and again on this board LOI fans preach that we should be 'doing our bit' for Irish football by supporting Derry City or Bohs or whoever. You're making it out to sound like a chore, that you are martyring yourselves for the rest of us, and that we are being selfish by following the EPL. The LOI should understand that people are self-interested and lazy - by and large we follow football being it entertains us, as someone said it appeals to our romantic nature. Like it or not, the reason Irish people are so obsessed with the Premiership is because Sky does a good job promoting it as entertainment, as drama.

I can't remember why I started supporting Man United - it was probably because my friends did - but it was the iconography of Eric Cantona, Andrei Kanchelskis, Lee Sharpe (he was my favourite, randomly) and David Beckham that built a genuine affinity for the club somewhere inside me. It's not rational and it wouldn't be anywhere close to as enjoyable if it were. Whenever my young cousin comes to the house, he spends half his time on YouTube watching videos of Robinho, Raul and David Beckham. I don't know how he came to be a Real Madrid fan but I'd be surprised now if he wasn't hooked on La Liga, and probably Real, for as long as he's hooked on football. In the modern world, that's how you build a fanbase. Expose kids to the fantasies and superficiality of football, and they'll soon understand the beauty and complexity of it - pretty soon you'll have a football fan, or at least a fan of whatever league contains the team in which their loyalties lie. The LOI don't seem to be able to do that, partly for external reasons and partly by their own fault.

I'm sure LOI has a lot to offer football fans - most significantly the opportunity to see regular, live football in person. But, as far as I can see, it has done next to nothing to attempt to appeal to the irrationalities of the football supporter. That's partly why it's not doing well, and it's a shame, but you can't expect people to just spontaneously start supporting a league without having that initial exposure to the romance of football. It's for that reason that most of Ireland, myself included, just couldn't be arsed with the League of Ireland.

gimmick

psi wrote:

True, but in fairness most people who only watch the games do so because they can't afford the time or money to regularly cross the water to attend.

Are you suggesting that the only reason that people go to eL football is because they cant afford the 'real thing' of going to England for a game? If so, you are horribly deluded.

For the record, I am a season ticket holder for Cork City, not becauise I cant afford one for Leyton Orient or Liverpool, but because I want to be. I go to both Orient and Liverpool when i can, but I prefer Orient to Liverpool, and City to Orient, simply because I have more of an attachment with City, an attachment I cannot even fathom having with either of 'my' English teams. Another reason being is that the athmosphere in grounds in England is down the toilet in general lately (having said that i have not been to a big European or top of the table game).

Now my reasons for supporting these teams. Cork City is a no brainer, Turners Cross is 2 miles from my parents house, about 5 miles from my own house, They are my local professional club. No explanation needed there.

Liverpool. Im 28. My interest in football started in the early 1980s. Kids support the ebstest team. Thats that. Dont considering myself much of a supporter anymore as I rarely get to Anfield.

Reasoning for Orient is tenuos. I was in London a few years ago, wanted to go to a game. Orient was the easist to get to. Met a bunch of lads at Orient Vs Chester who were heading to Cork a few weeks later for City Vs Rovers. Got friendly with them, and travel over a few times a season.

GuanYin

gimmick wrote:

Are you suggesting that the only reason that people go to eL football is because they cant afford the 'real thing' of going to England for a game? If so, you are horribly deluded.

If you can show me where at any stage I suggested that I'd be amazed.
:rolleyes:

If you took the time to read my post and its reference post properly, you'd see I was talking about TV games (as per the reckless one saying people could just watch on TV). I'm suggesting that for most football fans TV is a second-best way to watch their team. Ergo, although it's nice having eL on the TV, people would be more likely to support teams they see in the flesh.

Benedict XVI

psi wrote:

That aside, there is more to it than just money. Look at the geographical distribution of teams from the Irish league. 11/20 teams come from the "Dublin Commuter Zone" - with the remaining 9 teams covering 3 provences. Look closer and see that most of those 11 teams are in the top flight. How do create a level of community support more than 5,000 fans strong when there aren't that many soccer supporters in the locale? How does a 15 year old from Nenagh or Youghal get to a match? So these kids pick another sport, or watch the PL on tv and so do their friends and the eL loses fans by the thousands like this.

In Dublin, you have the opposite problem. Too many clubs competing for too few supporters. Lets not forget the large amount of soccer fans in Dublin that don't come from Dublin, so you only have the local community. Unlike the rest of Ireland, communting to matches isn't a problem. Someone from Stillorgan could quite easily make it to Dalymount for a match. But as it is, the area is saturated with maybe 3-4 teams he/she could go to. *IF* there were only 2-3 teams in Dublin, then *perhaps* we might see more support at them, we may see them financially sound enough to build something akin to Celtic Park and yes maybe Irish clubs as big as Celtic or Rangers. As it is, geographically, too few fans spread too thin.

I have been syaing for ages on these boards that the whole league should be re-orged and clubs be merged and new ones setup to give a better geographical spread.
It will never happen, people are far too afraid of the word 'franchise' !!!

psi wrote:

How does a 15 year old from Nenagh or Youghal get to a match? So these kids pick another sport, or watch the PL on tv and so do their friends and the eL loses fans by the thousands like this.

therecklessone wrote:

Alternatively he could watch any of the following* domestic games on TV...why is it that the assumption is attend domestic games in the flesh or take to the armchair to watch the EPL? I ask that as one of the first to defend the right of fans to choose to support a foreign side BTW...

The LOI audience share will always be poor as long as the main highlights show continues to be broadcast at 11.30pm on TV3 on a Monday night.

It's all about marketingh and the FAI\LOI don't have a clue.

_blank_

Benedict XVI wrote:

clubs be merged

ROFL.

What happens to the people who already support LoI clubs? Who do they then support? I could not and would not support Shelhemians.

The way forward is NOT to alienate those people that already support the national league.

GuanYin

seansouth wrote:

ROFL.

What happens to the people who already support LoI clubs? Who do they then support? I could not and would not support Shelhemians.

The way forward is NOT to alienate those people that already support the national league.

Thats a perfectly fair comment, but the fact still remains that the LoI in heavily imbalanced in terms of club locations. Dublin just isn't big enough for the amount of clubs in the Dublin areas, especially seeing as most of the people in the satellite town areas are relocated from elsewhere in Ireland and Dublin. The Dublin teams are simply to numerous and too close for any one of them to do well.

That and the fact that the LoI as a product, at present simply does not appeal to the punters. You're ire those supporting clubs abroad, doesn't take into account the fact that the LoI clubs to sweet FA (excuse the pun) to actually be a part of the community and make people notice and gain interest.

As a staunch LoI fan, do you see these problems with the league and do you not think the onus is on the LoI to reform their set up in order to get people interested?

Personally, I believe that a 30 team league of 2 or three divisions with representation from each county, naybe 2/3 teams from Dublin and perhaps representations from each University would be something that might work. People from, say Meath, would be far more likely to support a Meath Soccer team than Kildare, Dundalk or a Dublin team.

Existing fans want interest in the LoI, but obviously something isn't working for the people who haven't jumped on, hence they look to the well marketed EPL. If the LoI fans want more home interest, they're probably going to have to be the ones to compromise. They can't have it all their own way and its up to the LoI to sell their product, not up to the people to invest in something they see as inferior or unworthy.

_blank_

psi wrote:

Thats a perfectly fair comment, but the fact still remains that the LoI in heavily imbalanced in terms of club locations. Dublin just isn't big enough for the amount of clubs in the Dublin areas, especially seeing as most of the people in the satellite town areas are relocated from elsewhere in Ireland and Dublin. The Dublin teams are simply to numerous and too close for any one of them to do well.

Did you watch the video I posted in another thread from 1967? (it's gone from YT now btw). Dalymount was full of people. Fans of Shels and Bohs. At a time when there was Pats, Drums and Pegasus in Dublin. Dublin IS big enough. More than eighty thousand Dublin people want in to Croke Park every weekend the Dubs are playing in the summer, from all over the city and county. I guarantee most of them also have an interest in soccer aswell, as much as the GAA would tell us otherwise. Pats, Bohs, Rovers, UCD and Shels should be able to grab half of these at least. That's eight thousand each. Nothing like that number attend games. They have in the past though, and more.

psi wrote:

That and the fact that the LoI as a product, at present simply does not appeal to the punters.

This one could go round and round all day and night tbh. The 'product' is bad because there is no money being invested in it. It is either a. going to Britain in the form of investment, b. FAI spending on whatever it is they spend their money on.

The punters need to realise that they cannot expect to see Premiership standard soccer at poor LoI clubs. The only way the clubs are going to stop being poor is if ordinary, everyday people start attending games and give us some money. It is that simple.

psi wrote:

You're ire those supporting clubs abroad, doesn't take into account the fact that the LoI clubs to sweet FA (excuse the pun) to actually be a part of the community and make people notice and gain interest.

Hmm, I'd agree with you to a point on this one. But what has to be mentioned is the fact that a certain amount of apathy is there with the Irish public in general when it comes to Irish football. In fact clubs are doing stuff in communities. Small works. Only last week I saw two schoolboy teams in Tolka Park watching our match. It is starting. I assume the other clubs are doing the same.

psi wrote:

As a staunch LoI fan, do you see these problems with the league and do you not think the onus is on the LoI to reform their set up in order to get people interested?

Believe me, I don't live in some rose garden where everything LoI related is perfect. Ha, the opposite in fact. I know the league needs to improve. But it can't improve without people taking an interest. It's a vicious circle with people. They want a better standard and set up, but that needs money. Where does the money come from if people don't care?

psi wrote:

Personally, I believe that a 30 team league of 2 or three divisions with representation from each county,

:eek: Are you mad? The league can hardly support 22 teams in 2 divisions as it is. You want to add more? Look at Cork for example. It has one team, but how many times has that team folded and come back again. Cork Hibernian, Cork Celtic. Look at what has just happened in Limerick.

Let's get away from Dublin for a minute

All of our major population centres have a team. Limerick, Galway, Sligo, Kilkenny, Athlone, Cork and Louth has two (One moving into Co Meath soon). Waterford, Wexford, Longford. These teams haven't the support either. Longford look like they will go out of business completely. And you want to add even more teams who will exist precariously? Seriously?

psi wrote:

Maybe 2/3 teams from Dublin and perhaps representations from each University would be something that might work..

So which Dublin teams do you get rid of, and please explain to me what happens to these clubs with over a hundred years of history, and their fans?

I'm not having a dig here, this is the one point in my whole post I'd like you to address. It's nearly the same point as the previous poster, Benedict XVI, made.

As I said I wouldn't support Shelhemians, or North Dublin United, or anything like it. Neither would any other self respecting LoI fan. The Milton Keynes Dons experience speaks for itself tbh.

psi wrote:

People from, say Meath, would be far more likely to support a Meath Soccer team than Kildare, Dundalk or a Dublin team.

You'd think people in Kilkenny, Athlone and Longford would be the same wouldn't you.

Who is going to finance these eight new teams, plus the already established twenty-two. Your three division thirty team dream is very noble, but last time I checked money doesn't grow on trees, especially not LoI trees.

psi wrote:

Existing fans want interest in the LoI, but obviously something isn't working for the people who haven't jumped on, hence they look to the well marketed EPL.

People expect the same product they get from Sky in their living room when they go to LoI grounds. This can't happen until there is money put into the LoI.

psi wrote:

If the LoI fans want more home interest, they're probably going to have to be the ones to compromise.

Compromise what?

psi wrote:

They can't have it all their own way and its up to the LoI to sell their product, not up to the people to invest in something they see as inferior or unworthy.

I don't want it all my ow way, or anything like it. I want people to support the national league. I want the FAI to get the finger out and start running it properly. That will bring investment. Nothing else.




Now, just a quick request. This thread isn't supposed to be about the LoI, is there any chance you could break off the LoI posts and stick them into a new thread?

_blank_

The Muppet wrote:

Does supporting an Irish League team make you more Irish than an Irish citizen who supports a British/European team?

Some team like Glentoran, Linfield or Portadown?:p

The Muppet

seansouth wrote:

Some team like Glentoran, Linfield or Portadown?:p

Is that a yes or a no.:p

mikemac

My local club are Shelbourne but I've never been to see them.

Why? I reckon 15 euro is far too expensive for a ticket. Now maybe there are cheaper tickets but the sign on the wall states 15 euro.
I know that a match in Croke Park can easily be double this amount but would it be possible to halve the ticket price in the hope that it would double the attendance? It just seems overpriced to me.

I've seen one good idea from used by non-league clubs in England.
The club sends letters to residents around the ground, say 20,000 households.
It offers free tickets to people who reply. The tickets can be used for some low-key game so there isn't much chance of lost revenue and it's a good way to introduce people to their local club.

_blank_

The Muppet wrote:

Is that a yes or a no.:p

Of course, Irishness is a state of mind. Born here, have Irish parents, or be an American who's ancestor fled the famine and you can be Irish. Drink green guinness on Paddies Day if you want. Or simply have an Irish surname, something like, say, Cascarino.

The club you choose to support does not, in my mind, signify ones level of Irishness. Just to distance myself from those that do think that.

micmclo wrote:

My local club are Shelbourne but I've never been to see them.

It just seems overpriced to me.

Ah here we have it. On what evidence are you basing the 'overpricing' then?

Please, explain.

I've edited the post to quickly add this, between the stars.

****
This strikes me as the same kind of mentality as those people who say 'Shure the League of Oirland is shoite in anyway, that's why I don't go'

When they've neber been to an LoI game in their lives.
****

micmclo wrote:

I've seen one good idea from used by non-league clubs in England.
The club sends letters to residents around the ground, say 20,000 households.
It offers free tickets to people who reply. The tickets can be used for some low-key game so there isn't much chance of lost revenue and it's a good way to introduce people to their local club.

Not a bad idea, but what about people like me, who don't live that close to the ground, but go every week.

Do I continue to pay my fifteen euro, which I see as a fair price btw, while others get to go for half that?

Jonny Arson

micmclo wrote:

My local club are Shelbourne but I've never been to see them.

Why? I reckon 15 euro is far too expensive for a ticket. Now maybe there are cheaper tickets but the sign on the wall states 15 euro.
I know that a match in Croke Park can easily be double this amount but would it be possible to halve the ticket price in the hope that it would double the attendance? It just seems overpriced to me.

€15 is a perfectly reasonable price for any LOI club to charge, you pay about 3 times to see most premiership clubs!

if Shels (or any LOI club) did half their prices they would probably go out of business due to the pathetic numbers going to LOI matches, knowing Shels current financial situation I am very happy to pay my €15. I would rather my club to put money into marketing rather than chop their prices when they wont receive any return on it.

what you are forgetting is Season Tickets. At Shels a season ticket is €200 for an adult working out at about €11 per match - great value if you do regularly attend matches - similar prices apply to most LOI clubs

also don't forget most clubs have concessions for OAPs, student and children, including substantial reductions on season tickets too - €100 for kids, students and OAPs I believe - just over €5 per match

the LOI is too expensive is a completely non existent argument but since you've never attended a match your point has no substance

SectionF

micmclo wrote:

My local club are Shelbourne but I've never been to see them.

Why? I reckon 15 euro is far too expensive for a ticket.

How tight is that? :eek:
If that is the only reason for not supporting Irish football then you really should talk to a career coach.

Incidentally, about all this talk of being more or less 'Irish', whatever that means these days. It's not about nationality and nationalism. Football-hating EPL lovers like to throw that in to confuse the issue. It's just about going to live football where you live and giving your support to your club.

So, asking the questions about Linfield or Glens is missing the point entirely. Those supporters are interested in real, flesh-and-blood football, played by real people in front of real crowds, without the need of an oligarch or franchise bandit.

€15! Gimme a break!

GuanYin

seansouth wrote:

Did you watch the video I posted in another thread from 1967? (it's gone from YT now btw). Dalymount was full of people. Fans of Shels and Bohs. At a time when there was Pats, Drums and Pegasus in Dublin. Dublin IS big enough. More than eighty thousand Dublin people want in to Croke Park every weekend the Dubs are playing in the summer, from all over the city and county. I guarantee most of them also have an interest in soccer aswell, as much as the GAA would tell us otherwise. Pats, Bohs, Rovers, UCD and Shels should be able to grab half of these at least. That's eight thousand each. Nothing like that number attend games. They have in the past though, and more.

That was before multi-channel TV and live games and the premiership for that matter. It was also before Hand, Giles and Charlton.

This one could go round and round all day and night tbh. The 'product' is bad because there is no money being invested in it. It is either a. going to Britain in the form of investment, b. FAI spending on whatever it is they spend their money on.

Well you see thats where there is a failing of the Gov and the league and the FAI in that order. There is obviously flaws in both the money allocated and the handling of the money allocated. That said, the TV deals are pretty piss poor too and the coverage awful. Probably not the fault of the LoI, but really, something could be done there.

The punters need to realise that they cannot expect to see Premiership standard soccer at poor LoI clubs. The only way the clubs are going to stop being poor is if ordinary, everyday people start attending games and give us some money. It is that simple.

A simple catch 22, because the only way people are going to go to games is if the league improves it's "product". Personally, I don't believe that means improving the quality of the football, it's on a par with the championship from the playoff places down imo, I think the marketing, the atmosphere, the community involvement etc etc... that could all be improved.

When those celebrity dream teams played at tolka park a few years back, they got people in..... it's all about marketing.

Hmm, I'd agree with you to a point on this one. But what has to be mentioned is the fact that a certain amount of apathy is there with the Irish public in general when it comes to Irish football. In fact clubs are doing stuff in communities. Small works. Only last week I saw two schoolboy teams in Tolka Park watching our match. It is starting. I assume the other clubs are doing the same.

Shels have always had a student price (at least as far back as when I was a student) and I know a good few other clubs had the same. That said, schoolboy tickets being directly distributed to schools, scouts and coaches visiting or taking on local school teams, community days etc etc. These not only make money, but generate fans. I'm watching the genesis of a major MLS team here. They already have money, but they don't have fans. The funny thing is, in most of their successful fan drives, they actually MAKE money for the club.


I play for an amateur team in the US and believe me, we get as many spectators at some games as the less supported LoI teams.

:eek: Are you mad? The league can hardly support 22 teams in 2 divisions as it is. You want to add more? Look at Cork for example. It has one team, but how many times has that team folded and come back again. Cork Hibernian, Cork Celtic. Look at what has just happened in Limerick.

Yeah, but you see thatis under the current LoI. I honestly think the eL needs to be seriously revamped, teams moved, renamed and the league in general be made more competitive.

Let's get away from Dublin for a minute

Gladly

All of our major population centres have a team. Limerick, Galway, Sligo, Kilkenny, Athlone, Cork and Louth has two (One moving into Co Meath soon). Waterford, Wexford, Longford. These teams haven't the support either. Longford look like they will go out of business completely. And you want to add even more teams who will exist precariously? Seriously?

Ahh but honestly,what makes soccer so popular? Rivalry. Local rivalries in particular. Whats the good in supporting your local team if everyone else is too. The only place that exists is Dublin.

So which Dublin teams do you get rid of, and please explain to me what happens to these clubs with over a hundred years of history, and their fans?

I'm not having a dig here, this is the one point in my whole post I'd like you to address. It's nearly the same point as the previous poster, Benedict XVI, made.

As I said I wouldn't support Shelhemians, or North Dublin United, or anything like it. Neither would any other self respecting LoI fan. The Milton Keynes Dons experience speaks for itself tbh.

I don't know, and I take your point well. I think in many cases sacrifices have to be made. Look at Shels, they have the history but given the past year, they've pretty much shown themselves to be near unviable. I don't think the MK Dons is a good analogy, given the success of Wimbledon in the 90's.
It's a hard one, but sacrifices have to be made for progress.

I think things that need addressing are first and formost marketing and club management. After that, community relations and fanbase need be addressed. Bring kids away from the Xboxs and the Playstations and back to the fields and the stands. Market the players. Get the Houlihans, the Geoghans, the Doyles, the Sherlocks and anyone else marketable out in the public eye. How many times did we see Jason Sherlock in a Dublin Jersey? I used to see Trevor Giles on billboards in Meath. When did you ever see Sherlock in a UCD or Shamrock Rovers jersey? Send them to schools, get them coaching kids. Make them rolemodels BEFORE they go to england.


This will start a competition for the Dublin fan bases and ff this causes some teams to fold, then so be it tbh.

You'd think people in Kilkenny, Athlone and Longford would be the same wouldn't you.

Where are their nearest rivals? They have no peers in terms of money and populations support.

Who is going to finance these eight new teams, plus the already established twenty-two. Your three division thirty team dream is very noble, but last time I checked money doesn't grow on trees, especially not LoI trees.

I'd like to see the Government invest in LoI, I really would, but at the end of the day, it's down to the teams. The clubs simply aren't run as businesses, at least not ina successful sense and the teams and football isn't sold as a product.

People expect the same product they get from Sky in their living room when they go to LoI grounds. This can't happen until there is money put into the LoI.

No they don't, they just expect to get a product worth paying for. Or at least to feel they're getting their money's worth. If they all expected Sky standards, then there would be 1.5 divisions in England.

I don't want it all my ow way, or anything like it. I want people to support the national league. I want the FAI to get the finger out and start running it properly. That will bring investment. Nothing else.

Right, spot on. I think the clubs need to take blame here too. But yes, when it's run properly, then you can wonder why fans aren't coming, not before.

Now, just a quick request. This thread isn't supposed to be about the LoI, is there any chance you could break off the LoI posts and stick them into a new thread?

Do you want me to undelete your old post and merge with that or a new one? Whenyou answer, I'll do it (sorry I've been away).

The Rooster

Jonny Arson wrote:

€15 is a perfectly reasonable price for any LOI club to charge, you pay about 3 times to see most premiership clubs!

You comparing the two divisions!

If €15 results in half-full grounds, then it would be appear to be too high. However if it was €10 or even €5, would that result in grounds being full? No idea, but its all a question of supply and demand and working out what price brings in the most income, bearing in mind that once someone is in the ground they may spend more money on programs, food, etc, and they are more likely to come back. You'd hope that clubs have examined this closely, as they have in England, where there is no standard entry fee, every club charges different prices and has a range of different ticket options.

To get interest in Irish club soccer, you need to make it fashionable to go to. Need a lot more media coverage. And even then the likes of Bohs v Drogs on telly isnt going to get a big audience, as people dont really care who wins. But Cork v some Icelandic team in the InterToto Cup does create interest. In my opinion there should be an effort to show all European games live, as I'd say these would generate much higher viewing figures than ordinary league games.

_blank_

psi wrote:

Do you want me to undelete your old post and merge with that or a new one? Whenyou answer, I'll do it .

I tihnk this here LoI discussion is one of the best we've had on Boards tbh, so I'd like it to have a thread of it's own, not where it's being interrupted by people's lovely stories of liking Accrington Stanley because of a poxy milk ad in the 80s.

Probably best to let sleeping dogs lie as regards the deleted post

psi wrote:

(sorry I've been away)

I obviously missed the memo that told mods they could have an actual life so.

PHB

if you don't support an Irish team or don't support or contribute in any manner to our domestic league you have absolutely no right whatsoever to complain about the Irish national team

I really do love this attitude, I really do. Considering that all the good Irish players were developed in the English system, and they all play for English clubs, surely it would be logial to support those clubs over EL clubs, if you are, ya know, supporting the Irish team?

_blank_

I'm going to try to put this as diplomatically as possible.

I'm certainly not trying to troll, although a few sensitive souls may feel differently.

Now, what myself, and the majority of other eL fans, cannot comprehend is how people who are exclusively fans of Premiership teams actually connect with their team and it's players.

Most Irish people, who live in Ireland, rarely actually get to go and see their team playing LIVE. Rather they watch on TV. Now, the bigger teams, Manchester United, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal, Real Madrid, Barcelona, etc etc, nearly every single game they play is available to watch somewhere. But still, no matter how it is dressed up, sitting in a pub, or on your couch, simply does not compare to actually being in the stadium, physically supporting your team. Those who have a different opinion, fair enough, but I think you are deluded.

Now, how many of you non LoI fans actually know players on the team you support? I'm not talking about SuperStar #1 that you may have met on a night out in London, or something ridiculous like that. With eL teams, certainly with Shelbourne, I've been in the bar after matches and sat chatting with players for a while, not looking for autographs, not feeling special because he actually took time to stop and patronise me for a minute, a good aul chat about, or perhaps not about, football. There is one player in particular, who I won't name, who actually takes the time to look for me after the game for a chat. I knew him in passing beforehand, now I consider him a friend. That is next to impossible with Premiership players/teams. The life of Beckham, Giggs, Henry, Gary Neville, never drosses with the average Joe Punter. There is no real connection between the clubs and the everyday fans.

How many of you have actually sat in the bar a half hour after a league win and celebrated with the players and manager. Drank a godawful mixture of whatever is in the beer taps from the League Trophy? Held the manager on your shoulders? Sang a player's song with that player alongside you, roaring the words as loud as you have been all season long?

How many of you have sat down with the team manager and asked him wtf is going on with team selection, instead of bitch about it on an internet message board?

How many of you have slagged an opposition player, only to see him turn and either laugh or tell you to eff off?

You'd have next to no chance of these things happening in Old Trafford, The Nou Camp or Stamford Bridge. Sure, there might be a prize draw for such a thing, but in the LoI this is a very real possibility for each and every fan who feels like heading into the bar after the match.

I cannot understand how fans of Liverpool, Man Utd, and all the other teams akin to these actually connect to their team.

Mr Alan

In fairness, i don't think anyone could doubt that players etc are more accesible in the Eircom league.

But if thats why you support football, why not then support a team in the premier A league? or watever league your local team is in? stand at the side of the pitch on sunday mornings? ultimate access to players - free into grounds - choice of view to watch the match from, behind the goal, halfway line etc.

The reason more people support PL teams as opposed to EL teams is because the gulf in class in incredible. And considering people watch football to be entertained, whats wrong with choosing a league with world class players as opposed to a league which has kids and people who couldnt make it in England.

The same player sitting beside you in the bar chatting, would prefer to be playing in England for a big club. Fact.

_blank_

millersangel wrote:

The same player sitting beside you in the bar chatting, would prefer to be playing in England for a big club. Fact.

And some players who play in England would prefer to be in Spain playing for a bigger club. Fact.

I fail to see what this has to do with anything.

I never said the standard was better in the eL, I'm not an idiot, and I have eyes and a brain in my head.

In fact, people who compare the standard of football in the LoI vs The Money Rich SuperLeagues of Europe like EPL, La Liga and Seria A are being silly. There is no comparison. None.

But, when we compare the LoI to other leagues accross Europe, we see that the standard is somewhat similar. Look at recent European Results for examples.

Ireland is the only country I can think of where the local game is so severley ignored by the majority in favour of a better league in a neighbouring country. Why it happens here, I have absolutely no idea.

millersangel wrote:

But if thats why you support football, why not then support a team in the premier A league? or watever league your local team is in? stand at the side of the pitch on sunday mornings? ultimate access to players - free into grounds - choice of view to watch the match from, behind the goal, halfway line etc.

I do

In fact, I manage a team in the Astro League Social Standard (possibly the lowest level of football in this country:D ), you may have heard of us

Mr Alan

i agree that some players in england would prefer to be playing in spain. but only the foreign lads in the main (and lampard!;)). but while they are in England at least they are providing us with solid entertainment and class football (most of the time)

i'm sure a book could be written about our relationship with England but like it or lump it, we do have one. for example we share music tastes, magazines, television channels, etc etc

the only reason i pitched in on this is because you said that you couldnt understand why people would support an english team and i just wanted to point out that if people want to (myself included), leave em (us) to it.

I could just as easily come on here and say, why do you bother to watch that EL ****e?! but i dont,cause i dont believe that and because if you want to watch it and you enjoy it, fair play to ya.

maybe i'll go to an eircom league game with ya and ya can show me wat i'm missing!

PHB

O RLY?

The ignorance of that comment is, simply, astounding.

Yeh, cause so many eL players have really performed when they have been put into the national team. Get over it, Irish national players play in England or elsewhere, and the ones who think they can be good enough, want to play there. The eL has **** all to do with the national team, there is utterly no link whatsoever.

_blank_

PHB wrote:

Yeh, cause so many eL players have really performed when they have been put into the national team. Get over it, Irish national players play in England or elsewhere, and the ones who think they can be good enough, want to play there. The eL has **** all to do with the national team, there is utterly no link whatsoever.

Do you think Reading developed Kevin Doyle? Seriously?

Because, I'll quote you again

PHB wrote:

Considering that all the good Irish players were developed in the English system

Or do you not consider Kevin Doyle to be 'good'?

Which is it?

PHB

Fair enough, there are the exceptions, but these are very rare, and it's normally because they are exceptionally talented players (Doyle and Keane spring to mind). Furthermore, most of the real work is done in England. Most Irish players start playing in Ireland, cause well they are Irish, but the good ones all move on at a very early age, sometimes staying until 20. I'll rephrase, nearly all the good Irish players were developed in the English system, and even the ones that left at a late age, still owe a massive amount of their development, if not the majority, to the English system.

However, where players are produced is really not relevant to which league to support. I don't support United or the Premiership because they produce good Irish players (although United have produced a lot of good Irish players), I support them because I support them. Me supporting Rovers because they produce players for the Irish team makes about as much sense as some English player supporting Munich because they produced Hargreaves

gustavo

millersangel wrote:

i agree that some players in england would prefer to be playing in spain. but only the foreign lads in the main (and lampard!;)). but while they are in England at least they are providing us with solid entertainment and class football (most of the time)

!

Last time I checked Lampard was foreign too.

Mr Alan

hilarious

Pepe LeFrits

seansouth wrote:

I'm going to try to put this as diplomatically as possible.

I'm certainly not trying to troll, although a few sensitive souls may feel differently.

Now, what myself, and the majority of other eL fans, cannot comprehend is how people who are exclusively fans of Premiership teams actually connect with their team and it's players.

Most Irish people, who live in Ireland, rarely actually get to go and see their team playing LIVE. Rather they watch on TV. Now, the bigger teams, Manchester United, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal, Real Madrid, Barcelona, etc etc, nearly every single game they play is available to watch somewhere. But still, no matter how it is dressed up, sitting in a pub, or on your couch, simply does not compare to actually being in the stadium, physically supporting your team. Those who have a different opinion, fair enough, but I think you are deluded.

Now, how many of you non LoI fans actually know players on the team you support? I'm not talking about SuperStar #1 that you may have met on a night out in London, or something ridiculous like that. With eL teams, certainly with Shelbourne, I've been in the bar after matches and sat chatting with players for a while, not looking for autographs, not feeling special because he actually took time to stop and patronise me for a minute, a good aul chat about, or perhaps not about, football. There is one player in particular, who I won't name, who actually takes the time to look for me after the game for a chat. I knew him in passing beforehand, now I consider him a friend. That is next to impossible with Premiership players/teams. The life of Beckham, Giggs, Henry, Gary Neville, never drosses with the average Joe Punter. There is no real connection between the clubs and the everyday fans.

How many of you have actually sat in the bar a half hour after a league win and celebrated with the players and manager. Drank a godawful mixture of whatever is in the beer taps from the League Trophy? Held the manager on your shoulders? Sang a player's song with that player alongside you, roaring the words as loud as you have been all season long?

How many of you have sat down with the team manager and asked him wtf is going on with team selection, instead of bitch about it on an internet message board?

How many of you have slagged an opposition player, only to see him turn and either laugh or tell you to eff off?

You'd have next to no chance of these things happening in Old Trafford, The Nou Camp or Stamford Bridge. Sure, there might be a prize draw for such a thing, but in the LoI this is a very real possibility for each and every fan who feels like heading into the bar after the match.

I cannot understand how fans of Liverpool, Man Utd, and all the other teams akin to these actually connect to their team.

Go to one of said grounds for a match, go the pubs around the ground beforehand, the bars in ground during the game, the pubs after. Then you'll be able answer the question.

Only able to connect with a team if their players drink in the pub with you? haha.

ntlbell

seansouth wrote:

I'm going to try to put this as diplomatically as possible.

I'm certainly not trying to troll, although a few sensitive souls may feel differently.

Now, what myself, and the majority of other eL fans, cannot comprehend is how people who are exclusively fans of Premiership teams actually connect with their team and it's players.

Most Irish people, who live in Ireland, rarely actually get to go and see their team playing LIVE. Rather they watch on TV. Now, the bigger teams, Manchester United, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal, Real Madrid, Barcelona, etc etc, nearly every single game they play is available to watch somewhere. But still, no matter how it is dressed up, sitting in a pub, or on your couch, simply does not compare to actually being in the stadium, physically supporting your team. Those who have a different opinion, fair enough, but I think you are deluded.

Now, how many of you non LoI fans actually know players on the team you support? I'm not talking about SuperStar #1 that you may have met on a night out in London, or something ridiculous like that. With eL teams, certainly with Shelbourne, I've been in the bar after matches and sat chatting with players for a while, not looking for autographs, not feeling special because he actually took time to stop and patronise me for a minute, a good aul chat about, or perhaps not about, football. There is one player in particular, who I won't name, who actually takes the time to look for me after the game for a chat. I knew him in passing beforehand, now I consider him a friend. That is next to impossible with Premiership players/teams. The life of Beckham, Giggs, Henry, Gary Neville, never drosses with the average Joe Punter. There is no real connection between the clubs and the everyday fans.

How many of you have actually sat in the bar a half hour after a league win and celebrated with the players and manager. Drank a godawful mixture of whatever is in the beer taps from the League Trophy? Held the manager on your shoulders? Sang a player's song with that player alongside you, roaring the words as loud as you have been all season long?

How many of you have sat down with the team manager and asked him wtf is going on with team selection, instead of bitch about it on an internet message board?

How many of you have slagged an opposition player, only to see him turn and either laugh or tell you to eff off?

You'd have next to no chance of these things happening in Old Trafford, The Nou Camp or Stamford Bridge. Sure, there might be a prize draw for such a thing, but in the LoI this is a very real possibility for each and every fan who feels like heading into the bar after the match.

I cannot understand how fans of Liverpool, Man Utd, and all the other teams akin to these actually connect to their team.

This is just *bizare*

I'm a football fan, I like football, I like to watch teams who play good football. I'm not interested in touching willie's with Ryan Giggs in a bath after a football match.

If you moved to america, and over the space of a few years your LOI team changed, you didn't know the players, you didn't know the manager, players didn't personally come off the pitch after a match and jerk you off for being such a knowedlege loyal fan, would you stop supporting them?

stop talking nonsense please.

GuanYin

seansouth wrote:

How many of you have actually sat in the bar a half hour after a league win and celebrated with the players and manager. Drank a godawful mixture of whatever is in the beer taps from the League Trophy? Held the manager on your shoulders? Sang a player's song with that player alongside you, roaring the words as loud as you have been all season long? .

Thats a bit of a silly point in term sof supporting a team. As an analogy, I know alot of Dublin's leading rock/indie musicians and have often stayed drinking with them in Whelans. Does this mean that I would be more likely to buy their albums or go to their gigs over other, more internationally renowned bands I like?

No, not at all. At the end of the day, I still exercise the personal preference to the product I prefer.

Attractive Nun

ntlbell wrote:

I'm not interested in touching willie's with Ryan Giggs in a bath after a football match.

Greatest quote ever.

Jonny Arson

PHB wrote:

I really do love this attitude, I really do. Considering that all the good Irish players were developed in the English system, and they all play for English clubs, surely it would be logial to support those clubs over EL clubs, if you are, ya know, supporting the Irish team?

Pure and utter ignorant Sky Sports Premiership obsessed horsesh!t.

Sure why don't we farm our 2 year olds out to English clubs because obviously youngsters at underage level learn absolutely nothing playing football in this country. What did playing at underage level in this country do for Roy Keane, Kevin Doyle and practically every single other Irish born and bred footballer in this country? We develop the young players for the English system and they grab them at the critical make or break ages of 15-19

We are not living to our full potential producing our own players because our own Oirish football ''supporters'' invest their cash into English clubs and inevitably the English national team.

You obviously have never known any young Irish footballer who went to England at 15 or 16 and was heartbroken by being tossed out on the scrapheap by your beloved English clubs leading them to give up on the game. It is estimated by most people that about 9/10 young Irish players who go to England never ''make it''.

If, Irish football ''supporters'' bothered their own holes to go and support their domestic game clubs in this country our clubs would more effectively nurture many of potentially rejected players leading to a stronger domestic league and guess what?! A stronger Irish national team! - What I have explained is the critical distinction between genuine Irish football supporters and Irish national team followers and why the pathetic attitudes of Irish national team followers are the major critical problem and barrier to football in this country fulfilling it's potential.

_blank_

Nice one psi for breaking this thread off and that, fair play.

Pepe LeFrits wrote:

Go to one of said grounds for a match, go the pubs around the ground beforehand, the bars in ground during the game, the pubs after. Then you'll be able answer the question.

How often do Irish fans of foreign teams, who live in Ireland, do this?

ntlbell wrote:

This is just *bizare*

I'm a football fan, I like football, I like to watch teams who play good football. I'm not interested in touching willie's with Ryan Giggs in a bath after a football match.

If the only way people can counter an argument is to question another person's sexuality, then in fairness, you aren't really worth dealing with.

Come up with a decent, mature, counterpoint, or stop wasting my time.

psi wrote:

Thats a bit of a silly point in term sof supporting a team. As an analogy, I know alot of Dublin's leading rock/indie musicians and have often stayed drinking with them in Whelans. Does this mean that I would be more likely to buy their albums or go to their gigs over other, more internationally renowned bands I like?

No, not at all. At the end of the day, I still exercise the personal preference to the product I prefer.

OK, but personally, and maybe it's only me, but being able to interact with the player who's names I chant week-in week-out, at a real level, is one of the reasons I fell in love with the LoI.

One of the reasons, not even the main reason, but I'll say this; every time I am in Tolka Park, Monaghan or wherever, and a player from the team I support takes the time out to acknowledge me, personally, I like the LoI and Shelbourne that little bit more.

ntlbell

seansouth wrote:

Come up with a decent, mature, counterpoint, or stop wasting my time.

If you moved to america, and over the space of a few years your LOI team changed, you didn't know the players, you didn't know the manager, , would you stop supporting them?

I wasn't questioning your sexuality.

The Muppet

To answer the ops question the reason the LOI is poorly supported is because of the poor quality of the product on offer and the even poorer management of the game at that level.

Irish people don't have any problem spending money to see good football thousands of them travel to the Uk every weekend.

GuanYin

seansouth wrote:

Nice one psi for breaking this thread off and that, fair play.

Ermm, hope I got all the right posts and didn't take any wrong ones by mistake.

If someone notices I did, PM me and I'll sort it.

Raskolnikov

It's all about quality.

For a long time, League of Ireland teams played absolute rubbish (indeed, the majority of them still do). It's only been recently that we've seen players of the calibre of Kevin Doyle, Wes Hoolihan, Jason Byrne, Joey Ndo, Roy O'Donovan, etc, come through. Call me a fairweather fan, but I will only turn up to to home Cork City games where they're playing opposition who can actually play the ball on the grass.

If Cork City were to go back to hoofing the ball from defence, I'd certainly watch them less.

_blank_

ntlbell wrote:

If you moved to america, and over the space of a few years your LOI team changed, you didn't know the players, you didn't know the manager, , would you stop supporting them?

As you may know? This very scenario happened Shels very recently. Granted I didn't move to America, and I knew the new manager from a previous stint with Shels, and no, I didn't stop supporting.

Nor would I if I did move to America.

It was one example I gave of why I support the eL. Not the definitive reason either.

Hmm, I lived in Sydney for a while in 05/06 and I went to all the Sydney FC home games, remember Dwight Yorke 'played' for them, simply because I missed my weekly dose of live football.

Jonny Arson

The Muppet wrote:

To answer the ops question the reason the LOI is poorly supported is because of the poor quality of the product on offer and the even poorer management of the game at that level.

So how many LOI matches have you attended during the past year, Muppet? :rolleyes:

The standard of football is at it's best ever, I agree facilities and marketing aren't great and do need to be improved but in reality if people really love football and want to watch it then perfection of facilities and endless materialistic marketing shouldn't come into significant consideration. Supporting a football club isn't ALL about the quality of football being played.

No one will dispute that the league has been managed like a piece of crap over the years. It has been frustrating for all LOI supporters but hopefully things are changing, nothing is perfect yet but with the new league and new management I am confident things are going in the right direction for the better.

As i have said, ignorant attitudes towards the domestic game are the biggest difficulty for the domestic game. Clubs can't just build big new modern stadia without people coming through the turnstiles, so if you're demanding that you will only go to games if facilities are first class than forget about it, money doesn't grow on trees and if you want to see change regarding facilities you have to help make it happen!

What LOI MUST do is target youngsters, schools, wherever young people are. The ignorant and apathetic attitude of fans of the Sky Sports Premiership era are not going to go away. We have to target youth, get them playing and get them into matches so they can fall in love with football played at a high level before their very eyes and not through a TV screen to something they will never have a genuine connection with. If the domestic games does this it is possible to change this horrible Sky Sports Only culture in to the future and make supporting your own league and game the norm from being the abnormal.

_blank_

Jonny Arson wrote:

What LOI MUST do is target youngsters, schools, wherever young people are. ...We have to target youth, get them playing and get them into matches so they can fall in love with football played at a high level before their very eyes and not through a TV screen to something they will never have a genuine connection with. ...

You are, of course, correct.

I don't expect anyone over the age of about eighteen to suddenly jump all over the LoI, it won't happen.

millersangel wrote:

maybe i'll go to an eircom league game with ya and ya can show me wat i'm missing!

Hmm, to be honest, I wouldn't be bringing anyone to a first division match and expecting them to fall in love with the domestic game.

But if you are serious, and by jesus it galls me to say this, I'll gladly head to Richmond Park with you to watch probably the best team the eL has seen since the demise of Shels. St Pat's. Not the Spurs friendly though.

Forgive me if I'm a bit sceptical though, about a year ago some other poster offered me the same and he never got back in touch, so meh, if you're up for it, then so am I. Offer stands for anyone else who wishes to come aswell, I'm sure KdjaC will make us more than welcome

Big Ears

To answer the title of this thread , advertisment and promotion are the two main reasons . After that comes product and stadia .

I would say everything with the League is improving at the minute and the merger has actually helped quite a bit . However one problem is the exit of so many players this last season . Prior to that the quality had been the best it had been in a long time and even though it is still quite a bit ahead of where we were 5 years ago it has regressed slightly(at the top level) . However the likes of Pats are capable of playing very attractive football and even Drogheda are looking to use the talent they have at the moment in an exciting manner rather than playing defensively against vastly inferior sides .

Advertisement and promotion has improved a lot , previously there was pretty much none . Now there is a good bit of effort being put into it but the FAI need to give much , much more money towards it . €450,000 was the advertising budget for the season I think and that's not nerely enough .

Stadiums are probably where the most progress has been made and a lot of that is down to proper licensing . http://foot.ie/forums/showthread.php?t=43132
This thread shows that a lot of clubs are putting huge efforts into improving their grounds .

Attendances are up quite a bit this season so obviously more people are deciding to go to games . We should try and build on the progress made and additional funding is one thing badly needed .

New licensing has also seen almost all clubs clean up their act and with the exception of Longford I don't think anyone is or will be in serious financial difficulty in the near future .

But the EL will never , ever gain proper public attention with a badly put together highlights show that is on at 11:20(at the earliest) on a Monday night . What 6 year old is going to see that ? , hell what 10 year old is even going to see that ?

The real selling point of the league is that it's in Ireland(so easy/easier to get to than matches in another country) and prices are reasonable and we're starting to get some decent stadia to go with that .
Football looks better when you're actually there , if you see Pat McCourt(on form) play in front of your eyes it's much more impressive than watching the likes of Giggs on tv . Now Giggs may be a better player and seeing him in the flesh would be even more impressive . But to do that you have to get yourself flights , expensive tickets(especially if you've 2/3 kids) food etc and all in all you're paying loads of money for this . While at the same time you could have bought yourself and your family a season ticket to see McCourt(I suppose only if you live near Derry) for cheaper .

Now I'm not going to go on a rant on people going over to England to see games(there's nothing wrong with them spending their hard earned cash how they like) but the FAI should promote the point that this is something you can go to/bring your family to on a regular basis and get quality entertainment from for reasonable prices .

Summer football may have initially affected attendances but now that crowds are beginning to rise again it has definitely been a positive . Summer football has helped LOI sides do well in Europe and while we have seen that most of the bandwagon fans that go to European games don't stay there has been another positive . I would argue you are less likely nowdays for someone to say the EL is crap due to performances in Europe from EL sides . Okay you'll still get it(and possibly plenty of it) but there isn't as much as before .
This is very important as possibly one of the biggest reasons people don't even try games is the usual comment too many people spout 'The Eircom League is ****'

If someone goes to 2/3 games and thinks '**** it I've better things to do with my time' fair enough . But even if you have seen plenty of games on tv and don't like the look of it , go down to your nearest club and give it a try . Football looks better when your there and that to me is an undisputable fact .



As for counties without teams , as you maybe can see I am from one of those counties , and infact used to be a 15 year old from Nenagh who couldn't get to games:D . I now get to Limerick games ever so often but I don't feel like a proper fan of them . I would like to see the A League(a new tier in EL football to be brought in , in 2008 which will consist of reserve sides and new amateurs teams and amateur teams making the step up) make teams for the counties of Mayo , Tipperary , Clare , Kerry etc .

One thing to be very careful though is name and location . Even though the idea may not have seemed to work in some places , clubs should be formed with the county name in it so as not to alienate people . Eg a Tipperary side should be Tipperary FC and not Clonmel Town(should they decide to make a step up) . Location is a huge factor . People from Nenagh won't go as far as Clonmel and people from Clonmel won't go as far as Nenagh . The only logical place for a team in Tipperary would be Thurles where there is a chance of getting people from all over the county to go .
Another thing is Tipperary really does feel split between North and South , those of us from North Tipp feel different to people from South Tipp and visa-versa . Although Thurles is technically in North Tipp it is seen as a meeting point between North and South and a sort of middle ground .
There is a great rivalry between soccer in North and South Tipperary(even though the South is so much stronger at Junior level) that a ground based in a predominantly Southern/Northern area of the County would make people feel it's a North/South Tipp team and wouldn't go even if they didn't mind the travelling . I'm sure other counties have similar issues to the above which would have to be worked out .

But I think if done right Kerry/Mayo/Tipperary could form A League sides not only with good support but of a very high standard .

The Muppet

Jonny Arson wrote:

So how many LOI matches have you attended during the past year, Muppet? :rolleyes:




The standard of football is at it's best ever, I agree facilities and marketing aren't great and do need to be improved but in reality if people really love football and want to watch it then perfection of facilities and endless materialistic marketing shouldn't come into significant consideration. Supporting a football club isn't ALL about the quality of football being played.

No one will dispute that the league has been managed like a piece of crap over the years. It has been frustrating for all LOI supporters but hopefully things are changing, nothing is perfect yet but with the new league and new management I am confident things are going in the right direction for the better.

As i have said, ignorant attitudes towards the domestic game are the biggest difficulty for the domestic game. Clubs can't just build big new modern stadia without people coming through the turnstiles, so if you're demanding that you will only go to games if facilities are first class than forget about it, money doesn't grow on trees and if you want to see change regarding facilities you have to help make it happen!

What LOI MUST do is target youngsters, schools, wherever young people are. The ignorant and apathetic attitude of fans of the Sky Sports Premiership era are not going to go away. We have to target youth, get them playing and get them into matches so they can fall in love with football played at a high level before their very eyes and not through a TV screen to something they will never have a genuine connection with. If the domestic games does this it is possible to change this horrible Sky Sports Only culture in to the future and make supporting your own league and game the norm from being the abnormal.

What are you rolling your eyes for? I have seen enough L of I football to be capable of forming an opinion about it. If you don't agree with that opinion thats fine by me.

GuanYin

Here's another aspect to look at.

I go to baseball games in the US. I hate baseball, it's boring, it's crap and it's like watching paint dry, or even worse, cricket.

I and thousands who feel as I do, still flock every week. Why? Atmosphere. It's marketed as a fun, family day out (with beer!). The stadia are designed as such, the match atmosphere is set up as such.

Go to an LoI game, hell go to an RoI game and it's nowhere like that, you get herded and treated like cattle at the RoI games and the LoI games are like watching at the side of a park.

Community events at half time, crowd participation, good set up and management and it doesn't matter how bad the game is.

Raskolnikov

Jonny Arson wrote:

The standard of football is at it's best ever

That's only a half truth.

Three or four teams are playing decent football on a regular basis. I won't start naming names, you know well who the culprits of shíte football are.

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Jaysis Big Ears, I was going to mention you in my last post, I forgot though:o

Excellent post btw, thanks for the Tipp history lesson:p

Yes, this new A-League is intriguing alright, and maybe I was being a bit disingenuous to psi in an earlier post when it was suggested the LoI needs another tier.

Pepe LeFrits

seansouth wrote:

How often do Irish fans of foreign teams, who live in Ireland, do this?

I can't really speak to that, can I? I went to Arsenal half a dozen times last season, as for others... I've no idea. I would have gone more had I been able to get tickets, my mate (also Irish) is a ST holder and I'd say he went about 12 times.

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Raskolnikov wrote:

That's only a half truth.

Three or four teams are playing decent football on a regular basis. I won't start naming names, you know well who the culprits of shíte football are.

But hang on, it is the full truth,

For years we saw shíte as a weekly serving, now there are sides playing good football, regularly.

Quality is improving, and yes, I'd say is at it's best in a very long time.

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Pepe LeFrits wrote:

I can't really speak to that, can I? I went to Arsenal half a dozen times last season, as for others... I've no idea. I would have gone more had I been able to get tickets, my mate (also Irish) is a ST holder and I'd say he went about 12 times.

Well, a straw poll of the people you know who are fans of English teams.

Of my mates and family, me and my brother are the only ones who support the LoI. And his friends.

So, I know various Man Utd, Chelsea and sundry other EPL fans. Not one of them went over to see a game this past season.

My Chelsea mate has been in Tolka Park more times than he's been in Stamford Bridge, same for a Man Utd fan, my flatmate, he's been in Tolka once, which is more than he's been to Old Trafford.

Raskolnikov

seansouth wrote:

For years we saw shíte as a weekly serving, now there are sides playing good football, regularly.

With plenty more teams who are content to mindlessly hoof the ball up the field.

seansouth wrote:

Quality is improving, and yes, I'd say is at it's best in a very long time.

No one is arguing that.

Things are getting better but there's a lot of room for improvement.