Gun Auction

mallards

I heard on the radio this morning that the Garda had to withdraw some confiscated imitation firearms from an auction they were having. The radio presenter just called them firearms and made out that firearms are bad etc etc etc. My question is why do these people not use the words legally or illegally held firearms?
Do the Garda record crime involving firearms as either with a legal or illegal firearm or lump them all together as one and then pass this info to the media? I just think it would help us to make people more aware that firearm ownership isn't a bad thing. And legally held guns are used in an extremely tiny amount of crime, not that illegally held ones are used in many more!

Mallards.

rrpc

I was talking to a crime prevention officer a week ago and he told me that just over 50 firearms were stolen in his division last year. Now that is only 0.3% of the total number of firearms in that division, but it's still a sizeable number, and you would have to assume that some of these were used or will be used in crimes.

We as owners have to ensure that our firearms are not stolen, and if they are that they are not usable, so get a gunsafe and always remove the action from your firearm and keep it seperately in a safe place.

That way, there won't be any statistics of legally held guns being used in crimes.

freddieot

It would also be interesting to find out how many of those guns were :-

(i) being stored in a safe and
(ii) in a house with a monitored alarm

I agree completely that we have a responsibility as responsible gun owners to ensure that while it might be a doddle for a thief to take the DVD player etc; the really important items in our homes are harder to obtain. I see these 2 security measures as a bare minimum for a responsible gun owner. The days of keeping guns in sheds and under beds are over.

My own preference is for 3 safes, 1 for ammo (fireproof), 1 for rifle bolt, parts, all magazines etc. and one for the firearms. Therefore all 3 safes have to be opened in order to have a working firearm which obviously forces scumbag to work harder and much longer, if he can get them open etc. That would be important to me for example if I was the cop responding to the monitored alarm !

Seems excessive ? Not really. I've spend thousands on rifles and pistols, club fees, scopes and spent years persuading the powers that be to give me all this stuff. It's worth some effort and a bit of investment in security to make sure it does not all disappear some night. Even a double barrel should be in some kind of a safe and with the DIY stores doing everything from small vaults to fingerprint recognition safes for very reasonable prices there is no excuse. Of course there is no such thing as total security.

Vegeta

would they not just pull the safe off the wall and take all three safes?

i'm all for security and all but lets face it if someone knows there are guns in your house and wants to rob them they'll find a way.

Asked many times but does anyone know the response time of the gardai to a house registered with firearms in them?

rrpc

Vegeta wrote:

would they not just pull the safe off the wall and take all three safes?

i'm all for security and all but lets face it if someone knows there are guns in your house and wants to rob them they'll find a way.

Asked many times but does anyone know the response time of the gardai to a house registered with firearms in them?

Of course they can, they have to pull all three safes off the wall, and they have to lug them out of the house as well. It's about making it harder for them to do and easier to be caught.

Response time seems to be good. Sparks mentioned that when his house was burgled, the Gardai were out in double quick time.

A monitored alarm is an extremely useful addition. Monitoring services are typically on to you within minutes of the alarm going off. Mine usually have rung me before I can get to the phone to ring them to tell them its a falsie.

Vegeta

rrpc wrote:

Of course they can, they have to pull all three safes off the wall, and they have to lug them out of the house as well. It's about making it harder for them to do and easier to be caught.

Response time seems to be good. Sparks mentioned that when his house was burgled, the Gardai were out in double quick time.

A monitored alarm is an extremely useful addition. Monitoring services are typically on to you within minutes of the alarm going off. Mine usually have rung me before I can get to the phone to ring them to tell them its a falsie.

Oh I know the monitoring crowd ring you quickly but that's worth feck all if there are guys robbing your guns. It doesn't really matter if the monitoring compnay ring you and the gardai at the same time. The important thing is the garda response time

Just wondering do the gardai take 10 mins, half an hour an hour?

rrpc

Just wondering do the gardai take 10 mins, half an hour an hour?

I think you'll wonder until it happens to you. Then you'll know. Response times vary depending on availability of a squad car, the area your station covers etc. etc.

The point is to make it as slow as possible, and as hard as possible for them to make a quick getaway with your firearms. freddieot makes a valid point in saying that you have to keep everything seperate, and ensure that it's as difficult as possible.

From the thieves point of view, if they're faced with three safes, all bolted to concrete walls, with an alarm blaring beside them and the phone ringing, they'll always assume that they've 10 to 15 minutes before the squad car arrives.

My preference is to have the smaller stuff (bolts, actions and ammo) in a different location (floor safe or concealed safe) so that if they do manage to get the firearms, they can't be used.

It's your responsibility to look at your security and properly assess how long it's going to take to breach it. The longer the better. It's not about the Garda response time, but the prospective burglars view on that response time.

bullets

rrpc wrote:

O
Response time seems to be good. Sparks mentioned that when his house was burgled, the Gardai were out in double quick time.

My story below if a little OT but the GARDA dont inspire a lot of convidence for me. I keep my bolt and ammo seperate from the rest of my rifle.

I had a burgler call do my door once pretending
to be looking for a friend. As he was acting dodgy I watched him out my window and took photos of him. He scoped out a few houses and decided to rob one! I phoned the cops 3 times. Before he broke into the house telling them he was acting suspiciously, as he was inside the house, andwhen he was leaving.
This was at 15:00 in the day. Cops arrived out
or rather detectives arrived out around 19:30 at night after I rang them
3 times!!!!! They told me they could not find the house!! and were
busy!! I gave them the negatives from my camera which I never saw back,
and they had to send them upto Dublin to get developed!!!! They wanted
my to look at mug shots and they did not even have the keys to unlock the
room where they kept the mugshot books. They never caught the guy.

At the time I started to follow said burgler on my pedal bike but
I did not want him to see me as if he got caught he would know it
was me that called the cops and he would also know where I live
after calling to my door and me answering/talking to him! With the
****ty justice system he probably would have got a suspended sentence
and probably be very peeved at me!!! I remember the adrenaline kicking in
when I was following him and thinking this my knees started to wobble a bit
with the rush of it. Eventually he hopped a fence and disappeared and I could
not follow.

All in all it did not inspire me with a whole lot of convidence.
Another time I rang them after a buch of Knackers were scopeing out
houses pretending to clean gutters but really going into all the houses
without cars and going round their backs and up ladders checking out
there alarms. Cops rang again this time they arrived and they searched
the van of the knackers did not find anything and had to let them go!
Within an hour their van was back again!! the ceecky feck*rs.

~B

Mr. Gun

All for having safes and alarms etc.. but if the crooks know you have serious firearms and want them they'll just call to the door during the day when you are home (keys) and the alarm will be deactivated/or someone there to deactivate it. If there is two or three of them they'll just knock the sh*te out of you until you give them what they want. It's at this time you'll wish you hadn't locked you gun, bolt and ammo in three seperate safes.

Vegeta

rrpc wrote:

It's your responsibility to look at your security and properly assess how long it's going to take to breach it. The longer the better. It's not about the Garda response time, but the prospective burglars view on that response time.

This I completely agree with and it is why I don't put much faith in a monitored alarm.

All you have to do is read bullets post to know why I don't put faith in them

Vegeta

Mr. Gun wrote:

All for having safes and alarms etc.. but if the crooks know you have serious firearms and want them they'll just call to the door during the day when you are home (keys) and the alarm will be deactivated/or someone there to deactivate it. If there is two or three of them they'll just knock the sh*te out of you until you give them what they want. It's at this time you'll wish you hadn't locked you gun, bolt and ammo in three seperate safes.

Very valid point

sidneyreilly

Its all about delays and hassle really. A casual burgler will not likely be equiped to open a good safe or remove it from a wall if properly secured. If they have come with the sole intention of getting into your safes then its really slowing them down and making it a less easy option then selling on stolen electrical items etc.. and buying a blackmarket firearm.

Clare gunner

Vegeta wrote:

This I completely agree with and it is why I don't put much faith in a monitored alarm.

All you have to do is read bullets post to know why I don't put faith in them

Second that! Bullets description sounds like another Keystone Cop movie script:rolleyes:
Lets face it ,if we have to build security measures to withstand 4 1/2 hours of assault.We might as well all move into bunkers.We can only come halfway,the State who has the monopoly on force,has to keep it's side of the bargin too. 4 hours response and the police not knowing their beat is just not good enough!
Grauenteed response with armed tecs,ERU etc ,try this as one lad did in the UK.
Fellow noticed some likely lads breaking into his garage,rings the police,who say they cant send anyone around as the manpower is down.Bloke rings the police back ten mins later to say not to worry he sorted the problem out himself by shooting the lot of them.15 mins later there is six cop cars full of armed police,top brass,SO19,and a chopper on the way.The said burglars are arrested,and terrified out of their wits by the overwhelming force applied to their pilfering.The very unhappy Super takes the householder to task,asking why he said he shot these lads and he hadnt.The householder says,well you said you hadnt any manpower to answer my call.....? Think we will have to try that one day here.:rolleyes:
As for recording firearm crime,it is all lumped together as firearms crime.No distinction is made wether these were illegally imported or held firearms,or wether they were stolen ligit firearms.As stealing a legally held firearm,makes it in the eyes of the law a illegally held firearm.Thuss putting it in the firearms category of crime,rather than stolen goods and property.

Ditto for those imatation firearms,they shouldnt even have been mentioned as such as they were Airsoft,which nowadays are not classified as firearms at all.[exceptions being over certain velocity etc]. It was a good newsworthy item,firearms and related always are.It bleeds, it leads, is an old journalistic axiom.Dont expect facts like that these were not real guns,etc.It is sensation that sells papers,not truth.

We had a story down here last week in Limerick where a 13KEuro "sniper rifle" was found in a criminals house.Said "sniper rifle"as described in court by the Garda tech branch was in fact ;A 22 upper cal Remington bolt action in a custom stock[blue stippled plastic] with what looked like a fluted barrel tand possibly threaded for a silencer. Harris bi pod and a Nikon scope valued at three THOUSAND euro by the Gardai.[Limerick leader Wed edition20June 2007]
When I first saw the headline I thought it was a Barret light 50 somone had been nicked with.:eek:
Now ,I dunno about you but I have never seen a 13K Remington sniper rifle.The USMC M240[?] costs about 6 thousand dollars to buy on the open market with all the bits,inc a damn good tac scope.
So you have got to ask yourself, are the Gardai really THAT bad at modern firearms ID, especially the tech branch? Or are they now playing with the media a more sinister game to scare the sheeple more and more into accepting nastier gun laws???
Then we had the "concerned Gardai" lamenting the fact that criminals may be booking stag weekends to the East block to get training on high power weaponary.Like the 7.62 pistol the most powerful handgun caliber in the world:eek: Or so sayth the Limerick Independant of June 20th 07.
Good if they do.Their aim as Limerick hitmen is appaling.More likely to hit anyone and everything than their target.:rolleyes:

Safes are fine until the yank them off the wall.I would consider the option of a decoy safe.Gun safe full of scrap iron pipes and a propane cylinder for a surprise if they decide to consaw it open somwhere else.And my guns broken down and hidden around the house,under floorboards,up in the rafters,in behind fake walls etc.Everyone has the potential to make hidey holes in any house.

Rew

One bad story from Bullets and the whole force is written off?

I know alot more good then bad but it dosnt matter because if you have 1 bad experince with anything it takes about 10 good experinces to out way that one bad one. Thats a fairly well established stat.

As for Clare Gunner's little essay, he dosnt so much have a chip on his shoulder as a whole spud farm!!

Vegeta

Rew wrote:

One bad story from Bullets and the whole force is written off?

Do you really think we have based our opinions on the gardai from bullets post? :rolleyes:

Sparks

Looking at the OP's post, that seems to be the story off the front page of the Metro this morning, which basicly said that the lot in the auction were toy guns. From how the Garda statements read, they were selling off confiscated airsoft toys and someone started complaining that they looked too much like real firearms, they had quotes from someone whose post office was held up using an imitation firearm to back up that point.

Sounds like a lot of fuss over nothing by people who don't know the law, IMHO.

bullets

Clare gunner wrote:

A 22 upper cal Remington bolt action in a custom stock[blue stippled plastic] with what looked like a fluted barrel tand possibly threaded for a silencer. Harris bi pod and a Nikon scope valued at three THOUSAND euro by the

I heard over 50 Houses were raided in Limerick and heard
a mention of the "high powered rifle" which I though was really
unusual for something criminals would have. Any links/pics ?

~B

freddieot

I take the point that a burglar could just pull all three safes off the wall. I had already considered this but as some have already said it is a lot about slowing these guys down. The main safe weighs 130k ( not counting the firearms) and it took three of us to get it into the house and into position. Taking it away when full of guns is not really an option for most burglars. It would have to be broken into on site which rules out Mr. Druggie or any casual opportunist who wants quick cash, jewellery and other valuables.

The second safe weighs 65 kg approx with the ammo so again unless the incredible hulk raids my house, it must be opened on site. The third safe is of the Atlantic homecare variety but is securely bolted in etc. and I've built furniture around all of them just to be awkward.

I put this stuff in so I know it can be taken out if there is enough time and obviously no thief will be gentle on the furnishings. However it is all about time, slowing them down, making it just too much trouble for the possible gain. (Remember, the safe could also be empty for all they know !)

I agree that if someone comes to the door with a gun or whatever and demands the lot I would have little choice but to hand it all over. I think everyone would realise this including my insurance company and the cops. The same applies to Firearms Dealers by the way and they are a far better target than I will ever be. I suspect that's one of the 'real' reasons why the DOJ are making it hard for dealers to keep stocks of pistols.

On the other point of response times. I have had good experiences so can only comment on them. In our last house we had an attempted burglary and the cops arrived about 10 minutes after we rang them.

About three weeks ago our alarm went off when I was away so the monitoring company rang me straight away (even before the neighbours). As I had reason to be suspicious, I rang the local cops and explained the situation. My neighbour said they arrived about 8 minutes later. Maybe they just were not busy or maybe it was because they knew that I split the firearms, ammo and magazines etc. over 3 different safes so that if they attended without delay it would be virtually impossible for anyone to have put together a working firearm. It was a false alarm thankfully but it convinced me that reasonable security precautions are worthwhile.

I agree that we should not have to live in fortresses and that overall the State have an obligation to prevent crime in the first place and respond quickly to serious incidents. My point is that we all need to examine whether we are doing enough to limit the risk which is associated with having firearms at home and reduce that percentage od 0.3% mentioned at the start of the thread.

I know people who still keep rifles in bedroom wardbrobes and others that have invested in complicated CCTV \ Recording equipment so it's all relative, depends on where you live, whether house is frequently unoccupied and other factors that influence the risk. As I already said there is no such thing as total security.

Degsy

bullets wrote:

I heard over 50 Houses were raided in Limerick and heard
a mention of the "high powered rifle" which I though was really
unusual for something criminals would have. Any links/pics ?

~B

The media will describe pretty much any rifle as "high powered",especially if it has a scope attached.Chances are it was a .22 that the criminals couldnt figure out what to do with.

rrpc

Mr. Gun wrote:

All for having safes and alarms etc.. but if the crooks know you have serious firearms and want them they'll just call to the door during the day when you are home (keys) and the alarm will be deactivated/or someone there to deactivate it. If there is two or three of them they'll just knock the sh*te out of you until you give them what they want. It's at this time you'll wish you hadn't locked you gun, bolt and ammo in three seperate safes.

And that's why I have two panic buttons, and I'd let them walk away with the guns and not tell them the actions were missing.

And they won't walk away with my safe seeing as it's three tonnes of concrete and steel

Clare gunner

Rew wrote:

One bad story from Bullets and the whole force is written off?

I know alot more good then bad but it dosnt matter because if you have 1 bad experince with anything it takes about 10 good experinces to out way that one bad one. Thats a fairly well established stat.

As for Clare Gunner's little essay, he dosnt so much have a chip on his shoulder as a whole spud farm!!

Well, considering that my opinion is based on not one incident but on a culmative watch of the Gardai handling firearms issues over the last six months up to the last decade.Remember the amnesty firearms out in the rubbish?Not to mind everyone moaning here about the general lackadasical to arbitary way ligit shooters are treated here in Ireland would kind of justify my "chip on the shoulder"position
How anyone can stand up in a court of law and claim a average grade rifle is worth over 13k and get away with it,when there is plentiful resources on pricing such aweapon on the internet and litature,smacks of gross incompetance,not to mind putting the States case in serious jeporday.
Bullets,
Story was in the leader wed last week,nope they dont have a link.I'll see if I can get acopy and post it.
Degsy
It is deffo a big cal rifle in the 22 cal range.Frnt page of the paper.Story is the accused had it for self defence,because of his involvement in the family feuds.

Clare gunner

Anyone who has a Remmy now is a wealthy person:)

Mr. Gun

rrpc wrote:

And that's why I have two panic buttons, and I'd let them walk away with the guns and not tell them the actions were missing.

And they won't walk away with my safe seeing as it's three tonnes of concrete and steel

Me too .... to keep the Super happy, but my overall point is that security, even at Government level is just an illusion. You can have everything from panic buttons to infra red cameras it doesn't matter. A bit of planning and surveilance and to a greater extent balls goes a long, long way. Best thing to invest a few quid in is a well trained dog or two, still comes under the illusion heading but tends to be quite effective.

IMO the best security is to be the grey man. Don't talk about shooting/guns etc.. with your mates in the pub or have "I LOVE SHOOTING" stickers on your car. I regularly see pics of people at competitions using firearms and posing with them on certain web sites for all the world to see. It might be a bit over the top but I've lived beside the same people for 15 years and they still don't know my name and thats the way I like it.

Rovi

Clare gunner wrote:

Anyone who has a Remmy now is a wealthy person:)

That's so retarded it's beyond getting upset about, it's merely funny.
A pump-action and a bolt-action at the same time? Feckin' eejits :rolleyes:

Drop a '0' off those valuations and it's be getting more realistic, though I'd not be surprised if even that was an over-estimation.

Perhaps the €14,000 was what the 'poet' paid for it?
I wonder what my TRG-22 with NightForce scope would be worth to this discerning clientèle?

Sparks

Mr. Gun wrote:

IMO the best security is to be the grey man. Don't talk about shooting/guns etc.. with your mates in the pub or have "I LOVE SHOOTING" stickers on your car. I regularly see pics of people at competitions using firearms and posing with them on certain web sites for all the world to see. It might be a bit over the top but I've lived beside the same people for 15 years and they still don't know my name and thats the way I like it.

Yup, that's how people have thought for 30 years in Ireland.


It's also why draconian legislation and arbitary enforcement of same has been foisted on us during those 30 years. No public image = easy targets for "be seen to be doing something" legislation.

Our man in Havana

Limerick Leader wrote:

.....With a range of up to a mile

What sort of a rifle is it? My Remmy has a range of 1.5 miles. Must be worth a fortune.

rrpc

Mr. Gun wrote:

Me too .... to keep the Super happy, but my overall point is that security, even at Government level is just an illusion. You can have everything from panic buttons to infra red cameras it doesn't matter. A bit of planning and surveilance and to a greater extent balls goes a long, long way. Best thing to invest a few quid in is a well trained dog or two, still comes under the illusion heading but tends to be quite effective.

I think you're missing my pont. I've never said that security was foolproof or that it would completely frustrate a burglar. It's about time, the more you delay them the less chance they'll succeed.

l33t-krew

Vegeta wrote:

would they not just pull the safe off the wall and take all three safes?

i'm all for security and all but lets face it if someone knows there are guns in your house and wants to rob them they'll find a way.

Asked many times but does anyone know the response time of the gardai to a house registered with firearms in them?

and so yon thief who WANTS these guns has to spend longer.

And when you come in and caught him red handed he decidedes **** it and cracks your head open with his jemmy.

just stick it in a safe. A normal thief is in and out in 5 mins. A pro or someone determined is going to get it anyway. All you will be doing is frustrating him and prolonging the danger of putting 3 safes in.



I may not make a lot of sense but im tired ^^

WallysWorld

Put in a safe, speaking from experience, Ive had a firearm robbed and Im convinced that a safe would have been enough to deter what I reckon was a casual thief:mad:

Anyone here know what the garda procedure is for when I renew my licenses minus one rifle?:(

Our man in Havana

Did you not report he rifle stolen?